From 2015-03-06 Vatican Radio (highlights are mine.)
(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis received in audience on Friday (March 6th) members of the Catholic missionary movement, the Neocatechumenal Way, and thanked them for the great benefit they bring to the Church.
Please find below a translation into English of the Pope’s address to the Neocatechumenal members:
Dear brothers and sisters,
Peter's task is to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith. So you too have wanted with this gesture to ask the Successor of Peter to confirm your call, to support your mission, to bless your charism. And I want to confirm your call, support your mission and bless your charism. I’m doing that not because I’ve been paid to: No! (laughs) I’m doing it because I want to. You will go forth in the name of Christ into the world to bring His Gospel: Christ will precede, Christ will accompany and Christ will fulfill the salvation of which you are bearers!
Together with you I greet all the Cardinals and Bishops who accompany you today and who in their dioceses support your mission. In particular I greet the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández, with Father Mario Pezzi: I also would like to express my appreciation and my encouragement for the great benefit they bring to the Church through the Way. I always say that the Neocatechumenal Way does great good in the Church.
As Kiko said, our meeting today is a missionary commissioning, in obedience to what Christ asked us: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.” And I am particularly glad that this mission is carried out thanks to Christian families, united in a community, who have the mission to give witness to our faith that attract people to the beauty of the Gospel, in the words of Christ: “This is how all will know that you are my disciples"(cf. Jn 13:34), and "be one and the world may believe" (cf. Jn 17:21). These communities, called by the Bishops, are formed by a priest and four or five families, with children including grown-up ones, and are a"missio ad gentes", with a mandate to evangelize non-Christians. Non-Christians who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ and the many non-Christians who’ve forgotten who Jesus Christ was, who is Jesus Christ: baptized non-Christians but who have forgotten their faith because of secularization, worldliness and many other things. Re-awaken that faith! So, even before words, it is your witness of life that manifests the heart of Christ's revelation: that God loves man to the point of laying down His life for us and that he was raised by the Father to give us the grace to give our lives for others. Today’s world badly needs this great message. How much solitude, how much suffering, how much distance from God in the many peripheries of Europe and America, and in many cities of Asia! Today, in every latitude, humanity greatly needs to hear that God loves us and that love is possible! These Christian communities, thanks to you missionary families, have the essential task of making this message visible. And what is this message? “Christ is risen, Christ lives. Christ lives amongst us””
You have received the strength to leave everything behind and set off for distant lands through a process of Christian initiation, experienced and lived in small communities, where you have rediscovered the immense riches of your Baptism. This is the Neocatechumenal Way, a true gift of Providence to the Church of our time, as my predecessors have already stated; especially St. John Paul II when he said: "I recognize the Neocatechumenal Way as an itinerary of Catholic formation, valid for society and for our times" (Epist. Whenever, August 30, 1990: AAS 82 [1990], 1515). The Way is based on the three dimensions of the Church which are the Word, Liturgy and Community. So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. It is a great consolation to see all of this, because it confirms that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church, even today, and that He meets the needs of modern man.
On several occasions I have insisted that the Church has to move from a pastoral ministry of simple conservation to a decidedly missionary pastoral focus (cf. ibid., N. Evangelii gaudium, 15). How many times, within the Church, do we keep Jesus inside and don’t let him go out. …. How many times! This is the most important thing to do if we do not want the waters to stagnate within the Church. For years now the Way has been undertaking these missio ad gentes among non-Christians, for an implantatio Ecclesiae, a new presence of the Church, where the Church does not exist or is no longer able to reach people. "How much joy you give us with your presence and your activity!" - said Blessed Pope Paul VI during the very first audience with you (May 8, 1974: Teachings of Pope Paul VI, XII [1974], 407). I also make these words my own and encourage you to move forward, entrusting you to the Blessed Virgin Mary who inspired the Neocatechumenal Way. May she intercede for you with her divine Son.
My dearly beloved, may the Lord accompany you. Go forth, with my Blessing.
During the Lenten Announcement, which I published under my blog site, I said that the Pope would be meeting with the NCW very soon. The NCW on Guam already knew that this meeting would take place because the news was given to us during the Lenten Announcement.
ReplyDeleteThis is from the Pope's speech. You heard it yourself from him. Pope Francis stated, "So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. "
The Pope said the NCW is OBEDIENT just as we have always been saying over and over and over and over. He found us to be obedient, which explains why he ceased all investigations into the Way. Those allegations were unfounded.
Timmy didn't publish the entire speech of the Pope. And what's more is that he's lying to his jungle followers. Tim s wrote:
ReplyDeleteHowever, as previously mentioned, with the NCW there is the added complication that Kiko and Carmen have (in their statute) set themselves up as "dictators for life". Whereas groups like the Focolare can renew themselves by electing new leadership (as can religious orders), the NCW has no such option.
Dear Anonymous at 8:15 pm,
DeleteOf course, he is not going to publish the entire speech of the Pope. Everything that the Pope said to Kiko and the NCW were positive. There is not one single negative thing he said about Kiko or the Way.
I have no idea what Tim Rohr means that we do not elect new leaders. Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez are the founders of the Way. When they are gone, we do have an election. It says so in the Statutes. Election of the International Team is outlined in Title VI of our Statutes.
Dear Diana 8:21: A clarification, if I may--Tim Rohr's comment means that the election takes place only when Kiko and Carmen are gone (just as you have said). The other groups he refers to can replace the leadership at any election and don't have to wait until the current leader is gone.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:41 pm,
DeleteThe Statutes of the Way was approved by Rome. If Rome wanted us to elect a leader while Kiko and Carmen were still alive, they would have stipulated it in the approved statutes, but they did not. Therefore, we follow what Rome has approved for the Way.
They are becoming desperate! During a meeting organized by the Concerned Catholics in Agana last week, they kicked out someone who dared to express a different opinion from theirs!!! What a beautiful manifestation of charity!!!
DeleteDiana at 8:55: Because thats how Kiko and Carmen wrote it...which is Tim's point. The other groups' statutes/by-laws provide for a change in leadership should the membership want one. NCW doesn't, thus the "dictators for life" comment.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:27 am,
DeleteIt does not matter who WROTE it. What matters is who APPROVED it. It was the Holy See who approved it, and we are obedient to follow what the Holy See approves. If you feel that the Holy See was wrong in approving it, then please write to them and let them know. Then you can wait for their response. In the meantime, the NCW will obey the Pope.
This dictators for life argument is so ignorant that it discredits rohr. Doesn't he know how many orders elect their leaders for life? Abbots and abbesses of plenty of orders are elected for life. Not to mention that the pope is elected for life. Why doesn't he call the pope a dictator?
DeleteThank you for publishing his speech, Diana.
ReplyDeleteI'm seeing how the Pope supports the missionary work of the NCW.
Pope Francis said "These communities, called by the Bishops, are formed by a priest and four or five families, with children including grown-up ones, and are a"missio ad gentes", with a mandate to evangelize non-Christians. Non-Christians who’ve never heard about Jesus Christ and the many non-Christians who’ve forgotten who Jesus Christ was, who is Jesus Christ: baptized non-Christians but who have forgotten their faith because of secularization, worldliness and many other things."
But, I am seeing evangelisation taking place within the Catholic churches! Why is this happening? It's almost as if the Neos feel the non-neos are not 'Catholic enough'. Maybe that is a big part of the problem that is going on in our churches? The phrase "preaching to the choir" comes to mind when I see the people giving their testimonies. Shouldn't they evangelise non-Christians, those who don't know Jesus Christ, or the Catholics who have strayed from their church?
Dear Anonymous at 8:21 pm,
DeleteIt takes Catholics to go out and preach to non-Christians. So, where do we get these Catholics who are interested in the new evangelization? To evangelize to non-Christians, we start with ourselves. Any Catholic who is interested in this new evangelization is welcome to join the NCW. These Catholics also need to be trained in the New Evangelization just like the RMS priests. There are Guam people in the NCW who stood up to be mission families and itinerants. Their names were taken down so they can be prepared to go out and evangelize non-Christians.
After this speech of Pope Francis, it is crystal clear. If you are against the Neocatechumenal Way, you are against Pope! And if you are against the Pope, you are NOT a Catholic. How else can one put it? Can it be clearer than this?
Delete9:35- you can agree and not agree with the pope on this issue because it is not an issue of faith and morals directly. So everyone is free to formulate his or her opinion if the ncw is good for a person or not. By no means does agreeing or disagreeing with any movement or group like the ncw make you a catholic or not a catholic. Do not judge people that is up to God alone ;)
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteAnonymous 9:35 did not say anything about disagreements. Disagreeing is one thing. Being against is a different matter. Jesus said, "Those who are not against us is for us." (Mark 9:38-39).
How is disagreeing and being against different? Many ppl disagree with the practices of the ncw so they are going 'against' what the pope said. But that has nothing to do with being catholic. Being in a group does not make you more catholic than not being in one. It can help but not always and surely not for everyone.
