Wednesday, April 22, 2015
The Age Of The Neocats (Part II)
Why is there such opposition to the Neocatechumenate?
First of all, because there is opposition to all the movements from local bishops and clergy. This is nothing new: St Thomas Aquinas had to defend the Dominicans against the local clergy in Paris; after the Council of Trent bishops whose hearts were not in real reform and renewal did not want the Jesuits in their dioceses.
G K Chesterton noted that whenever there has "appeared, in Catholic history, a new and promising experiment, bolder or broader, more enlightened than existing routine, that movement" was always "upheld" by the papacy, while it was "naturally more or less negatively resisted by the bishops... [and] the clergy... Official oligarchies of that sort generally do resist reform."
Secondly, the Neocatechumenate is especially controversial because it operates within rather than externally to parishes. The main bone of contention is the Saturday evening Mass celebrated for a community or communities.
However, we already have children's and family Masses in parishes from which adults and single people are not excluded, nor have parishioners ever been excluded from Neocatechumenal Eucharists, contrary to popular rumour.
The statutes specifically state that these Eucharists are "part of the ordinary liturgical pastoral work of the parish and are open also to other faithful"; the same would be true of a Tridentine Mass.
They recognise that the Neocats are entitled to have a Mass in their own style, with a number of liturgical innovations (others that were originally permitted on an experimental basis have been disallowed), but it is open to all parishioners, and is no more divisive than a folk or Latin or Tridentine Mass is in a parish.
Anyway, Pope Benedict has firmly rejected the charge of divisiveness as the decisive criterion: "Faith remains a sword and may demand conflict for the sake of truth and love," he has said. And he also has condemned that "attitude of intellectual superiority that immediately brands the zeal of those seized by the Holy Spirit and their uninhibited faith with the anathema of fundamentalism", a charge regularly levelled at members of the Neocatechumenate.
At the time of the Council of Trent what the Church needed above all was a body of highly trained clergy: the charism of St Ignatius Loyola was provided by the Holy Spirit. In this post-conciliar time the greatest need is for baptised Catholics who are not merely sacramentalised but deeply formed in the faith: the Holy Spirit has given the Church the Neocatechumenate.
I believe that June 13, 2008, the day its statutes were formally approved, will be recognised as a significant date in the history of the Church.
Fr Ian Ker teaches theology at Oxford and is a parish priest
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=28614
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part 1
ReplyDeleteADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE COMMUNITY OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY
Paul VI Hall
Friday, 20 January 2012
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Again this year I have the joy of being able to meet and share with you this moment of sending out for the mission. I extend a special greeting to Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández and Fr Mario Pezzi, and an affectionate greeting to you all: priests, seminarians, families, formators and members of the Neocatechumenal Way. Your presence today is a visible testimony of your joyful commitment to live the faith in communion with the whole Church and with the Successor of Peter, and to be courageous heralds of the Gospel.
In the passage from St Matthew which we have heard, the Apostles receive a precise mandate from Jesus: “go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19). Initially they had doubted, in their hearts there was still uncertainty, amazement at the event of the Resurrection. And it is Jesus himself, the Risen One — the Evangelist stresses — who comes close to them, makes them feel his presence, sends them out to teach all that he has communicated to them, giving them the certitude that accompanies every herald of Christ: “And lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20). They are words that resonate loudly in your heart. You have sung Resurrexit, which expresses faith in the Living One, in the One who, in a supreme act of love, triumphed over sin and death and gives to human beings, to us, the warmth of God’s love, the hope of being saved, a future of eternity.
In these decades of the Way’s life one of your firm commitments has been to proclaim the Risen Christ, to respond to his words with generosity, often giving up personal and material securities, even leaving your own countries, facing new and not always easy situations. Bringing Christ to people and bringing people to Christ: it is this that enlivens every evangelizing action. You do it in a way that helps those who have already received Baptism to rediscover the beauty of the life of faith, the joy of being Christian. “Following Christ” demands the personal adventure of the quest for him, going with him, but always also entails emerging from the closure of the self, breaking out of the individualism that all too often characterizes the society of our time, to replace selfishness with the community of the new person in Jesus Christ. And this happens in a profound personal relationship with him, in listening to his word, in taking the way he has pointed out to us, but it also happens inseparably in believing with his Church, with the saints in whom the true face of the Bride of Christ makes itself known ever anew.
It is a commitment — as we know — that is not always easy. Sometimes you are present in places where a first proclamation of the Gospel is necessary, the missio ad gentes; often, instead, in areas which although they have known Christ have grown indifferent to faith: secularism has eclipsed the sense of God there and has clouded the Christian values. Here, may your commitment and your witness be like the leaven which, with patience, respecting the times, with a sensus Ecclesiae, causes the whole mass to rise. The Church has recognized in the Way a special gift which the Holy Spirit has given to our times and the approval of the Statues and of the “Catechetical Directory” are a sign of it. I encourage you to offer your original contribution to the cause of the Gospel. Always seek in your valuable work to be in profound communion with the Apostolic See and with the Pastors of the particular Churches, in which you are inserted. The unity and harmony of the Ecclesial Body are an important witness to Christ and to his Gospel in the world in which we live.
part 2
ReplyDeleteADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE COMMUNITY OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY
Paul VI Hall
Friday, 20 January 2012
Dear families, the Church thanks you; she needs you for the New Evangelization. The family is an important cell for the ecclesial community, where people are trained in human and Christian life. With great joy I see your sons and daughters, so many children who look to you, dear parents, to your example. About a hundred families are about to leave for 12 Missions ad gentes. I invite you not to be afraid: those who bring the Gospel are never alone. I greet with affection the priests and seminarians: love Christ and the Church, communicate the joy of having encountered him and the beauty of having given him everything. I also greet the itinerants, those in charge and all the communities of the Way. Continue to be generous with the Lord: he will not let you lack his comfort!
