WHY YOU MUST NOT CALL YOUR PRIEST "PRESBYTER"
The NEO's, including the Archbishop (since he is one of them) refer to their priests as "presbyters". Here is what the Catholic Church says, the real one, not Kiko's:
Prominent among the problems is the decision of the translators to break with common Catholic usage and translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters". This cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of sacrality, that carries with it the history of the development of the faith in favor of a term which does not.
Prominent among the problems is the decision of the translators to break with common Catholic usage and translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters". This cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of sacrality, that carries with it the history of the development of the faith in favor of a term which does not.
Tim is saying that we should not be calling our priest "presbyter", and he cited the Letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship, which was written to the Bishop of Cleveland. This letter can be found in the following weblink below:
As anyone can see, this letter was a response to the NCCB giving their reasons as to why they are rejecting the revision or translaton of the Ordination Ritual. This letter is not saying that we should not call our priest "presbyter" AT ALL or AT ANY TIME. The Congregation of Divine Worship is saying that you cannot change the translation to "presbyter" at the ordination rite. So, Tim Rohr wants us to follow this letter that was written to the NCCB regarding the translation of the ordination rite?? And what about our approved Statutes? Below is what the approved Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way says (the bold is my emphasis):
Art. 27 [Pastor/parish priest and presbyters]
§ 1. The pastor/parish priest and the presbyters carry out the pastoral care (see c. 519 CIC) of those who go through the Neocatechumenal Way – also in the light of what is indicated in art. 5 §2 and 6 §2 – and exercise “in persona Christi capitis” their priestly ministry by announcing the Word of God, administering the sacraments and, as far as possible, presiding over the celebrations of the first or of other neocatechumenal communities in the parish.
§ 2. In addition, the pastor/parish priest and the presbyters: 1st. in the name of the diocesan bishop watch over the implementation of the Way, so that it may take place in conformity with art.1 and 2, respecting the doctrine and the discipline of the Church;
As anyone can see, the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way mentions "presybter." These Statutes were approved by Rome. It only takes common sense to understand that if Rome REALLY does not want the NCW to use the word "presbyter," the word would not even appear in the Statutes. So, should we follow Tim Rohr who tells us that we are supposed to obey the letter that was written for someone else or should we follow the Statutes of the Way, which the Vatican approved for the Neocatechumenal Way?
Why demote the ordained from Priest to the more non-secular sounding "presbyter"?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, until i HEAR and SEE Pope Francis' saying and writing "presbyter" then i believe the Jungle is correct.
Why do you folks press your theme unless you really walk the protestant path
Dear Anonymous at 9:46 am,
DeleteI am not demoting anything. It is the jungle who is spreading this propaganda around and demoting the word "presbyter" when it means the same thing as "priest."
You want to hear Pope Francis say the word "presbyter." Below is what Pope Francis stated to the participants in the 67th General Assembly of the Italian Episcopal Conference, which was held at the Domus Pacis of St. Mary of the Angels in Assisi last month. According to St. Francis in his speech (Capitalization is my emphasis):
“Priests like this cannot be improvised: they are forged through the valuable formative work of the Seminary, and Ordination consecrates them forever as men of God and servants of His people”. However, “the identity of the PRESBYTER, precisely as it comes from above, demands he follow a daily itinerary of reappropriation, starting from that which made of him a minister of Jesus Christ. … The formation of which we speak …. is without end, as priests never cease to be disciples of Jesus and to follow Him. Therefore, formation as discipleship accompanies the ordained minister throughout his life”, writes the Holy Father. “Initial and continuing formation are two parts of a single entity: the path of the PRESBYTER disciple, enamored of his Lord and constantly following him”.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2014/11/no-to-clerical-or-functionary-priests-says-pope-francis/
As you can see in the weblink that I provided above, Anonymous, Pope Francis said the word "Presybter." It is unfortunate that instead of looking up the information yourself, you blindly follow Tim Rohr in everything he says without question. The "Presbyter Conspiracy" that Tim Rohr and Chuck White mentions are all propaganda that they made up themselves.
