I hope you do not mind my posting your comment as a post. First of all, Hafa Adai from Guam. You have posted a few times on my blog regarding the Neocatechumenal Way. I understand from your comment below that you have some issues about the Way, which does not have anything to do with the liturgy. So, I will address your comment here:
And what would make you think that something like the protestant reformation was good?? Maybe this pope and the people in the vatican today want to try another way, they want to improve and work on kiko's teachings because if they just say it was a mistake to accept them they would lose not only the people's trust but also all the NCW members. To answer the last statement.. I am more worried about members leaving rather than members joining ;) that is where freedom is forced.. That is why the Pope 'recommended' that the members are free to leave and search for other means of finding their christian faith ;) - i am one of those people.. Who left the NCW not because of the mass because i have mo problem with some changes but because of the emphasis on sin, too much emphasis on how the movement saves people- please as much as it has saved it has caused breakages of families, even suicides just to be clear- and if what the NCW members understand by the pope's recommendation when he said this was to not speak to the member who leaves the NCW except obviously to send invitations to join again... Is wrong on all levels, human,religious, personal, social.
As I mentioned to you before, the duty of the Church is to preserve her teachings. History shows that she is not going to compromise her teachings for the sake of keeping members. After all, Christ did say that many are called, but only a few are chosen. Many will follow the wide and easy road leading to death while few will walk the narrow road leading to eternal life. So, why concern yourself with numbers when Christ already said that few will choose to walk the narrow road leading to life? The Catholic Church does not concern herself with numbers. Those few chosen ones will be the light of the world so that when people see the light of Christ shining in them, they too might worship God. Ghandi once stated that he liked Christ, but he does not like Christians. If he had met Mother Teresa (a light to the world), his view of Christians and Christianity would be different.
You also mentioned that the Way placed too much emphasis on sin. Christ also placed too much emphasis on sin. When God called St. John the Baptist, his first message to the people is to repent from sin. When Christ started his first ministry, his very first message is to repent from sin. And at Pentecost, when St. Peter spoke to the people, his first message was to repent from sin and be baptized so that one can receive the Holy Spirit. So, yes, the emphasis should be on sin. Why? Because Christ came down to save sinners. He gave His life for sinners. He did not come to save the righteous. In fact, the Holy Bible tells you that Christ left the 99 righteous sheep and went searching for that one lost sheep. Christ came down to meet and save the sinners. He did not come to meet the righteous; therefore, it is in our sins that Christ can come to meet us. It is in our poverty and humility (not our wealth) that we can see Christ.
Lastly, you mention that people spoke of how the Way saved their marriage, prevented suicides, and brought them closer to God. You also accuse the Way of breaking up marriages and causing suicides. You will find that even in the Catholic Church, her members have committed adultery resulting in many marital break ups. Members of the Catholic Church have committed abortion, suicide, and even murder. In fact, the Sicilian Mafia (also known as Cosa Nostra) are Catholics who have committed many atrocities. The IRA in Northern Ireland are also Catholics who have killed many innocent people in their political wars against Great Britain. Does this mean that the Catholic Church broke up marriages, caused murders, suicide, and other atrocities?
The NCW teaches the same things the Catholic Church teaches, but her members have free will. Through their free will, it is up to them to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. The NCW is free to send out invitations to everyone, but it is up to the people to decide for themselves if they wish to attend the catechesis or not. The NCW can always encourage people to attend, but ultimately the decision to attend or not rests with them.
Lastly, you mention that people spoke of how the Way saved their marriage, prevented suicides, and brought them closer to God. You also accuse the Way of breaking up marriages and causing suicides. You will find that even in the Catholic Church, her members have committed adultery resulting in many marital break ups. Members of the Catholic Church have committed abortion, suicide, and even murder. In fact, the Sicilian Mafia (also known as Cosa Nostra) are Catholics who have committed many atrocities. The IRA in Northern Ireland are also Catholics who have killed many innocent people in their political wars against Great Britain. Does this mean that the Catholic Church broke up marriages, caused murders, suicide, and other atrocities?
The NCW teaches the same things the Catholic Church teaches, but her members have free will. Through their free will, it is up to them to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. The NCW is free to send out invitations to everyone, but it is up to the people to decide for themselves if they wish to attend the catechesis or not. The NCW can always encourage people to attend, but ultimately the decision to attend or not rests with them.
well written Diana
ReplyDeletePart 1: Keith, we talk about sin, because sin is destroying the world! You know this, right? What is sin? Tell me, what is sin? Is sin not turning away from God and God's people? The most major and number one defeat we as Catholics suffered in historical time is the Holocaust, the burning sacrifice of innocent Jews committed as an act of evil, in fact, an evidence of the work of the devil in the supposedly Christian world! How can you explain, you a European living on an island, that Christian people of the time became so vicious and corrupted?! They allowed the mass murder of over 4 million people in burning flames, who were all, one-by-one every one of them, our elder brothers in faith, as our Pope justly proclaimed!
ReplyDeleteNow, when you talk about sin, Keith, you have to look at this root sin of our current culture and Christian world order. Can you look at this, Keith? Or are you hiding your face in utter shame because of the failure of Europe in WWII, actually, the failure of the whole world in saving innocent? Did you not know that the blood of the innocent cries out to God? Did you not know that God's fury will consummate this lousy world with all of its "Christians", as well? Did you not know that when God acts then it will be already too late to ask and beg for His mercy?!
Part 2: So repent, this is what I tell you, dear Keith. This is what John the Baptist also said and that's how Christianity got started on the Earth. Perhaps, we should resort to this original message of the Baptist in order to be able to save our world from self-destruction. Now, that is why a prophet of our time came about, following the plan of God, to proclaim the kerygma again to a secular world! Don't fool yourself, you have no chance outside in a rigid environment without the love of God! Kiko is bringing the love of God alive again in a secular world, he is bringing glad tidings. He is bringing back the faith of our father Abraham who showed us what it really means to believe and trust God!
ReplyDeleteEven Jesus gave us the same message and the world relapsed. After 2000 years of hopes and prayer, the world relapsed to a state where it does not know God anymore. Now, the Neocatechumenal Way was established by God's will. Tell, does not the Way save the alcoholic, the drug user, the sex addict, people of all different kinds of aberrations...? How can the Way save them? Tell me, Keith, how? I tell you how. The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "mainstream" Catholic is not saved by the same power, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham. But when Kiko leads us back to this faith, opening up the graces of God who chose His Chosen People to show us the way, then Kiko also proves that the few will be chosen over the many. We will be the mainstream, dear Keith, you are one of the witnesses, so do not turn into apostasy but cheer up to the message of Kiko, which is the same as the kerygma of the teaching of Jesus Christ. In turn, his kerygma is not different what have been proclaimed by the prophets of God for thousands and thousands of years.