The Decree approving the celebrations listed in the “Catechetical Directory of the Neocatechumenal Way” has just been read. They are not strictly speaking liturgical but are part of the itinerary of growth in faith. It is another factor which shows you that the Church accompanies you with attention in a patient discernment which understands your richness but also looks at the communion and harmony of the whole Corpus Ecclesiae.
This fact affords me the opportunity for a brief thought on the value of the Liturgy. The Second Vatican Council defined it as the exercise of the priestly office of Christ and the work of his body which is the Church (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 7). At first sight this might appear strange, because the work of Christ designates the historical redemptive actions of Christ, his Passion, death and Resurrection. In what sense, then, is the Liturgy a work of Christ? The Passion, death and Resurrection of Jesus are not only historical events. They reach and penetrate history but transcend it and remain ever present in Christ’s Heart. In the Church’s liturgical action there is the active presence of the Risen Christ which makes the Paschal Mystery itself present and effective for us today, for our salvation. By this act of the gift of himself which is ever present in his Heart we are drawn and enabled to participate in this presence of the Paschal Mystery. This work of the Lord Jesus, which is the true content of the Liturgy, entering into the presence of the Paschal Mystery, is also a work of the Church which, since she is his Body, is a single subject with Christ — Christus totus caput et corpus — St Augustine says. In the celebration of the sacraments Christ immerses us in the Paschal Mystery to make us pass from death to life, from sin to new existence in Christ.
part 3
ReplyDeleteADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE COMMUNITY OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY
Paul VI Hall
Friday, 20 January 2012
This applies very specially to the celebration of the Eucharist, which, as the culmination of Christian life, is also the hinge of its rediscovery, for which the Neocatechumenate strives. As your Statute state, “the Eucharist is essential to the Neocatechumenate, since this is a post-baptismal catechumenate lived in small communities” (art. 13 § 1). Precisely to encourage people who have drifted away from the Church or have not received an appropriate formation to draw close to the riches of sacrament life, the Neocatechumens may celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in the small community, after the first Vespers of Sunday, according to the dispositions of the diocesan bishop (cf. Statute, art. 13 § 2). However, every Eucharistic celebration is an action of the one Christ together with his one Church and is therefore essentially open to all who belong to his Church. This public character of the Blessed Eucharist is expressed in the fact that every celebration of Holy Mass is ultimately directed by the bishop as a member of the Episcopal College, responsible for a specific local Church (cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 26). It is the task of the celebration in the small communities — regulated by the liturgical books that must be faithfully followed, with the details approved in the Statue of the Way — to help all who follow the Neocatechumenal itinerary to perceive the grace of being inserted in the saving mystery of Christ which makes possible a Christian witness that can assume radical features. At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented (cf. Statute, art. 6). Nevertheless in this process it is also important not to be separate from the parish community, precisely in the celebration of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all, where the Lord embraces us in the different states of our spiritual maturity and unites us in the one bread that makes us one body (cf. 1 Cor 10:16f.).
Courage! The Lord does not fail to accompany you and I too assure you of my prayers and thank you for your many signs of closeness. I ask you also to remember me in your prayers. May the Blessed Virgin Mary help you with her maternal gaze and may my Apostolic Blessing, which I extend to all the members of the Way, sustain you. Many thanks!
part 1
ReplyDeletePope Francis received in audience on Friday (March 6th) members of the Catholic missionary movement, the Neocatechumenal Way, and thanked them for the great benefit they bring to the Church.
Dear brothers and sisters,
Peter's task is to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith. So you too have wanted with this gesture to ask the Successor of Peter to confirm your call, to support your mission, to bless your charism. And I want to confirm your call, support your mission and bless your charism. I’m doing that not because I’ve been paid to: No! (laughs) I’m doing it because I want to. You will go forth in the name of Christ into the world to bring His Gospel: Christ will precede, Christ will accompany and Christ will fulfill the salvation of which you are bearers!
Together with you I greet all the Cardinals and Bishops who accompany you today and who in their dioceses support your mission. In particular I greet the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández, with Father Mario Pezzi: I also would like to express my appreciation and my encouragement for the great benefit they bring to the Church through the Way. I always say that the Neocatechumenal Way does great good in the Church.
As Kiko said, our meeting today is a missionary commissioning, in obedience to what Christ asked us: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. And I am particularly glad that this mission is carried out thanks to Christian families, united in a community, who have the mission to give witness to our faith that attract people to the beauty of the Gospel, in the words of Christ: “This is how all will know that you are my disciples"(cf. Jn 13:34), and "be one and the world may believe" (cf. Jn 17:21). These communities, called by the Bishops, are formed by a priest and four or five families, with children including grown-up ones, and are a "missio ad gentes", with a mandate to evangelize non-Christians. Non-Christians who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ and the many non-Christians who’ve forgotten who Jesus Christ was, who is Jesus Christ: baptized non-Christians but who have forgotten their faith because of secularization, worldliness and many other things. Re-awaken that faith! So, even before words, it is your witness of life that manifests the heart of Christ's revelation: that God loves man to the point of laying down His life for us and that he was raised by the Father to give us the grace to give our lives for others. Today’s world badly needs this great message. How much solitude, how much suffering, how much distance from God in the many peripheries of Europe and America, and in many cities of Asia! Today, in every latitude, humanity greatly needs to hear that God loves us and that love is possible! These Christian communities, thanks to you missionary families, have the essential task of making this message visible. And what is this message? “Christ is risen, Christ lives. Christ lives amongst us””
Part 2
ReplyDeletePope Francis received in audience on Friday (March 6th) members of the Catholic missionary movement, the Neocatechumenal Way, and thanked them for the great benefit they bring to the Church.
You have received the strength to leave everything behind and set off for distant lands through a process of Christian initiation, experienced and lived in small communities, where you have rediscovered the immense riches of your Baptism. This is the Neocatechumenal Way, a true gift of Providence to the Church of our time, as my predecessors have already stated; especially St. John Paul II when he said: "I recognize the Neocatechumenal Way as an itinerary of Catholic formation, valid for society and for our times" (Epist. Whenever, August 30, 1990: AAS 82 [1990], 1515). The Way is based on the three dimensions of the Church which are the Word, Liturgy and Community. So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. It is a great consolation to see all of this, because it confirms that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church, even today, and that He meets the needs of modern man.
