And also for the record, Msgr. James had NOTHING to do with the creation of CCOG. The idea for the CCOG began with Greg Perez. After Mr. Perez approached me about the idea, I approached Dave Sablan about joining Mr. Perez. Together, along with a few others, they came up with the idea for the corporation. But Msgr. James had NOTHING to do with it.
http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/12/a-messed-up-diocese-but-exactly-what-we.html
It is already a known fact that the goal of Tim Rohr is to remove the Archbishop, and CCOG was established by Rohr to do just that. He was behind the scenes. Also, it is known that CCOG uses Junglewatch to publish all their announcements as they fix their website (See weblink below):
http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/12/contact-ccog.html
Furthermore, their Vice President David Sablan stated the following in their press release:
“These matters are just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Statements coming from the archdiocese cannot be relied upon, unfortunately, in light of all that has occurred these couple of years,”
http://concernedcatholicsofguam.org/news/press-release-december-9-2014/
CCOG have not even begun their investigation into the Archdiocese nor made their first "open dialogue" with the Archbishop and already they have concluded that "statements coming from the archdiocese cannot be relied upon." How did they come to that conclusion?
The interviews with Jess Lujan also showed that they have concluded that the Redemptoris Mater Seminary was NOT a diocesan seminary. Again, how did they come up with that conclusion when they have not even begun their investigation into the seminary? By what standards did they base their conclusion? Have they conducted any interviews or investigated the seminary to determine whether it is diocesan or not?
They have stated their objectives, but it appears that they have already answered some of those objectives without even doing a proper investigation. CCOG is not neutral. The organization was established by people who oppose the Archbishop. The fact that they have already answered some of their objectives without even conducting any investigation reveals their true nature.....which is to plot against the Catholic Church so they can have the Archbishop removed.
So? The Archbishop should be removed. He is an embarrassment to the faithful. You seem to be rattled, Diana? Are you beginning to worry?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:39 am,
DeleteI am not worried. I am only revealing the truth about CCOG. CCOG was established by people who oppose the Archbishop. It was never established by people seeking the truth in order to help the Church.
No, YOU are causing further division with this conspiracy theory and that's the agenda you are trying to push. CCOG seems legit to me and many others. They are open, transparent and on a mission to seek truth and heal. If the removal of the Archbishop is the fruit of those efforts then so be it. It may be time for change Diana and may also be the will of God. Why are you resisting this movement and crying foul? You of all people should know what its like to encounter resistance to change. Not all the Catholic faithful hang on the threads of what Mr. Rohr says or does but apparently you and others here do. You seem hung up on the man and want to or try to blame everything on him for the current state of this Archdiocese. Look for truth, look to the mirror.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:39 pm,
DeleteRead my post above and answer the questions. According to their press release, David Sablan stated that statements coming from the Archdiocese is unreliable. Question: How did he come to that conclusion without even having a dialogue with the Archdiocese? In their interview with Jess Lujan, bot the President and Vice President stated that the RMS is not a diocesan seminary. Question: How did they conclude that it was NOT a diocesan seminary? What standard did they use to make that determination?
This organization is affiliated with Tim Rohr and Junglewatch, who have already made it clear that the Archbishop should be removed. They are not interested in helping. Their goal is to remove the Archbishop and reinstate Monsignor James and Father Paul.
"CCOG was established by people who oppose the Archbishop."
DeleteNo, CCOG was established by people who are disturbed by the Archbishop's behaviour. They clearly love the Church and wish to see healing and reconciliation.
"David Sablan stated that statements coming from the Archdiocese is unreliable. Question: How did he come to that conclusion without even having a dialogue with the Archdiocese?"
That is easy. Look at the ridiculous decisions and statements the Archdiocese has made over the past months and years. Fr Paul, Mons James, the attempted "assignment", the Cardinal Tagle affair, the financial shambles and so on. The Chancery is embarrassing; and it would be sinful to remain silent in the midst of these problems. It is not only prudent but also very wise to remain cautious, even sceptical, of the motives and actions of the Archdiocesan leadership. Having said that, it is surely a better thing for there to be dialogue between concerned Catholics and the leadership than having them at logger-heads. I think you ought to be more careful Diana, that you do not throw fuel onto the fire by your divisive language.
"In their interview with Jess Lujan, bot the President and Vice President stated that the RMS is not a diocesan seminary. Question: How did they conclude that it was NOT a diocesan seminary?"
This is a more nuanced question, which goes to the heart of what the NCW actually is. Strictly speaking there is no such thing as a "NCW priest", but you know as well as we do that in practicality there is such a person. You know that, strictly speaking, the NCW is not a movement. But practically it is - insofar as it looks and behaves like a "movement". It would be almost absurd to think of there being an RCIA seminary, but given that the RCIA is the closest analogy to the NCW at least in terms of its stated function, why is it not also absurd to think of a NCW seminary? The stated aim of the NCW is to bring those that are far away from the Church into its embrace, but in reality it keeps these people divided from the rest of the flock, and does not fully integrate them back into the larger parish structure. The differences in form and function, style and aesthetic, scriptural exegesis and ecclesiology are striking, and act as a barrier to the NCW actually assisting the local Church.