Keith, if you want to know the power of God, you have to abandon a failed culture and a failed Christian world. Just step out of it, as from an old, shabby pair of shoes and never look back. We are the Way, we are the hope of the world and we are the truth. Nobody comes close to God, but by the Way of the Lord. Now, if you understand that, you won't leave your own salvation. You just stay and share in the graces. All the secrets that you hear of your brothers will remain in your conscience. If you give up your brother, you will be judged by God. We cannot judge the hearts of people, but God will, so don't even try to fool around. The power of God comes through the communities for a reason. This reason binds us together. Never forget that the power of God is coming though your brother who knows you challenges and will keep guard of your soul. Once you are in, you are never out. Once you are saved, your salvation leads you into a straight path to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We know this, because we listen to the proclamation of truth by a true prophet of our times. Please, pray for me.
Dear “Ernie” at 11:49, I offer these following comments in charity, as I believe that a great deal of what you write is incorrect, nonsensical or a distortion of the truth. I must confess that each time I see your name appear here, my heart shudders and groans.
DeleteBut my hope is that you will review your position in the light of the following comments:
“The most major and number one defeat we as Catholics suffered in historical time is the Holocaust, the burning sacrifice of innocent Jews committed as an act of evil, in fact, an evidence of the work of the devil in the supposedly Christian world!”
This is pure assertion. How is the “most major and number one defeat” Catholics have suffered the death of (four million) Jews? Do you not realise that and estimated 5 Million other peoples also died during the holocaust? Including Catholics, JWs, homosexuals, gypsies?
Did you not know that an estimated 60 million people were killed in WW2? And yet you focus only on the Jews.
And, you assert that the four million jews “were all, one-by-one every one of them, our elder brothers in faith” How do you know this? Do you not understand the concept of the atheistic Jew? In fact the majority of Jewish people do not follow their faith except in a cultural or “holiday” sense. Is an atheist really our elder brother in faith?
Ernie, do you realise that communism “murdered” tens of millions of people, many of whom were Christian?
Do you realise that since 1980 1.2Billion (yes, billion) babies have been deliberately aborted? 4 Million per year (the same as you quote for the Jewish holocaust deaths) are aborted in Europe every year!
There are indeed many tragedies of the sacrifice of innocents. The Holocaust, unfortunately, is neither unique, nor the worst of it.
“God's fury will consummate this lousy world”
So the world is lousy huh? That’s a pretty gnostic view. IN any case, you may wish to look up the definition of the word consummate – may be its not what you think it means.
Cont..
Dear Ernie at 11:49 cont
Delete“So repent, this is what I tell you, dear Keith. This is what John the Baptist also said and that's how Christianity got started on the Earth. Perhaps, we should resort to this original message of the Baptist in order to be able to save our world from self-destruction”
It would appear from this statement that you believe that at some point, the Church stopped proclaiming the “original message”. This is dangerous and unfounded. From this fallacious position you then conclude that Kiko is the (only) one to bring “the love of God alive again in a secular world”. So much for the living saints; so much for the pope, our bishops and priests; so much for the personal action of the Holy Spirit.
And not only our “Father in faith”, Abraham “showed us what it really means to believe and trust God”, but “Even Jesus gave us the same message”. Careful…you’re beginning to sound Christian.
“The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "mainstream" Catholic is not saved by the same power, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham.”
In fact, of course, Jesus is the full revelation of the truth while to Abraham the truth was revealed partially. Belief in Abraham is not a sacrament, and does not save. It is from Jesus Christ alone that salvation flows. Again, where is the Holy Spirit in this picture?
“God who chose His Chosen People to show us the way”
Once again, dear Ernie, I think you misunderstand. The nation of Israel was formed by God so as to receive his promise of salvation – and to prepare, spiritually and genealogically for a “pure strain”, the “Rod of Jesse’s stem” (Isaiah 11:1). This pure starin finally reaslised the Blessed Virgin Mary, singlular vessel of purity, in whom grew the Savior. THIS was the promise, and for this Israel was chosen. The Jewish people should be respected for THIS, for becoming the means by which Jesus would come to us! Not for simplistically their “faith in Abraham”.
“We are the Way, we are the hope of the world and we are the truth”
What can be said about this sentiment other than “Arrogance and blasphemy!”? You sideline Jesus Christ in your schema, but will still (mis)quote him!
“Now, if you understand that, you won't leave your own salvation”
“Once you are in, you are never out.”
Again, salvation is IDENTIFIED with the neocatechumenal way, and poor Keith has apparently doomed himself to hell by his leaving the community! Please review the Holy Father’s recommendations earlier this year.
“Once you are saved, your salvation leads you into a straight path to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We know this, because we listen to the proclamation of truth by a true prophet of our times. Please, pray for me.”
Dear “Ernie”, I am praying for you, and will continue to do so.
Dear Anonymous, your theology is flawed to the root because it does not acknowledge the unique care of God for the suffering of the innocent. The blood of the innocent cries out to the heaven! Please, meditate on this for a couple of minutes before you try to shoot it down altogether from your guts. Over 4 million or at least 4 and a half million to 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust as the Yad Vashem museum in Jerusalem keeps the tab of remembrance ever alive.
Deletehttp://db.yadvashem.org/names/search.html?language=en
When Kiko composed the monumental symphony "The Suffering of the Innocents" he opened up a door of future for the Church by acknowledging the wrongs Jews had to suffer because of Christian, in particular Catholic, indifference for their plights under the Nazi regimes.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/concert_reconciliation
http://www.thegoodcatholiclife.com/2012/04/24/program-0283-for-monday-april-23-2012-kiko-arguellos-suffering-of-the-innocents-symphony/
The Catholic Church has not passed through that door yet, although it has been open ever since then, but by the grace of God it will in the future and the Neocatechumenal Way will be instrumental in that happening. That is why we are the hope of the world in its current secular state of self-destruction.
One of the musically most elevated moments of our century is when the sounds of Shema Israel rises up from Kiko's composition. You must listen it, otherwise you will never be able to imagine the cathartic moment of the time, when a prophetic music opens the gates of heavens for compassionate adoration. No wonder that even the rabbis present stood up when they listened to this frantic music. Now, tell me what else could have brought together Catholics and Jews better than reverence for the suffering, a moment of unlimited compassion and mutual love for God? We inherited all knowledge of God from the people of God. Therefore this is the only true theological foundation for our belief in Him.