On several occasions I have insisted that the Church has to move from a pastoral ministry of mere conservation to a decidedly missionary pastoral ministry (cf. ibid., N. Evangelii gaudium, 15). How often, within the Church, do we keep Jesus inside and don’t let him out. …. How often! This is the most important thing to do if we do not want the waters to stagnate within the Church. For years now the Way has been undertaking these missio ad gentes among non-Christians, for an implantatio Ecclesiae, a new presence of the Church, where the Church does not exist or is no longer able to reach people. "How much joy you give us with your presence and your activity!" - said Blessed Pope Paul VI during the very first audience with you (May 8, 1974: Teachings of Pope Paul VI, XII [1974], 407). I also make these words my own and encourage you to move forward, entrusting you to the Blessed Virgin Mary who inspired the Neocatechumenal Way. May she intercede for you with her divine Son.
My dearly beloved, may the Lord accompany you. Go forth, with my Blessing
Neocatechumenal Way
ReplyDeleteThe Neo-catechumenal Way is an instrument of service to the Bishop for the rediscovery of the Christian Initiation of baptized adults. Among these, the following may be identified:
Those who have drifted away from the Church.
Those who have not been sufficiently evangelized and catechized.
Those who desire to deepen and mature their faith.
Those who have come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the Catholic Church.
The Neo-catechumenal Way seeks to foster in its recipients a mature sense of belonging to the parish, promoting a relationship of profound communion and collaboration with all the faithful and with the other elements of the parish community.
Within the parish, the Neocatechumenate is lived in small group communities modeled after the Holy Family of Nazareth, where Jesus became an adult, growing in “wisdom, age and grace.” In this community the neocatechumens become adults in faith, growing in humility, simplicity and praise, and in submission to the Church.
Attending Sunday Mass during the Saturday evening vigil is one of the ways members of the Neocatechumenal Way practice their charism.
ReplyDelete“It’s a way to keep youth and others with the Lord and not at parties on Saturday night,” said Francisco Tobon of Mother of Christ Church in Miami, a member of the community for the past 24 years. “On Sunday, families get together for devotion.”
“The preaching was founded on what is called the tripod: Word of God-Liturgy-Community, that seeks to lead people to fraternal communion and mature faith,” said Tobon.
Arguello, Hernandez and Father Mario Pezzi, of the Archdiocese of Rome, form “the international responsible team of The Way”, the Neocatechumenal leadership. Statutes describe the nature of The Way and regulate its charism and specific tasks within the Church.
The Neocatechumenal Way emerged as a grass-root offspring of the renewal of the Second Vatican Council. The Way is implemented in small, parish-based communities of between 20 and 50 people. There are about 40,000 communities in the world, with an estimated one million members.
“Italy and Spain have the most number of communities,” said Tobon.
Some liturgical concessions have been granted to the Neocatechumenal Way, including: moving the Rite of Peace to before the consecration, receiving Communion with unleavened bread rather than hosts, and receiving Communion while standing in place rather than going up to the priest or eucharistic minister.
The Neocatechumenal Way is deeply committed to the “New Evangelization” called for by Pope John Paul II. The Way also runs 75 “Redemptoris Mater” diocesan missionary seminaries around the world and is responsible for hundreds of “Families in Mission” worldwide.
“There are 36 communities in Florida in 13 different parishes,” said Tobon. “Those at the retreat are the leaders of the communities that came from the Archdiocese of Miami, the dioceses of Orlando and Venice. In the Miami Archdiocese there are communities at Mother of Christ, St. Joachim, Our Lady of Lourdes, St. James, St. Jerome, St. Vincent and San Lazaro.”
Members of the Neocatechumenal Way in Florida gave Archbishop Thomas Wenski a silver cross, a symbol of the mission entrusted to them.
“To be a Christian, to follow Jesus along his Way, is not a burden but a gift, and to make him known to others is a joy,” the archbishop said in his homily.
Following Mass, Stefano Benigni, leader of the Neocatechumenal Way in Florida and a member of the Miami archdiocese’s Tribunal staff, asked unmarried men to stand up if they felt the Church was calling them to the priesthood. Unmarried women interested in joining religious orders, and families interested in missionary work, also were asked to stand.
“The Catholic Church is a missionary Church,” Benigni said as he wrote down the names, ages and number of children among the married couples who stood up.
In the 40 years since its inception, the Neocatechumenal Way has given many fruits to the Church; many vocations to priesthood, religious life and many lasting conversions. Despite occasional criticism from priests, theologians and local bishops, both John Paul II Pope Benedict XVI have given the movement their blessing and fully approved their teaching and practices.
During an event in St. Peter’s Basilica to mark the 40th anniversary of the official founding of the Neocatechumenal Way, Pope Benedict addressed 25,000 members of the movement.
“How can we not bless the Lord for the spiritual fruits which, through the methodology of evangelization that you apply, have been harvested in these years,” he said. “How many fresh apostolic energies have risen up both among priests and among lay people. How many men and women and how many families that had grown distant from the ecclesial community or had abandoned the practice of Christian life, through the announcement of the kerygma and the itinerary of rediscovery of baptism, have been helped to find again the joy of the faith and the enthusiasm of the testimony of the Gospel.”
Hmm, what can be said about these posts?
ReplyDelete"nor have parishioners ever been excluded from Neocatechumenal Eucharists"
This is so obviously untrue - whether they are NCW or not- that everyone knows this statement is false.
There goes the credibility of Fr Ian Ker's assessment of the NCW....
Anonymous April 22, 2015 at 4:12 PM
ReplyDeleteYou have every right to question the credibility of people in the Way...over a million world-wide and growing; you can also question the credibility of Priest; Bishops and the Pope.
this is good as one has to search for truth.