DeleteAs far as i know you 'choose' when to listen and post here what the pope says too. I even heard ppl from the ncw say they don't understand how the pope could say something like you don't have to be rabbits to be good christians. Because they listen to the catechists tell them how many babies they should have. That is not being a responsible parent for sure, which was the point the pope wanted to make.
Dear Keith,
DeleteYou don't know??? I quoted scripture in which Christ said that those who are not against us is for us, and you do not understand.
Disagreeing is one thing. When one calls the Way "evil" (as it is often done in the jungle), that is no longer a disagreement. One would now be against or opposed to the Way. It is very clear that Anonymous 9:35 said nothing about disagreement. What makes us Catholic is our faith and our union with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
And for your information, the Catechists never dictate to anyone how many children should have. Instead, they teach that abortion and contraceptives are wrong.......which is the same thing the Catholic Church teaches. They say that they should be open to life, not open to death.
Dear Anonymous @ March 7, 2015 at 8:21 PM
DeleteWhere do you think the "baptized non-christians" mentioned by the Holy Father are? Could one of them be in the choir? Then it is worth preaching to it. Or do you think that one is a Christian by virtue of being a choir member?
If you look at studies regarding church-going Catholics keeping the practice of the faith in their lives (such as regards contraception for example), you can notice that going to Church does not by itself make one a Christian.
Why, if they feel they do not need the itinerary of faith offered by the NCW, can't people put up with some "preaching to the choir" for the sake of someone who perhaps needs that and is perhaps right there in the choir next to them?
Keith,
DeletePlease tell me in all honesty, that you have heard a catechist tell someone how many kids they should have, or else perhaps you should apologize for the untruthful sentence you have written.
In the scrutinies, catechist will always ask, how many children do you have, can have more children, why not be open to life? Very subtle indeed.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:34 am,
DeleteThe catechists never ask a couple if they can have more children. Why? Because we NEVER teach that it is up to the couple to decide if they CAN have more children or not. The NCW ALWAYS teach that children are God's gifts. So, if a couple does not have any children, they certainly do not impose on them to have children. Because ONLY God is the one to give them children. It is not up to the couple. The NCW always teach to be open to life, not to be open to death.
Dear nagyszakall @9:48am: I think you took the idiom too literally, although, I get your point that not all who attend mass are true to the faith. And, may I ask, where else do the Neos go to recruit members? I haven't heard of a concerted effort anywhere else on island....
Delete9:53pm i know of a family in the ncw where they wanted to stop at their second child. By some 'miracle' they had two more and think about having a fifth child also. I am sure that God did not whisper in their heart and tell them you should have more children.
DeleteDiana, I'm sorry but it is the couple together with God (that is after praying) that decide if it is time to have a child or not. children are God's gifts but they are the parents' responsibility too. If the parents do not plan to a certain degree it is irresponsible for their own family and their new child simple as that.
Dear Anonymous on March 9, 2015 at 12:07 PM,
DeleteI am not in possession of detailed facts of your beautiful island, but I can tell you that in my parish more than half of the people in the communities are persons who have been called to catechesis not from the parish masses but through acquaintances. They are persons who had not been raised in the practice of the faith or had abandoned it. They were definitely not from the choir.
Be open to life meaning; have more children do not be selfish.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteAnd this is why even the Church supports the couples when they decide to practice some form of abstenance even if it is to revitalize their marriage. We support those couples who go out on dates if after having children. With that being said, we also support the Chuch's teaching on contraceptives. But we have NEVER impose a couple to have more children simply because a child is God's gift. There are couples who cannot have children and chose to adopt. These adopted children are still God's gift and God gave the couple the grace to adopt them despite the hardship of raising them. Even Tim Rohr did not plan to have 11 children, but God gave him 11 children.
Ok that's very good, however do you support natural family planning? Because the church supports that, but to my knowledge the way does not.
DeleteDear Keith,
Delete1. did these friends of yours tell you that their catechists told them to have more children or did you make an assumption?
2. No one disputes that having children is a decision to be taken within the sanctity of marriage and not to be interfered with by anyone. But isn't it the mission of the members of the community of faith (not just ncw community) to encourage and strengthen each other in the faith? And here I make an assumption: what if this couple changed their mind as part of a prossess of growing in faith?
Dear Keith,
DeleteWhere in the world are you getting your information???? You are not even in the Way. Are you getting your information straight from the catechists mouth or from someone else??
I am asking to be informed. Regardless where I get my information from. So that is a yes? You do support natural family planning?
DeleteTo anonymous- i will ask ;) since that is the only way to be sure.
Diana i was in the way for a bit more than a year. In that year I felt like my faith was becoming childish again so I took the desicion of leaving. As soon as that happened, all the ppl who were my 'brothers and sisters' for the past year, didn't even ask why I left. They never even bothered to message or say we should meet. Let me note I have other friends and i am not desperate to make these things up, you wanted facts these are facts. Also i tried organizing things to meet up with them and no one even answered. So am I assuming this stuff too?
A depressed girl and a guy whose parents are catechists were not let to visit a psychologist because the catechists said so. This is also not an assumption as I heard it from multiple people in the way itself, the difference being that I challenge the catechists teachings but they don't, they are told to accept because whatever the catechists say comes from God.
So please do not think I am a stupid desperate guy. I see the problems for myself and I wanted to arrange them, however It seems useless.
Dear Keith,
DeleteWhere you get your information is important. It was not too long ago when John Toves came to Guam claiming that his cousin was molested by the Archbishop.........a cousin he never spoke to. And John Toves stated that he heard about his cousin's molestation through another person. So, Toves was a third party making claims of molestation allegations he only heard from someone else.
As for your friends who did not bother to message you back, you are making assumptions. It would be best if you at least hear from one of them as to why they did not message you back rather than create a story about it.
According to regional statistics: The highest number of communities in the world in a country per capita is found in Malta, which has 100 communities in an island of 400,000 persons, which is the equivalent of twice the number of communities both in Italy and in Spain. If the NCW is as "bad" or "evil" there as you claim it to be....there would not be 100 communities born.
The thing is.....you already left the community and are now happy in a different organization. The NCW is not for everyone. Apparently, it is not for you as you already left. But why do you continue to "bad mouth" the NCW??
baptized non-Christians but who have forgotten their faith because of secularization, worldliness and many other things.
ReplyDeleteHard pill to swallow for the some; not understood by others; rejected by the rest. No wonder the road to eternal life....heaven is narrow.
JSB.
JSB, meaning you feel, think that you are better than the rest of us. It is normal for NCW to feel superior...because they go the Word, Liturgy and prepare and monthly day retreat.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:21 am,
DeleteIt was the Pope who said those words. JSB was only quoting the Pope. How you interpret the Pope's words and then claim that the NCW is acting superior is the problem. The NCW never said that they were better than the rest of their Catholic brothers.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteYou state:
"This is from the Pope's speech. You heard it yourself from him. Pope Francis stated, "So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, ........."
"So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; " - I know many non-Neo people who this can apply to, also..
Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday - I know many non-neos who go to their Saturday Mass on a regular basis. It's like their own community, too.
However........Just like the NCW Mass, the regular Masses can be filled with liturgical abuses that need to be corrected.
God still works amongst all the liturgical abuses - we overwhelmingly see that in the fruits of the NCW. Diana, you always comment that the Pope would have excommunicated Kiko if their Mass alterations were not approved.
The Pope will not excommunicate Kiko for this, just like the Pope will not excommunicate all those responsible for the various liturgical abuses in the non-Neo Masses. The Popes try their hardest to straighten the bent reed. We are ALL bent reeds.The Popes, very patiently, through their encyclicals, speeches, books, etc.,have tried to correct the liturgical abuses.
Does the fact that each Pope's refusal to put the NCW's "deletions and additions" through with written approval not bother you? The NCW's own prepared written approval was rejected by Pope Benedict XVI in January 2012.
How is it that Pope Francis knows of the division that this Mass has caused, yet has never re-written the NCW Statutes to include the "deletions and additions" of the NCW Mass. The only approved change was the move of the Sign of Peace and this was "written" in detail. Do not the other changes warrant the same written consideration if they have been approved?
Dear Anonymous at 12:35 am,
DeleteIf you feel that there are abuses in the regular Masses that you attend, then why don't you correct those? You do not attend the NCW Mass, so why concern yourself with it? If Pope John Paul II can excommunicate the archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Founder of the Society of St. Pius X for disobedience, then the Pope can also excommunicate the Founder of the Necoatechumenal Way for disobedience. It was not the NCW who caused the division within the Church. It was Satan who caused those divisions.
Diana, Tim twists the Pope's words around and tells lies about it.
DeleteFrom Rohr:
"He even goes on to underscore this point by mockingly suggesting that Kiko paid him to do it!
"I’m doing that not because I’ve been paid to: No! (laughs) I’m doing it because I want to. "
The pope blesses hundreds of groups every year, you will not find any example of him even suggesting a joke about being paid to give a blessing. But he does so with Kiko!"