Dear Ernie,
DeleteAs I have mentioned to you previously, the Catholic Church did help the Jewish people during the Holocaust. I even provided a website showing you that we did helped them. The Catholic Church was never indifferent to the Jewish plight. When the Church spoke out against the atrocities the Nazis committed against the Jews, the Nazis ended up killing more Jews. Therefore, to save many of them, the Pope kept silent. Yet, behind the backs of the Nazis, the Pope hid many Jews in the Vatican and monastaries. Papers were forged to get them out to safety. The Jews at that time recognized the efforts of the Catholic Church, and one rabbi even converted as a result of what the Church had done. You cannot fault the Church or the Christians for Jews they were unable to save. The fault belongs to Hitler and the Nazis.
According to the JEWISH website below, it stated:
"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.
After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a Catholic. He took the name Eugenio."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
Diana, I don't question the efforts. But was it sufficient?
DeleteDear Ernie,
DeleteIn matters like this, we can only do what we can. Was it sufficient? To those the Church saved, it meant a lot to them. All human life is precious, but we cannot save everyone. The fact that we remember the past such as the Holocaust only serves to remind us how hard we must always strive to work for peace.
Dear "Ernie" at 7:09AM.
Delete"your theology is flawed to the root because it does not acknowledge the unique care of God for the suffering of the innocent"
Can you point out where I did "not acknowledge" the care of God for the suffering of the innocent? I merely pointed out that the "suffering of the innocent" is not unique in scale or severity to the Jewish people of the holocaust. Think about the 1.2 Billion abortions mentioned above.
And gosh, if "even the rabbi's" stood up when they heard this (frantic? Whatever that means) music, it must be good, huh?. Because as we can see, in your mind anything Jewish is of far more importance than anything Catholic.
Ernie, I try to have a compassionate attitude towards you, but you are obviously deeply deluded. If your representation of Christianity and its relationship to Judaism is characteristic of the NCW's teaching, then I am more disturbed than ever. It has been suggested that you are a priest in the NCW. I pray to God this is not the case, but if so, I would urge you to stop, go right back to the beginning and try to re-form your understanding under the guidance of the Magisterium.
Being in the NCW is not THE PATH to salvation Ernie! HERESY!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:43 pm,
DeleteThe NCW is a path to salvation. The Charismatic Renewal is a path of salvation. The Legion of Mary is a path of Salvation. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
Do you see what the Catechism says, Anonymous??? It stated that " "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization" The NCW, the Charismatic Renewal, the Focolare Movement, the Knights of Columbus, the Opus Dei are ALL ORGANIZATIONS of the Catholic Church. So, Ernie is correct, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church shows that.
Dear Diana at 3.57.
Delete"The NCW is a path to salvation. The Charismatic Renewal is a path of salvation. The Legion of Mary is a path of Salvation....So, Ernie is correct"
This is not what Ernie is saying. I think you are being far too accommodating to his extreme views. Is this because he is of some seniority in the NCW?
In fact, Ernie clearly identifies salvation with the NCW when he says:
"The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "mainstream" Catholic is not saved by the same power, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham."
"Mainstream" obviously refers to any Catholic that is not in the NCW, and presumably these mainstream Catholics, be they Legion of Mary or Charismatics, are "ignorant of the faith of Abraham"!
Note how Ernie almost compulsively relegates Jesus to a secondary role in salvation after the Jewish Fathers? And that what was revealed through and by Jesus Christ is "not different (to)what have been proclaimed by the (Jewish) prophets of God for thousands and thousands of years. "
IN urging Keith to "abandon a failed culture and a failed Christian world", Ernie is in fact saying that the "mainstream" Church has failed. This is heretical of course.
Dear Diana, do you really want to align yourself with these views? Is this truly what you believe or are these views anomalous to the leadership of the NCW? Do you really believe that "Once you are in, you are never out"?
I think that Ernie is your greatest reason to reconsider all aspects of the NCW
Dear Anonymous at 12:13 pm,
DeleteI do not know who Ernie is. Whoever he/she is, I can see that he/she is very zealous and enjoys speaking about God and being in the Way. Ernie stated the following:
"The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "mainstream" Catholic is not saved by the same power, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham."
This "faith" of Abraham came from God. In fact, "Faith" is a gift from God. There are many Catholics (including those walking in the Way) who believe that they have faith, but in fact they do not. Many of them do not have faith. "Faith" here means much more than simply saying "I believe in God".
When God told Abraham to leave his country, he did not question God. He simply left his friends, country, and securities behind and followed God. That is faith. Not many people have this faith. If God had told you to leave your job and country and settle in another country, would you do it? Not many people would leave the security of their jobs to go to foreign lands without knowing whether they have another job waiting for them.
When God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, he did not hesitate nor question God. He simply took his son and was going to kill him. This is faith. Again, not many people have this faith. If God had told you to kill your child, would you do it? Most of us would not even think of it.
Nevertheless, this faith comes from God. It does not come from man. The Blessed Virgin Mary had this kind of "faith" because she followed God's will rather than her own will without question. As Catholics, we look to Mary, Abraham, the prophets, and all the saints as examples to follow because they freely accepted this gift of faith from God.
Sometimes, it is best to ask Ernie what he means by "failed culture" or "failed Christian world". I cannot answer for him/her. In my opinion, I see Kiko as going against a secular world that denounced Christ.....a world where man thinks he can accomplish everything without God. This is the reason the NCW is in Europe re-evangelizing Christian continents that has gone secular. The NCW is also in Asia and Africa bringing Christianity to non-Christians.
Dear Diana at 2.32pm.
DeleteThis is the problem:
"The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "mainstream" Catholic is not saved by the same power, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham."
Shouldn't it be rather said that "The Way saves, because there is incredible power in the faith **in and through Jesus Christ** that reconnects us to God!"
As I said to Ernie, knowledge of Abraham's faith is not a sacrament, and while it may be desireable, neither is it necessary for salvation. It is faith in and through Jesus Christ that saves. Of course, knowledge of the action and plan of God through the Jewish people is useful for a conviction in faith, But Ernie is mistaken in his zeal, and you do not object! In fact, you tacitly endorse these errors. This is why it is natural to reject your claim that you don't know who Ernie is, and to suspect that in fact he is a senior leader of the NCW and is revealing (perhaps irresponsibly) the true teachings of the Way.
I notice that Ernie has never denied the suggestion that he is a "NCW priest" (whatever that actually means).
Ernie's "zeal" for the Jews is telling, and is consistent with many other observations about the NCW such as the Menorah, the Dayenu, the Domus Galilaeae, the "Mass as simply the Passover", the Shema and so on.
If you were open-minded, you might actually discover what is truly going on, and how you have sold your soul to this Judeo-Masonic aberration.
Dear Anonymous at 3:14 pm.
DeleteErnie never said that there is power in having faith in Abraham. He said there is power in the faith OF Abraham. The faith of Abraham is a faith in and through God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 144 To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment.