I cannot speak for everyone in the NCW but only my own personal experience. Christ has risen....he has truly risen indeed.
this fact, this absolute truth for me.
It is a waste of time to question the credibility of men anonymous. Time is better spent searching for truth and finding it yourself.
JSB
Dear JSB, you say that it is good to "search for truth". Then let me ask you this - do you accept the notion that the teachings of the NCW contained in the thirteen books of the catechesis should be withheld from you and others? If the "search for truth" is good, and there is nothing to hide, why should these books be hidden?
DeleteI question this man's credibility in the same way I question "Diana's" credibility - and I would question yours as well - at least in relation to your knowledge of Kiko's aims and objectives, and of the truth of the Neocatechumenate. You cannot claim to have all the necessary information, because it is withheld from you. And yet there is this extremist tendency to treat the NCW as an infallible reality. This contradiction is a type of "anti-Gospel" which has not been adequately addressed to date by any of you
Dear Anonymous at 12;07 pm,
DeleteYou can get the first volume and look at what they are doing with the first volume. Those who oppose the Way are misinterpreting it in order to discredit the Way. The Catechetical Directory was already approved by the Vatican. If you have a problem with the Catechetical Directory, take it up with the Vatican because they approved it.
The Catechetical Directory was "approved for publication" by the Vatican. Therefore the "problem" I have is not with the Vatican, but with the NCW leaders who have refused to publish what the Vatican has approved for publication.
DeleteDiana, you have only confirmed my previous post that you think it is better to be kept in the dark and fed bulls***, rather than be informed. So much for "seeking the truth".
What is given in the 16 sessions of the NCW is not the one of the CD. You are still using the old catechesis...Prove me wrong..Show both catechesis.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:02 pm,
DeleteApparently, you are the one who was misinformed. Haven't you read the Catholic websites. It says that the Catechetical Directory was approved by Rome. It did not say that it was only "approve for publication." According to news report:
"Vatican City, Jan 17, 2011 / 04:06 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- On a day already meant to be celebratory for the Neocatechumenal Way, the Holy See gave the movement more reason to cheer as it announced its approval of the community's series of teachings."
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/neocatechumenal-way-receives-vatican-approval-for-its-teachings-instructions-from-pope/
I am sorry that you do not believe what the Vatican says but that is your problem not that of faithful obedient Catholics. If you choose to put yourself outside of communion all I can do is pray for you and feel sorry for you. It must take a lot of energy to be so full of hate and anger that you refuse to accept what the Vatican does accept. In as far as your accusations go about catechists using the old directories it is unfounded and purely speculative in nature. I say we do use the new because I use the new ones. Your word against mine. However remember that accusations based on no proof are a form of lying so I would advise you to do a serious examination of conscience and then go to confession as your anger hate and lies must weigh heavily on you. Especially since the lies cause scandal in the church. I would also advise that you sound your intentions. Why do you have such animosity?
DeleteNB
if there was anything new about the CD approved by the Vatican, how is that it never gets mentioned in the catechesis? How much was overhauled or revised or deducted? Show us both copies, NB.
DeleteMeet me and we can discuss or have a conversation.
why can't we see vol II and vol III
DeleteDear Diana at 1.47pm.
DeleteIf you had a copy of the first volume, published 2012, you could read for yourself the Decree by the Pontifical Council for the Laity which is printed at the start of that book:
"In the light of articles 131 and 133, § 1 and § 2 of the apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus on the Roman Curia and article 2, 20 of the State of the Neocatechumenal Way, the Pontifical Council for the Laity having duly consulted with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, approves the publication of the Catechetical Directory....of the Neocatechumenal Way"
Talk about ignorant.
Dear Anonymous at 4:42 pm,
DeleteThose who oppose the Way will look at every little detail to twist things around. All the news report already stated that the Catechetical Directory was approved by the Vatican. If they approve of its publication, it also means that they approve of everything in the book. The Church will not approve any publication that is heretical. After all, it was the Catholic Church who burned the Bibles of the Jehovah Witnesses many years ago because they changed the wording in the Holy Bible. The Catholic Church has a duty to preserve the Holy Bible and the teachings of the Church. It would go against the Church to approve the publication of heresies.
Show "US"? Will I be mobbed?what authority to judge me and mine does this jury of yours have? Yes I can show you both copies, but I ask again: what are your intentions? I will not throw away my pearls and all you have said up to now only shows that your intentions run contrary to mother church.
DeleteNB
Hey Anonymous, do not fool around. What are you doing here? We know you are Tim Rohr in disguise. You use different computers for signed and for anonymous comments. What a fake you are... but it is so obvious it is you! Oh, but what the heck? Just enjoy yourself even more here, please. Whenever you wish. You are in one helluva good company on this blog, aren't you. Lol!
DeleteDear Diana at 8.26. Changing your song and dance a little, are you? This is what you said just hours before:
Delete"Apparently, you are the one who was misinformed. Haven't you read the Catholic websites. It says that the Catechetical Directory was approved by Rome. It did not say that it was only "approve for publication." "
Evidently you had no idea of this decree and what was actually approved. So, now that you know it was approved for publication why should you continue to uphold that the books remain secret?
Dear Anonymous at 10:50 am,
DeleteI never changed my song and dance. I did say: " If they approve of its publication, it also means that they approve of everything in the book." Do you honestly think the Catholic Church would put a stamp of approval on the Koran, the Book of Mormons, or anything heretical even for publication???
"Do you honestly think the Catholic Church would put a stamp of approval on the Koran, the Book of Mormons, or anything heretical even for publication??? "
DeleteNo I don't.