IN reality then, the RMS produces priests that are formed quite differently to "ordinary" diocesan priests; who are committed first to Kiko and the "Way" and then to the local Church, only if it suits Kiko. We saw that when Pope Francis recommended that the NCW give up certain aspects of its practises if it was causing division, that Kiko had a bit of a sulk and harangued the Holy See for a change-of-heart. This is divisive at the top - and it is reflected all the way down through the NCW hierarchy even to the co-responsibles. We have this confirmed by the constant explanation that the NCW (remember it is not a movement, but a way of formation) receives secret verbal approvals from the Pope. That is utter nonsense if you remember what the NCW should actually be (like the RCIA for example).
I think you know all this, Diana. I'd guess that you have been brought up in a home where Kiko, Carmen, and Pius are deified in their roles. I'd guess that your mother has negatively influenced you by her devotion (maybe obsession) with Pius. And you know, even if you don't wish to admit it, just how extreme Pius actually is.
Dear Anonymous at 4:20 pm,
DeleteThen why did CCOG make all this pony show to the media that they only want to find out the truth because they are confided and do not know what the truth,is and that they want to help the Archbishop??????
Oh Please, Diana or Debbie or Holly. What is there to investigate, the Diocese actions speaks for itself about the seminaries...
ReplyDelete....it is very obvious that once RMS was observed to be a SPECIAL INTEREST Seminary, the Diocese put up another another seminary as a front to quash the argument that we have no Diocesan Seminary.
A ploy for us to forget about the the elephant in the room, that The RMS Seminary that has been sucking money under false pretenses by the Archbishop in that it is for the formation of RMS Presbyters and not Diocesan Priests for Guam.
Fr. Art told me himself and i quote Fr. Art speaking about his conversation with AAA...."Kiko has given me the seminary, now it is time to give him something back, i have to choose you to go to China."
Dear Anonymous at 11:48 am
DeleteThe second seminary was put up because of discrimination against the RMS, which is a diocesan seminary. Those who oppose the Archbishop prefer segregation.
So what you are saying then Diana is that the Archbishop, by establishing the second Seminary, is allowing segregation in this Archdiocese? If the RMS really is a seminary that produces priests for this Archdiocese, why open a second one? It's painfully obvious to everyone who gave money, myself included, under the guise of the Archdiocesan Charities Appeal that the RMS is not what the Archbishop said it was!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:55 pm,
DeleteThe RMS is producing priests for Guam. Can you not see how many RMS priests are serving in the parish churches of Guam???? If the RMS seminary was not producing any priests for Guam, there would not be any RMS priests in any of Guam's parishes. But you cannot see that. You feel that the RMS is not a diocesan seminary. We have two seminaries because that ONE seminarian cannot get along with his fellow seminarians in the RMS. He would rather be alone.
Nevertheless, God turned something that was discriminatory toward the NCW to something good. The pope is happy to know that we have two seminaries on Guam and both of them are filled. The other seminary no longer has only one person in it.
Point blank Diana, people have a choice. This seminarian chose not to be a part of the Way. Why cant you people accept this. Young men and women walking the WAY in the Philippines are given a choice. They may enter any religious life they so please. Here on Guam, there is no other choice but to enter the religious life that has the NCW PROGRAM! Sad, no free will, just PIUS's choice! Freedom to choose is LOST.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:06 pm,
DeletePoint blank, he would rather be alone than to be with fellow seminarians walking in the Way. That is discrimination. The one who chose to be alone is the one who caused the division. However, God turned this bad thing thing into something positive and useful. We now have a second seminary.
Second seminary without their own courses but the RMS. No choice again.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:17 am,
DeleteThe teachings and the doctrines of the Catholic Church is taught in the Redemptoris Mater Seminary. So, even if they were to have their own professors, they would be learning the same Catholic teachings and doctrines. And the RMS priests iI know on Guam get their degree and doctorate at the Lateran University in Rome.
"The teachings and the doctrines of the Catholic Church is taught in the Redemptoris Mater Seminary"
DeleteSo you say. How can you be sure though?
In any case, the RMS also does stuff like this, which is unprecedented in the Catholic world (ie reserving the Bible with the Blessed Sacrament, and calling the "presence of Jesus" in the scriptures "sacramental")
http://www.rmsperth.org.au/page17.html
Worrying.
Dear Diana, it might be time to shut down the anonymous option of comments for the New Year. The agents of hatred are spilling over here from JungleWatch in order to spread their vicious lies and feel safe about their savageness. It is wrong. They only run amok here inflating false expectations in people and once they wreaked havoc, they run away in obnoxious amusement. This guerrilla warfare imported from the Jungle should be stopped.