The Catholic Church views Abraham's faith as a model of obedience and Mary as the most perfect one because she never went astray. Perhaps, the confusion here is how you define faith. Faith is a supernatural gift from God and is necessary for salvation. Whether one has the faith OF Abraham, the faith OF Mary, or even the faith OF the Holy Saints......these do offer salvation because it came from God, who is salvation. Abraham and the Holy Saints accepted this faith that God freely gave as a gift and through His grace was able to remain steadfast in following God's will through obedience.
Also, I do not know if Ernie is a priest or not. I have been accused of being a priest numerous times, and I am not a priest.
Dear Anon, what is in your mind a Judeo-Masonic aberration? Just ask Pope Francis about the Jewish people. God's promises cannot be revoked. That's it. You sound exactly like frenchie, this extreme right-winger zealot from Tim's Jungle. The same message as was 70 years ago, there is no any shred of change, yeah! It is a shame and aberration what you say and completely justifies every words I have ever submitted to Diana.
DeleteDear Ernie. Thank you for your frank conversation. I would be very interested in your views on the following:
Delete1. What is the promise that was made to the nation of Israel?
2. Do you believe that the arrival of expected Messiah of the Jews will coincide with the Second Coming of Christ (ie that they are the same event)?
3. Is it necessary for the Jewish people to some day accept Jesus Christ?
4. Are you a Catholic priest?
In answer to your question about Judeo-Masonic aberrations, perhaps, and just for fun, you could read this: http://files.meetup.com/574112/Permanent_Instruction_of_the_Alta_Vendita.pdf
Dear Diana, I would like to assure you that I did not criticize Pius 12th who was the Pope at the time of Holocaust. I agree with Pope Francis here. Read. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/13/us-pope-holocaust-idUSKBN0EO1PW20140613
DeleteYou asks me what it means when I talk about a failed Christian culture of our time. Well, just think about the moral-ethical consequences, brakes and balances that characterize a given culture at a time of history. Some ancient African cultures were not able to prevent cannibalism, for example, and were eradicated. Likewise, the Aztec culture did not prevent, actually promoted, human sacrifices and therefore were doomed. You find many examples in history like that.
Now, the Christian culture of the first half of the last century became so complacent and self-sufficient that went right against the teaching of the Bible. What do you think it means when Jesus says the first will be the last and the last will be the first? Wouldn't it mean that when you are complacent and place yourself before anyone else, then you are actually falling behind?! Did not the same happened to Christianity of the 20th century? Think of it deeply, not on a shallow way and you will see. Secularism had encroached this culture so subtly by then that the "good ole Christian people" of that time were not truly believers in their hearts anymore, but believers on the surface only. Their faith and trust in God was on their skins only, they became skin-deep Christians and shallow Catholics.
So what do you think how could the Nazis commit all their crimes if not by the indifference of the shallow Christians? Weren’t Nazi soldiers raised as good Christian boys in good Christian families? Well, you bet they were! So how come they did not resist killing the innocent by the millions? How come they became the instrument of death machines during wartime? How come they even abused their own humanity by ruling over powerless masses and killing them one-by-one through incineration? How, tell me dear Diana, how? I tell you how: because they were shallow Christians, there was no Christ in their hearts and minds. So they failed. By them, the whole shallow “Christian” culture failed. Whoever of decent mind could deny this?
You read here in your own blog that an anonymous coward is calling the Way a “Judeo-Masonic aberration”. What the heck?! The least thing is that we have to raise our voices against this anti-Semitic accusation. Our cultural make-up in the Way would not allow this language. Why? Because we are different, our cultural make-up is the diametric opposite of the shallow Catholics who deny the very privileges of God and His People on earth. Therefore we need to build a new Christian culture and a new Catholic era that is resistant, even repellent, to the corruption of moral-ethical norms and values following from the faith of Abraham and the teaching of our prophets! Thanks for pointing out that I am talking about the faith OF Abraham and not about the faith IN Abraham. That latter would be completely nonsense. Once you understand their mentality of distortions witnessed right here in connection to Abraham, you'll see them in true light – just as they really are. They are the shallow, the morally corrupt, the lukewarm whom the Lord is spitting out of His mouth. Why? Because the future is us and not them. This simple.
Dear Ernie,
DeleteI do not think it is a matter of Christians being complacent. But I agree with you that secularism has influenced Christians that many of them have begun to pick and choose which values to follow and which ones to ignore.
You ask how could the Nazis commit all their crimes if not by the indifference of the shallow Christians? While it is true that it was these so-called Christians who murdered millions of Jewish people, you must remember that it was also Christians who defeated Hitler and his Nazi regime.
Diana, it is not about waging wars. During war time you find Christians on both sides, no questions about it. But it is much different when the innocent is incinerated by the millions. Then there are no sides, there is only one question: are you a human being or not?
DeleteIf you don't hear the cry of the innocent, then you are not a human being, even less a Christian. When this kinds of thing can happen, then our culture is not different from that of the cannibals and from those who sacrifice human beings to the gods. 70 years after the Holocaust perhaps it is not too early to look into our own Christianity as a historical process, and recognize the utter failure.
Blood and blood and blood everywhere, what else is this if not the ultimate defeat of an old "Christian" world? But there is good news. We are a complete renewal in the Way that gives hope to the world. The rescue of Christianity and the restoration of our Catholic faith is with us. Why? Very simple. Because we do not steal and replace by ourselves the God given status of God's Chosen People. We do something else: we restore is to its original meaning! This is found in the faith of Abraham and this is the true restoration of God's plan on earth!
I asked you, dear Diana, why do you allow an anonymous coward to call the Way a "Judeo-Masonic aberration"?! Perhaps you hoped in a useful exchange of view and ideas? Please, recognize that this hope is futile. Those who say and spread these kinds of things are not interested in any exchange of ideas. They are only interested in spreading their vicious view about God's People. They are unabashed anti-Semites, first cousins of the Nazis, and you should recognize them immediately by their first coughing.
Dear Ernie,
DeleteIf you look at the history of mankind, it is full of blood. The first murder was Abel. He was killed by his brother Cain. Mankind has not changed since that first murder. Man still continues to wage war and kill. There has never been a world peace because wars are taking place all the time even if it's not in your own country.
You ask, "why do you allow an anonymous coward to call the Way a "Judeo-Masonic aberration"?!" The answer is because I am a Christian. I am not better than the anonymous person who uses name-calling. But I am different. A Christian is supposed to be different, not better......but different.
Dear Diana, it may not be often that I can agree with all that you write but in this case, I say thankyou. Perhaps you too can see the problems with Ernie's way of thinking, particularly in his ecclesiology and understanding of the Judeo-Christian heritage.
