AnonymousApril 7, 2015 at 7:58 AM
Diane, the NCW is heretical. Kiko's theology is not Catholic. Chuck explained it very well.
Chuck WhiteApril 6, 2015 at 6:04 PM
Did you know that the word "trinity" only appears once in the body* of the 427-page English version Volume I of the Neocatechumenal Catechetical Directory?
"All of this he has fulfilled in Jesus, since he, brothers and sisters, really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity. He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected by God and he has entered into the Promised Land." pp. 217-218, 10th Day
What do you think?
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* for those that quibble, the word "Trinity" appears only one more time, in a quotation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in a footnote on page 152. But only once in the body of the text.
First of all, Chuck White is implying that Kiko's catechesis is NOT Catholic. So, the Catechetical Directory mentions "Trinity" only once. That is not a factor to determine whether the NCW is Catholic or not. The Holy Bible does not even mention the word "Trinity". Does this mean that the Douay Rhimes or the New American Bible is not Catholic.???
Chuck White appears to have a problem with Kiko saying that "Jesus......really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity." In fact, Mr. White further stated in the jungle:
Yes, it says "he...entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity."
It's a classic Kiko half-truth. Jesus did ascend to the Father in His resurrected human body, but where's the other half of the truth to be found in Kiko's catechism? That Jesus was Second Person of the Holy Trinity and was so prior to His incarnation?
He wrote that Kiko's statement is a "classic half-truth." The fact that Kiko mentioned the Trinity in here should already be an indication that Jesus was the Second Person. And Chuck White asked, where the other half of the truth is in that Jesus is the Second Person in the Holy Trinity???? Does he not know that the Trinity also included the Second Person?? Well, Mr. White, how do you explain the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which specifically stated that God the Father introduced His Son's humanity into the Trinity. It is very clear that Chuck White misinterpret Kiko's catechesis for the sole purpose of discrediting the NCW. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (capitalization is mine):
| 648 Christ's Resurrection is an object of faith in that it is a transcendent intervention of God himself in creation and history. In it the three divine persons act together as one, and manifest their own proper characteristics. The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly INTRODUCED HIS SON'S HUMANITY, INCLUDING HIS BODY, INTO THE TRINITY. Jesus is conclusively revealed as "Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his Resurrection from the dead". St. Paul insists on the manifestation of God's power through the working of the Spirit who gave life to Jesus' dead humanity and called it to the glorious state of Lordship. |
Hmm, that's an extremely badly argued article, Diana. You haven't refuted the poster's issue one bit. And what is more, you haven't got close to answering any of Mr White's observations. He, on the other hand, is quite thorough in his analysis of the theology of the NCW.
ReplyDelete"Achieved transcendence" is to imply that his humanity acquired divinity. In the CCC passage you quote the meaning is the opposite - that the divinity "acquired" his humanity.
Dear Anonymous at 10:46 am,
DeleteThis is what the Catechism says: " that it is a transcendent intervention of God himself in creation and history."
The Catechism says that it is a "transcendent intervention" in creation and history. How did God intervened in order to "achieve this transcendence"?? The answer: By introducing His Son's humanity into the Trinity.
"He has achieved transcendence"
DeleteWho is "He" here? Because God is transcendent already. And Jesus is God, presumably? So, who "achieved transcendence" exactly?
In the CCC the transcendent intervention is of God - God enters into the created order in a special way in the act of the resurrection.
Dear Anonymous at 11:15 am,
DeleteGod the Father does NOT have a "human nature." ONLY the Second Person in the Holy Trinity assumed a human nature as the Nicene Creed says "was born of the Virgin Mary and became man".
You didn't answer the question.
Delete"He has achieved transcendence"
Who is "He" here? Because God is transcendent already. And Jesus is God, presumably? So, who "achieved transcendence" exactly?