ReplyDeleteThe apostolic visitors will come with specific mandate to Guam. Rome says their concern is the progress of missionary work of the Catholic Church. So that is what they will work on. They won't look into gossips and hearsay of of alleged abuses or superstitions about the Statutes of the Way. In particular, they are not coming to read Tim Rohr's long and incomprehensible litanies on his website. Also, they won't be concerned with Concerned Catholics, an openly political organization masquerading as a lay group of the Church, as long as this group wants to usurp the authority of the Catholic Church.
Concerned Catholics is only a small cabal of adversaries who serve the purposes of destruction by splitting the Catholic Mother Church. They have collected far less than 100 signatures for their purposes thus far, well below the expected 2000! They are also cowards, as they did not dare to publish my comment on their site while they only published JungleWatch activist Mary Lou's rants. This is the truth and reality of the "open dialogue" they propose.
Diana, thank you for posting anonymous comments even though sometimes it hurts and you go on the defensive. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all comments that come your way. I don't frequent the jungle watch blog often, in fact, I have never posted there. I come here to read the "open dialogue" that Zoltan would have you end. I usually skip over his posts because it's riddled with name calling and defensiveness and other than his back biting at being targeted and being ignored by them, he adds nothing useful for me to read and to understand more the views of the NCW. Maybe you should do to him what he claims jungle watch has elected to do to him until he actually has something to positively contribute to your blog in helping us to understand more about the NCW but that decision is yours.
ReplyDeleteP.S. you don't have to post this.
This goes to both sides but mostly to the ncw leaders.. You should have realised by now that the truth isn't completely on one side.. It never is. The question is who will be truthful enough to accept the mistakes and work on them to improve them.. So ncw members and leaders.. Are you ready to accept that there are many mistakes in the ncw way of life? And to the 'other normal' catholics are you ready to open a dialogue with the ncw people and see how you can become one church?? It's that simple really. And im posting this here because i know that the ppl most involved on both sides look at both sides' websites ;)
ReplyDeleteDear Keith, I appreciate that you signed your name to your comment. It is good to see that some of our critics are open for a dialogue. I will make an honest attempt to answer you question. Cheers!
DeleteThank you i Don't care if people know me or not as long as i make an effort to speak the truth and not just saying something for the sake of commenting i believe God is with me as He is with all those who try and have an open heart and are ready to listen and dialogue
DeleteKeith, you are right that the truth does not belong to sides. It belongs to the Lord. I can talk for myself as someone walking in the Way. We feel blessed in our communities because we experience the Lord among us through our sisters and brothers. This is something nobody can take away from us. Since Vatican 2, the Catholic Church has been changing its character from providing individual faith experience toward community based faith experience. The Neocatechumenal Way fits, by design, this new trend. We carry this experience over to many of the faithful. That is a process of rebuilding the whole Church, based on communities, from the bottom up. We are glad that we may be part of this process, being a strong current in the flow inspired by the Holy Spirit.
DeleteYou are asking about accepting our mistakes. Well, you should be specific. What mistakes are you talking about? Pope Francis made some recommendations that I can agree with. The Way is about the spiritual realm, so it does not extend to one's civil engagements. People should freely come and go in and out of the Way. This is what the Pope said. It is already a fact of the Way. I know members, even responsibles of communities, who take kinda relaxed approach and only show up occasionally on the Way's events. They are still cherished members who are considered essential part of the communities.
Could we make improvements? Well, we certainly could. There is no group or organization that could not improve its internal rules, written or unwritten. So the Way could improve some of its practices as well. However, we cannot accept attack on our Statutes that we follow faithfully, letter by letter, if you wish. We are very proud of out Statutes and the way we celebrate Eucharist every week. So what kind of improvements could we make? Let me list some ideas, just as examples, that could be thought of.
1. The Way could open its Eucharistic celebration to the parish. We could actively seek participation from the parish faithful. In the long run we could offer our Saturday evening services as an alternative to regular masses. Everybody could decide if they want to attend a 60-minute regular mass or a more involved 90-120-minute Neocatechumenal mass, according to the time and spiritual need they have at any particular weekend.
2. Regarding the Neocatechumenal mass, or celebration of the Eucharist, it could be possible to make more focused admonitions before Scripture readings and shorter reflections, called echoes, by the audience after the reading. Missalette and/or Bible could be incorporated to assist better understanding of the Word. A wider collection of songs could be used during the celebration, including songs from the Catholic song books, while maintaining a core musical base of the founder's original compositions.
3. The Way could also open its Bible study, called celebration of the Word, to the parish. This would require a publicly announced study plan that could be traced week by week by all interested Catholics in the parish. This could demonstrate our involvement and contribution to the parish life, a true service for everyone who want deeper understanding of Christ's Words, the teaching of our Church fathers and the whole Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I'll be looking forward for your feedback and reflection, dear Keith.
