Sunday, May 28, 2017

Clarifications

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

My last post on the relationship between Jews and Catholics never said that Jews are automatically saved simply because they are a Jew.  It simply described the RELATIONSHIP between the Jews and Catholics; hence the TITLE.  Also, the Catechism quoted above does not mean that the Jewish people are automatically saved simply because they are a Jew. In the same way, a Catholic is also not saved simply because he/she is Catholic.

The Jewish people still follow the Old Covenant, which God never revoked while Christians follow the New Covenant.  For example, it was God who established circumcision (see Genesis 17:11). Man never established circumcision. 

Although the Jewish people follow the Old Covenant, they still must follow God's will to obtain eternal salvation.  Being a Jew will not earn them salvation.  After all, Christ said, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord's will enter the Kingdom of God, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven will enter the Kingdom of God. " When Jesus spoke those words, He was addressing the Jewish people.  Nevertheless, these same words also apply to us. Not every Catholic who says 'Lord, Lord's will enter God's Kingdom, but he who does the will of God the Father. The Jews are the Old Israel while Christians are the New Israel.  Both are the people of God.

30 comments:

  1. "The Jewish people still follow the Old Covenant."

    No, not all of them do, as has been explained before. Some Jews don't even believe in God. Therefore, the questions of "what must be believed" matter. and it is simply not enough to say that Jews have an alternate path to salvation.

    "they still must follow God's will to obtain eternal salvation"

    God's will is that ALL nations be baptized in the name of the Trinity, and all are to follow the commandments that jesus gave us. The Jews are no exception to this, which is why we hear Peter and the Apostles preaching to them, converting them and baptizing them.

    "The Jews are the Old Israel while Christians are the New Israel. "

    There is only one Israel. One faith, One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins etc. Anything else is heresy.

    Jesus came to fulfill the Old covenant, which brought us to the new covenant in Him. If you reject the new covenant, you are implicitly rejecting the old one.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:33 pm,

      Why do you only point to those particular Jews especially when the orthodox Jews disagree with them. This is no different when someone points out to those liberal Catholics who endorse women's ordination despite the fact that our Catholic Doctines are clear that women cannot be ordained into the priesthood.

      Jesus never rejected the Old Covenant. Fulfilling does not mean to reject. As a matter of fact, even the Apostle Paul had Timothy circumcised. By allowing Circumcision, St. Paul was not rejecting the New Covenant. He understood that God never revoked the Old Covenant. Jesus even said that he did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill it.

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    2. @Anon. 9:33 pm. Christians don't reject the New Covenant. But there are some people who call themselves Christians and reject Jesus as God.

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    3. Diana, could you please just quote one single instance in the Old Testament, where God loves the people?

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    4. Dear Diana, the new covenant is the fulfilment of the old one. The old covenant is completed by the new one. The promise of the Old covenant was Jesus, so anyone that denies or rejects Jesus, rejects the old covenant as well as the new. Those that accepted the new covenant became Christians - the true Israel. Those that rejected the new covanant in Jesus (ie the pharisees and the hard of heart) developed into modern Judaism. It doesn't make the modern Jews bad people, but it also means they have rejected the promises of the old covenant. God told the Hebrews he would be their God, and they would be his people - and he even came down to heaven to be God-with-us. But those that rejected him cannot be said to have kept to the old covenant, because they rejected God who made them the promises. Of course, like all of us, they can repent, convert and live in Christ, if they wish.

      "Why do you only point to those particular Jews especially when the orthodox Jews disagree with them."

      Because every time someone speaks about the "Jews", they conflate the two concepts - one, a tribe; and two - a people that follow a certain religion. The word "Jew" refers to both, and it is incumbent on us to be more careful with our language. IN no way can it be said that atheistic Jews (or "cultural" Jews) are able to have hope of salvation. So, be more specific. Which Jews "still follow the Old Covenant"? The ultra-orthodox? The liberals? What does a Jewish person need to believe in order to be following "God's will to obtain eternal salvation"?

      This is where it gets messy. You make some statement about the jewish people but you are never clear who you mean, and what they must believe. The Catholic Church on the other hand (except for a few radicals, like those that wrote that silly report) is very clear what must be believed, what Jesus asks of us, and where our hope of salvation lies.

      "The Jews are the Old Israel while Christians are the New Israel. Both are the people of God."

      Maybe you could say that "The FAITHFUL Jews are the Old Israel while FAITHFUL Christians are the New Israel."

      But then again, faithful Jews became Christians - like Our Lady, the Apostles, the Ratisbonne brothers (look them up) and many others.

      There is no sacrifice in modern Judaism, so there is no way that Jewish people can make a sufficient offering to God. Only in the Catholic Mass is an infinite offering made to the Infinite God, and coming up with reasons why Jewish people should not need to convert to Jesus is not helping anybody.

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    5. 1 kings 10:9 Praise be to the LORD your God, who has delighted in you and placed you on the throne of Israel. Because of the LORD's eternal love for Israel, he has made you king to maintain justice and righteousness.”