DeleteThis sort of idea is what I would term an aberration, and I do so not because I hate Ernie, or the Jewish people, or anything like that, but simply because it contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church, and even calls into question Jesus promise to protect the Church from error:
"it is not too early to look into our own Christianity as a historical process, and recognize the utter failure. Blood and blood and blood everywhere, what else is this if not the ultimate defeat of an old "Christian" world?"
He goes on to claim that "The rescue of Christianity and the restoration of our Catholic faith is with us".
And his reason has no word to say about Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, our Blessed Mother the Virgin Mary or even our Pope, bishops and priests. No, rather the reason for hope, according to Ernie, is our relation to the Jews and the "original meaning" of the "faith of Abraham".
Perhaps now some of you may see what has been upsetting Catholics here and elsewhere for some time. Ernie is the mouthpiece for the NCW unchained, and as such, represents it as an aberration.
Dear Ernie at 2.10pm, its true that I am anonymous (but Ernie is not your real name is it), and maybe I *am* a coward, but why are you so afraid to answer the simple questions put to you previously? If you have a conviction about these matters, as you seem to, surely you would be willing to explain them clearly for those of us that are a little confused? Thankyou
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:46 pm,
DeleteAlthough Ernie walks in the Way, I do not know him/her. I also do not know if English is his/her second language; therefore, I would give him/her the benefit of the doubt. Having seminarians in our communities, we have come to realize that communication between us is very slow and confusing. We've come to learn that what they are saying may not be what they are thinking due to the language barrier. I remember when speaking to one of the seminarians, it took me a while to understand what he was trying to say to me. He could not find the right English words. Perhaps, the problem is not Ernie's thought process, but how he/she expresses himself/herself through the words he/she uses. For example, Ernie stated the following:
"70 years after the Holocaust perhaps it is not too early to look into our own Christianity as a historical process, and recognize the utter failure."
In here, it appears that Ernie is saying that Christianity is a failure. However, after reading his comments about three or four times.......I think what he/she is trying to express is that secularism was slowly replacing Christianity until it's gone .......not that Christianity is a failure. What led me to that conclusion was when Ernie stated this:
"Secularism had encroached this culture so subtly by then that the "good ole Christian people" of that time were not truly believers in their hearts anymore, but believers on the surface only."
Therefore, when Ernie stated: "The rescue of Christianity and the restoration of our Catholic faith is with us"., he/she may be referring to denouncing of a life of secularism. In the Neocatechumenal Way, the Catechists have spoken a lot about secularism and relativism, which goes against Christianity.
Ernie also stated a lot about the Jewish people and the Holocaust as the start of Christianity's "failure" (as he/she put it). He placed more emphasis on the Jewish Holocaust because it was Christians who killed the Jews. Although the Soviet Union and China murdered more people, the rulers of these countries were not Christians, but atheists.
In my opinion, it does not matter what religion a person has, we are all sinners. There are many who are Christians in name only. There are very very few "true" Christians. Ghandi once said "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." If Ghandi had met Mother Teresa (a TRUE Christian) he would have had a very different view of Christians and Christianity.
Dear Diana, what I am saying is almost what you say. However, the degeneration of Christianity into a pseudo-secular belief system after Trent is so obvious in the history of the 20th century. The uniqueness of the Holocaust is an undeniable fact. We are not talking about blood in general, we are talking about the blood of the innocent that cries out to God! Therefore God will eradicate the failed morality that was produced by centuries of apostasy and replace it with faith through His Chosen. Just as He eradicated cannibalism and human sacrifices through history, as well.
DeleteThe problem is you cannot see history shrunk to one given point of time. God's action in history is spread out, it is not revealed from one day to the next. It is only revealed by centuries of insecurities and turmoils. But we in the Way are granted security because we are those who will come out of this turmoil intact by following God's plan on earth as He pronounced it through the prophets. This is restoration of the remnant and this is the great significance of the faith of Abraham that we bring about to the Church!
As about Matthew Blockley who disguises himself here as "anonymous", all I have to say is that we know about his scandal at the Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Massapequa Park, New York, back in 2008. He was not allowed to be present at that parish, still he made sure he would upset the parish life by an outrageous scandal. Therefore he had to be expelled by Bishop William Murphy. Read more at
Deletehttp://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/deaconsbench/2008/08/a-priest-who-doesnt-get-at-least-three-complaints-a-day-isnt-doing-his-job.html
Is this not a shame?
You are right, dear Diana, in saying that tolerance is a must for good Catholics. However, you have to look at whom you extend your tolerance to. To someone who calls your community life an aberration? To someone who is shameless enough to invoke Nazi language telling you that the Neocatechumenal Way is a Judeo-Masonic infiltration into the Catholic Church? Come on, dear Diana. This person is just a tiny hair away from the well-known theory of Judeo-Bolshevik-Talmudist-Cosmopolitan conspiracy that you may read about in the Jungle. Frenchie looks like to be an expert of this bs. Well, you may read this trash in the German origins from the 1930ties of if you want. Are you interested?
DeleteYou may be too young, but I am old enough to recognize this language by the first utterance. That is why it is a mistake to engage in discussion with this person. He disguises himself as asking theological questions. But his questions are fake, just as his attitude. He is tremendously enjoying that you published his views in your blog.
We all know what promises God gave to His People. Read about Abraham, read about Moses, read the prophets and everything will be clear. If the arrival of the Jewish Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ is the same event or not, well, all this is explained in the Book of Apocalypse by St John. If and when the Jews will accept Jesus Christ is none of our business. God will know exactly how to save His Chose Ones from corruption. After all, He sent His only Son so that we may join the status of God's People by the death and resurrection of Jesus. If I am a Catholic priest or not, hmmm, someone should ask the Jungle folks who announced they know who I am. So if they know me, they also know if I am a Catholic priest or not.
Dear Ernie,
DeleteWe in the Way are not granted security. We are the same as everyone else. We can sin like everyone else. Just because we are walking in the Way does not guarantee that we will not fall. Remember that even Judas Iscariot was chosen by God to be among the Apostles, but he fell. We have free will and can choose to sin or to follow God. Also, there are others who do not walk in the Way and can still follow God. For example, I brought up the Charismatic Catholics a lot on this bog. They have a lot of devotion just as those walking in the Way.
Dear Ernie,
DeleteThe jungle calls the Way a lot worse names than Judeo-Masonic. We have been called a "cult", "evil." and many other names in the Jungle. My blog was set up to dialogue with those who have misconceptions of the Neocatechumenal Way and to dispel all the ugly rumors that the jungle have been saying about the Way. It is not the attitude of the other that should matter, but our attitude. We cannot control other people's attitude such as those of Tim Rohr, but we can control our own attitude.