I am pleased to hear your opinions however they are i suspect not shared between many ncw members and more specifically leaders of the ncw unfortunately. I like your ideas though I would personally prefer that the ncw goes to the parish mass and not the non ncw catholics going to the ncw mass for the simple reason that the ncw is just a single branch of the church while the church, represented by the parish church in a particular city or town is the place where all the members of the catholic church should be together to celebrate together the mass, that is the greatest and most important prayer for all catholics. From your second point I personally like the fact that you suggested using other songs during mass too. It is such a basic thing, yet it is not done. Yes if you want use some ncw songs from kiko and carmen, but they do not have to be all from them or all psalms. It is a simple thing which can be easily changed, instead of learning and practicing just the songs which the catechists tell you according to the phase you are in, you can also incorporate other songs and thus the priest taking care of the parish can even tell you- listen this week can you animate the mass of 11am on sunday please... simple, and it will be nice for people to hear songs which they usually hear and do not sing with maybe, and by having members of the ncw spread throughout the church i.e. not all in the same side of the church, can start singing with the animating group thus initiating the singing and encouraging the people sitting next to them.
DeleteThe third point I agree with also but I would prefer always having a priest there. And also something I found lacking is the lack of personal reflection time in these meetings. It is important to have a person who knows and has studied the theology of the Bible and also a person who is trained to help people pray. Many catechists lack one or both of these at least the ones I know because they have no theological training, and it is very dangerous to 'study the bible' and make interpretations to a group of people if you yourself do not know how to interpret it correctly. I know that being a good theologian does not necessarily mean being a good person etc. but similar to having a good teacher at school, if the teacher knows the subject very well and does not know how to teach the material to the students, or vice versa .. than the teacher is pretty much going to confuse the students more than help them.
And a question to ncw members because it always seemed odd to me- The NCW is a formation for adult christians to help them find their faith again as is written in the statutes.. And ok it is a long time till you reach the adult faith again. But it states also that- 'The Neocatechumenal Way will seek to foster in its recipients a mature sense of belonging to the parish and to promote relations of profound communion and collaboration with all the faithful and with the other elements of the parish community.' - So why, after finishing the passages and you are 'baptised' again because you are matured in your faith now, do you continue to go to the ncw mass and to the meetings which is- 'an instrument at the service of the bishops for the rediscovery of Christian initiation by baptized adults. Among these adults, the following may be identified:
1st. those who have drifted away from the Church;
2nd. those who have not been sufficiently evangelized and catechized;
3rd. those who desire to deepen and mature their faith;
4th. those who come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the
Catholic Church.
Why do you start all over again when you finish? Or do you not start again? I do not know for sure that is why I am asking
"CCOG Is Not Neutral"
ReplyDeleteApuron is not neutral, hence the formation of CCOG to help usher the greater Catholic community back to a more balanced and fair state.
Dear Anonymous at 6:37 pm,
DeleteOn the contrary, the fact that the Archbishop also removed Father John Wadeson (an RMS priest) showed that he is balanced and fair. The fact that CCOG already labeled the Archdiocese unreliable without even an investigation shows their prejudice and true agenda.
Seriously Diana, AAA kept Fr. John Wadesons allegations undisclosed FOR YEARS until the media discovered it. Only after it was discovered then did he release him. Are you for real?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:53 am,
DeleteSeriously Anonymous, Tim Rohr kept Father John Wadeson's allegations undisclosed for years until he decided to blow the whistle. If it did not bother Tim Rohr during all those years that he kept it undisclosed, why should it bother you?
Tim Rohr is not the Bishop. The Bishop has(or should have) the moral and public conscience
Delete10:27 It is the Archbishops' Duty to report. No one else.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:01 pm,
DeleteWe should all be morally responsible. If you know that a brother in the Church has committed an error, the Bible tells us to correct the brother.
It was the Archbishop's MORAL responsibility! As head of the church on GUAM, the duty sits with him. He instead hid it under the rug!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:32 pm,
DeleteAre you saying that you have absolutely no moral responsibility? What if the Archbishop did not know? As I said, if it was good enough for Tim Rohr to keep it undisclosed for many years, then it should be good enough for everyone. It would be hypocritical to point fingers at someone and accuse him for the same offense that he/she committed. That would be like a thief accusing another thief for stealing.
My Dear Diane;
Deleteare you kidding me ??? What if the Archbishop did not know?
He knew, like you said, it takes one to known one, birds of a feather stick together
Dear Anonymous at 10:29 pm,
DeleteThat is a "What if" question. What if........do you still think you have no moral responsibility?
Why can you not get it? The Archbishop knew about Wadeson! HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT! WHY? HE HAS NO MORALS!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:58 pm,
DeleteFather Paul kept a CONVICTED sex offender and murderer with him, and you are outrage that the Archbishop removed Father Paul for keeping a CONVICTED sex offender and murderer. You find fault with the Archbishop because he removed Father Paul for allowing a sex offender and murderer doing voluntary work on Church grounds. You feel that this convicted sex offender and murderer should stay while Father John Wadeson who has never been charged or convicted of any sexual offense be immediately removed.
I wish you would make up your mind. Do you want all sex offenders regardless of whether they are convicted or not out of the parish or not? Please make up your mind.