Diana, it seems that even you do not fully understand what the Holy Father is saying. It is clear that the word PRESBYTER is used to describe the discipleship and is not used in place of "priest". Therefore by your own example, the NCW uses "presbyter" erroneously. The more you argue your case, the more you sound like those during the Protestant Reformation. Maybe it's time The Way broke away... then you may use "Presbyter" to your hearts malcontent.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:19 pm,
DeleteYou stated: " until i HEAR and SEE Pope Francis' saying and writing "presbyter" then i believe the Jungle is correct."
I showed you where Pope Francis said the word "presbyter." Now, all you're doing is back-tracking and making excuses. Would you like me to show you the Latin translation for "priest." It is found here in Dictionary.com.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/priest?s=t
The Latin translation for the word "priest' is none other than "presbyter." Also, Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church.
Presbyter from Greek πρεσβύτερος, presbyteros: "elder" in the New Testament refers to a leader in local Christian congregations, presbyter referring to ordinary elders.
ReplyDeleteThe NCW uses the term to understand that 'priest' are like brothers and calling them on their first name.
So Diana - why doesn't the NCW just call them priests like all the other Catholics?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:20 pm,
DeleteThe NCW uses both priest and presbyter like all other Catholics. Please read the comments on this thread.
If any of our presbyters introduced themselves in an unknown circle, would he say I'm a presbyter? Doubt it. Seriously. This is getting stupid while the world is in flames. Focus on the Gospel values as Pope Francis communicated each day.
DeleteWe all need to understand that Tim Rohr is NO authority in theology or biblical studies. He is by profession a realtor and a plumber and once had a bookstore. Now his fulltime job is to defend fiercely Mgr. James and attack Archbishop and the Neocatechumenal Way.
ReplyDeleteSecond Vatican Council names its decree on priests ‘Presbyterorum Ordinis’ - the Order of Presbyters! So the second word in this precious document on priests calls them presbyters!!! The Catechism of the Catholic Church refers fifteen (15) times to the priests as presbyters. He has no clue why the Church calls priests presbyters and as usual deducts badly that the Neocatechumenal Way are Protestants. My question: ignorance or simply yet another lie?
The word 'sacerdos' and 'sacerdotium' are used to refer in general to the ministerial priesthood shared by bishops and presbyters. The Vatican II terminology understood that a man is ordained to the diaconate, presbyterate, or episcopate, and that bishops and priests share priestly ministry. (See Rites of Ordination of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons, Washington ICEL, 1993, p. 236). The code of canon law, c 1009.1, states "The orders are the episcopate, the presbyterate (presbyteratus), and the diaconate". St. Paul uses the terms presbyter and bishop interchangeably, thus refuting the idea the a presbyter was just an old man, aka 'elder'. In the 4th century the word priest was applied to presbyters who had gradually began to assume many of the bishop's functions in the more populous churches. The use of the term presbyter is precise in describing a priest, not a bishop. The Code uses these same precise terminologies. The NCW in using this term 'presbyter' to denote the priest is correct.
ReplyDeleteArchbishop Apuron technically is not of the 'presbyteratus', but of the 'Episcopatus'. He should not be referred to as the presbyter of the community since he possesses the episcopal dignity. He is the 'Episcopus proprius' of the community/diocese.
ReplyDeleteIm really sorry to comment again but a very simple question- why if you (the ncw) say so proudly that you are united in the church, why the heck is using priest like all the catholics i know are used to, instead of being original and go for a word which can bring up more discussions and misunderstandings than unity?? -.- if it's just the same than use priest - if it is preferred by the church in at least some areas it should be preferred by the ncw and not stay changing these little things.