Dear Diana, perhaps now you will see that giving Ernie the "benefit of the doubt" is actually too much. I think it’s very possible you do know Ernie, though perhaps not by that name. In any case I concede that English is evidently not his first language, although he is also obviously proficient enough. Judging by his rhetoric he is used to public speaking and is used to claiming a certain authority to speak. I'd say he's also European and middle-aged (or older) judging by the projection of personal guilt for the Holocaust.
DeleteBut I don't buy this as simple misunderstanding. Sure, he is denouncing secularism, and yes he is asserting that the NCW does too, but he is also saying much more than that:
"We are a complete renewal in the Way that gives hope to the world. The rescue of Christianity and the restoration of our Catholic faith is with us. Why? Very simple. Because we do not steal and replace by ourselves the God given status of God's Chosen People. We do something else: we restore is to its original meaning! This is found in the faith of Abraham and this is the true restoration of God's plan on earth!"
Christianity needs rescuing because it is identified with secularism - either as its cause; as its product; or merely as an ineffectual antagonist.("the degeneration of Christianity into a pseudo-secular belief system after Trent") But he announces that the answer to the "failed Church" is the NCW, because - get this - the NCW has abandoned supersessionism. This apparently gives hope to the world.
He invents a dual-covenant theory of salvation, wherein the Jews have the primary means through the "original" covenant, and where Christianity is a sort of catch-all Judaism for Gentiles, a shadow or image of the former. From there, he logically then speaks of the faith of Abraham as the model; and Kiko as the new prophet, the new "old covenant" prophet.
The NCW, replete with its Jewish symbolism is the renewal that he means – bringing Christianity as close as possible to Judaism, because that is the original and the ideal.
In fact, this is what Lumen Gentium (Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) says on this:
"[God] therefore chose the race of Israel as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself. All these things, however, were done by way of preparation and as a figure of that new and perfect covenant, which was to be ratified in Christ, and of that fuller revelation which was to be given through the Word of God Himself made flesh." (p9)
I appreciate your intent to be charitable to Ernie, but if you review all his comments I think you will agree that giving the benefit of the doubt just doesn’t cut it. Ernie maybe in the NCW, but his beliefs are not Catholic In any case it is not charitable to entertain error.
I suspect that I am not the only one to think that Ernie is a NCW of some seniority, and he seems to confirm that he is actually a priest in his most recent comment. I think we can guess who he is. Scary.
Dear Anonymous at 10:12 am,
DeleteI am telling the truth when I say that I do not know Ernie. If that is his real name, I do not know anyone in the community name Ernie. For all I know, he could be walking in the Way in another country.
If a brother in a community makes an error, we can always correct them. We do not need to condemn them. Those not walking in the Way are no different. How many Catholics actually follow the Church's doctrine on contraception, for example? Many Catholics would rationalize that the Church is behind the times and needs to update her doctrines.
Ernie is correct when he says that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people. Pope John Paul II even said that. But we are also God's chosen people as well because we are the New Israel. The Way is not trying to bring Christianity closer to Judaism. However, we do recognize and appreciate the Church's Jewish roots and heritage. The Eastern Catholics still use the Jewish menorah at their altar, and this is acceptable to Rome.
Also, the faith of Abraham is a model of obedience just as the Catechism of the Catholic Church says. Kiko is also a prophet, but not an Old Covenant Prophets. In truth, we are all prophets through our baptism. We are all anointed priests, prophets an kings in our baptism.
You see, dear anonymous, Vatican II started a process but could not finish because of the death of beloved Pope John 23th. Pope Paul 6th became overwhelmed with fear and stopped the process from completion. So there will be Vatican III or even IV, dominated by a new understanding of Abraham's heritage for the Catholic Church and a powerful presence through its many successes of the Way, when the job will be completed. Vatican II opened the door halfway so that a new prophet of our time may emerge. His Way will be entrusted to open the door fully when the time is ripe so that the door of salvation could welcome all who has the faith of Abraham.
DeleteAs St Paul tell us in his Letter to the Romans: "They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen." (9:4-5). What does it command you if not humbleness in you heart?
"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. - In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (11:1-2, 28-29). The Jews are and remain irrevocably God's People, His Chose Ones.
St Paul tells us again in Romans 11: 11-24:
Delete"Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree."
We got grafted into the living olive tree through the death and resurrection of Jesus, so that we may become like those cultivated by God. But the olive three is their own, as it the original promise to the Jewish people. Therefore give thanks to our God Yahweh Sabaoth, Lord of Hosts with a humble heart that He sent his Only Son to the earth so that you may be part of that blessed olive tree of the Elected and Chosen Ones though the faith of Abraham our father in the Holy Spirit.
...
ReplyDeleteiv) To Ernie- I am sorry I cannot possibly answer all your statements. however you said this- Keith, if you want to know the power of God, you have to abandon a failed culture and a failed Christian world.- 1) Do you know the whole world?? If wherever you are from needs movements like the NCW to believe in God than go ahead, but do not assume the whole world is falling to pieces everywhere, because I think there are still people that are good and want to do good in the world. Remember (and this is official theology) that whatever happens in the world to any person, something good will come out of it. If you do not believe this you are not christian or catholic, because if this is not true, then the devil is winning over God, and that is not possible.
Another thing- The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is unveiled in the New (St. Augustine)- Yes the Old Testament is very important but to put as a model of how we should live anyone other than Jesus is quite frankly stupid and i imagine quite insulting to God. So God chose to send his Only Son to earth so that we could learn to live like Him, so that he gives us the perfect example of a good life, and so that we could be saved, and we choose another human instead? - You like to quote the CCC- so here's what it says-
"Abraham thus fulfills the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen":7 "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."8 Because he was "strong in his faith", Abraham became the "father of all who believe".9
147 The Old Testament is rich in witnesses to this faith. The Letter to the Hebrews proclaims its eulogy of the exemplary faith of the ancestors who "received divine approval".10 Yet "God had foreseen something better for us": the grace of believing in his Son Jesus, "the pioneer and perfecter of our faith".11"
Lastly, to Diana- Also from the CCC- "Outside the Church there is no salvation"- This is a clear example of how the catechists use psychology to say half truths in convivences- instead of saying the Church they say the Way- which is just false. As you said, the movements have to be FULLY incorporated, and each person chooses whether it is important for him to join a movement, a group or not, everyone can be saved, in a movement or not. There are different ways of life and we must all respect the others fully without thinking of ourselves better than others. Finally, from the CCC as well-
Among the Church's members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.266
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
Dear Keith,
DeleteDid I ever say that salvation is found outside the Church???? I do not know who your catechists are, but in the Way, we mention the Church all the time. Did you not read my post to you? Where in my post did I ever speak of ONLY the Way??. I recognize that the Church is rich in many charismas and gifts of which the NCW is a part of. I also never said that the Way have to be fully "incorporated" (your words, not mine). I said the Way is part of the Church just as the Jesuits are part of the Church. The Way has always been a PART of the Catholic Church, and the RMS priests are a part of Church just as the Jesuits, Dominicans, and Franciscan priests.