Why did the Archbishop allow him to work at Santa Barbara while on parole? DOUBLE STANDARDS!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:09 pm,
DeleteInstead of developing all kinds of speculations like they do in the jungle, why not go ask the Archbishop himself? Why are you asking me? I am not the Archbishop.
Keith....there is the natural man......and the spiritual man. The interpretation of truth for the natural man varies from second to second or even faster depending on how the truth needs to fit his life.
ReplyDeleteI am in the Way.....I cannot say that I know the truth about anything but....but....I know by walking, .....as long as I am walking........the spirit leads me.......open the way to the truth.
Are there mistakes in the NCW way of life.....you bet.....nothing....no one is perfect. As for the "normal" catholics......their is nothing normal about spirit man. Do you know the difference?
I am sorry but you are making a distinction which does not exist. What you said is the dualist approach. The body or natural man is one with the spiritual man. God created us in his image and likeness. He did not create our spirit and then after we sinned gave ys our body, our nature. So there is no difference. It is our state we are human persons. We are good creatures but we are tempred to do evil things if we are not formed well morally.
ReplyDeleteI said that just to clarify theological and religious aspect of your point :)
About the ncw then i appreciate you knowing and accepting that the ncw has mistakes and therefore i encourage you and anyone else who is humble enough to accept this to actively take part in coming up with ideas to unify the ncw with the whole church and not just wait for kiko or your catechists to receive a recommendation from the pope or the church. When you see something which you think can be done in a better way, speak up. God does not give anyone preference because the Holy spirit enlightens everyone.
Keith you said many but you said nothing and has no bearing. The Neocathecumenal Way is in communion with the Catholic Church and approved by five Popes starting with Pope Paul VI. GOD gave us free will and man has a choice.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteI agree with you that he body and soul of a man are one. They cannot be separated except at death. On Jesus' Second Coming, our spirits would be reunited with our bodies. The Blessed Virgin Mary is a sign for us because she was taken up into Heaven body and soul.
However, I think you misunderstood Anonymous 1:08 am when he spoke about the natural and spiritual man. The spiritual man in this case means a man who walks like Christ because he has the Spirit of Christ while the natural man is a man of the world. St. Paul made a distinction between the two.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The Natural man is Adam who followed the ways of the world while the Spiritual man is Christ who followed God.
To anonymous- Being approved does not mean something is perfect and so there can always be better communion.
DeleteTo Diana, I understand your point, however I answered anonymous as I did just to be sure s/he doesn't make the mistake and think that the spiritual and natural man are different persons, and more importantly to think that the body is just a tool for humans to sin. Also maybe this bible version is more clear and 'easy to interpret'- The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. - The human person as a whole, who does not reflect and be attentive for the Holy Spirit, does not accept the things that come from God because he does not want to listen and cannot understand them because if we do not let the Holy Spirit/God talk to us we cannot learn what He wants from us.
Hence yes St. Paul makes a distinction but he is talking about one person, who like every human has to choose to be a spiritual man and by doing this, using his nature (natural man), his body in this world to do good, to do material/natural good.
Diana, this understanding between the natural man and spiritual man is what causes friction between the two sides in this Archdiocese. Certain posters here who follow and walk in The Way seem to think that the other side is not Spiritual and therefore does not know the mind of Christ. And because of their smug snd looking down on other catholics calling them names, here we are today!
DeleteI get this feeling when I read posters here, that they are telling me, if Im not walking the Way, i'm not saved. One poster here, Ernie says that salvation is only found in The Way. Now you can say that that is true by extension of Christ, but for someone who goes to church regularly, has devoted their time talent and treasures to the Lord and does all the things a good Christian would do is told they are not truly saved because they are not walking in The Way. How do you think that person would feel? How would you feel if another group were to come in and say you are lacking in your spirituality, you won't make it to heaven unless you join us.
I have given no mind to what people say about the NCW because if you are doing the work of Christ, then surely the Holy Spirit is with you.
What the poster above who knows the mind of Christ fails to realize, as do most here on Guam walking in The Way is that we are all Spiritual, all of us. By our baptism and through confirmation we have been made known what Christ desires of us. The church in Corinth was a young church, and Paul wrote them to correct misunderstandings and divisions among members of the church. It was also made up of mostly Greeks hence the need for Paul to distinct between the worldly and spiritual man because the Greek man at the time then were learned and worldly in culture and they needed to think and become more spiritual for the church to grow.
Is that the case here on Guam? Do "normal catholics" here need to become more spiritual in order to know the mind of Christ? I've always thought its not a bad idea but the way it is being done here on Guam is probably not the way to go about it. When Archbishop Apuron required all priest to walk in The Way simply because he had authority to do so, he fired the first shot and many think he is still firing away. There could have been another way and hopefully there still is and its not too late. Maybe the truth does not belong to either side but one thing for sure does: Salvation!
Dear Anonymous at 1:10 am,
DeleteYou stated: "Certain posters here who follow and walk in The Way seem to think that the other side is not Spiritual and therefore does not know the mind of Christ."