      I can see where you are going with this. You think that the God of the Old Testament (whom Christ prayed to) is not the same God as the New Testament. God loved Israel so much that He called Himself "the God of Israel" and He called Israel "His people."

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    6. Dear Anonymous at 1:45 pm,

      The Jews do not reject Jesus. They accepted him as a Jewish man and nothing more. They do not see him as God. Therefore, you cannot say they rejected Jesus.

      At the end of the world when Christ comes in all His glory, Christians will recognize Him. The Jews will also recognize Him because Christ said that those who see Him will also see the Father.

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    7. No, Diana, but the love of God is a scarce commodity in the Old Testament. All you could quote was a kingly prayer where a king is crowned. Why? Because God did not reveal Himself in the Old Testament as a loving God. The Old Testament is a partial revelation. Without Jesus, without the Son, without the New Testament the love of the Father is not known.

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    8. Diana, accepting Jesus means that you confess Him as the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity God and believe in His resurrection. Are you serious saying that accepting Jesus means acknowledging his Jewish origin and "nothing more"?

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    9. Dear Anonymous at 9:12 am,

      The problem I see is that you do not recognize God the Father in the Old Testament even when you say you have Jesus.

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    10. Dear Anonymous at 9:21 am,

      Where in the Bible does it say that accepting him means confessing he is the Son of God?

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    11. 1 John 4:13-16

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    12. Dear Anonymous at 9:52

      1 John 4:13-16 This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his spirit. Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world. Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. We have come to know and believe in the love God has for us.

      This verse is saying that those who testify that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him. That is all.

      Yet, do you not know that God has always remained with Israel and the only thing they needed to confess was their sins? He called them "His" people. The Catholic Church teaches that Israel is still His chosen people because God's calling is irrevocable. With that said, we are also His chosen people because we are the New Israel.

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    13. Diana, you are overriding 1 John 4.

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    14. Dear Anonymous at 1:26 pm,

      Actually, you are overriding the fact that God had always been with His chosen people because He called them to be His people, and God called Himself the "God of Israel."

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    15. So, the Jews don’t reject Jesus?
      What about this from the letter of Maimonides in 1172?

      “The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.
      Daniel had already alluded to him when he presaged the downfall of a wicked one and a heretic among the Jews who would endeavor to destroy the Law, claim prophecy for himself, make pretenses to miracles, and allege that he is the Messiah, as it is written, "Also the children of the impudent among thy people shall make bold to claim prophecy, but they shall fall." (Daniel 11:14)

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    16. Dear Anonymous at 3:56 pm,

      As you can clearly see from the letter of Maimonides in 1172, they did not deny the EXISTENCE of Jesus. As I have always said, it is the divinity of Jesus that they deny. They believe that Jesus exists as a brother Jew, but they do not believe He is God. Do you understand what I am saying?

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    17. Really, Diana? Believing in Jesus simply means to you that Jesus is a Jew?

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    18. I think from the point of view of Judaism, Maimonides is absolutely right! Jesus committed the things Maimonides is listing:

      - annulment of precepts (think about the dietary laws)'
      - abolition of the commandments (beyond the 10),
      - violation of prohibitions (healing on the Sabbath day).

      As for a Jew, these things are 100% in contradiction to the Torah. But Jesus still did not erase any comma from the Law. Why? Because He was a good Jew, an elect by God who shared in the irrevocable promise. He was even circumcised. God's mercy opened up the eyes of many Jews that the Law is too restrictive. These Jews became the first Christians, the followers of Christ.

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    19. Dear Anonymous at 5:11 pm.

      Are you saying that he is not a Jew? When Catholics learn that their Founder is a Jew and that Christianity came from Judaism, then they will learn to stop discriminating against the Jews and making anti-Semitic remarks for it is unchristian. After all, the Old Covenant is a stepping stone to the New Covenant.

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    20. Did you know, when you start saying who can and who can't enter the kingdom you open up the possibility of people believing that they are part of the group who can't? How do you think that may make some people feel? Despair? Hopeless? I certainly did at one point.... Is it right for you to do that to people? To take away their hope with some "innocent" conversation about who can and cannot be saved?

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    21. Dear Anon at 6:34 pm
      Maybe you misunderstood or maybe you didn't bother to read the full post. But I believe Diana said all can be saved and all can be condemned. She was not specifically condemning anyone. She was simply saying anyone who follows the will of God can be saved, be it Jew or Christian.

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    22. anon at 5:22 pm
      I think Christ did not break the law or contradict in anyway the Torah. The Rabbi asks Christ what is the law and the prophets. Christ says it is summarized into 2. To love God above all things and your neighbor. He points out that all the laws the Jews had where meant to fulfill these 2 essential laws. Yet the pharisees of the time where using the law to criminalize others not to love or show mercy thereby ignoring the central point of the law.
      This is why when he violates the sabbath he responds with a question. “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”
      He is trying to say that the institution of the law by God is meant for the good of men. Yet if the law is being used to do evil then it contradicts the law which is what the Pharisees where doing. The Pharisees where fulfilling the law only outwardly but in there hearts they where doing everything to be self-righteous and to feel better than others. What is the point of the law if you do not love or show mercy. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." "If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."
      Christ was telling the Pharisees that they where not fulfilling the law because they did not fulfill the most important law where all these other small laws the Jews had come from. LOVE, caritas.
      The 10 commandments are laws on how to love God and how to love your neighbor. Christ shows this ultimate love by giving his life to save his enemies. All to love and do the will of his father fully fulfilling the 10 commandments.