I do honestly believe that when the Catholic Church approves something for publication, it expects that it is made available for the faithful. What sort of doctrinal guarantee can a secret caetchesis provide? There are no excuses. This Catechetical Directory ought to be made available, as is every other document of the Church pertaining to the teachings of the faithful. If the NCW claims it is the "light" why does it hide this in the darkness?
don't know where to ask this. but if I am married and I get my tubes tied because I have too many children already, is sex with my husband after that a sin?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:18 pm,
DeleteHaving sex with your husband is never a sin. Tying your tubes was the sin.
nice to see you don't judge Diana -.- .. Only God can say if it was a sin or not. Generally it isn't the best thing to do (and theoretically speaking it maybe considered a sin) but maybe in this person's circumstance it was the best thing to do according to her conscience, something you and I and anybody else except God will never know. So please choose your words correctly and don't condemn people.
Delete????
ReplyDeleteRE:AnonymousApril 23, 2015 at 12:09 PM
"I cannot speak for everyone ,,,,, Christ has risen....he has truly risen indeed.
this fact, this absolute truth for me."
Dear Anon., this is absolute truth for us non-neos too.
You said also:
"You have every right to question the credibility of people in the Way..,,
this is good as one has to search for truth." Here you are saying questioning the credibility of people is good when searching for the truth.
.Then,you said further:
"It is a waste of time to question the credibility of men anonymous. Time is better spent searching for truth and finding it yourself." And, here you are saying time spent searching for truth does not include questioning the credibility of men - that it's a waste of time.
????????
So, dear Anon., your entry to this blog is contradictory within itself.
However:
Is not the God-given gift of discernment the gift of realizing what is true and what is false? Beware of false prophets. This God-given gift was given Saint (padre) Pio when he called the NCW the new false prophets back in the 1960's. If it wasn't for those seeking the truth and correcting the people who were indoctrinating others with teachings that were not Catholic (this also includes the Popes), the NCW would still be catechizing errors, and still be celebrating their Masses without the prayers of the Creed, Lamb of God, etc.
You've discovered some truth. Keep searching for the whole truth.
Yes - "test everything, and hold to what is good". Not "test some things but believe that you have no right to test other things"
DeleteYour way is not may way anonymous,
DeleteYou quote Saint Pio.....do you have the published article to share?....part of an interview or speech where the Saint is quoted and on record.
It's funny how recent events; change the attacks on the way. Rome has just about discredited every argument raised by rohr, the chatholics of guam and the whites...
Now they are quoting Saints........unbelievable.....desperate.
cont....
DeleteI do not mind people quoting Saints.....the opposite....we can all be blessed by reflecting on the words of Saints as the Spirit of the Lord is speaking through them.
What is unacceptable is the quoting of Saints and scriptures based on "their human" interpretations and intellect.
Some try to interpret theology but are not specific was to what theology. Catholic theology; rohr theology; white theology or their individual theology.
The NCW comes.....they don't understand.....they attack. Rather than admit their ignorance...they attack.
So be it....let it come
And now it is a motorcade...
ReplyDeleteAmazing how blind the adversaries of the Archbishop are….
How is it that they refuse to see that those who are gaining most in this useless controversy are the enemies of the Church?
The gay lobby was the first to take advantage of this Church controversy to try to push into our stomach the Same Sex Unions.
And most probably soon there will be a bring into our island the Casino.
It is so sad that the members of the Church themselves have weakened the moral authority of Archbishop who was the main bastion against the proponents of same-sex union and gambling lobby.
…12For it is not an enemy who reproaches me, Then I could bear it; Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me, Then I could hide myself from him. 13But it is you, a man my equal, My companion and my familiar friend; 14We who had sweet fellowship together aalked in the house of God in the throng.… Psalm 55
Just to show this here, I repeat: I do think I offend Christ when I sin. This is a powerful motivation to keep me away from sin. Yes, we can hurt our Jesus when we turn against him by sinning. His sacrifice was redemption from the power of sins. Reality is not coming from doctrines. My reality is created in my community. When I belong to my community, I belong to Christ even more and this has nothing to do with doctrines. Those who dwell on doctrines only have no reality of Christ in their lives.
ReplyDeleteWhen will the ncw publish all their tomes? All 13 volumes so everyone can read them and stop asking so many questions that no one wants to answer. For example during the Easter vigil were in the statutes is it allowed to have the children ask questions during the mass? How about changing lyrics to Eucharistic prayers?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 4:34 am,
DeleteThe first volume has already been published, which you can purchase on your own. People like you still criticize the first volume; therefore, the other twelve will not make any difference.
I don't know who are the people who live “by the book”. It is so unimportant what is in one book or in the other! Is it not? Everything you’ll find is the exact same thing as the catechism of Catholic faith. Who can deny? If you want to deny, please, come forward and say so. All this hoopla is just a show to distract the ignorant. On the contrary, we do not live by the book, but by the Spirit! My community is not even familiar of everything what is in those books. Who cares? The founders of the Neocatechumenal Way are explaining their views on the official teaching of the church. Some explanations are more important, some other are not so. You have the right for your personal view on the teaching as long as it is in harmony with the official one! This all about it in a nutshell.
DeleteTherefore the Spirit of Him who came incarnate for us in human body is our lead and guide. We live by Him because He is the only true reality. It is our reality when walking in the same community of Him. For sure the Way is not for the bookworm and whatnot. Some people bookworm around thinking it is their privilege of being literate. No, it is not. Most people on earth are also literate. There is so much more than just what you read in a book.
By gosh, those few who prefer to be a bookworm rather than a brother or sister in Christ will never give up. They will go on and on and on with their ignorance as we see every day. They create a false reality “by the book” that shuts them out of real life and real people. It shuts them out of the truth and Spirit. If you don’t want discernment through experience of Christ's love then just go on your own and live your dry and boring life “by the book” forever. Nobody will condemn you. But if you want to experience real life and real people through Christ's love then find you community and prevail. It is so simple if you go for it. In the true democracy of God everybody has a chance.