Where do you see that here?? Anonymous 1:08 am never even said that he is a spiritual man.
Also, Catholics do not believe like the Protestants do. We do not go around asking people if they are saved. What Catholic actually believe he/she is already saved???? The only ones who can say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven.
The spiritual man is the "changed man".......a man who walks like Christ.......a man who lives a life of virtue. Which one of us can actually say he/she lives a life of virtue? The holy saints such as St. Padre Pio and Mother Teresa lived a life of virtue while on earth. I am very far from living that kind of life.
The Archbishop saw something good in the Way and wanted all priests to experience that. I'm sure that he was hoping that all priests would be able to see what he saw in the Way. Nevertheless, these priests were given the opportunity to experience the Way and was also given the choice to either stay or continue on with the Way. Some chose to say while others like Deacon Steve Martinez chose to leave. But all of them were ordained.
Actually we are saved Diana. It is catholic teaching. God sent his son Jesus to take up all our sins and save us. Jesus died and saved us all. Now if there are people who do not accept that then they are the ones who do not want to be saved, but all human persons are saved. That is why it is important to live our lives as Jesus did, that is why we take Jesus as an example of how we should live and not just any other old testament prophet or character, because if we accept that we are saved we have to accept that we have to try and do good like Jesus and obey the Father's will on earth. But yes every human person is saved. That is the whole point of God the Father having sent his only Son on earth around 2000 years ago. By doing so Jesus saved us from sin. He gave us the possibility to reunite with Him, with God once we pass theough this life on earth but while starting through this life here, now. We can only not be saved if we do not accept that God sent his Son to save us by dying for our sins. Jesus came in history to do it so yes we are saved if we accept God's love and will for us.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteThe Catholic Church teaches that we are in the process of being saved. Only Protestants believe that they are saved once and forever regardless of whether they sin or not. Catholics, on other hand, understand that we can lose our salvation by rejecting Christ and His Church. Salvation is a process. You can read more about it in Catholic Online website:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=105
Anonymous at 1:10 AM, you claim "Ernie says that salvation is only found in The Way". This is a big, fat lie! Ernie had never said that. Nobody has ever said there is no salvation outside the Way. Listen carefully, what I am saying: salvation is with the Way. This means you may join the Way and we'll show you a path to God. It is up to you if you follow that path or not, but we'll certainly show it to you. This also means the obstinate decline or negative growth of the Catholic Church can be reversed and turned into positive growth through the Way. We are producing new believers everywhere, even on geographical areas that have never been truly evangelized. Now, this is a major evangelizing mission, unique in the Church history!
DeleteOur Lord Jesus teaches that if you cannot add growth to the Church then you are actually taking away from it! Then you are an unfaithful, lousy servant who does not deserve even one single talent! Even that single talent will be taken away from you. This is what we see at Junglewatch, where furious jealousy against the Way tries to disrupt the peaceful Catholic life of a quiet island. But their talent will be taken away because they cannot produce growth for the Church. Only division, decline and suffering for all.
You see Tim Rohr is so delusional he thinks anyone will read through his graphomaniac rants on his blog. He is ripe for a major disappointment. The apostolic delegates will have their own business to do. But Tim is abusing his own education and training he had received in the intelligence communities as he tries to demonize the Archbishop and the Church leadership using all the techniques from the book. It is against the Constitution of the United States to employ the skills of covert agents, mostly anonymous, to cause damage to a religious denomination. In this case he is trying to inflict irreparable damage to the Catholic Church.
But we shall survive. As always, Catholics survived all persecutions, even those of the Nazis. At an appropriate time I'll publish my recollection of the Jungle practices in a book titled "Slime, lies and superstition in the Jungle of the Pacific". Thanks for all you anonymous commenters for providing enlightening and incriminating material for the book! You'll see y'all anonymous people will be identified by name, location and IP-address. Then be proud as your covert actions against the faithful will be exposed. Therefore I ask you, anonymous, repent, stop lying and spreading lies on the order of your masters of the Jungle. Actually, you don't help them at all.
Yes as the website says, we are saved, and we continue being saved as long as we accept it by being humble, do God's will and go and confess our sins and truly repent, so that we can continue being saved. The difference between protestant and catholic is that protestants believe you are saved no matter if you sin or not and repent or not or whether you live a good life or not, catholics, because they know they were saved by Jesus, try to walk in Jesus' footsteps so that they do not lose their salvation. It is similar but the attitude changes depending on how you see yourself.
DeleteEphesians 2:8-9 ESV / 32
DeleteFor by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Matthew 7:21 ESV / 27
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Romans 10:11-13 ESV / 20
For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
These three passages summarise our salvation.
Dear Keith,
DeleteYes, being saved is a process. It is not a one time event, in which they are once saved and always saved. Some Christians even remember the date they were saved. Some will tell you that they were saved on September 18, 2008 or whatever date, and they believe that they are always saved.