Dear Anonymous at 11:23 am,
DeleteDo you not know that we Catholics believe that there are three persons in ONE God? All three persons are one but also distinct. So when the Catechism says (Capitalization is mine):
"The FATHER'S power "raised up" Christ His Son and by doing so perfectly introduced His Son's humanity, including His body, into the Trinity".
This above is interpreted to mean that it was God the Father (the First Person) who raised His Son's humanity, including His Body INTO THE TRINITY.......exactly as it says. The Catechism mentions the FATHER raising HIS SON'S HUMANITY into the Trinity. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit does not have any human nature.
Amazing. You still can't answer the question. Kiko says, "He has achieved transcendence".
DeleteWho "achieved transcendence"?
Dear Anonymous at 11:58 am,
DeleteWhy did you not clarify yourself??? I thought you were referring to the Catechism while you were referring to Kiko's statement. This is what Kiko stated in the Catechetical Directory:
"All of this he has fulfilled in Jesus, since he, brothers and sisters, really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity. He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected by God and he has entered into the Promised Land." pp. 217-218, 10th Day
"All this HE has fulfilled in Jesus........" The HE in this statement was referring to God the Father.. All this HE (God the Father) has fulfilled in Jesus.
Kiko continued to say: "......... since he, brothers and sisters, really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity" Who has entered into the Trinity. Clearly, Kiko stated that it was Christ's HUMAN NATURE. Christ is the ONLY person in the Holy Trinity who has a human nature.
Kiko goes on to explain, "He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected BY GOD". Who achieved transcendence? It was the HUMAN NATURE of Christ just as the Catechism stated: The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly INTRODUCED HIS SON'S HUMANITY, INCLUDING HIS BODY, INTO THE TRINITY.
"He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected BY GOD"
ReplyDeleteSo you are saying that God the Father is the "He" in this sentence?
Lets write that again, then:
"God the Father has achieved transcendence, God the Father has been resurrected by Go and he has entered the Promised Land"
Does that make sense to you?
Dear Anonymous at 12:48 pm,
DeleteI revised my comment above to make it clearer.
"All of this he has fulfilled in Jesus, since he, brothers and sisters, really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity. He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected by God and he has entered into the Promised Land." pp. 217-218, 10th Day
"All this HE has fulfilled in Jesus........" The HE in this statement was referring to God the Father.. All this HE (God the Father) has fulfilled in Jesus.
Kiko continued to say: "......... since he, brothers and sisters, really entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity" Who has entered into the Trinity. Clearly, Kiko stated that it was Christ's HUMAN NATURE. Christ is the ONLY person in the Holy Trinity who has a human nature.
Kiko goes on to explain, "He has achieved transcendence, he has been resurrected BY GOD". Who achieved transcendence? It was the HUMAN NATURE of Christ just as the Catechism stated: The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly INTRODUCED HIS SON'S HUMANITY, INCLUDING HIS BODY, INTO THE TRINITY.
Its still unclear, Diana. Can you not give a straight answer? The "He" is Jesus? Or are you now saying Jesus is actually two persons - a human one and a divine one?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:01 pm,
DeleteThis was the reason why I revised my first comment, so that even a child would be able to understand that it was the HUMAN nature of Christ whom Kiko was referring that was brought into the Trinity.
So you believe that the HUMAN nature of Christ is a person, and the Divine nature of Christ is a different person. I see. Well, there's a problem....
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:31 pm,
DeleteThere is only ONE person - Jesus Christ. However, the Catholic Church DOES teach that Christ has both a human and divine NATURE. The "natures" of Christ are not "persons." Nowhere in my comments did I ever say that Christ has a "human" person and a "divine" person. That is simply your way of trying to manipulate the dialogue. I am assuming that you are a knowledgeable Catholic who already know what the Catholic Church teach. But in case you are actually ignorant of her teachings.......the Second Person in the Holy Trinity is the ONLY one who has a human and divine NATURE. That means that Christ is true God (divine) and true man (human). God the Father and God the Holy Spirit does not have a human nature.