The ncw will never publish all the tomes because we do not have to. Lucia's last secret is held to be real by all pope's and yet none has published it. Those who matter have read the directories and approved them. Your approval is not needed. I mean if you do not obey your Bishop and cannot trust the pope in their decisions why on earth would we share the treasure with you? If you were Catholics the say of the Vatican would satisfy you. The Truth is that you are neither Catholics nor Christians. Pee or get off the pot:either accept all catholic doctrine including obedience or go join a Protestant sect. They don't like obedience to peter and his successors either.
DeleteI didn't say anything about the Vol I. All I asked is why I can't buy the other volumes?
DeleteThe Vatican started crusades in the past. Most Catholics just accepted that it was a Holy war as the popes used to say and went to war. Today we know the crusades was a mistake.
DeleteThe fact that the Vatican approves something doesn't mean it's perfect, that is a childish approach. The only perfect book is the bible, and we do not even know all of it.
The pope approves thousands of groups and yet none are perfect so please stop saying the pope has approved the ncw as some sort of our group is perfect, because it is not, and until you realise that you will not be a true catholic group who are open to all people including well formed catholics from other walks of life.
Dear Keith,
DeleteThe Crusades began with the invasion of the Muslim Turks into the Holy Land (Jerusalem). The Muslims oppressed both the Jews and Christians. The Christians went to war to remove the Muslims from the Holy Land and protect the Christians. The problem, however, was there were Christians who were greedy and took advantage of the war to pursue their greed. If the Christians had done nothing, all of Europe would have become Muslims today.
Wow Keith. Your comparison of the the directories to holy war is spectacularly ignorant or fascetious. Holy war is not dogma and is not a required catholic belief. It is actually equatable to death penalty. Some Catholics believe in it others do not. Had Europe gotten their act together during the crusades we would not have the problems we see now. And you from Malta should know this better than anyone. I digress.
DeleteThe directories instead deal with the heart of catholic dogma and faith. Because of this the pope JP2 farmed the approval of the tomes to congregation of faith (Ratzinger at the time). Faith studied the tomes and approved them which means that they are catholic. Now since the Catholic Church is NOT a democracy but very much a hierarchical structure, the assurance of dogmatic kosherness (☺️) comes from above not below. Wether people approve the directories or not is irrelevant. Because the pope and congregation of faith has. Pope Francis doesn't like the death penalty, many Catholics do. Is that a dogmatic conflict? No. The Church says abortion is a sin no matter the circumstance. Many Catholics disagree. Is that a dogmatic conflict? YES! If you want to compare popular acceptance of the ncw, abortion works better.
I cannot wholeheartedly agree with you, dear Anonymous 11:39. Your concept of dogma is a little dry. You should remember that dogmatic thinking kills the Spirit as St Paul taught us. The greatest dogma ever of any kind of faith ever is the prohibition of activity on Sabbath day. This dogma made awful damages to the lives of people, it made them to suffer. We needed Jesus to override this horrible thing. Jesus gives us the Spirit of truth that makes you free in contrast to the spirit of servitude that enslaves you. The two things cannot exist together just as freedom in Jesus and enslavement to Sabbath day cannot exist together.
DeleteThis is the very same truth even now as you read. As it was so in the days of St Paul, it is also the same today. In our communities we experience the Spirit of Him who made Himself incarnate among us. This Spirit cannot exist in bondage. You have to break free from bondage in order to come to the Lord. This is the great thing about our communities.
I have to admit, the only reason I joined my community because I see the freedom of faith here. I would not stay any minute longer if this would not be true. You know if the game is dirty, it is better to stay out! I tell this also to Keith. He is still suspicious about the Way. But he cannot justify his suspicion because we live in the freedom of Christ and not in the bondage that bookworm Catholics at the jungle try to impose on everybody. They are like crazy bugs and the true democracy of God is like insect repellent for them. Wow, you see they are shrieking in horror and run away because they just cannot stand freedom. How sad.
Delta force you are confused. Dogma is not law, dogma is belief. Thou shalt not steal is law. The trinity is dogma. Sabbath prohibition is law, the immaculate conception is dogma. Dogmas are articles of faith that are not explainable through reason but that we believe without the aide of reason because they are divinely revealed to us.
DeleteNo, I am not confused, dear anonymous at 9:02. Being dogmatic means you don't convince anyone but try to impose on! This is what the jungle does. They cannot argue or say what is true, but trying to impose their dogmatic view on everyone. They even want to dry up donation from parishes. What is this if not imposition, blackmail and arrogance?
DeleteThere is no such thing as "not explainable through reason". You can explain Eucharist in the Way through reason. We consume the host together because this is the beauty of the whole Eucharist. We belong to Christ together as a community.
The Council of Trent wanted to stop erosion caused by the Protestants and made a big box of rules to frame Catholic life around. I worked for a couple of hundred years. But now is the time to break free. We outgrew the box of Trent, the framework of imposition. We see now how the Spirit of Him who came to be incarnate and free us is excluded from that box of dogmatic imposition.
You say "Whether people approve the directories or not is irrelevant. Because the pope and congregation of faith has." No, it is not irrelevant if you want to convince people of goodwill or just impose on them. We do not impose on anyone in our communities. We do not live "by the book" as bookworms in the jungle do. Dogmatic thinking goes beyond actual dogmas, it is a lifestyle of servitude and bondage. The communities offer an experience of the Spirit rather than a set of rules or dogmas. When one gives in to the community, one gives in to the Spirit and not to the books. Christ is who lives in the church, not dry letters of outdated books of a dogmatic past.
Dear Delta Force,
DeleteThe Council of Trent is a valid council, and it reinforced the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Protestants came with their own teachings and even took out 7 books from the Old Testament. They also taught that the Eucharist was only a symbol.
The Council of Trent, on the other hand, reinforced the Catholic teachings regarding the Eucharist as the true body and blood of Christ, and that the 7 books taken out by the Protestants are indeed inspired books. These are still teachings that we hold true today.
"We consume the host together because this is the beauty of the whole Eucharist. We belong to Christ together as a community. "
DeleteYou see, the problem with this sort of sentiment - which is actually exactly what the NCW teaches - is that it implies that the Church, in its lawful guidance and direction of the liturgy, is wrong - or at least "less right" than Kiko.