Just disregard what Tim Rohr says. He is biased, fed by personal vendetta against Archbishop, sick with envy. Pray for him.
DeleteBe careful of boasting that u know the path to righteousness. Pride always leads to one's downfall. Peace.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:41 am,
DeleteThere is nothing boastful about publishing the Pope's positive speech to the NCW.
Dear 5:41 AM,
DeleteDon't be silly. Go to the Jungle, and tell them the same thing.
You might as well tell the world not to ever be happy if they learn of good news because it MIGHT be "boasting."
Diana,
DeleteThe Pope said "And I want to confirm your call, support your mission and bless your charism."
He described it as CHARISM.
I can clearly recall Tim attacking the NCW on this word because he said that the NCW is NOT a charism.
Oh Tim, please just get over it.
Dear Anonymous at 11:55 am,
DeleteWhy the sad face? Rejoice and be happy!! The Pope supports the NCW, and that is wonderful news! :-)
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletere your: March 8, 2015 at 5:41 AM
You state:
"If you feel that there are abuses in the regular Masses that you attend, then why don't you correct those?"
To that I can honestly say: "Yes I have, yes I am, and yes I will continue to do so - because nothing but the Best for our Lord."
You state: "You do not attend the NCW Mass, so why concern yourself with it?"
I do not attend the NCW Mass because I can't - I am not welcome to it. My kneeling at their Eucharistic Prayer and receiving Communion on my knees with my mouth open and tongue out will "irritate" not only the members of the NCW, but also the priest who has no idea how he can accommodate me. (This is ALWAYS an acceptable form for receiving our Lord and Savior; and, NO PRIEST CAN DENY COMMUNION THIS WAY - yet the NCW do. - At their lst convivence here, they pressured and convinced a family who ordinarily would receive on the tongue - to receive in their hands. They no longer belong to the Way.)
On a different note, I was in charge of Eucharistic Adoration years ago at one Parish which suddenly decided to abandon kneeling at the Eucharistic Prayer. No matter how much info I was able to find saying that removing the kneeling was not allowed - even the GIRM , the Pastor convinced "seasoned" Catholics that this was permissible. I couldn`t believe it. The pastor, who didn`t support this ministry to our Lord, removed me from my position of charge in Eucharistic Adoration; he stated that the reasons were to give someone else a turn, but also I was being terminated because of my refusal to stand during Consecration. Later, the priest also tried removing the Agnus Dei, by saying it wasn`t his `part`` in the Mass.
The people were so used to saying this prayer with the priest, so when he stop saying it, the prayer never was said. Thankfully the parishioners saw the error, and corrected it.
Years later when the new Roman Missal came out, kneeling was re-introduced to the Parish. And, now with the NCW, it`s being taken out again.
You say:.
``If Pope John Paul II can excommunicate the archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Founder of the Society of St. Pius X for disobedience, then the Pope can also excommunicate the Founder of the Necoatechumenal Way for disobedience.``
Pope Francis is pastoral, he carefully and gradually,(to some, too gradually) straightens the bent reed. Only when we see ourselves as that `bent reed`` do we fully appreciate the Pope`s patience with us - much like the Father`s.
The way the one million members of the NCW put Kiko on a pedestal, excommunicating him would surely cause a schism.
It reminds me of when Communion in the hand came to be. The Pope was against it; but, saw the numbers of people who had already adopted it as the way to receive Jesus. That Pope, and those after, have never liked Communion in the hand; but, have allowed it (with certain stipulations). It was a lot better to have allowed it, than to deny those ignorant of the reasons why it shouldn`t be done, no Jesus. How sad for Jesus - how we offend Him. We prefer not to seek the truth in this regard, because we don`t want to change. . Hardness of Heart. Lord, soften our hearts.
You state:
``It was not the NCW who caused the division within the Church. It was Satan who caused those divisions.``
Of course it was Satan - our war is not with one another, it is with Satan. He is the one that has entered the Sanctuary; and, we should be praying and fasting and asking St Michael and the angels to help rid him.`
Dear Anonymous at 2:36 pm,
DeleteIf I were to go to a Latin Mass, they will not accept me receiving the Body of Christ by hand. If I go to an Eastern Catholic Mass, I also cannot kneel nor can I drink the Blood of Christ by cup. A Christian is called to die for their brother rather than impose their will and culture on him. In other words, I do not make it an issue. I understand that when I am facing Pope Benedict who actually prefers people to kneel and receive the Body of Christ by tongue, I will give up my will to do what the Pope prefers rather than insist on FORCING my way. Jesus said to follow the SPIRIT of the law rather than the letter of the law.
Tim Rohr is so brilliant and smart it seems like everyone next to him is dumb. He so critical to insult everyone's comment in the jungle and mock the ESL seminarian. Last time I check the recent Pope speaks 5 to six languages. He is so arrogant he should be poster child for Catholic for dummies.
ReplyDeleteRe: boasting and being careful/humble. It was told to me by Father Santiago. Again, be careful not tp boast, it leads to pride which opens the door to evil.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe:March 8, 2015 at 8:56 PM
Latin Masses have written permission; they have retained the NORM - "receiving" Communion on the tongue. This NORM cannot be removed from "any" Mass of the Roman Rite. The "indult" special permission to have Communion in the hand, was not desired; so, they didn't ask for that "written" permission. The "indult" of Communion in the hand, however, can be removed by a Bishop or by the Pope..
And,.......
the Eastern Catholic Mass is an entirely different RITE.
The NCW did not want to be a different Rite; they wanted to remain part of the Roman Rite; but, they don't follow the Roman Missal/GIRM. Here lies the problem, which I might add should pose no problem in correcting, since the NCW love the Lord more than life itself One word to correct from Kiko would do it.
You said, "A Christian is called to die for their brother rather than impose their will and culture on him."
In my country, our culture was imposed upon with the NCW culture. Not too long ago, Pope Francis dealt with culture bombardment in one of the Audiences with the NCW. When cameras panned the audience, you could see the shock and puzzlement of the NCW members. Our culture (with the kneeling before the Lord during Consecration, receiving Communion on the tongue while kneeling, the ability to listen to a homily given by a priest or deacon without having to hear congregation echoes, taking time after Mass to quietly contemplate His goodness and thank Him without having to dance around the altar, being able to sing Come Holy Ghost or the Our Father in Latin or any of the many beautiful songs we're familiar with, at Mass, etc) was imposed upon by the NCW.
Again, I agree with all the Popes who have commended the NCW in the other areas....opening the Word of God on a regular basis, adherence to Humanae Vitae (I love to see their big families), zeal for evangelization, willingness to go to other countries, vocations, but................like the Popes, I await the day when they will honour the Lord;s Mass without the liturgical abuses. The community Masses on Saturday Nights were approved provided they met the directions of the approved liturgical books, and their Masses were to be only a "stepping stone" to the "regular" Sunday Masses with the "whole" congregation. They were never meant to be a Mass that was "preferred" (even if their Masses were free of liturgical abuses.)
I noticed, on Zenit, that Kiko made mention that the Audience of Friday March 6 contained no "buts" this time by Pope Francis. After seeing the disappointment and bewilderment in the faces of the previous-mentioned Audience with the "buts", I understand why. These people are doing the will of God as best as they know it. God sees their heart; and, so does Pope Francis. God is merciful; and, so is Pope Francis. He will not break the bent reed.
We need you NCW in the pews at the regular Masses. We need to be ONE in this regard.
Then, the whole Church can benefit from your charism which has produced many good fruits,
Dear Anonymous at 8:56 pm,
DeleteWhy do you desire us to be in the pews in order for us to be ONE?? We are already one. Therein lies the problem. I do not need people who love the Latin Mass to be with me in a regular Mass or an NCW Mass to be one with them. I am already one with them. The angels and saints are in Heaven, but they are also one with us despite that they are not there physically. Their spiritual presence is enough.
Furthermore, our rite is already approved and accepted by the Pope, and you cannot take that away from us. Since you feel uncomfortable being with us, then stay in your traditional Latin Mass.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletere March 9, 2015 at 6:25 AM
I do not go to a traditional Latin Mass.
I sense your frustration with all the correspondence I have sent. It is the same frustration my pastor exhibited when I tried to convince him that kneeling was not to be taken out of our non-neo Mass during the Eucharistic Prayer (see my entry March 8, 2015 at 2:36 PM). I've always tried to be charitable in presenting facts; but it didn't help. But, with the new Roman Missal's appearance, kneeling was reinstated - even though the old GIRM had never allowed its removal in the first place.
To be ONE is to be united.
My desire for this unity is the same as Pope Saint John Paul II desired when after his Eucharistic Encyclical and Redemptionis Sacramentum (2003,2004) he had Cardinal Arinze give the NCW the directive of 2005. The Mass was to be open to all, and the NCW had two years to change their way of Communion so that people, like me, could go to their Mass and receive Communion on the tongue (NORM). This never happened. This is division. This is disunity. This is not ONE. This is not of God. This among other things never came to pass.