To Diana well the people who say that are clearly wrong and have an extremist view of things. The truth is somewhere in the middle of two extremes, it always is, it is the most grayish area because God sees in every person so while people condemn every crime/sin the same, God has the power to see inside that person's heart, his history, his way of thinking, and that is why only He can judge someone. It is a fine line for every person.
DeleteNow I'm sorry, but I have to comment to Ernie, please try to see things for what they really are. I mean when I talk to Diana I feel like her answers are honest and truthful, but I am sorry to say you are too biased towards the NCW as if they are perfect. I personally will consider your words when you start sounding less like a catechist trying to promote the way and talk about what at least you think is true. I mean seriously?- "This also means the obstinate decline or negative growth of the Catholic Church can be reversed and turned into positive growth through the Way. We are producing new believers everywhere, even on geographical areas that have never been truly evangelized. Now, this is a major evangelizing mission, unique in the Church history!"- The NCW is just another means of formation and a way of life like many thousands others. And like all the others it gives more importance to some values/points, while lacking in other vital ones, because no movement/ group is perfect and can ever be. So please I am just asking you to be at least realistic and accept the faults. Not everything is persecution. Not agreeing with something is not a means of persecution, it is a way to have a dialogue with them, unless of course there are hidden things that should not be known. And this is why the secrecy of such organizations are looked down upon. People want transparency, and Jesus had no problem with transparency, so much so that even the Catholic Roman Church is doing everything it can to be more transparent in everything it does. Just keep these things in mind please. Thank you.
Dear Diana and Ernie.
DeleteDiana says: You stated: "Certain posters here who follow and walk in The Way seem to think that the other side is not Spiritual and therefore does not know the mind of Christ."
Where do you see that here??
Ernie says: Anonymous at 1:10 AM, you claim "Ernie says that salvation is only found in The Way". This is a big, fat lie! Ernie had never said that. Nobody has ever said there is no salvation outside the Way.
These are what you've posted in this blog Ernie:
1."The WAY saves, because there is incredible power in the faith of Abraham that reconnects us to God! A "MAINSTREAM" Catholic is NOT SAVED BY THE SAME POWER, because he is ignorant of the faith of Abraham. But when KIKO leads us back to this faith, opening up the graces of God who chose His Chosen People to show us the way, then Kiko also proves that the few will be chosen over the many. We will be the mainstream, dear Keith, you are one of the witnesses, so do not turn into apostasy but cheer up to the message of Kiko, which is the same as the kerygma of the teaching of Jesus Christ. In turn, his kerygma is not different what have been proclaimed by the prophets of God for thousands and thousands of years."
2. "WE are the Way, WE are the hope of the world and WE are the truth. NOBODY comes close to God, but by the WAY of the Lord. Now, if you understand that, you won't leave your own salvation."
3. "We are a complete renewal in THE WAY that gives hope to the world. The rescue of Christianity and the RESTORATION of our Catholic faith IS WITH US."
I resent being called a big fat liar by a big fat liar.
Look anonymous, your handling of the text is highly manipulative. I did not use the capitalization that you use. Where do you see exactly what could justify your claim. I don't see anything saying there is no salvation beyond the NeoCatechumenal Way. How did you make this conclusion if not deliberately misreading and abusing the text? So who is the big fat liar who tries to distort the clear and obvious meaning of English sentences? Lol!
DeleteFor your enlightenment:
1. The Way of the Lord is not exclusively the NeoCatechumenal Way, though we are surely one way that will show you a path to God led and guided by the Holy Spirit.
2. What is with us is our potential. When I say God be with you, I don't mean God is solely with you exclusively and with nobody else. What I mean is that let God lead you in your life. Is this clear for you, dear anonymous?
Thanks, anyway for providing further incriminating evidence for my book I am working on titled 'Slime, Lies and Deception in the Jungle of the Pacific". This book will expose the little anti-Catholic cabal of Jungle Watch and their conspiracy that operates through anonymous agents of lies and distortion like yourself.
LET IT BE MADE CLEAR. The Neocatechumenal Way is a way to salvation, but it is NOT the ONLY Way. There are many organizations in the Catholic Church such as the Charismatic Catholic Renewal, Opus Dei, the Legion of Mary, the Neocatechumenal Way, the Franciscans, the Cursillio, etc..........all these organizations can lead one to salvation. The beauty about the Catholic Church is that she provides so many organizations that is open to many different kinds of people. After all, Mother Teresa was never in the Way, but she found salvation in her religious order.
DeleteIn my blog, I have also promoted the Charismatic Catholics mainly because I love their songs. The Charismatic Catholics are also part of the Catholic Church, and one can also find salvation with them as well. The Catholic Church has many different organizations mainly because she knows that people are different. God reaches out to people in different ways.
I agree with Diana and add that even Catholics who are not part of any group or movement have a way to salvation, heck even people who aren't catholic have a way to salvation if they have an open heart and do good in their life. So movements or no movements God presents everyone with a way to salvation. We think sometimes we are better than God by saying who can be saved and who cannot. Let us leave that up to Him and we just worry about living by Jesus' example. Then there will sire be many more Catholics not because we stay preaching but because they see the beauty of our life when we walk on Jesus' footsteps.