Thankyou Diana, but I do in fact know this basic theology. The point I am making is that Kiko said "He achieved transcendence". I am trying to make sense of this, and it appears you are having difficulty too, because when I asked who the "He" is in this statement, you seem to have replied that the "he" is Jesus Christ's Human nature.
DeleteNow, "He" is a personal pronoun - referring presumably to a person, so when you identify this "he" with the human nature of Christ, you must be simultaneously expressing that the human nature of Christ is a person.
As we all know, this is not what the Church teaches. It is clear that Jesus Christ is transcendent by virtue of him being the second person of the trinity. Therefore if when Kiko says "he", he means Christ, he is saying something problematic because Jesus did not "achieve transcendence".
Dear Anonymous at 3:56 pm,
DeleteAre you saying that Christ does NOT have a human nature??? I thought I made it clear that Christ is a person with both a human and divine nature.
It is clear in the Catechism that " The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly INTRODUCED HIS SON'S HUMANITY, INCLUDING HIS BODY, INTO THE TRINITY".
Do you have a problem with that statement in the Catechism, which specifically stated that "Son's humanity, including his Body was introduced INTO THE TRINITY." Do you know what "into the Trinity" means?
You stated: " I am trying to make sense of this, and it appears you are having difficulty too, because when I asked who the "He" is in this statement, you seem to have replied that the "he" is Jesus Christ's Human nature."
Would you prefer to call Christ's "human body" an "IT?" Kiko recognized that the gender of Christ's human body is male. So, when the Catechism says: The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly introduced His Son's humanity, INCLUDING HIS BODY, into the Trinity." would you conclude that Christ's body is a male (and not a female) and therefore being male.....it would be a "he" rather than a "she"??? Does that make better sense?
Good job diana and whoever else writes this blog. Now answer chuck's other questions. Why only one Eucharist prayer? Why removing mentions of the word sacrifice? Man is zero plus sin?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 1:28 pm,
DeleteThank you. I am glad that you were able to comprehend what I wrote. If Chuck misinterpreted this simple verse for the sole purpose of discrediting the Way, the same is true for everything else that Chuck White copied from Anti-Neo websites.
Diana,
DeleteWell how do we know that the Protestant Christians are following the ways of Christ? What is their major difference from us?
Dear Anonymous at 8:44 am,
DeleteThe Protestant Christians can follow the ways of Christ by imitating His humility. However, the Protestant Christians and Catholics have similar doctrines, but some of it are different. For example, Catholics do not believe in "sole fide" (faith alone). We also believe in a Purgatory while Protestants do not. Catholics venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints. Protestants do not.
Way is useless. We are saved already by the blood of the cross. We are saved today and if your like me I know I'm going straight to my seat at the eternal banquet. When the Lord calls me I go from paradise into infinite paradise into infinity.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 6:08 pm,
DeleteYou must be a Protestant Christian. Catholics understand that a person can lose their salvation. We do not believe in the "once saved, always saved" philosophy for it a false philosophy and is not biblical.
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Sorry, but I do not understand all this discussion.
ReplyDeleteThe Holy See has studied thoroughly these catechesis and not only did they approve them but they also praised them. Let us follow the wise judgement of the Church and not some petty guy.
Who is Chuck White? He may be good in computers but he has no clue in theology. Is he more knowledgeable than the theologians which studied these catechesis at the Vatican? Let us be sensible.
If I understand correctly Thoughtful Catholic questioned the meaning of Kiko Arguello's claim that Jesus "entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity". The contention is that the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way may have repudiated the divine nature of Jesus by saying this. The focus is on this: how could God the Son who is divine by its very being enter into the divinity, into the Trinity?