My desire is also the same as Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus desired, who in 2012 denied the NCW their "additions and deletions."'
Although my attempts to show you the NCW Mass should be corrected, have failed, I don't feel defeated. After all, if the NCW never listened to the Popes in this regard, why should they listen to me?
Shalom.
Dear Anonymous at 9:12 am,
DeleteI assume that you go to the Traditional Latin Mass simply because you cannot compromise on receiving Holy Communion by hand. Your idea of being one has nothing to do with unity, but uniformity, which the Pope warns us against. According to Pope Francis:
The Holy Father touched on several themes in his address to the group, beginning with the idea of “unity in diversity.” “Unity does not imply uniformity,” the Pope said. “It does not necessarily mean doing everything together or thinking in the same way. Nor does it signify a loss of identity. Unity in diversity is actually the opposite: it involves the joyful recognition and acceptance of the various gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to each one and the placing of these gifts at the service of all members of the Church.”
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/10/31/pope_seek_the_unity_which_is_the_work_of_the_holy_spirit/1109856
What you seek is for all Catholics to be in the same uniform. Also, who are you to tell us that we should be corrected??? Are you the Pope??
Dear person who does not go to Latin mass but would like to impose tridintine style on everyone because he thinks he knows better than the pope, no wait, better than 6 popes: enough!
DeleteIt is small minded to think there is only 1 form of acceptable worship: it is SUPERSTITIOUS! (Yes I rexognize you) NCW is not going to stop following the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because YOU say so. Who do you think you are? Desist with your interminable quotations of canon law and roman missal. Any ignorant person with no understanding and with access to Google and no other job can do the same. Are you retired? Sometimes older people have nostalgic ideas about the past and struggle with living in the present reality. Very different is to understand the ordinance than it is to quote it. your misunderstanding of your own faith should not subjugate us to your inane lectures.
Dear Diana and Anonymous, ll:20 and l:31 respectively
ReplyDeleteIn my post of March 9, 2015 at 6:25 AM, I stated:
"I do NOT go to a traditional Latin Mass.
And, furthermore, I neither retired, or small-minded. I would say that I have been open-minded to the NCW Community. I love the members; I am good friends with many and have had many cordial conversations with some of their priests. I have often said to them I would love to be part of the Way when they open up Scripture; however, I would not participate in their Masses. I was not welcomed to do this.
Did not the Popes say that the NCW Mass must be open to everyone?
Did not the Popes say that Communion on the tongue in the "Roman Rite" cannot be denied to those who wish to receive that way?
Hypothesis:
To see if the NCW Mass will be possible if Non-Neos go to their Mass.
Method/Procedure:
Non-Neos go to the NCW Mass - kneel at the Eucharistic Prayer, and kneel at Communion with the mouths open and tongues out to receive our Lord.
Conclusion:
????????? Dear Diana and Anonymous, kneeling would be possible for us to do (although it would cause bad feelings); but, what about receiving our Lord? Will the NCW deny our Lord to those on their knees and with tongue awaiting? If so, is that the will of God? Are we ONE with God? Or is this divisive?
The Popes have NEVER denied the Lord in Communion to the members of the NCW, even though they have on numerous occasions tried to gently (they will not break the bent reed) correct the "deletions and additions" in their Masses.
May we all be ONE.
Dear Anonymous at 12:19 am,
DeleteThe Pope also said that the NCW has its own liturgy, and we have the approval of Rome to follow it. We will follow Rome....not YOU.
Dear Diana @5:32,
DeleteAnon @12:19 piqued my curiosity, though. Are non-neos welcomed to attend a Neo mass? And if one should prefer to receive communion on the tongue, would that be accommodated?
Thank you for your response.
Dear Anonymous at 8:07 am,
DeleteIt cannot be accommodated because it would be a grave liturgical abuse in that the priest did not receive communion yet. The NCW receives Holy communion together with the priest. If you wish to attend the NCW Mass, you are always welcome, but you must accept our liturgy, which was approved by Rome. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Where exactly does the pope say you have your own liturgy please and that it is approved? (please don't tell me it's oral because if the pope wanted all the catholics to know he would have either wrote it down officially or said it on worldwide media where a recording was made and he would have said it very clearly like he does every time. I should also say that these speehes do not fall under the pope's infallibility so mistakes are possible i am not saying there were any but there could have been because not everything the pope says is infallible)
DeleteNeocatechumenal Way receives strong papal endorsement
DeleteCatholic World News - March 06, 2015
Pope Francis gave his full support to the Neocatechumenal Way in a March 6 meeting with 7,000 members of the movement.
“I confirm your calling, I support your mission, and I bless your charism,” the Pope told the group. “It is your witness of life that demonstrates the heart of Christ’s revelation.”
The Pope directed part of his talk to the 200 families of the Neocatechumenal Way who will soon embark on missionary work, forming small communities in various parts of the world and reaching out to non-Christians. “Our meeting today,” the Pope remarked, “is a missionary response in obedience to Christ's instruction; 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.’”
Pope Francis told the group that he has often spoken of “the need for the Church to pass from a pastoral ministry of simple conversion to a decisively missionary pastoral ministry.” He endorsed the approach taken by the Neocatechumenal Way:
You have received the strength to leave everything and to depart for distant lands thanks to a path of Christian initiation, lived in small communities, where you have rediscovered the immense richness of your Baptism. This is the Neocatechumenal Way, a true gift of Providence to the Church in our time.
Kiko Arguello, the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way, told the Zenit news service that he was delighted with the Pope’s expression of support. “We are amazed by the love he has shown us,” he said.
Arguello, whose movement has sometimes encountered criticism because of its distinctive liturgical practices, and has occasionally clashed with diocesan bishops, underlined the importance of the families sent out by the Neocatechumenal Way to establish beachheads for evangelization. “The Christian family, open to live, is a salvation for the world,” he said.
Dear Keith,
DeleteYou told me that the liturgy of the Way does not bother you and was never an issue for you. Now, you are asking about the liturgy? Has it now become an issue for you?
The Pope does not let all Catholics know every single liturgy. There are 9 liturgies in the Roman rite. Did the Pope made you know all of them?? Did the Pope also made you aware of the liturgies of all the Eastern Catholics?
John Paul II , February 10, 1983: Address of the Holy Father to the Neocatechumenal Communities :
ReplyDeleteCelebrate the Eucharist and, above all, Easter, with true piety, with great dignity, with love for the liturgical rites of the Church, with exact observance of the standards established by competent authorities, with the will of communion with all the brothers [... ]
Do not close yourself, isolating yourself from the life of the parish or diocesan Community [...] Therefore, the legal rules, as well as the liturgical, must be observed without carelessness and without omissions .
Congregation for Divine Worship , December 1, 2005: Letter to the Neocatechumenal Way (signed by Cardinal Francis Arinze and destined to Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández and Father Mario Pezzi):
[...] I am to inform the decisions of the Holy Father .
In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way will accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything.
(...)
5. On the way to receive Holy Communion, is granted to the Neocatechumenal a transition time (no more than two years) to pass from the widespread manner in its communities to receive Holy Communion ( seated , use of a table placed at the center the church instead of the altar dedicated in the sanctuary) to the normal way for the whole Church of receiving Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must journey towards the manner provided in the liturgical books for the distribution of the Body and Blood of Christ.
(...)
In short, the Neocatechumenal Way, in the celebration of the Holy Mass, follow the approved liturgical books , having in mind what is explained above under the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
Benedict XVI, January 12, 2006: Speech to the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way :
Precisely to help the Neocatechumenal Way to render even more effective its evangelizing action in communion with all the People of God, recently the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments recently imparted to you my name certain norms concerning the Eucharistic Celebration, after the trial period that had granted the Servant of God John Paul II. I am certain that these norms that reflect what is provided in the liturgical books approved by the Church, you will be carefully observed.
part 2:
ReplyDeletePontifical Council for the Laity, June 13, 2008: Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way :
Art. 13: "Eucharist":
§ 3. In the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities will follow the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite , except for the explicit concessions from the Holy See. [49] Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds, the neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining in place.
[Note 49] See. BENEDICT XVI, Address to the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way of January 12, 2006 : Notitiae 41 (2005) 554-556; Congregation for Divine Worship, Letter dated December 1, 2005 : Notitiae 41 (2005) 563-565; Notification of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way, in L'Osservatore Romano, December 24, 1988: "The Congregation consents that among the adaptations provided by the Instruction Actio pastoralis, nn. 6-11, the groups of the mentioned "Way" may receive communion under both species, always with unleavened bread, and move, "experimentally", the rite of peace after the Universal Prayer. "
Note: the Statute, in note 49, confirms that the only two special liturgical granted by the Holy See to the Way in derogation of the liturgical books approved for the whole Church are just moving the "sign of peace" before the Offertory (as in Ambrosian rite), and go to Communion "standing, remaining in their places."