Furthermore your characterization of Trent, again quite consistent with Kiko's teaching is problematic in that it suggests that our predecessors in the faith did not have that have the freedom that comes with the Holy Spirit, but were in fact "excluded" from that Spirit. This is a denial of the Church that Jesus Christ established. It is a denial of the Holy Spirit that inhabits and inspires that Church. and apart from being incredibly arrogant and simplistic, it is an insult to the saints of that "dogmatic past", as you put it.
No Diana, I don't think so. There is a reason of abhorrence from Trent. At that time the Catholic Church had to cuddle up to protect itself from the Protestant onslaught. So the clergy at the council led by St Ignatius of Loyola came up with a very rigid dogmatic framework. Some of this was necessary, some was not. St Ignatius outdid the job a little. This made twist in the history of the church for about 350 years up until Vatican 2. It is time now to straight out the path of the Lord and this twist called Trent in church history.
DeleteAs about the books in the Apocrypha, again, the job was outdone a little. The Book of Tobit, for example, depicts a strange, erroneous geography that has never existed in real historic time. Some big cities of the time are misplaced. What is more, the Book of Tobit does not add any new theological information to the Old Testament, no wonder it is not part of Jewish canon either. It is about this one single book only, as an example.
Dear Delta Force,
DeleteThe Council of Trent is a valid council and did not bring any new teachings of the Catholic faith. Rather, it reinforced the faith at a time when the Protestants rebelled against the Church. The teachings, dogmas, and doctrines of the Catholic Church has remained the same for over 2000 years regardless of the few bad popes we had in the Church's history.
The books of the Bible have already been set and established toward the end of the fourth century. We have not changed the books since the fourth century. Vatican II was set up for a different reason.
Dear Anonymous at 9:16 pm,
DeleteWhen someone says something positive about the Way, why do you construe that as arrogance and demeaning to those who attend the parish Mass? Saying: ""We consume the host together because this is the beauty of the whole Eucharist. We belong to Christ together as a community. " is in no way putting down those who attend the parish Mass.
If someone had said that they experience great joy in the parish Mass as they receive the Body of Christ, and that he/she belongs to Christ, I do not interpret that to mean that the parish Mass is far better than the NCW Eucharist or even the Traditional Latin Mass. You are interpreting arrogance where arrogance is not meant. There is nothing wrong with having pride in the school you attend, the place you work in, the Church you go to, or the activities you participate in. One does not demean others when he/she says positive things about their experience. What is demeaning is when one resorts to calling the other "names."
The problem is that statements that are as ignorant, albeit enthusiastic, but still ignorant and extremely inaccurate like Delta Forces' feed misconceptions about the way! He's like an eager puppy barking cool things he's heard with no foundation and that he misinterprets! I understand pre-catechumen enthusiasm but this is public. Now jungle supporters are perhaps worse because they DO have evil intentions, but still better to limit these well intentioned but asinine comments like "abhorrence of trent" (?!?!?!!? a council that has set church policy for 500 years???? how dare you????). I've been a catechist for 20 years: do not speak for me and nowhere NOWHERE in any catechesis does anybody say anything like that. his mis-definition of dogma is shocking. Please limit his comments.
Deleteon the other hand he is the poster child of how misinformed catholics are and precisely the reason why people need a catechumen ate to discover their faith. obviously this guy has a ways to go. Do not think that his ignorance reflects what the way teaches: it reflects what the way corrects.
Dear Anonymous at 7:25 am,
DeleteThe brothers in the Way are not perfect and some may not know their Catholic faith as you realize. This is why we are walking in the Way. I have met brothers in the Way who have made errors. This is also true for Catholics not walking in the Way. After all, just look at how many Catholics are convinced that same-sex marriage is okay. As Catholics, we correct the brothers and help them come to a better knowledge and understanding of their Catholic faith.
I published Delta Forces' comments in order to correct him regarding the Council of Trent, which is a valid and legitimate council that met to reinforce and reaffirm the teachings of the Catholic Church in light of the Protestant Reformation.
Dear Anonymous 7:25, yeah that is exactly what I am talking about. I do not know who you are, you still tell me mean things... I apologize if anything I said hurt you, it was unintentional. I did not say the council at Trent is invalid or not Catholic or anything to that extent. Trent did a lot of good for the church. However, Trent also limited further works of the Spirit of Him who came to be incarnate among us.
DeleteBecause of the Protestant impact, the church was in great distress. St Ignatius came to help and I emphasize he did a lot of good in clarity and framework. But he outdid the job a little bit at Trent. This is a well known fact after Vatican 2. The natural diversity that had been so vital before Trent was boxed into a rigid frame of doctrines and regulations. Everything became uniform. The church needed Vatican 2 in order to free from the bondage of dogmatic uniformity that plagued the work of the Spirit for 350 years.
Even today the Way struggles to get accepted because we don’t follow senseless uniformity. We consume the Host together at our Eucharist and have the altar as table decorated by flowers. But this is not a fault, on the contrary, it is a beauty that shines through! The stone that has been rejected becomes the corner stone. We need to reject being locked into boxes and rigid dogmatism. Books are worthless if we do not look for the Spirit. The Lord is leading us to break free from bondage. We abandoned even the church buildings because we have our Eucharist in communities. What is the parish if not a community of communities? All those paintings and statues in the church buildings are only distractions from the work of the Spirit.
No, thank you, my faith does not need fixing. I know my faith and respectfully just stick to it. I don't need bookworms from the jungle to impose on me their dry uniform Catholicism. Please, tell me what is wrong with that and I will humbly listen to you. I cannot promise though that I will turn away my Lord. The reason we don't need catechists at the celebration of Word because the Spirit is coming straight from the Word. The Word speaks for itself while teaches faith.
