However, in some areas where initially the reform of the Easter Vigil was received enthusiastically, it would appear that with the passage of time this enthusiasm has begun to wane. The very concept of the vigil has almost come to be forgotten in some places with the result that it is celebrated as if it were an evening Mass, in the same way and at the same time as the Mass celebrated on Saturday evening in anticipation of the Sunday.
It also happens that the celebrations of the Triduum are not held at the correct times. This is because certain devotions and pious exercises are held at more convenient times and so the faithful participate in them rather than in the liturgical celebrations.
The Statutes of the Neocatehcumenal Way states:
§ 3. In this way, the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration
of the Paschal Vigil.46
Considering that the Vatican was not very happy with the way many parishes were celebrating the Easter Vigil, I highly doubt that the NCW was supposed to follow the Easter Vigil of the parish, but rather that we were the example and role model that the parishes were supposed to follow. As the Statutes stated, "the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil". It was not the other way around.
I highly doubt that the NCW was supposed to follow the Easter Vigil of the parish, but rather that we were the example and role model that the parishes were supposed to follow
ReplyDeletelol, throw modesty out the window why dont you
Dear Anonymous at 3:15 pm,
DeleteI was not being modest. I was being honest. :-)
Easter vigil is to be celebrated in the parish community one ecclesial community. Those who have private masses in homes Sunday's should not have private mass Easter Sunday. One Easter vigil at a parish and all join. Unity of church. By the very fact NCW want their own vigil is a sign of the disunity of this movement.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:54 pm,
DeleteWe do not celebrate the Easter Vigil in a home. We usually have it at a hotel, parish social hall, or some place big enough to accommodate many communities. And we have had non-members attend the Easter Vigil. See my comment below at 6:18 am.
Hotel?? Fancy aren't we?
DeleteThe Easter vigil is a Easter vigil we are one their are Easter vigils in toto their are Easter vigils in Yona their are Easter vigils in dededo so your saying that if we have a vigil like at pacific star that we are not in a parish we still have a name and a parish but in different places but where their is a church and it's in like in toto and it's Yona we don't hear them saying you need to join us we are still a Parish in another place
DeleteParagraph 94 of Paschalis Sollemnitatis, on the Easter Vigil, states:
ReplyDelete"The celebration of the Easter Vigil for special groups is not to be encouraged since, above all in this Vigil, the faithful should come together as one and should experience a sense of ecclesial community."
I highly doubt the NCW is meant to be celebrating separately if this is what the Church instructs, AND, this instruction is actually listed at footnote 46 of the Statutes of the NCW , article 12, regarding the paschal vigil.
Be honest about that, Diana. Or otherwise be honest that you are a hypocrite.
Dear Anonymous at 4:17 pm,
DeleteThe NCW is not a special group. In addition, we have our approved Statutes, which tells us that we can celebrate the Easter Vigil. Furthermore, this is what Pope Francis said in his letter to the NCW on April 3, 2014:
"Such words do not in any way modify the Statutes, rather they confirm them: as far as it pertains to the celebrations of the Paschal Vigil and the Sunday Eucharist, mentioned by you, articles 12 and 13, read in their entirety, constitute therefore the regulatory charter of reference."
Notice that not only was the Eucharist mentioned, but also the Paschal Vigil. The pope wrote " as far as it pertains to the CELEBRATION of the Paschal Vigil.........articles 12 and 13........" This statement shows that the Pope is aware that we celebrate the Easter Vigil, and nowhere does he say that we are not suppose to celebrate it.
Nowhere in any of the speeches made by the popes did it say that the NCW is celebrating incorrectly unlike what is written in the entry post. It is very clear from this document that many parishes have resorted to worldly comforts where they shorten the Easter Vigil to meet their needs and desires, which is what the document has stated.
DeleteNCW is incorrectly celebrating the Holy Mass. you can say what ever you want Diana but your organization is not celebrating according to the intention of the church. Catholics loyal to the see of Peter are best not to attend NCW liturgy.
Diana - If you say the NCW is not a special group, why then do they have their own statutes?
DeleteDear Diana at 6.08.
DeleteThe pertinent part of paragraph 94 is this:
"above all in this Vigil, the faithful should come together as one and should experience a sense of ecclesial community"
Now, the NCW tells us that its regular weekly Eucharist is simply another Mass in the parish, and forms part of the Sunday liturgical work of the parish. Ok, so we see that at Easter, there is only one parish Easter Vigil celebration, even when there may be many weekend Masses on any other given weekend.
The celebration of a second vigil by the NCW is inconsistent with what it claims it is within the parish.