ReplyDeleteWell, I see the point here. If Jesus is divine then he has always been part of the Godhead, part of the Holy Trinity, therefore cannot "enter" this divine status that He has always been part of since the beginning of time. If this is the contention then the answer cannot be anything else but a big yes. Yes, Jesus is and has been divine from the beginning of time and He cannot enter divinity as Jesus, the Son of God. But cannot He enter divinity with in another way, in human nature? Cannot He elevate us, human beings to Himself? Well, this question sounds completely different, doesn't it?
God the Father created man on the image of Himself. So we should say, yes, we as human beings have a nature of potentially godly qualities. We have this as long as we follow His commandments. The same goes with God the Spirit. The only way our soul is able to communicate with the Holy Spirit as if receiving its broadcast is that our soul has the potential quality of the Spirit. In other way the collective soul of the faithful amounts to nothing less than an organic constituent of the Holy Spirit. This potential human quality of holiness is elevated to and sanctified by the Holy Trinity through the human nature of Jesus.
Thoughtful Catholic follows a script of orthodox fundamentalists who try to frame the Way as heretic. They are much eager to paint the Way's theology as anti-Trinitarian, denying the preexistence of Jesus before his incarnation. Eventually their charge is nothing less than Arianism, a heresy that existed in the early Church, dividing and imbuing it with false teaching. But there is a fine line here: Arianism is truly anti-Trinitarian while none of the existing mainline Christian Churches are! I mean, anti-Trinitarianism is nonexistent in both Catholic and Protestant Churches, including Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. denominations. Is this not completely absurd to claim that the Neocatechumenal Way, a mainstream Catholic itinerary inside the Church, is anti-Trinitarian?
The same goes with the so called preexistence theology that expounds on the divine status of Jesus even before the creation of the world. Preexistence theology is based on the Gospel of St John. In the prologue of the Gospel we learn that Jesus is the Word of God and the whole universe was created through Him! So how could anyone deny that Jesus existed as a divine person before his own incarnation? Those who weave this absurdity in order to push others down only show themselves as badly lacking holiness and lacking that divine potential shared by all faithful: the God given moral sense guiding us on the path of salvation.
Bernardin, you did not respond any of Chuck White's concerns. It is true that the Holy Trinity is not emphasized, what is more, strongly de- emphasized in Kiko's theology! Why is that? Is the reason truly a denial of the preexistence of Christ? This would be a most disturbing thing about the neos.
DeleteIf Jesus did not exist before time, then he is subjected to time, therefore dependent on time. But then how could the world be created through him, including time and space?? Do you see the problem? Denying the preexistence of Christ is the same as stripping Jesus from his divinity. This is exactly what Kiko's claim about Jesus implies! Do you see the problem already?
Chuck asks you neos what is the reason you avoid praying the Nicene Creed and replace it at every occasion by the Apostles Creed? You do not pray the Nicene Creed at you Eucharistic celebration either! Why? I tell you why. The Apostles Creed does not include the preexistence of Christ! This is why you stick to it and never pray the Nicene Creed which is longer and explains not only the preexistence of Christ but also the consubstantiality of the Father with the Son, including the Holy Spirit who "proceeds from the Father and the Son", thus placing the very concept of the Holy Trinity on a very sound foundation.
Please, disprove me when I assert that you guys avoid talking about the Holy Trinity because you do no like this tenet of the Church. You avoid mentioning the divinity of Jesus because for you he is just a guy born of Mary who "entered with human nature into the divinity". The emphasis is on the world "with". You even avoid talking about the preexistence of Christ, because for you he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and did not exist before. Please, disprove me and convince me that I am wrong by praying the Nicene Creed, confessing the fullness of Catholic faith as our fathers transmitted it to us as a most precious deposit of our faith. Please, pray it at your masses. Would you?!