Benedict XVI, January 20, 2012: Address of the Holy Father to the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way :
The celebration in the small communities, regulated by the liturgical books, which should be followed faithfully , and with the special approval in the Statutes of the Way ...
Francis, 1 February 2014: Hearing communities of the Neocatechumenal Way :
Communion is essential: it can sometimes be better to give up living in all the details what your itinerary would require , in order to ensure unity among the brothers who form the only ecclesial community, which must always feel part. A ' other indication: wherever you go, you will do well to think that the Spirit of God always comes before us. [...] From this comes the need for special attention to the cultural context in which families you go to work ... [...] The freedom of each individual must not be forced, and you must also respect the eventual choice of those who decide to try out the Way, other forms of Christian life to help him grow in response to the call of the Lord.
These are all the times throughout the years where the popes emphasize that you remain faithful to the liturgical books. IF you have approval to have the eucharist like you do, why would they keep on repeating the same thing? I don't think they would keep on repeating it every time a public recording is held with the ncw if everything was being done correctly. And another thing, this is to show that yes the popes like the idea and think it is a good idea to have communities like the ncw and other groups (even I think so, and that is why I initially joined the ncw) and they will keep on trying to emphasize true unity in the church until hopefully they get the message across to all the groups, including the ncw, which is contrary to what most think in the ncw, that if they were doing something wrong, the pope would have kiko and the ncw members excommunicated and stop all the movement all together. It isn't the correct thing to do because a lot can be learned IF it is done right, if there are no abuses, if every catholic group within the church learns to work together and not feel proud of who's the best. (The quotes above are all taken from the ncw observatory page in italian so there might be some words in italian which weren't translated automatically)
Dear Keith,
DeleteSuddenly, you now have an issue about the liturgy??? So, why the change? Why has the liturgy become an issue for you now?
I have an issue since many people find it disturbing to say the least to not be able to find the approval of these liturgies like i did of the others just now. And because if so many people have a problem woth the ncw liturgy I don't see why you keep on pushing exactly the same thing and don't change it. We are not in the middle ages, the pope and the church do not keep it secret, they cannot keep it secret with the internet nowadays, and are in fact emphasising transparency all throughout the church sectors. So no it is not possible to have a liturgy for yourself with nothing officially written. It is complete non sense to even think the church does that. The term liturgy is something written and practical, it cannot be that it is only approved in oral form and is still official. I find it insulting to the council of trent and the bishops to say that.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteSo why has their issue suddenly become your issue when it never was before?? Pope Francis has given us his support and blessings and he did not mention a single word about the liturgy in that last speech.
It has become my issue because I cannot live peacefully knowing that there is this division in a part of our church. I want ti be able to be in something where members are as committed like the ncw, but not before the mentality, attitutde, and abuses stop. So if it is even one catholic person's issue, i feel it is my duty as a member of the church to do my best to foster unity between the members, and if that means renouncing things like how communion is done (mind us to match every other catholic church in the world so it couldn't possibly be less special than the ncw way), singing only songs which one person makes or psalms only, meeting for a mass on your own apart from the parish, celebrating easter on your own instead of with every other catholic, living a truly complete catholic life, emphasizing too much on the openness of life, enphasizing too much on sin and how bad persons are without God, putting the community before the family, and many other things which people have every reason to question and critique; if that is what it takes to get more people into a catholic community yes i expect that this is done, because when the laws of a group become untouchable and more important than the people's relationships, then there is something wrong in that.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, five popes if i remember well from my last post, mentioned liturgy, does he really need to mention it every time? Are you chuldren who do things right only if your father is watching on you? I would hope that the answer is no.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteThere are many, like Keith Xuereb, who through use of the internet, are questioning "where is the written approval of the NCW Mass?" Many are those in the NCW itself. Change will come. Anyone who wants to do the will of God will change. Even Kiko. Thank God, for the patience and mercy of our Lord.
Dear Anonymous at 12:17 am,
DeleteWe have already given you and Keith our answers. The instructions given to us were oral instructions. If these instructions were written down, then it would be Kiko Arguello and the Vatican who has those written instructions. However, since you are not satisfied with that answer, then this is what you and Keith should do. Write a letter of complaint to the Vatican or the Nuncio. That is your duty as a Catholic. By informing the Vatican or Nuncio, that should terminate the division in you and you can go on with your life. You have accomplished your duty as a Catholic, and it is now in the hands of the Vatican.
The NCW, on the other hand, will continue to follow all written and ORAL instructions that was given to them. If there are any changes to be made as a result from your letter to the Vatican, it will come to us from the Vatican. But we will not change simply because YOU want us to change.
In his speech, Pope Francis said that the Neocatechumenal Way is obedient. According to Pope Francis (capitalization is mine):
"So OBEDIENT and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. It is a great consolation to see all of this, because it confirms that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church, even today, and that He meets the needs of modern man."
Dear Diana, your "duty as a Catholic" is to find out whether the Church has the authority to make changes in the liturgy by way of private verbal instruction. If you did this, you would find that it does not. Which is why it is only you - not the Archbishop, nor any other senior member of the NCW, including Kiko - who claims that the permission for the NCW way of communion is private and verbal.
DeleteLet me repeat. It is your responsibility as a Catholic to find this out. If you do not, and you continue to advance this fairy tale, you remain culpable for the division, confusion and sin that it causes. It is not up to others to contact the Nuncio or Vatican about this. because they understand perfectly well that the Church has never, and will never, give private, verbal approvals to individuals or groups to make variations of this sort to the heart of the Catholic liturgy, and the sign and source of our unity.
Dear Anonymous at 1:50 pm,
DeleteMy calling as a Christian is to be more like Christ. And Christ was obedient unto death. He even told His disciples to listen and obey the Pharisees because they sit in the chair of Moses (See Matthew 23:2-3). If the Pope or the Archbishop disobeys God, God will be the one to judge them, not me.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1;50 PM- Let's see here, who started the division? Oh wait a fanatic folks like you who seek justice for two priest who made mistakes with in the Church. You follow men who you think did good with the Church. Exposing the priest were at fault is not by the Archbishop side but demanded by Concern Catholic and the ROHR minions. Who demanded? YOU! Now you have the information and enjoy your free burial PLOTS!
ReplyDeleteI agree with the quote, but the responsibility of doing the right thing and correct any mistakes would then fall on you not the pope if the church makes a mistake, people speak up about the mistake and nothing is done.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes i researched a bit today and i found nothing that says the church can speak in any sort of authority certainly so not in liturgical matters in oral form. I think you mistake it with the passing on of oral tradition and written tradition which is a totally different issue.
Dear Keith,
DeleteCan you show me the weblink of this research showing that the Church can speak in any sort of authority, but not in liturgical matters in oral form?
Did I miss something? I read the speech of the Pope twice. And did not see him making even the slightest comment on the fact that the neo-catechumens sit while consuming the Eucharist. This would have been an ideal moment to say something. Instead he said, “The Way is based on the three dimensions of the Church which are the Word, Liturgy and Community. So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. It is a great consolation to see all of this, because it confirms that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church, even today, and that He meets the needs of modern man.”
DeleteNo mention of sitting, which seems to be the biggest issue as regards the Neocatechumenal Way for Tim Rohr.
Is he making a mountain of a molehill?
The Neocatechumenal Way is much much bigger than this.
Dear Diana, perhaps you may seek recourse to paragraph 59 of the Code of Canon Law:
Delete"Can. 59 §1. A rescript is an administrative act issued in writing by competent executive authority; of its very nature, a rescript grants a privilege, dispensation, or other favor at someone’s request.
§2. The prescripts established for rescripts are valid also for the oral granting of a permission or favors unless it is otherwise evident."
In which case you are subject to paragraph 74:
"Can. 74 Although one can use in the internal forum a favor granted orally, the person is bound to prove the favor in the external forum whenever someone legitimately requests it."
In any case, I think you would struggle with this argument, even if you were able to produce the proof as canon 74 requires, as it was not you who supposedly heard this "personal, private, oral favor". It is also highly dubious whether the pope, independent of his own relevant dicastry, has the authority to grant such a favor.
Dear Anonymous at 1:20 pm,
DeleteAccording to the weblink below:
"The pope sometimes makes a change in law orally, and this change is then reported by the Secretariat of State and published in the acta Apostolicae Sedis."
https://books.google.com/books?id=JKgZEjvB5cEC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=oral+authority+of+Pope,+canon+law&source=bl&ots=GK3MLKDt-k&sig=BdI5Qf5txPg9aefbIChX-JCEfl0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mxQFVZbmCZbboAS1toKoDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=oral%20authority%20of%20Pope%2C%20canon%20law&f=false
So, please write to the Vatican, the Nuncio, or the Pope. We have already given our answers to you. I do not know how many times I have said that I heard Father Pius say that these instructions came from Kiko who in turn received the same instructions from the Pope. In 2008, these instructions were given to us at the Beginning of the Year Convivience in 2008. Because Father Pius said that this was the way the Pope wanted us to receive Holy Communion, we follow it.