Furthermore, you emphasized to me that you had no problems with our liturgy. Now, SUDDENLY, you mention "profession of faith received from the Aposltles, common celebrations of divine worship, especially the sacraments and the Holy Orders???? We have all these in the Way.
But you need to make up your mind. Do not tell me that you have no problems with the Way's liturgy, and then bring it up as an issue.
I think you understood whatbi wrote wrongly Diana.. I just copied and pasted the part of the CCC about what is needed for unity in the one catholic church. I will say it again. Personally i do not mind some differences in liturgy as long as the church's unity is not put at risk.
DeletePs i do not have catechists, catechists are optional for faith, i talk to priests who actually study and are bound to live their faith. I attend a group which is not a movement which lets you give as much importance to your faith as you want, not because it doesn't believe faith is important but because if faith is forced upon you, it is not true faith.
Excuse me but about the fully incorporated phrase- yes you did usebit hecause you quoted it from the CCC .. So if the NCW is part of the on catholic church it has to be fully incorporated and listen to the pope first and then your founder.
DeleteSomeone mentioned mother teresa- do you not ses the difference between kiko and mother teresa? And kiko and Jesus? Jesus and even mother teresa both did as much good as they could while trying to stay out of th spotlight, while putting the spotlight on God. Kiko however has no problems being seen in the media, talking about the way obviously.. He never talks about the Christian faith on the media have you ever noticed? I am sorry but all this strikes me a bit odd for a person who says he is capable of helping thousands of people.
Do not get me wrong i will join the NCW as soon as i hear kiko saying there have been mistakes in the past but now we will learn from them and lisen to the pope and put the church first and the way second. Etc. i know the good an environment of a good community can do .. But there are psychological techniques used which are not only used by the NCW probably which are harmful for the person. Just go to a catechist and ask him- i am feeling depressed for example i need to go to a psychologist- and he will do everything he can not to let you go .. Because psychologists are the people who study these mechanisms and they know what their consequences can be because members who leave go to them to try and get better and remove the guilt instilled by the catechists.. That is why the pope said freedom for those members who choose to leave the way should not be forced to stay
Dear Keith,
DeleteIs it possible that you misinterpreted what your catechists was saying to you. First you say that the NCW put too much emphasis on sin. And this I agree with you. The Way puts much emphasis on sin, but it has nothing to do with being obsessed with sin. Christ also put much emphasis on sin because he wanted man to repent from his sinful ways.
My experience in the NCW is that the Way is teaching us to live our faith. All of us are called to be holy. I would not dismiss the role of the catechists because the Early Church did have catechists. Catechists are not new. What the NCW does is what the Early Church Fathers describe in Church documents. According to EWTN:
"The earliest Fathers of the Church frequently set out a series of catechetical instructions to be used mainly in pre-baptismal preparation; that is to say, in the first centuries of the Church, most people who became Catholics were already adults, and, as a result, they had to undergo a catechumenate or a preparation for Baptism which included instruction in belief, in practice, in prayer and in Christian life, before they were accepted into the Church."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/NCOFCC.HTM
The difference, however, is that in the Early Church the pre-catechumenate goes through a step by step process of instructions to prepare them for baptism and a Christian life in the Catholic Church. The NCW, on the other hand, started out with Catholics who are already baptized and goes through a step-by-step process of integrating them into a Christian life so that they become more like Christ. This is what Pope John Paul II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church meant by a post-baptismal anointing.
If you feel happy in whatever group you attend, then that group is probably for you, and I wish you all the best with your group. God bless.
Dear Keith at 12:12 am.
DeleteI stand corrected. The Catechism of the Catholic used the word "incorporated"; however the meaning is quite clear that the organizations (such as the Legion of Mary, etc.) are part of the Catholic Church in that the Catechism mentions that these organizations are "together" and also given gift of salvation.
As for Mother Teresa and Kiko.......Mother Teresa was followed by media just like Kiko. The Pope is also followed by the media. Also, I did publish an interview of Kiko, where he did mention the Church and Christianity. Below is the weblink of that interview:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/interview-with-kiko-arguello.html
According to that weblink above, this is what Kiko stated:
"There are many people living alone in cities. As in the early times of Christianity, the witness of Christians through mutual love is necessary; it is what amazed the pagans, who said: "Look how they love one another." As St. Paul says, the Christian is called to love the other, but especially a brother in the faith."
So no, Keith........Kiko does not just talk about the Way. He mentions the Church, Christians, Early Christianity, and even the Early Fathers.
What if a person who attends the way because her parents were already in the way has some sort of depression and the emphasis on sin puts too much guilt for her to handle?? And she gets even more depressed? And she isn't helped by the catechists (don't tell me they would help because 1) this is a true story, 2) catechists have no clue how to treat depression that is the job of a psychologist) ... Would you still say that the emphasis on sin is good and essential? Imagine she is your daughter. And when you go ask the catechists that you think she needs a psychologist to help her they tell you no just leave it in God's hands, because they do not want her to leave the way because if she tells them herblife history the psychologist will find that a movement like the NCW is most probably what the source of the depression is. Just tell me if this is right or wrong. I do not care if you believe me if you do not that is your problem. But if it were true, do you think it is good or not? This is what catechists told a person i know very closely. It is a true story, a true experience/testimony as you call them, it just doesn't finish with the way saved us but with leaving the way saved us.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteFirst of all, a parent who has a sick child (whether it be physical or mental) does not need to ask the catechist whether they should take their child to a doctor. It is the responsibility of the parent to provide medical help to their ailing child. The catechist should only be concern of "spiritual" matters. A broken leg, bipolar disorder, or even depression has nothing to do with "spiritual" matters.
Secondly, depression is not caused because the NCW emphasize on sin. St. John the Baptist emphasized a lot on sin and consistently called people to be baptized for forgiveness of sins. The common causes of depression are trauma, grief, financial troubles, terminal illness and other health problems, unemployment, high stress, changes in hormones and other factors. Listening to a talk about sin does not cause depression.
Most people I know leave the Way because they are unable to handle the reality of their sin. For example, if a man left his wife for another woman......deep down he knows that what he has done is a grave sin. If the person has feelings of guilt for what he has done.....the guilt he feels is supposed to be a good thing. Guilt makes us aware of what is right and wrong. If we have done something wrong, we are supposed to feel some kind of guilt or remorse. Therefore, that is a normal thing. Not feeling any guilt and remorse for the wrong thing you've done is the bad thing, and many serial killers have this trait.