Dear Anonymous at 5:48 pm,
DeleteI believe that we addressed the untruthfulness of Chuck White. And for your information, we do pray the niceness Creed. Chuck White has never been to any NCW Eucharist, so he has no idea that we do pray the Niceness Creed. He simply invents a story to discredit the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 5:48 PM, you are greatly mistaken. I am not a member of the Neocatechumenal Way. I shared my opinion as I see it from outside. There are unjust accusations against the Way trying to push its members out of the scope of protection by our Mother Church. I perceive this as wrong, vicious and barbaric.
DeleteYou push the same ticket as Thoughtful Catholic. You try to frame this Catholic group as anti-Trinitarian and its leader as heretic. But where is your evidence? I haven't seen any! Nowadays there is no sensible Christian denomination that would deny the divinity of Jesus or the preexistence of Christ. Why would anyone do that? Perhaps the only exception is the Unitarian Church but that is a completely different story...
Therefore the Neocatechumenal Way is not anti-Trinitarian either! Please, present your evidence if you have any or just acknowledge that you are wrong. There could be other reason, if the Way prefers the Apostles Creed over the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed is an early summary of Christian faith reflecting the views of the primitive church about Jesus. It does NOT deny the preexistence of Christ only does not mention it. The Nicene Creed is a natural elaboration of the same church teachings guided by the Holy Spirit. Who would deny that?!
As far as I can see, the Neocatechumenal Way strikes a fine line between the orthodoxy of Catholic fundamentalists and open minded, reform oriented liberals. I myself cannot agree with either extremes but I firmly believe that Jesus liberates us from bondage. If you don't feel liberated by turning toward Him then there is a serious problem with your faith. The Way seems to be an excellent tool of true and spirited liberation for and through Christ the Savior.
Okay Bernardin, you are not a neo... Strange but this is what you say. But then again, why are you defending their practices and the blatant avoidance of sound church doctrines by the Neocatechumenal leaders, especially the teams, the catechists and the members? You seem to agree that the Apostles Creed is way too much primitive and inadequate to express the fullness of the deposits of the ancient Catholic faith. Then it is just consequential to draw the obvious conclusion: persistent avoidance of the Nicene Creed is a sure sign of flawed theology, even heresy!
DeleteSo why do you think it has nothing to do with Arianism? Arianism is exactly the heresy that denies the preexistence of Christ. Catholic believers, including the followers of Arius, confessed the primitive creed at the time of Arius during the ancient history of the church. Arius had no problem with that... In contrast, the Nicene Creed, the full creed shook and reduced Arius to shambles by declaring the divinity of Jesus and the preexistence of Christ with no uncertain terms!
Let me say again: Arius was quite happy with the Apostles Creed because this creed has no concept of the Holy Trinity. Arianism could reconcile all its heretic teachings with this incomplete, primitive creed, because the Apostles Creed does not contradict them! The church was able reduce Arianism much later by and through the Nicene Creed only. Why? Because this is the full creed produced at the Council of Nicea. This is the creed that talks clearly about the preexistence of Christ before creation, the consubstantiality of the father and the Son and the Holy Trinity. This creed chased Arianism away just like holy water chases the devil away!
That is why it is not accidental at all that neos do not know and do not confess the Nicene Creed. They cannot even pronounce, even less understand, the world ‘consubstantial’ because they have never learned about its true meaning. I am not surprised that Catholic liberals like you, dear Bernardin, look with sympathy on these false practices. It is handy for liberals to push forward the neo as a wedge into the body of the church. Using them you advance your agenda of gradual destruction of the sound doctrines of the church.
Dear Anonymous at 7:51 am,
DeleteYour argument is flawed. You stated: " Arius was quite happy with the Apostles Creed because this creed has no concept of the Holy Trinity."
In the first place, the Nicene Creed was NOT created at that time, so ALL of Christianity used the Apostles Creed. ALL Christians used the Apostle Creed because that was the Creed they had. The Nicene Creed did NOT exist until AFTER the Council of Nicea. So, your argument is extremely flawed. To say that the Arians used the Apostles Creed because this creed had no concept of the Holy Trinity is absolutely false! The Apostles Creed was the only creed that existed at that time.