Secondly, if the parish were to have an all night Vigil, would that mean that the NCW would not have its own separate celebratiion? If so, the why not work to convince the parish to do that instead? But if not, then you can't argue that the NCW do it because the parish doesn't.
Thirdly, although the Church wishes the Easter Vigil to be celebrated in a special way, that it is not "merely" a regular anticipated Sunday Mass, there is no direct instruction that it should be celebrated throughout the entire night. Only that it should start after sunset and that it should have been completed by sunrise. If sunset is at 8pm, then a Vigil starting at 9pm and concluding at 12am would satisfy this criteria.
Finally, article 13 of the Statutes clearly states that the NCW may celebrate in small communities, distinct, if you like, from the "ordinary" parish masses. But Article 12 makes no statement about the NCW being permitted to celebrate the Vigil distinct from the parish. Why would the Statutes not say this if it was actually intended to be that way?
When the pope refers to article 12, why shouldn't we read and understand that article as it is written without reading into it something that is not there? If it was meant to give permission for the separate vigil, surely the pope would say so, even if the article doesn't?
Dear Anonymous at 11:12 pm,
DeleteYou are correct that there is only one Easter Vigil regardless of how many parishes are celebrating it or of what time. Our Easter Vigil is not separate, but one with all others. The Eucharist is also one.
If the parish has an all night vigil like the NCW, then the goal would have been met for our Statutes says that it is the NCW who will stimulate the parish into a richer celebration. If you want to have an all night vigil, I do not think that would be a problem for us. The question is.....will the people in the parish agree to an all night vigil or would that be too much for them? How many of them would actually come if it was a six hour vigil or even four hour as you suggested of increasing the time to meet the rules of the Church?
Anonymous, the reason that Kiko Arguello wrote the Pope was because some people misunderstood the Pope's statement in February, 2014. Some of the Bishops would not allow the NCW to celebrate the Eucharist and the Easter Vigil. According to Kiko Arguello's interview when he was asked why he wrote to Pope Francis, he stated:
"In the indications given to the families, full of joy in seeing so many children, he said that at times, to find communion with the dioceses where the families are sent, that they could renounce "some details" to foster the ecclesial communion with the diocese. We agree that ecclesial communion is very important, but these words were read out of context and interpreted negatively by some who are not favorable towards the Way: immediately they took away the Eucharist celebrated in community on Saturday night at the Sunday vigil, and eliminated the Paschal Vigil of the community, and this was a terrible harm."
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-backs-neocatechumenal-way-liturgy
And Pope Francis responded to Kiko's letter (capitalization is mine):
"Such words do not in any way modify the Statutes, rather they confirm them: as far as it pertains to the celebrations of the Paschal Vigil and the Sunday Eucharist, MENTIONED BY YOU, articles 12 and 13, read in their entirety, constitute therefore the regulatory charter of reference."
Dear Diana,
Deleteread this again.
""above all in this Vigil, the faithful should come together as one and should experience a sense of ecclesial community"
It is beyond me how you can get from this some sense that the Church is merely making some metaphysical observation that all Easter Vigils "are one". What nonsense.
By this statement the Church clearly intends that there should be one celebration of the Vigil in the local Church - ie the faithful should come together (that is, not fragmented) and should experience ecclesial community (the parish).
As usual, you have not answered the objections raised in my previous post. Rather, you have stubbornly refused to engage in anything more than what you have been told. You are the ultimate bad advertisement for the NCW as you seem to be incapable of reasoning for yourself. You are stuck in a kind of self-afflicted blindness. And what is worse - you wish to inflict the same condition on others.
Dear Anonymous at 10:38 am,
DeleteRead this again:
"However, in some areas where initially the reform of the Easter Vigil was received enthusiastically, it would appear that with the passage of time this enthusiasm has begun to wane. The very concept of the vigil has almost come to be forgotten in some places with the result that it is celebrated as if it were an evening Mass, in the same way and at the same time as the Mass celebrated on Saturday evening in anticipation of the Sunday.
It also happens that the celebrations of the Triduum are not held at the correct times. This is because certain devotions and pious exercises are held at more convenient times and so the faithful participate in them rather than in the liturgical celebrations."
Why don't you come and celebrate with us for six hours? :-)
"Why don't you come and celebrate with us for six hours? :-)"
DeleteWell that's easy. Because you violate the instructions and guidance of the Church in the liturgy. You teach incorrect theology - eg the washing of feet is a sign of forgiveness, rather than a sign of the priesthood.
But apart from that, you have no right to a separate celebration. It is better for the unity of the Church that all Catholics come together in a celebration of the local Church - the parish. if the parish celebration could be improved and become more like the Church intends, lets all try to assist with that goal.