The catechists would tell the adulterer to leave his mistress and return to his wife to work out their marital problems. This is what the catechists can do because adultery and fornication deals with "spiritual" matters, which can destroy the soul. Unfortunately, the adulterer prefers his sin of adultery. He disobeys his catechists and then goes around telling people how the NCW is bad because they try to control his life. If this man had gone to a non-Neo priest, the non-Neo priest would also be telling him the same thing as his catechists.
Dear Keith at 10:03 PM, your message seems to be truncated at the top. I am not sure what you exactly wanted to tell me... Do you mean there is something "good" that comes out of the Holocaust? I don't think so! Whatever the devil is doing on the earth is pure destruction and death! But please, enlighten me what that "good" possibly could be?!
DeleteYou also say that it is "stupid" to place the very root of our faith, which is the same as Abraham's faith, in the Old Testament. But where else could you see better witness to our faith than in Abraham? He is the embodiment of our relation to God, which is pure awe, trust and worship. This is the very meaning of faith that was even confirmed by Jesus Christ who came to create a New Covenant not to replace the Old, but to replace US so that we might be worthy of the One and Eternal Covenant of God. Our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as even Jesus confirmed who considered himself the Son of Yahweh Sabaoth, Lord of Hosts.
Yes Ernie that is exactly what i am telling you. This is not my opinion, every single thing that happens HAS TO have a good outcome or else that would mean that the devil is as strong as God, and that is not possible because God always wins to the devil because he is a fallen angel.
DeleteTo Diana, exactly what you said, I cannot agree more, however as i told you, i have heard these things from my girlfriend and from a friend whose parents are catechists. He was going through an episode of high stress and they didn't want him and they didn't let him go to a psychologist just like they told my girlfriend's parents that it isn't a good idea to go to the psychologist, until she went behind their backs once and after they saw that the psychologist told her nothing about the way (because she didn't mention it to him) they were ok with it.
If catechists stick to spiritual opinions and matters only i would have one less issue with the way the NCW works. But unfortunately i know otherwise.
Also however do not generalise- i did not leave because of any of the reasons you mentioned, and neither are the people i know. The people i know left because they thought that it is no longer the way they are called to live their faith. I do not see and i am sure i an correct here, that these people who left any movement for this reason did nothing wrong as long as they continue living their faith.
Dear Keith,
DeleteYou cannot judge the entire NCW because of the actions of one catechist. In the same way, the entire Catholic Church cannot be judged because of a few priests who molested young boys.
Also, I was relating my experience of the Way here in Guam. I have never been to Malta and I do not know the catechists who speak of there in Malta. Most people that I see left the Way here was because they could not face the reality of their sin. Others that I know left because they relocated or because of family issues within their family that had nothing to do with the Way. And then there are people I know who left and returned.
I do not want to judge and generalise but i have read many articles where the same things happened so i do not see how kiko, if he truly cares so much about his brothers in christ does nothing but acts as if everything is perfect. The pope has shown how he will stop priests who molest children etc. and he has condemned their acts for everyone to hear. Maybe kiko should learn something from the pope and be humble enough to arrange any mistakes.
DeleteMaybe the catechists are better there in guam but just the same, the catechists are given too much power and they are humans who have no theology and religious training just like kiko.
Dear Keith,
DeleteThe Catechists are also human and can make mistakes. What I respect most about my Catechists is that when they make a mistake (and they have made mistakes), they admit it and apologize for it. I have seen my Catechists ask for forgiveness when they make a mistake. Theology and religious training is worthless if one does not have charity or love in their heart.
Then we agree here. If what you say about your catechists is true i encourage you to keep on living this kind of faith, just do not judge anyone else if they want to find other ways :) and keep praying that your catechists remain humble and ask forgiveness when they make mistakes. And I hope catechists around the world are or become like the ones you mentioned. About your last sentence yes it is worthless if you do not have love and charity in your heart but it sure is important when trying to evangelize someone about their faith. Or at least know when to go to a priest and when to go to a catechist.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteIf you had been reading my blog, you would have known that I have always said that the Way is not for everyone. You would have known that I have always said that there are other organizations in the Catholic Church that can help a person become a true Christian. You would have known that the members of the Way have helped built the parish Church up by becoming choir members in the Church, alter servers, lectors, CCD instructors, etc.
Many of the members in my community have volunteered to do maintenance work around the Church. One person even bought the Church an air-conditioning unit out of his own pocket. Others have joined the parish choir. Others have become lectors, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers, and CCD instructors. So even though the Pope requires us to attend the regular mass once a month, many of us are in the regular Mass more than once a month due to the fact that we have volunteered our time to building up our parish Church.
The Way is not for you. You have already found an organization where you are supposedly happy in. Therefore, I would hope that you do not judge the entire NCW simply because of your catechist.
We can talk all night about how someone led us astray....how a priest actions has turned us away from the church...how the NCW has distorted our perceptions of faith but rejection of Christ cannot be blamed on anyone else but ourselves. God speaks to the heart......your heart. Yes or NO.....anything else is nonsense.
ReplyDeleteIt is true. The NCW does not believe in psychological counseling for members who may need it. They look down on what science has achieved in terms of human behavior.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:50 am.
DeleteThat is not quite true. The NCW looks down at certain psychological beliefs that psychologists have been teaching. For example, psychology today believes that homosexuality is normal. Treating mental disorders such as bipolar and manic depression is one thing, but counseling patients into thinking that homosexuality and gender change is acceptable is a different story altogether.
Dear Ernie,
ReplyDeleteAlthough Abraham was called the "Father of Faith," we can see that the Blessed Virgin Mary also had that same kind of faith when she responded to the Angel Gabriel. Faith is a gift from God. It is not something that we can obtain on our own. People often say they have faith in God, but many times, they do not.
This is true. Blessed Mary this holy Jewish woman was able to show the same unconditional trust in God as Abraham. This is quite a model for our faith as was for Mary, as well. The two goes hand in hand in complete unity, not and never separated.
DeleteI have been observing the conversations here and realized that it is anger and fear that stifles conversation with finger pointing. Through out church history creed after creed we defend ourselves to clarify who is in and who is out of this religious enterprise. We do this so we would know our enemy and could act appropriately against them.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 9:29 am,
DeleteWhere do you find the anger under this thread? I think the conversations here has been quite civil.
DeleteAnonymousDecember 11, 2014 at 9:29 AM
if observant as you say, the enemy is not the brother or sister that does not recognize or follow our way of life. The enemy has a name and it is not them.
AnonymousDecember 11, 2014 at 9:29 AM - You elect yourself as an enemy of the Archbishop. You choose to go against the Church and feeding on hate and lastly envy.
ReplyDelete