Tradition says that it was the Apostles who wrote the Apostles Creed, and they certainly had a concept of the Holy Trinity because they were the ones who taught it to the Early Christians. The purpose of the Council of Nicea was to discuss the Arian controversy. As a result, the Nicene Creed was created.
See, I told you so, Diana. You could not bring up any single thing that was has not already been written. "The church was able reduce Arianism much later by and through the Nicene Creed only. Why? Because this is the full creed produced at the Council of Nicea." This is exactly what I wrote. The Nicene Creed was created as an extension of the Apostles Creed in order to counter Arianism. Arius did not have any problem with the Apostles Creed, because he was
Delete1. against the trinitarian view,
2. against the divinity of Jesus and
3. against the preexistence of Christ.
The Apostles Creed contains no direct reference to any of these church doctrines. It is by no means accidental that the neos preference is also the Apostles Creed over the Nicene Creed. Do you agree with me on this as well, Diana?
Dear Anonymous at 4:01 pm,
DeleteAnd of course, you have nothing to say about the Catholic Church using the Apostles Creed. What creed did the Catholic Church used BEFORE the Nicene Creed was developed???? The Catholic Church also used the Apostles Creed, but the the Catholic Church never went astray as Arius did. Arius simply doubted the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Apostles Creed had nothing to do with it.
I don't understand how people are still following Tim Rohr and Chuck White?!
ReplyDeleteThe pope recently announced (again) that he supports this "charism."
It's amazing how these people are like "well the pope said this, but Tim and Chuck say this..."
...and you call yourselves Catholic?
Yes. Pope said he supports charism. Didn't hear him say he supports charism taking over a Metropolitan Archdiocese. Did you hear that, Diana?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:36 pm,
DeleteThe Metropolitan Archdiocese is still Catholic; therefore, I have no idea what "take over" you are concern about.
...reading all these...seems like Kiko is more powerful than the pope himself....looks like Kiko should have created the CCC....to make it clear to all people. I understand why my families go to NCW teachings...they understand it better than going to RCIA.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousApril 8, 2015 at 11:48 AM
ReplyDelete...reading all these...seems like Kiko is more powerful than the pope himself....
It is not a question of who is more powerful or who is more blessed anonymous....etc, anonymous April 8. Both men have a purpose....a meaning for their lives and struggling in this case to follow what they believe what God has given them the grace to do.
The same can be said about our relatives in the NCW. We struggle with the morale teachings of the Church; we struggle with prayer; and we struggle with scriptures. It is not because we understand it better; it is because we don't understand anything.
It is a struggle but God does reveal to those who search.
JSB
The anonymous who commented earlier on this post, appears like Chuck White and Tim as anonymous. Hello Captain obvious.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately Ms. Diana presents a deeply flawed understanding of Catholic Theology.
Dear Anonymous at 9:31 am,
DeleteIf you are going to make statements like this, you need to support it with logic and reason or with documented evidence.
Some people do not understand Catechism #648 in this entry post. They did not understand Kiko's catechesis when he said ""entered with human nature into the divinity, into the Trinity"
DeleteThe Catechism of the Catholic Church #648 stated ":......The Father's power "raised up" Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly INTRODUCED HIS SON'S HUMANITY, INCLUDING HIS BODY, INTO THE TRINITY........... St. Paul insists on the manifestation of God's power through the working of the Spirit who gave life to Jesus' dead humanity and called it to the glorious state of Lordship."
What St. Paul says here is that Christ's human body has been called into a "glorious state". After the resurrection, Christ had a glorified body.......a glorified human body and nature that cannot die because God the Father has introduced His Son's humanity and human body INTO THE TRINITY. This is what Kiko had meant, which is in accordance to the Catechism. In no way has Kiko ever denied the existence of the Holy Trinity.