Deleteand I agree with you Keith..... but let us remember and cherish the fact that God speaks to us alone. What is our answer then.....will you follow me.....YES or NO.
DeleteWe cannot speak in the plural......but from the heart........
love the old testament where God speaks directly to man.....
Diana, are there any other groups that celebrate mass in a different way and outside of the parish on a regular basis?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:02 am,
DeleteYes, the one I know of is Opus Dei.
Anonymous yes exactly:) and that is the reason why someone who leaves the way or any other group for example (for the correct reasons) cannot be thought of as a lesser catholic or a bad person or that it's the devils work. Sometimes it may be the case but it is not always the case so one cannot generalise an answer to be the same or similar to every person. God knows what he's doing more than anyone, more than Kiko more than some catechists more than some priests, because he talks to each one of us and he presents infinite numbers of ways by which he tries to get us closer to him :) so we have to let man be man and God be God.
DeleteI wanted to share that today at the start of the New Year, the Nino came into my home. I have been following the events of the past year and a half and formed my opinion. I admit that I looked less favorable upon RMS priest, but lo and behold, it was an RMS priest that brought the baby Jesus to my home today! Fr Edivaldo with the youth of Chalan Pago Church came to my home. He even gave us a blessing for our family. After they had gone, my husband said, "Do you know who that was" I replied, "Yes, it was G-d himself teaching me humility"
ReplyDeleteIt then hit me that the misunderstandings in our Archdiocese can only be solved with the love of Jesus Christ. He walked in my home today and blessed my family through a most unlikely priest I could ever imagine speaking with, let aloneimagine in my home, blessing my family!
I pray this new year that Jesus open our hearts to the true meaning of Christmas and allow His message of love and forgiveness to break down the barriers that separate us. I for one was struck with the realization that Christ does not want my name on a petition to solve the problems. He wants me first to open my heart. From there, He'll show me the way.
Thank you Fr. Edivaldo and Chalan Pago Church! G-d was truly working through you today!
God Bless,
Tai Girl
Chalan Pago
Dear Tai Girl,
DeleteThank you for sharing your beautiful story. :)
of the thousands of homes in Chalan Pago.....Christ visited yours. You are blessed.....truly blessed.
DeleteI live in Chalan Pago...I waited all day Christmas and all day on New Years Day...I asked my neighbors if the Nino came and everyone said the Nino did NOT come by....Did he go only to some houses?
DeleteOpen your heart
DeleteAnonymous January 2, 2015 at 4:31 PM
today.....open your heart.....he will visit your house
I live right across the OLOPSJ and the Nino did come come. I was outside in my garden and didn't even see Altar servers or volunteers. Same goes for Christmas, Holy Family Sunday and New Years. I'll watch in Three kings.
DeleteThank you Diana for clarifying my point to Keith
ReplyDeleteI started reading the new testament this morning.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
It is only through the Holy Spirit that leads the way.
just wanted to share.......I was at a family gathering yesterday which is never easy for my wife and I. One of her cousins is gay...female. Several years ago, she and I were talking about her situation and I said to her...Claire.....the one regret that I have is that if you continue with this lifestyle...we will never see the beautiful children God will bless you with. Several members of the family heard this which started the years of silent persecution. Who was I to say anything to their beloved Claire.
God made it possible for Claire and I to sit together yesterday......she is not with her partner anymore and started going to church. I asked her prepare herself before going to church....to go in with humility....to go in spirit.
The strained relationship between our family members seemed to ease a little yesterday.....several people saw us talking and actually came over to sit.... listen...........and laugh.
it was a good day
may the Spirit of our risen Jesus Christ be with you and everyone today Diana
Dear Diane,
ReplyDeleteCould you please tell me what differences are there in the Opus Dei Mass.
Thank you,
Dear Anonymous at 3:36 pm,
DeleteThe Pinoy Catholic blogsite has been very good at recording so-called liturgical abuses of Opus Dei. They complain about everything including the table cloth.
http://thepinoycatholic.blogspot.com/2014/02/when-will-see-this-in-manila.html
http://thepinoycatholic.blogspot.com/2014/03/gulp-fest-3-days-of-liturgical-darkness.html
Diana - of course the url's you have provided were bitten by the JUNGLE WATCH Tim ROhr.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:38 pm,
DeleteCCOG is simply an extension of the jungle. They are affiliated with a person and group of persons who have already made it publicly clear that the Archbishop should be removed.
Dear Diane - re jan 5 6:28
ReplyDeleteI went to the websites you provided, but didn't find any different liturgical additions or deletions in the Opus Dei Mass that were approved by Rome. I did find some changes that had no approval from Rome though. For changes even the bishops must ask permission.
Dear Anonymous at 9:59 am,
DeleteWe also did not add or delete anything from the liturgy other than what Rome approved for us. Everything in the Eucharistic celebration of the Way is already approved by Rome. It is the same with Opus Dei.