ReplyDeleteAgain i am speaking from experience which i felt when I entered the way not from the post from 'the jungle site'
Dear Keith,
DeleteThe NCW actually uses both "priest" and "presbyter." As you can see in our approved Statutes, both "priest" and "presbyter" are in there. The Approved Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way mentions both priest and presbyter so either one is acceptable. When doing general admonitions, there are times that I have used the word "priest." and other times I have used the word "presbyter." I was never told to only use the word "presbyter" nor was I ever reprimanded for using the word "priest" in the Way.
The Catholic Church uses both priest and presbyter as is shown in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Although a large majority of the Catholic laity use the word "priest" that is no reason to attack other Catholics who use the word presbyter when the Catholic Church herself uses both terms. Therefore, the one who is intolerant and causing division are the Catholics who insist other Catholics to use the term "priest". Unity does not mean that we have to be and do exactly the same thing. Unity in diversity is what the Catholic Church is all about. We recognize and appreciate the variety and diversity among all Catholics who expressed unity in its common goal toward Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteUnity is not equated with uniformity. Nor does uniformity imply that there is the existence of unity. Those who demand that we use only the term priest are demanding uniformity and have very little regard for unity. The church has used the terms priest and presbyter interchangeably in the official documents, teachings, catechisms, laws and official pronouncements. Even the Early Church Fathers has a preferential usage of the term presbyter. Are they wrong? In the official parlance of the church there is no irrational obsession to use only the word 'priest' as evidenced in the jungle. I would prefer to follow the church rather than the babble and ramblings of the rohr-white-jungle-boggie men.
DeleteI just don't know what I would do without people who are apologist. I believe we owe a debt of gratitude because they have a check list of cannot do...must do items that I need before entering into heaven.
ReplyDeleteI must be ignorant because the priest is as human as I am. And if I chose to call him by his given name, I feel somehow in communion with this brother. Unless of course he shows me that he can walk on water.
Until then, there will always be a debate.....Father.....who is the biggest sinner in the church today? No disrespect intended. That is just the reality of life.
Now I would never call the Arch Bishop...Anthony or Antonio out of respect for the title....but I would bet anyone that the Arch Bishop would appreciate it if I did call him by his first name.
Why you say? He has shown nothing but humility throughout these years in office. HUMILITY my brothers and friends. No need to defend himself; the Spirit has that covered.
Dear Anonymous at 5:37 pm,
DeleteYou stated: "I just don't know what I would do without people who are apologist. I believe we owe a debt of gratitude because they have a check list of cannot do...must do items that I need before entering into heaven."
You actually believe that an apologist is the key to your salvation?? Why is it that you cannot see that the apologist is human and can also sin like everyone else?
Diana,
DeleteThis is a link to the Catechism of Catholic Church (Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 6 - THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm
"1538 Integration into one of these bodies in the Church was accomplished by a rite called ordinatio, a religious and liturgical act which was a consecration, a blessing or a sacrament. Today the word "ordination" is reserved for the sacramental act which integrates a man into the order of bishops, presbyters, or deacons, and goes beyond a simple election, designation, delegation, or institution by the community, for it confers a gift of the Holy Spirit that permits the exercise of a "sacred power" (sacra potestas)5 which can come only from Christ himself through his Church. Ordination is also called consecratio, for it is a setting apart and an investiture by Christ himself for his Church. The laying on of hands by the bishop, with the consecratory prayer, constitutes the visible sign of this ordination."
One of the lines says : "...Today the word "ordination" is reserved for the sacramental act which integrates a man into the order of bishops, presbyters, or deacons..."
'
Need more reference? Google it! :) Many of the documents of the Church uses word "presbyter".
But of course who cares what they say in Rome?! Who care what the CCC says, etc.
Really, it useless to explain these things...
"Ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia, et ibi ecclesia vita eterna"
You misunderstood and I apologize. If I would have completed my complete thoughts about apologist's Diana, you would have not posted my comment.
ReplyDeleteThey do have a check list though........appearance is everything to them.
Dear Anonymous at 9:34 pm,
DeleteYes, I already know how much "appearance" means to them. It means so much to them that they love to see their appearance in the media. It is unfortunate that they lack character, which is far more important than appearance.