ReplyDeleteMs Diana. It appears to readers that you believe on focus on the human nature of Jusus Christ where by you seem to give the impression that Jesus participated in same sins as humanity. This is not Catholic theology. Jesus Christ is fully human yes, but fully divine. Our concerns for you is constant focus on the humanity of Christ to the neglect of his divinity . For this reason NCW theology is not of the catholic church.
Dear Anonymous at 11:44 am,
DeleteDid you not read any of my comments above??? I have stated so many times that Christ has both a human and divine nature because posters like you focus only on the divine nature and you neglect His humanity.
You stated: " It appears to readers that you believe on focus on the human nature of Jusus Christ where by you seem to give the impression that Jesus participated in same sins as humanity."
The FACT that you even stated this shows that you truly do not understand Jesus' humanity. Where in any of my comments do I give the impression that Jesus participated in the same sins as humanity????? Christ was fully human and fully divine and without sin. Where did Christ get His humanity from??? He got His humanity from Mary, who is also without sin. Yes......we also believe that Mother Mary was born without sin and did not commit any personal sins. For this reason, the NCW theology is part of the Catholic Church.
This discussion was brought forth because some people misinterpret Kiko's catechesis and accused the NCW of being anti-Trinitarian. Kiko mentioned the word "Trinity" and nowhere did he ever say that he did not believe in the Trinity. It is only those who oppose the Way and Kiko who are saying those false statements.
Diana. Two distinct natures of Christ to be held in balance. Problem with formational way teaching of Fr. Pius is that he focuses on humanity of Chist and teaches Christ sinned like humanity. Fr . Pius teaches Christ evn had sexual thoughts on Mary magdalen and acted on them like humanity. This is amounts to saying Christ sinned.
ReplyDeleteFr. Pius teaches a religion very different to our religion taught by the sisters of mercy.
Dear Anonymous at 12:51 pm,
DeletePlease do not invent stories. I have never known nor heard Father Pius say that Christ sinned or even had sexual thoughts about Mary Magdalene.
Invent stories?? I believe Anonymous April 9, 2015 at 12:51 PM should lay off the sacramental wine
DeleteAnonymous April 9 12:51
DeleteYou speak as you were in fact present and heard Father Pius speak on the subject of Christ humanity.
Please share with us when and where exactly this took place.
JSB
DeleteJSB. Christ is human and divine two natures. Humanity/divinity held in balance. To over stress humanity focus on human sin is Pius speculation.
Dear Anonymous at 10:14 am,
DeleteYou did not answer the questions. Where and when did you hear Father Pius speak on Christ's humanity and were you present there?
JSB, when did Jesus exactly had consciousness that He was divine while here on earth?
DeleteDear Anon at 12.01. The Church teaches clearly that Jesus had the Divine vision while in the womb of his mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. See paragraph 75 of Pope Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi:
Delete"For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God, when He began to enjoy the beatific vision, and in that vision all the members of His Mystical Body were continually and unceasingly present to Him, and He embraced them with His redeeming love. "
This teaching has been made continuously from the beginning of the Church, for example, by St Athanasius, and is to be considered infallible.
Oh, dear Anonymous... so father pius teaches wrong doctrine...He should be burnt on the stake for being a heretic! LOL. So many lies, lies, lies, lies...
ReplyDeleteHe did not share that moment with me Anonymous April 10, 2015 at 12:01 PM
ReplyDeleteJSB
JSB...
ReplyDeleteFrom the Catechesis:Kiko says the contrary (p. 124): "Doesn't it seem better to you to have a figure who is more human [Arianism] because, after all, anything else would not be attainable. How can we possibly imitate him if our human nature is weak and fallen? Jesus isn't at all an ideal for life; Jesus didn't come to give us his example." On p. 126 he says,"People think that with his life, his death, and above all with his suffering Jesus has given us an example so that we will do the same. For these people, Jesus is an ideal, a role model, an example... Not so!"