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    23. The love of God is creation. He is present in everything created. Loving the creation is loving God. You have to love the created world crafted by God's hands with everything in it. God created it for us. Everything is good in the created world. God saw it that it was good. So He rested on the seventh day.

      Loving the creation is loving God. God gave it its order. The order of the creating things is the Law. God gave us the Law as His love. You have to love the Law to love God. Every comma of it. You cannot lose any comma of the Law because it is the love of God. It is the order of the creation given by God. Changing the world means changing the creation. You cannot change any comma of it, because the order of the world is the love of God.

      You have to love tour neighbor. Who is your neighbor? You neighbor is everybody. You have to love everybody. Not loving your neighbor is not not loving God. You have to have mercy. Mercy is from God. Only God can have mercy. Only God can have mercy on the enemies of God. You cannot. The wage of sin is death. you have to kill the enemies of God. You cannot have mercy for them. Only God can have mercy on the enemies of God.

      But you have to love your neighbor. Your enemy is your neighbor. You have to love your enemy because your neighbor is the creation of God. You have to have mercy toward your enemy. You have to love and give your life for your enemy. You have to give your life to every single enemy. Except to the enemy of God.

      Christ has no enemy. He is king. He is king of all creation. He maintains the order of the world as given by God. The order of the world is love. The order of the world is the Law. The Law is love and love is the Law. Christ maintains love in the world. He maintains the Law.

      "My soul is consumed with longing
      for your laws at all times."
      "I have chosen the way of faithfulness;
      I have set my heart on your laws."

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    24. 4:42am:

      Thank you for correcting me.

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    25. OMG, anon 12:12 pm, you state: "Only God can have mercy on the enemies of God. You cannot. The wage of sin is death. You have to kill the enemies of God."

      Really?! Who are you, my friend? I have never heard anything like that from a true follower of Christ!

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    26. "Everything is good in the created world"

      The devil and the fallen angels are part of the created world you love them and think they are good too?

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  2. Hi Diana, these tiny letters are a little hard to read...

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:53 pm,

      I apologized. I made the font larger so I hope you are able to read it.

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  3. grow up in faithJune 1, 2017 at 11:52 AM

    Dear anon at 5:26, you seem to be surprised but whose fault is that? Is it not yours?

    Anon at 12:12 gave a pretty good summary of the beliefs about God and His mercy that is unequivocally shared by both Judaism and Christianity. It is a very strong common foundation that unified the believers of the One God! That is why Judaism is a genuine pre-Christian religion and Christianity is definitely a post-Judaic one! We belong to each other. It is not said by NCW members only, it is the core teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Creation was a loving act of God that gave us everything we have. The order of creation is, in fact, governed by the Law. God loved men so much that He gave us the Law. Even if we only keep the Ten Commandments, we are aware of the 613, or so, instructions that God prescribed for all believer. This means we cannot ignore the other six hundred precepts, we keep the Ten in the spirit of the other six hundred, as well. The Law is one! It cannot be broken and dissected into a part that you follow and acknowledge and into another part that you don't. The Law is one the same way as God is One. The Law is also irrevocable and whatever is irrevocable must be on your heart!

    Now you see from where the mercy of God is coming from. Yes, you must have mercy on your personal enemy but not on the enemies of God! The prophet Elijah executed 300 priests of Baal at the river because they were the enemies of God. The sons of Amalek are the enemies of God. So don't you kill them? On the contrary, yes you do! It is in the Law the sons of Amalek must be extinguished from the face of the earth. Our Lord Jesus also drove out the merchants from the Temple. Merchants are not serving God. You cannot serve both God and Mammon!

    Sometimes we feel that the commandments of our God are harsh and we try to go around. But you cannot. The history of Israel, that is the history of the believers of the One God, is the prime example of what happens if you want to go around God. All calamities are coming on you because of your avoidance of laying down your life for God's will. It is God's will that you lay down your life for you enemies, as Jesus Christ did. You have to do this every day. Are you shying off from the challenge?

    What I would like to change is your perception. As anon 12:12 said the wage of sin is death. Jesus Christ was a Jew who recognized the suffering of his people and decided to save them. As a byproduct, we had also been saved. Is this not wonderful? If God chooses you to act according to His will, would you step back and hide your face in fear? Then why did Jesus Christ save you? You cannot be a coward. Therefore, you have act, according to the will of God who rewards those who acknowledge Him and punishes those who don't. Be a Jew or a Christian, you can be chosen to execute God's punishment on those contemporary "Amalekites" who oppose Israel, oppose the people of believers, oppose the people of God who we are.

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