In the meantime, you still haven't answered the objections. You still persist only because of obstinacy. You are still hypocritical, because you quote Paschalis Sollemnitatis selectively, and ignore that important passage of paragraph 94. You have no answer to that except , we will continue to do as we do, and you should join us instead. Arrogance and blasphemy.
Diana, have you been to an Easter Vigil mass here on Guam? And if you have, did you feel like you were only attending a "night" mass?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that the parishes here on Guam are not properly celebrating the reformed Easter Vigil mass and that the parishes here on Guam are included in the statement by the Office of Divine Worship that, "The very concept of the vigil has almost come to be forgotten in some places with the result that it is celebrated as if it were an evening Mass, in the same way and at the same time as the Mass celebrated on Saturday evening in anticipation of the Sunday?"
You must really believe this for you to come out and say that my parish should follow the ncw example. Do those of us, who are neither NCW or followers of Junglewatch, a favor and stop insinuating that the way you celebrate Easter Vigil is better and more meaningful than the way we do. What garbage you are spreading via a post like this? It's insulting that you would lump parishes on Guam in there with the actual parishes the Office of Divine Worship is addressing. Some does not mean all. I'm beginning to think that the NCW is in the wrong place.
Dear Anonymous at 11:36 pm,
DeleteYes, I have been to an Easter Vigil in the parish. And to be honest, with no offense intended....compared to the NCW, the Easter Vigil in the parish is more like an evening mass. I agree with the Vatican. The Easter Vigil in many parishes have been reduced to accommodate people's conveniences. The fact that our young people in the Way were able to stay up for 6-7 hours praising and thanking God is remarkable. And the miracle is that they enjoy doing it. There were no complaints of the long hours.
As a matter of fact, according to information that Kiko Arguello received, he stated:
"The Holy See, in the fundamental document on the Paschal Vigil, Paschalis Solemnitatis, expressed sorrow in seeing that the Paschal Vigil, instead of being "the mother of all vigils" and the center of the liturgical life of the Faithful, has been reduced instead in many parishes to an evening Mass.
Article 12 of the statute states that "the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil." His Eminence, Cardinal [Antonio] Cañizares, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, has precisely underlined this role of the Neocatechumenal communities, saying that the Polish Episcopal Conference, for example, has thanked the Way because it is helping to recuperate and rediscover the importance of the Paschal Vigil in all of Poland."
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-backs-neocatechumenal-way-liturgy
Dear Diana,
DeleteI'm beginning to read more and more that you and others believe your way of worshipping, celebrating is better than the traditional.....so, why doesn't NCW just form your own religion? It is very different from the traditional Catholic and causing so much heartache....
Heck, you could just call it "Neo-Catholic", (like "Eastern Orthodox Catholics" do) and still say you are Catholic. You would just have your own churches and celebrate however you want with no objections! Why do you folks feel as if you need to intrude into the existing churches and create controversy? Even if you say you didn't start it, it does exist, so I'm just saying why not go on your way and do your own thing?
Dear Anonymous at 9:13 am,
DeleteThe Eastern Catholics are NOT separate from us. They are part of the Catholic Church and in union with the Pope. To even think that they form a separate church either shows your ignorance of Catholicism or your desire to be separate from anything that is different from the Latin rite of pre-Vatican II.
Dear Diana, the anon at 9.13 wrote "Eastern ORTHODOX Catholics", not "Eastern Catholics".
DeleteYou seem to be referring to the "Eastern-rite Catholics", while anon refers to Eastern Orthodox, who are still in formal schism and are not "a part of the Catholic Church".
Your reference shows not only your ignorance, but also that you can't read very well.
Anonymous March 31, 2015 at 9:13 AM
DeleteAre you being sarcastic?
We follow.....we pray for the grace to worship...to live a life in communion with Jesus Christ and the Father.
your comments reflect a juvenile....infantile perspective of faith. Must be nice to be so comfortable in life. You must not need Jesus Christ in your life. Good for you.
Do you think everyone who is questioning you attends the Latin mass? I assure you, most of us don't. I, for one, like the regular Mass, in English or Chamorro. And I prefer to follow what is written as the proper way to observe Mass. Call me a skeptic, but just because someone says it is okay does not make it okay for me--especially when it comes to something this important.
DeleteAnd I know the Eastern Catholics are not a separate religion---that's my point exactly. Just as they are still recognized as Catholics but have different practices, so are the Neos. So why not just have your own church to continue to do your own thing? (I realize this will not be acceptable to some people who believe Neo is not Catholic, but that'll be a whole different battle.) I just want to have peace. Don't you? Apparently the two family members cannot co-exist in one house...so maybe the newcomers need to find their own?