Dear Anonymous at 9:43 am,
DeleteThe reason Christ came to us in the flesh was to redeem mankind. That was the REAL purpose of His incarnation......for the redemption of man so that we can have eternal life. We cannot save or redeem ourselves. Christ in his life, death, and suffering, came to forgive our sins so that we can have eternal life. Our human nature is weak. We cannot imitate Christ on our own. We need the grace of God to do this.
Anonymous April 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM
Deletefrom what book or reference are you talking about? (p. 124)?? p. 126? Can I buy it?
Anonymous @ 9:45 and all those who are bandying about the slander of Arianism are ignorant of the letter to the Hebrews 4:15.
DeleteHe also is intellectually dishonest as he cuts out the other 25 pages that surround this quote and were approved by Ratzinger. Taking quotes out of context is an old trick. It is also against the 7 commandment. Now you know and if you do it again it becomes mortal sin.
The more appropriate questions to these people are
1. Are you aware that the directories are approved by the Church?
2. Are you aware that by mud slinging the directories you are mudslinging those who approved them?
3. Is that your willful intention?
Dear Anon at 4.24. Which directories are "approved by the Church"? Can you show them to us? Otherwise it is just nonsense to speak of them. How are we to know whether you refer to the ones supposedly "approved by the Church"? How do we know that these ones "approved by the Church" are actually the ones you use in the catechesis? Maybe you use the ones that aren't "approved by the Church". Should we just trust you on that? What a joke
DeleteAfter our repeated reassurances, the pope's public endorsements and our continuous willingness to dialogue despite the unjust accusations, slander and physical threats that jungle, thoughtful catholic and the rest of you have thrown at ncw, the fact that you are not willing to trust my good intentions or those of anyone in the ncw shows that your intent is demonic. You are causing scandal. Take heed of your immortal soul. It is the feast of mercy, I will pray for you.
DeleteDear Anon at 8.50am. Is this an answer to the previous post of 10.45? I hope not, as it is meaningless in that context. How about actually answering the questions, rather than throwing insults around like "you are causing scandal"? The "scandal" here is that these questions remain unanswered and the books remain secret. Show me one other case in the Catholic Church where similar documents are kept from the faithful. Just one other example will do? Can you do that?
DeleteFrom the web
ReplyDeleteAbsolute inerrancy: Some Catholic theologians have claimed that, in its original autograph version, the Bible is inerrant -- without error. This appears to be the consensus of popes, of most of the Catholic scholars and of other church leaders until the mid 20th century. This belief developed naturally from their conviction that God inspired the authors of the Bible. If God controlled the writers' words directly or indirectly, then he would not have led them into error. Deceit and error are not normally attributes expected of God.
Since the tittle of this blog is the Error of Thoughtful Catholic....it is reasonable to assume that if 20th century biblical scholars themselves want to "correct" the errors "they" found in the Bible; the average lay person may also feel that they are justified to question scriptures.
Is the scholar God inspired? Maybe in his own mind. Is the lay person God inspired? Maybe too in his own mind.
Then we have people on Guam who are adamant about Catholic doctrines, beliefs and practices. Their God inspired criticism of the NCW is justified....righteous.
We have people like Anonymous April 9, 2015 at 12:51 PM who accuse Father Pius of to quote: Fr . Pius teaches Christ evn had sexual thoughts on Mary magdalen and acted on them like humanity. This is amounts to saying Christ sinned.
Fr. Pius teaches a religion very different to our religion taught by the sisters of mercy.
This person has not met or talk to Father Pius; This person does not know a Priest with 40 plus years of devotion to the Church of Jesus Christ and his people. Without providing proof or any response when asked; when and where; anonymous reminds truly anonymous.
As with anonymous; we ourselves may need to read Mark 12: 29-34. We are all searching for the: divine....the God given inspiration. May it start today with reading and praying on Mark.
JSB