We do not need books to impose on us, we only need books to teach us. Teaching is not the same as imposing. Jesus taught the disciples but never imposed on them. The same goes with the catechists. A catechist who imposes on the catechumenate destroys their faith even before it was born free. I personally could join any Christian group around. I chose my community because I know my faith. I don't need to be fixed my friend. I tell you the truth, if the game becomes dirty, imposes books on me and turns me away from the Lord, I won't be there anymore for sure! I'll run away gracefully to another place where freedom prevails. "You are my friend" says the Lord. That is well enough for me.
Delta force: you make a hodgepodge of ideas and historical reference based on inaccurate information and false premises that are very difficult to untwine in this context. But here are a few ends I'll pull.
Delete1. False premise: No books needed. Absolutely false. While there are examples of saints with scientia infusa, the great majority of Christians have been given brains that need developing in order to muddle through life at the best of our abilities. This means learning from books to develop reason and understand the tradition of the church, the fathers and scripture. And history. Without this you should not argue liturgy dogmatics or law. You can say "my experience is that ncw does ..." But you cannot say "ncw believes or is ..."
2. Inaccurate info: st. Ignatius and Trent. The Jesuits method and spirituality are actually a model for ncw. trent was the work of the Holy Spirit for the church situation of the time. Which you did mention. However to say "they went too far" is an incomprehensible statement that sounds like you are criticizing their work and the validity of the action of the Holy Spirit through them.
Anonymous, you may as well be right however my last comment contained 3 paragraphs, you only showed disagreement with the first part, the two other parts are far more important for people in the way to understand, the first paragraph was a sort of analogy, maybe a bad analogy if you understand it like you did, but an analogy nonetheless :)
DeleteA note to Diana, the last post on the page about not publishing anything against the way to me seems to be further proof that the people in the ncw are not open for discussions. however I have given up trying to show people what I firmly believe is not the true way one should live his christian catholic life, so now it is up to you people to reflect in your heart alone whether what you do you do for yourself, for the good of the ncw, for others or for God, the last two being the only 'correct' answers, and hopefully the ones many of you choose.
Dear Keith,
DeleteA person who only quotes from anti-Neo websites is not interested in open dialogue. If a person is truly confused and wants clarification from the NCW, they would ask questions and listen attentively rather than quote from the anti-Neo websites and then demean the NCW with insults.
Keith: The way is a set of spiritual gifts. The directories, the statutes are these gifts. These have been approved by the church which means that in matter of faith and praxis the way is kosher/ok/catholic whatever you want to call it. there can not be 2 faiths! which means that these gifts of the NCW are the church. and with this if you are well intentioned you will not assume I am saying no one else is church. I am saying n the contrary that all agencies charisms etc that teach and live the faith of the church, all these are the church. You can say "I experienced this…." and criticize the people who walk in the way, but when you say the NCW is not a "way to live cristian catholic life" then you are saying that the organization that has approved statutes and directories is not "a way to live christian catholic life" in other words you are saying that the church is neither chrisitan nor catholic. You can say that PEOPLE are not christian nor catholic but you cannot say that about the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, you can! I love free speech, but then you are putting yourself outside of communion with rome and effectively declaring yourself protestant. Choose your sect.
Deletein my reading your paragraph 2 and 3 are based in #1. the answer answers them too.
@ keith xuereb on April 25, 2015 at 8:37 PM
DeleteYour saying that the Holy See's approval can be mistaken and only the Bible can't be mistaken is the fallacy of the Reformation. It is Holy Mother Church who hands the Bible over to us (tra-ditio). The reason why we have the Bible is because the Church's tradition has given it to us. Otherwise how would you know what writings are Sacred Scripture and what writings aren't? In fact, our Protestant brethren can't agree with us even in this point. Jesus has promised to be with us to the end of the world and sent the Holy Spirit to his apostles and they, in turn, laid their hands on their successors. Our Church is apostolic. That is why you can't be serious in professing Catholic faith and just dismiss something that has been enjoying the verbal and written encouragement and approval of six popes and various dicasteries of the Holy See, and say they might be mistaken, because only the Bible can't be mistaken. That would be inconsistent and self-contradictory.
RE: Anonymous Apr 24, 2015@7:12
ReplyDeleteIn a letter to the chief of Radio Maria[68] in 1994, Zoffoli reported that, already in the late sixties, Saint Pio of Pietrelcina defined Kiko Argüello and the Neocatechumenals as “the new false prophets“.
And, even if you don't believe it:
If it wasn't for those seeking the truth and correcting the people who were indoctrinating others with teachings that were not Catholic (THIS INCLUDES THE POPES), the NCW would still be catechizing errors, and still be celebrating their Masses without the prayers of the Creed, Lamb of God, etc.
The NCW Mass still needs to be corrected as per the NCW's approved Statutes of 2008. Don't settle for the outdated and unapproved Statutes of 2002.
You've got a good thing; it can become better! Then, more will join, and more will promote the Way.
You've discovered some truth. Keep searching for the whole truth.
Hi Timmy, how is the air like over here at our blog? Do you like to breath it in our fresh air every day? Woww!! You just cannot stay away holed up at your own blog, can you?! Don't worry, I completely understand you, though. Your blog is soooooooo boring. You really need to come over here to some excitement. Lol and lol again!
DeleteI can show you 4 Popes letters; video's...etc....affirming the NCW standing since inception.
DeleteIn a letter?????? what letter?????
You bet I don't believe it. Your comment is nothing
Dear Anonymous at 6:24 am,
DeleteSo, why do you bother to come to this blog if you already made up your mind in what you want to believe??? On March 6th, Pope Francis gave the NCW its strongest support, and you still do not believe.
To whom it may concern,
ReplyDeleteMy name is Fr. Stephen Arabadjis. I am a member of the Society of St. Pius X. But I am in my 7th year of Sabbatical.Therefore I was hoping your group could do a 54 day rosary novena for my intentions. But any prayers and sacrifices would be greatly appreciated. I know Our Lady will reward you generously for this.
In Our Lady,
Fr. Arabadjis
P.S. Thanking you in advance, since I don't always get all my communications.