Dear Anonymous at 9:44 pm,
DeleteYou say that the Eastern Catholics are not a separate religion; yet, you consider them another church and another family members?? The Eastern Catholics are ONE with the Latin-rite church. They do not form a different church at all.
True peace comes from Jesus Christ. Believe and trust in Him, and you will have peace. The members who are with us chose to join us. You do not have to join us, but do not deny those who want to become mission families and missionaries through the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 3:48 pm,
DeleteI was aware of what he wrote, but I am also aware that he most likely meant "Eastern Catholics" rather than Eastern Orthodox Catholics. And as you can see, he corrected himself in his comment on March 31 at 9:44 pm, by stating:
"And I know the Eastern Catholics are not a separate religion---that's my point exactly. Just as they are still recognized as Catholics but have different practices"
So, anonymous, yes, I can read. But rather than pointing out his error and making a big deal out of it, I responded in a different way where he alone can learn from his own error without my having to point it out to him.
Anonymous March 31, 2015 at 9:44 PM
DeleteDo you really believe that a person.....a Catholic finds definition.....a purpose....a meaning of his or her life by what Church or Mass he or she attends; Neocatechumenal Way; Eastern ....Latin?
It is God who calls; Christ that guides and the Spirit that sustains. People in the Way....over a million worldwide and growing have chosen....have answered YES to the call. Being called to live a Christian life is not easy but we're not alone in our walk.
I pray that where ever you attend mass, you'll find Jesus Christ. I pray that your answer to him will be YES.
I would also ask you to read...reflect on LUKE 4:16-24.
I think I get the gist of what anon @9:13am and @9:44pm is saying, though: to make peace in the Catholic family, why don't the Neos just have their own bldg to worship in and they can do what they want there? The RSM formed priests/presbyters can be assigned there, their table can be permanently set up, their KiKo paintings can be put up, and the regular Catholics won't have to worry about them 'changing' their church bldg. or interfering with their Mass.
DeleteThis is not to say one is better than the other, just to keep peace in the Catholic family. Maybe a better analogy would be: Under one house, but in separate rooms. Each can decorate how they wish, listen to the type of music they prefer, etc.
ReplyDeleteOn Sunday's priest visits my house to say mass for family. After mass we have dinner . However, Holy Thursday night, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, we go to a parish. Sunday evening may have mass for Easter if not attend Easter Vigil.
Problem with NCW don't understand liturgy, mass,unity. NCW should go to a parish and mix with others and stop building their own private church.
DeleteWho pays for these Easter Vigils in Hotels?
Dear Anonymous at 11:45 pm,
DeleteThe NCW members who use the hotels are the ones who pay for it.
What if I'm a member but can't afford to pay for the hotel? In addition, if it's open to the public, as the archbishop states, who pays for all the non-members' attendance?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:16 am,
DeleteGod always provide. In all the hotels that we have held our retreats and Easter Vigils, we have never left a debt behind. The hotel bill is always paid due to the generosity of the members. In other words, many of us pay more than what we are required to pay. The bill would be divided up between the number of members attending. Let's say the hotel bill cost $100 per person. Many people in the Way usually give more, and that would take care of those who are unable to pay. If there are any left over money, that usually goes to the New Evangelization for the mission families and itinerants.
DeleteYou say that Diana but money goes into Apurons pocket for private discretionary spending.
Before what ever is left after the collection, the money goes to the poor. Now it is very difficult to be accountable if the left overs are for other purposes.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:45 am,
DeleteDo you really think that the hotel is free????
ReplyDeleteDiana make peace with Guam Catholics. Have you lived the way Christ taught us? Have you prayed the Rosary today? Have you reflected on salvation?
The questions is Bell, do you? Do you believe what on the prayers that you have done? Who are you to question her prayers, is like asking a Jew if you have done your purification. Your question is absurd, this is none of your concern. In the Gospel say, when you fast, do not show to anyone and when you pray, pray in a room and lock the door.
DeleteI wish I could wash the feet of Tim Rohr tonight. He needs cleaning and he needs our compassion. because he is apart from our Jesus. He struggles again and again to come closer to Him but he is unable. Because Tim is helplessly entangled in his own web of misdeeds, spun by the devil. Tim, when I would wash your feet, I would make sure you feel the love of our Jesus that is the only thing that could free you from the trap of the devil. Please, do not turn away from your only chance to change your heart for Jesus! Peace be with you at the Day of Resurrection.
ReplyDeleteSurely this is a joke? A public admonishment under the guise of "love". Pure judgement and arrogance at work again - all wth while using the precious name of Our Lord as a justificaion. Shameful
Delete