Because YOU do not believe, go directly to the Vatican or the Pope and get your answers from them. We have already given our answers to you. Fly to Rome if you must and find your answers there.
Dear Anonymous at 11:06 am,
DeleteThe fact that the Pope said that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church through the Neocatechumenal Way is an indication that the "sitting down" is allowed. If what the Pope says is true, then the Spirit of God did NOT make a mistake.
What surprises me in all this harassment going on by some people against Archbishop and Neocatechumenal Way is how all this has been foretold in the Gospels.
ReplyDeleteJesus said, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” And the Gospel of Saint Mark adds, “He was amazed at their lack of faith.” Archbishop has an amazing vision of the Church and he is working so hard to be near his people and to build the future of the Church here. And guess what? He is being persecuted like Jesus Christ and the prophets before him.
Thomas Jefferson once wrote, “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.” I do tremble for my island.
ReplyDeletere: DianaMarch 14, 2015 at 6:05 AM
Your said:
"However, since you are not satisfied with that answer, then this is what you and Keith should do. Write a letter of complaint to the Vatican or the Nuncio. That is your duty as a Catholic. By informing the Vatican or Nuncio, that should terminate the division in you and you can go on with your life. You have accomplished your duty as a Catholic, and it is now in the hands of the Vatican"
Dear Diana,
I did exactly that, I wrote Pope Francis. I told him of the division the NCW has caused in the Parish because of the NCW Mass...... stealing "seasoned Catholics, mostly vulnerable widows, and telling them erroneously that the NCW Mass has been approved." [Some of the widows know that this Mass is illicit, but they have developed a kinship with this tight-knit group, and prefer to stay and participate in their Mass.]
I explained to the Pope what I've been doing - notified the Pastor, then the Bishop, trying to supply them with copies of what the Popes have been saying in order for them to change the NCW Mass. In approaching some of the widows who I have known for a long time, there has been a great resistance even to "read" something outside of the dictated NCW agenda. I told the Pope I wished I didn't have to persist in my efforts (because it seems all in vain) and to please inform me to stop doing so, if that was his wish. Pope Francis has never told me to stop. .That was about two years ago. So, until Pope Francis tells me to stop, I will continue to try correct the errors.
And on that note, I offer you the following:
Quotes from the Pope at the January 2012 audience with the NCW: (CAPS my emphasis)
"The celebrations in the small communities, REGULATED BY THE LITURGICAL BOOKS ---WHICH ARE TO BE FOLLOWED FAITHFULLY.
The celebrations are a kind of STEPPINGSTONE TO THE PARISH MASS as a way to help FORM and REINTRODUCE LAPSED OR ILL-PREPARED CATHOLICS into "THE RICHNESS of sacramental life." the pope said. FOR THAT REASON "the neocatechumenates can celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in their small communities after the first Sunday vespers according to the arrangements of the diocesan bishop." he said.
But the pope RE-EMPHASIZED that every eucharistic celebration "is ultimately directed by the bishop" and MUST BE OPEN TO ALL CATHOLICS, NOT JUST MEMBERS OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY.
"The PROGRESSIVE MATURATION IN THE FAITH" of each member and small community "MUST FAVOR THEIR INSERTION in the life of the greater ecclesial community, WHICH IS FOUND IN THE LITURGICAL CELEBRATION OF THE PARISH," he said.
But during the neocatechumenate's journey of formation " it's important not to be separated from the parish community, PRECISELY IN THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION, which is the TRUE PLACE OF UNITY FOR EVERYONE, where the Lord embraces US IN OUR DIFFERENT STAGES OF SPIRITUAL MATURITY and UNITES US in the One Bread that makes us ONE BODY."
Diana, you ARE called to pray that we all may be ONE BODY, too. This is the will of God; this is the will of the Pope. I wish you peace and unity.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 2:04 pm,
DeleteGood! You did all that. So now, it is in the hands of the Vatican and God. You can now go on with your life. Those Catholics who wish to follow in the Lord's footsteps through the New Evangelization are welcome to join the Way. You, on the other hand, can move on with your life and leave everything up to God and the Vatican. Continue your prayers of peace and unity, and go on with your life.
Diana,
DeleteTo remove myself from this dialogue, would be a serious sin.
How could I stand by and allow erroneous teaching regarding the most precious gift of our Catholic faith to be perpetuated?
Redemptionis Sacramentum [183.] says:
In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
Dear Anonymous at 5:08 pm,
DeleteYou have already done everything humanly possible. Now, it is time for you to trust God and allow Him to do His part. After all, it is His Church.
Dear Diana
ReplyDeleteRe yours of March 15, 2015 at 9:49 am I'm not Keith, but re "not in liturgical matters in oral form:"
Redemptionis Sacramentum [28.] says: (CAPS my emphasis.)
"ALL liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be SUBMITTED to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the RECOGNITIO, without which they lack any binding force."
Redemptionis Sacramentum (2004) was mandated and approved by Pope (Saint) John Paul II, and he ordered it to be published and to be observed IMMEDIATELY BY ALL CONCERNED.
In 2005 Cardinal Arinze Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments sent Kiko, NOT recognitio, but a list of directions that remain not followed.
Redemptionis Sacramentum also states in [114]:
"At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are 'Eucharistic communities', it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish." [202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law, [203] these groups are nevertheless NOT EXEMPT FROM THE FAITHFUL OBSERVANCE OF THE LITURGICAL NORMS.
No written approval (RECOGNITIO) means no permission for "additions or deletions."
Sincerely,
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletere:March 15, 2015 at 3:22 PM
"The pope sometimes makes a change in law orally, and this change is then reported by the Secretariat of State and published in the acta Apostolicae Sedis."
------------------------
I cannot find anything about changes made to the NCW orally re their Mass in Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
Would you please provide?
Dear Anonymous at 4:07 pm,
DeleteAs I said.......fly to Rome and ask the Vatican. :-)
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteOne Consecrated Host is Jesus.
One half of a Consecrated Host is Jesus.
One quarter of a Consecrated Host is Jesus.
One eighth of a Consecrated Host is Jesus..........
One hundredth of a Consecrated Host is Jesus.......
One crumb of a Consecrated Host is Jesus.....
One tiniest fragment of Consecrated Bread is Jesus.......
One tiniest fragment unseen to the human eye is Jesus....
Each miniscule portion is truly Jesus, ........... and each tiniest drop of Consecrated Wine is truly Jesus.
We cry "shame" when it comes to physical abuse towards children, women, etc.
Yet we are "indifferent" when it comes to the "physical" abuse towards our Lord in the Eucharist.
Bread does make more crumbs. More crumbs, more chance of Jesus falling to the ground. (This is one of the reasons the Church changed to Hosts.)
There is also an increased chance of spillage of His Precious Blood simply because of movement in the Chalice caused by going from one person to another.
The possibility of Jesus on the floor? Trampled upon?
We can do better to protect our Lord and Savior from this type of physical abuse.
The question is will we?
Let us reflect on this when we make the Stations of the Cross -Jesus, Body and Blood, falling to the ground the first time,.....the second time....the third time.
Dear Anonymous at 11:27 pm,
DeleteIn addition to the way we do the Eucharist, you now want us to change the bread into using wafers despite that the GIRM says that the making of "unleavened bread" is permitted. I can assure you that the Body of Christ nor His Blood falls to the floor. We are very reverent with the Body and Blood of our Lord. If you do not believe this, you can attend any one of the NCW celebrations and see for yourself.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletere:DianaMarch 15, 2015 at 7:01 PM
As I said.......fly to Rome and ask the Vatican. :-)
Simply, I have more than enough written proof; the NCW doesn't have any. (Know that I say that not with pride, but with sadness.)
Therefore, I do not feel the need to go to Rome.
With the number of NCW priests, bishops, and cardinals already in Rome, why haven't they asked Pope Francis for the recognitio (written permission) for the additions and deletions in the NCW Mass? Undoubtedly, someone must have done so.
Please be reminded, at the audience with Pope Benedict XVI in January 2012, the NCW anticipated and fully believed that their "own" pre-written permission for the "additions and deletions" in their NCW Mass was going to be accepted. However, it was REJECTED.
Dear Anonymous at 11:43 pm,
DeleteWe have the blessings, full support, and endorsement of the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, who has the authority to bind and lose. We were never rejected nor excommunicated.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteAgain, the Popes have endorsed the NCW's enthusiasm for evangelization, missions, desire for vocations, breaking open the Word of God, and large families. However, the NCW's Mass has never been endorsed - no written approval. The Vicar(s) of Christ have bound the way the Mass should be said in the Roman Rite, it is not loosed. If they had, the NCW would have written permission as per Redemptionis Sacramentum; and, the whole Church would know. No disrespect intended, but it would be a sin for the Pope(s) to keep changes secret, and thereby create disunity within the Church.
Pope Francis, like all the other Popes, is trying to straighten the "bent reed" in regards to the NCW Mass.
Dear Anonymous at 9:19 am,
DeleteDid the Pope inform you of all 9 Roman-rite liturgies??? Only those who practice the Ambrosian rite knows the Amborsian rite. Do you know it? Did the Pope inform the entire Roman Catholic Church of all 9 liturgies?? In his latest speech, Pope Francis already said that we were obedient to all the things we followed.
For all the latinistas out there who keep harping about written approval: qui tacet consentire. And the Vatican knows it.
ReplyDeleteQui tacet, consentire videtur. He who is silent is taken to agree. Thus silence gives consent. Amen.
ReplyDeleteDear NCW
ReplyDelete"qui tacet consentire videtur" he who is silent is taken to agree. Thus, silence gives consent. Sometimes accompanied by the proviso "ubi loqui debuit ac potuit", that is, "when he ought to have spoken and was able to".
We must be concerned about not abusing our Lord through various liturgical abuses, [see Redemptionis Sacramentum and the Eucharistic Encyclical by Pope (Saint) John Paul II] rather than promoting Christ's Mass the way "we" want.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteBut, the Pope(s) have spoken, on many occasions, but the people chose not to hear.
re your statement " Pope Francis already said that we were obedient to all the things we followed."
No where did Pope Francis say you were obedient to the approved Statutes re the Liturgy. He could not; if he did, he would be lying.
Dear Anonymous at 11:23 pm,
DeleteAccording to Pope Francis (Capitalization is mine):
"The Way is based on the three dimensions of the Church which are the Word, Liturgy and Community. So OBEDIENT and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. It is a great consolation to see all of this, because it confirms that the Spirit of God is alive and active in His Church, even today, and that He meets the needs of modern man"
He was also the Pope who ceased all investigations into the Way because all the allegations were unfounded. Nothing ever came from those investigations since it started. .
Yes, St. John Paul II applauded the NCW for many things. So does Pope Francis. So do many others not in the NCW. However, Saint John Paul, never approved of their Mass. He gave the NCW a period of experimentation; but, after examining the Mass carefully, he had Cardinal Arinze give them correction. Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus, also applauded the NCW for various things; however, he expected the loyalty that they professed they were giving to him. When he denied the NCW permission for the additions and deletions in the Mass back in January 2012, they were bewildered. Pope Francis also tried to correct their Liturgy in an earlier audience with the NCW.
ReplyDelete"The Way is based on the three dimensions of the Church -
- which are the Word, (so obedient and constant listening to the Word of God;)
- Liturgy (the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday)
- and Community. (the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life.)
"So obedient" refers to opening up the Word of God on a regular basis.
Dear Anonymous at 3:01 pm,
DeleteYou see.....this is what I mean. All we are doing is going around in circles. I already said that we were given permission from Rome. You already know that an investigation was conducted on the NCW during Benedict's term, and when Francis became Pope, he ceased all investigations in the Way. We do not need to go around in circles. Again as I said, write your letter to Rome and wait for their response. You can even fly to Rome if you want and make an appointment to see the Pope or the Congregation of Divine Worship.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteOnce again:
The Popes have said the NCW Mass must be open to all.
The Popes have said that Communion on the tongue, the NORM, while kneeling or standing, cannot be denied.
The NCW continue to deny those wishing to receive this way.
Dear Anonymous at 3:17 pm,
DeleteThe NCW is not for everyone. If you love communion on the tongue so much, then the NCW is definitely not for you. I know for certain that the Traditional Latin Mass is not for me despite that it is open to everyone. The NCW is not going to change because of you just as the Traditional Latin Mass is not going to change because of me. Since you do not feel comfortable attending Mass with the NCW (which is not for everyone) find a Mass that suits you better. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church.
I will try to give up because this is a nattle only the true well formed catholics in Gaum at the moment can win. Twisting arguments and words from one post to the other, accepting all the good things the pope says yet insisting the bad things (recommendations last year and many before, the amendments made to the statute for example), did not even happen and then you tell people to simply believe, is manipulation and treating everyone like idiots. You use scripture to try and prove your point. Well the bible says many things and you cannot just write one verse from anywhere just to prove you're backed up by God. That's wrong and incorrect. So why not say, oh in the bible it allows divorce, so why not do it as well-quote from OT-, or there are instances where people were told to kill someone in the bible, so if murderers take you as an example why not justify there ignorance with a verse from the bible. Yet all they would be doing is seein what they want to see and not what God is telling them. You just use verses which the catechists use to try and prove you're right. That's stupid, and it's not God who's working in you, it's human deception. You underestimate the mind of humans too much. Do not forget God made us in his image and likeness we are not simply worthless creatures who should stay praying to God and keep doing nothing for Him. It is immature to say the devil made me not go to church for example, or any other thing, no it is not the damned devil, it's your laziness who didn't get you off your bed to go, it's your ignorance and laziness that makes you not read the bible not not being in the ncw. It's not the devil it's you. People are perfectly capable of doing either good or bad on their own hence we have free will. God is there to help us do good and much more with our lives. The devil is there to help us lose our eternal lives and destroy others with us, but it is us, our mind, that makes the decision in the end.
ReplyDeleteDear Keith,
DeleteIs there anything in my post that encourages murder??? You chose to leave the community and have found that the NCW is not for you. You argue only about how we stand and not kneel, why we sit, and why we do not receive the Body of Christ by tongue. God does not care whether one receives Him by tongue or by hand as long as one receives him.
The Old Testament also said that a person should not work on the Sabbath. That was the law. Jesus worked during the Sabbath, as He went about healing people. The Pharisees condemned fChrist or breaking the law. They did not understand the Spirit of the Law, only the Letter of the law. When a person dies, God is not going to ask you whether you knelt during Mass. He is also not going to ask you how many times you went to Mass. What matters to God was whether you were able to love your neighbor including your enemies.
Yes, God made you in His image and likeness, but that does not make you God. God prefers that you surrender your will to Him rather than you following your own will.
"God does not care whether one receives Him by tongue or by hand as long as one receives him. "
DeleteYou know this how? Surely God cares whether we follow the precepts of His Church? And in His Church the law is communion on the tongue. In His Church communion on the tongue is not to be denied. Yet the NCW deny it.
"but that does not make you God. God prefers that you surrender your will to Him rather than you following your own will. "
Methinks you should practice what ye preach.
Dear Anonymous at 11:50 pm,
DeleteChrist said that the two greatest commandments, which is to love God and to love thy neighbor, fulfills the entire law. See the Beatitudes. Nothing in the Beatitudes says that the person who eats the Body of Christ only with his/ her tongue will enter God's kingdom.
You should know that the greatest commandment which We have is not that Diana, that commandment of loving your neighbor as you wish they love you, was surpassed by Jesus. Now our 'big' commandment is love each other as Jesus loved us, which gives us much more responsibility and a greater reward.
DeleteAlso, you see you did it again, you wuoted the part you wanted, I'm referring to working on the Sabbath. Well I'm sure you know in another verse Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to complete it. I said this to point out that quoting a verse here and there where you see it fit, is not really good. There are many contradicting verses in the bible
Dear Keith,
DeleteThe only reason I brought up the Sabbath law was to show that you are like the Pharisees who went by the Sabbath law. The Sabbath law DOES say that one should do absolutely no work on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees took that literally. They commanded everyone to do absolutely no work on the Sabbath, not even if it is to pick grain even if they are hungry. Jesus worked on the Sabbath as he went around healing people because He understood the law better than the Pharisees who took the law LITERALLY to the letter just like you and the jungle folks do.
DianaMarch 18, 2015 at 6:31 PM
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
You state:
***The NCW is not for everyone. If you love communion on the tongue so much, then the NCW is definitely not for you. I know for certain that the Traditional Latin Mass is not for me despite that it is open to everyone. The NCW is not going to change because of you just as the Traditional Latin Mass is not going to change because of me. Since you do not feel comfortable attending Mass with the NCW (which is not for everyone) find a Mass that suits you better. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church.***
The Traditional Latin Mass has permission to RETAIN EXCLUSIVELY the NORM of RECEIVING ON THE TONGUE. Yes, one would have to comply with this if they went to their Mass.
However, the NCW Mass must be open to all, and if one wishes to receive on the tongue, the norm, they must not be denied
It is uncharitable for the NCW to say - go to another Mass.
Dear Anonymous at 1:09 pm,
DeleteSo, you are now saying that the Traditional Latin Mass is NOT open to all????
The NCW has permission to retain exclusively the right to receive by hand especially since the priest did not receive Holy Communion himself. As I said, we already have permission from Rome to celebrate the Mass the way we do.
It is uncharitable for you to FORCE your Traditional Latin Mass on to us. Christ is about love, not about force. There is a lot of different kinds of Mass in the Catholic Church. Pick the one that suits you best and which you feel more comfortable with.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
You must have read on Jungle Watch that Pope Francis formally decided that the Rite of Peace was to remain before the breaking of the bread during which the Lamb of God is implored to give us His peace.
What will the NCW do?
The approved Statutes only mention the move of the rite of peace "ad experimentum". See GIRM 395 and following. That means the rite of peace ought to be restored to the normal way. Thanks for coming.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:01 and 4:04 pm,
DeleteThe 2008 Approved Statutes is no longer an "ad experimentum." It is the final and approved version that we now follow. In May 16, 2014, Pope Francis backed up the liturgy of the Way. According to Vatican.com:
"The Vatican Secretariat of State sent a letter on April 3rd from the Holy Father to Kiko Argüello, initiator of the Neocatechumenal Way, along with Carmen Hernandez, confirming the liturgical praxis of the Way with regards to the Eucharist and the Paschal Vigil.
In the letter, the Holy Father confirms that "as far as it pertains to the celebrations of the Paschal Vigil and the Sunday Eucharist, […] articles 12 and 13 [of the Statutes], read in their entirety, constitute therefore the regulatory charter of reference."
This message was in response to a letter sent previously by Kiko Argüello in which he told the Pope of his concern about several negative interpretations of the words of the Holy Father addressed to a group of some 12,000 neocatechumens on February 1st, 2014.
In his response, Pope Francis not only confirmed the full validity of the Statute of the Neocatechumenal Way, but acknowledged "the evangelizing dynamism of the Neocatechumenal Way, the experience of authentic conversion of life of so very many faithful, and the fruits of good generated thanks to the presence of the communities all over the world."
You can read the rest of the article in the following website:
http://vatican.com/news/frame.aspx?url=http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/zenit/english/~3/tlCCY_cZ8Ww/pope-francis-backs-neocatechumenal-way-liturgy
Thats fine, Diana. Read Articles 12 and 13 in their entirety, then. And pay close attention to footnote 49, which is referenced in article 13:
Delete" the groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may receive communion under two species, always with unleavened bread, and transfer “ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful."
The definitive statutes (not the ad experimentum statutes) include the transfer of the rite of peace as "ad experimentum". You must be exceedingly dull of mind and ignorant, Diana.
Dear Anonymous at 11:26 pm,
DeleteYes, I am dull and ignorant, but I can read. According to Tim Rohr (Capitalization is mine):
"You may want to note that the permission to transfer the Rite of Peace is given "ad experimentum", meaning it is not a permanent permission. The permission was given because, at the time, the question about the placement of the Rite of Peace was being studied as a question for the whole Church.
THAT PERIOD OF "AD EXPERIMENTUM" OR STUDY, ENDED ON AUGUST 1, 2014, WITH POPE FRANCIS FORMALLY DECIDING THAT THE RITE OF PEACE WAS TO STAY PUT,"
http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/03/never-let-stupid-moment-go-to-waste.html#more
The NCW Statutes was APPROVED in 2008, giving us the permission to transfer the rite of Peace after the Prayer of the Faithful. This is what the Statutes state (Capitalization is mine):
" For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite are followed, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE EXPLICIT OF THE CONCESSIONS FROM THE HOLY SEE.49 "
"With the exception of the explicit of the concessions from the Holy See. And what were those exceptions?? The rite of peace was one of them. All you had to do was read the footnotes in 49, which stated (capitalization is mine):
49.......“The Congregation CONSENTS that among the adaptations foreseen by the instruction “Actio Pastoralis”, nn. 6-11, the groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may receive communion under two species, always with unleavened bread, AND TRANSFER “ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful.”
Now, Anonymous, do you know what the word "consent" means??? Do you understand that the Congregation has CONSENTED TO TRANSFER something that was "ad experimentum" (in this case the rite of peace) to after the prayer of the faithful. Rohr said that the NCW "ad experimentum" ended in 2014???? He is incorrect. The "ad experimentum" of the NCW ended in 2008 with the approval of the Statutes.
The Pope message regarding the rite of peace was not referring to the NCW, but to the regular Mass where a vast majority of Catholics attend. Rome has approved a Statutes for us to follow in 2008. If they wanted us to follow something different, they would write an amendment to the Statutes.
Oh my Goodness, Diana. You need to read it again. There are two "ad experimentum"s going on here. One is in relation to the NCW Statutes - and this ended with the definitive statutes of 2008. The other is in relation to the movement of the rite of peace - and this "ad experimentum" period ended in 2014, when the Congregation made a final determination that the rite of peace should not be moved.
DeleteIf you look at the NCW Statutes from 2008 you can see the reference to the "ad experimentum" period in relation to the rite of peace in footnote 49 - WHICH IS WHAT YOU JUST QUOTED YOUSELF!!!
"The Congregation CONSENTS that....the groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may.... TRANSFER “ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful"
Its pretty plain and clear. Your mistake is to think that there is only one "ad experimentum" period . The finalization of the NCW Statutes did not resolve the question of the movement of the rite of peace. Which is why your Statutes still refer to this, second "ad experimentum" period. Do you understand now?
Dear Anonymous at 10:57 am,
DeleteOH MY GOODNESS.....Anonymous, everyone knows that the "ad experimentum" was only for five years, and there was never a second one. In fact, the "ad experimentum" written in the approved 2008 Statutes was not referring to any future "ad experimentum." According to the Vatican (capitalization is mine):
"And So:
HAVING PASSED THE FIVE-YEAR PERIOD OF APPROVAL "AD EXPERIMENTUM" of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way (cfr. Decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity of June 6, 2002):.........the definitive approval of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way as duly authenticated by the Council, of which a copy must be deposited in its archives. This is done with the confidence that the approved statutes offer firm and secure guidelines for the life of the Way and are an important aid for Pastors in their fatherly and careful accompaniment of the neocatechumenal communities in the local parishes.
Given in the Vatican May 11, 2008, Solemnity of Pentecost."
You can find the above statement in the Pontificium Consilium Pro Laicis. Nothing in there speaks of a second "ad experimentum."
Dear Diana,
Delete"everyone knows that the "ad experimentum" was only for five years"
Did you not read what I wrote? There are two "ad experimentum" periods. One for the Statutes (expired 2008) and one for the rite of peace (finished 2014). Why is this so hard for you to understand? Look : http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403223.htm
No one is denying that the NCW Statutes were defined in 2008 after their "ad experimentum" period. The issue is that the final version of the NCW statutes recognizes that the other matter, the movement of the rite of peace, was still in the "ad experimentum" period. Good gracious, this is far more difficult that it ought to be!
Dear Anonymous at 12:26 pm,
DeleteShow me where the Vatican said that there is a second "ad experimentum" that will end in 2014. The Article you provided does not say anything about the Neocatechumenal Way's sign of peace, which was ALREADY transferred to after the Prayer of the Faithful. In fact, this is what the article stated:
"The sign of peace at Mass has not always led to serenity among liturgists or within the congregations gathered each Sunday in Catholic churches around the world."
Can you not see that they were never referring to the Neocatechumenal Way????? It mentioned "congregations gathered each Sunday in Catholic Churches around the world." The NCW does not gather each Sunday for their Mass......but on every SATURDAY. So, who are they referring to????? Did I not say that they were referring to the regular Mass and not to the NCW Mass????? The NCW Mass is ALREADY established through their 2008 approved Statutes. If there are any changes to be made, the Statutes must be amended from the Vatican.
You have got to be kidding. There is no "NCW Mass"?! Nor is there a "Neocatechumenal Way's sign of peace". There is only the Mass of the Roman Rite, with specific concessions given when celebrated in the small communities of the NCW. Those specific concessions are listed in the NCW Statute, at footnote 49. There are no others. The NCW Statute refers to the concession for the rite of peace to be moved "ad experimentum". These words (ad experimentum) are in the definitive statutes of the NCW - not the old one. You must know this because you quoted them. Why do you say they are in the Statutes from 2008 if not because the movement of the rite of peace is "ad experimentum". I would be very curious as to why you think the Statutes have these words in them. Can you provide an explanation Diana? Take your time. Ask your catechist or your presbyter. Let's see if you can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why the powers that be would include the words "ad experimentum" in relation to the rite of peace, in the definitive statutes. What's the bet that you will be too much of a coward to answer. Or your answer will actually not answer this question?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:22 pm,
DeleteNo, I am not kidding. There is such thing as a Traditional Latin Mass, the Novus Ordo Mass, and the Eastern Catholic Mass. As a matter of fact, you can check out the 10 differences between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass in the following weblink. There are some very interesting stuff there.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/worship/tp/Comparing_the_Masses.htm
You stated, "The NCW Statute refers to the concession for the rite of peace to be moved "ad experimentum".
The Statutes never said that the rite of peace is to be moved "ad experimentum." It stated that the "ad experimentum" rite of peace is to be moved after the prayer of the faithful. The Way had always practiced the rite of peace after the prayer of faithful DURING the five year "ad experimentum". The 2008 approved Statutes only made it official that the rite of peace is to be after the Prayer of the faithful in the NCW...... now that the five year "ad experimentum" is over.
So, can you show me where the Vatican gave the NCW a second "ad experimentum, which was supposed to end in 2014??