The division in Guam's Catholic Church may be caused by the disobedience of some priests. According to some of the comments published under my post Virtue of Obedience, it was alleged that a priest here on Guam made photocopies of a letter sent by the Archbishop and distributed to the parishioners. In the first place, a priest is supposed to bring his flock to Jesus Christ. He is NOT supposed to bring the flock to himself so he can gain the affection of the flock. The priest is also not supposed to be attached to his parish as he may be called to serve another parish or even be called to another country.
Getting back to photocopying the Archbishop's letter, for what reason would a priest distribute such letter to his parishioners? A priest took a vow of obedience to the Archbishop. This means that if the Archbishop tells the parish priest to open his parish to the NCW, the priest is supposed to obey the Archbishop. The only reason I see a priest distributing the Archbishop's letter to his parishioners is to rile up his flock against the Archbishop.
Because of his vow of obedience, he is to obey the Archbishop. The priest is not the one to determine whether the NCW is Catholic or not. Rome has already determined it to be Catholic. The priest is not the one to determine whether the NCW is approved by the Catholic Church or not. Rome has already approved of the NCW in that its Statutes and Catechetical Directory has been established. The priest is supposed to obey the Archbishop with the faith that God is the one taking the lead.
The Holy Bible shows that disobedience (which is a sin) leads to division. In the Book of Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and thus caused a separation between themselves and God. The harmony between man and woman have also been disrupted as a result of this sin.
The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is Pope-Bishop-Priest-Deacon. It is the same in the human family: Husband-Wife-Children. The head of the Church is Christ, and the head of the husband is also Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3). In this hierarchy, the Pope obeys Christ, the Bishops obeys the Pope, the Priests obeys the Bishops, and the Deacons obeys the Priests. The Catholic faithful obeys their Church leaders. A priest is not supposed to lead the Catholic faithful into going against the Bishop just because he does not want to obey the Bishop. If he does not want to obey the Bishop, that is his problem.
In the human family, it is the same. The husband is the head of the household, and he obeys Christ. The wife obeys her husband, and the children obeys their parents. For those liberal Catholics who believe that the husband and wife are both heads of the same household, I am sorry but that was never Catholic teaching and it also goes against what the Holy Bible says.
Throughout the Bible, God and His angels have always recognized the head of the house. God spoke only to Abraham, not to Sarah because Abraham was the head of the house. God also spoke to Adam even after the Fall before He addresses Eve. The only time God and the Angels spoke to a woman is when the woman is single or unmarried. The Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary when she was single. After she married Joseph, the angel never spoke to her again. Instead, the angel spoke to Joseph, the head of the house. Mary, on the other hand, was obedient to her husband Joseph. The angel also spoke to Zechariah and told him that his wife Elizabeth will bear a son. The angel did not speak directly to Elizabeth because she was not the head of the house.
Now, in Genesis who did Satan speak to? Satan was fully aware that Adam was the head of the house, but he spoke to Eve because his intention was to cause trouble.
What we learn in the Holy Bible still happens today. God still speaks to the Pope, the successor of the Apostle Peter. The Bishops obey the Pope with the faith that God leads the Pope. The priest also obeys the Bishop with the faith that God is the one who leads. A priest who disobeys is a priest with no faith.
No Duh Archbishop!
ReplyDeleteHad you sided and agreed and conformed with the Cardinal's interpretation of the Eucharist, -The Pope's interpretation essentially, your Archdiocese would not be divided as it is today.
Dear CU you are simply a naysayer to the Way. But what for? You cannot get anywhere by naysaying...
DeleteDear Catholics United,
ReplyDeleteThe pope never rejected the NCW. The Archbishop followed the Pope. He also did not reject the NCW. So, if anyone is in disobedience, it would be the priests who rejected the NCW.
I told you about the letter.....it may have been a leak from the chancery! Why do you assume that the priest photocopied and passed it out...
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:31 am,
DeleteAre we talking about the same thing here? An anonymous poster told him that one of the parishioners said that the photocopied the letter and gave it to several people.
The Archbishop can invite NCW to his Diocese. He cannot impose on anyone! Does he impose EF on many priests, huh, Diana, the one who answers from on high? You seem fairly into the matter of the priest and obedience for someone who has only been walking for 8 years. Why are you so focused on the clergy, Di?
DeleteYes we are talking about the same letters.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:49 p.m.
DeleteThe Archbishop has every authority to tell a priest to open his parish to the NCW. It is up to the laypeople if they want to join or not. And there lies the cause of the division. You have priests who made a vow of obedience to the Archbishop; yet, prefer to follow their own will.
This instrument NCW is open for everyone, if the parishioner chose not to join, is not obligatory. The mission is for those who have let the church and abandoned their marriage. I've witness marraiges healed and vocation restored. Married couple open to life (Submit to have more children). Again if you prefer natural religiosity then you can stay were you are. Reason for people who have left the Catholic Church is because beorguois type of life style. Some people yearn for spiritual adversity rather mediocricy.
DeleteAnonymous 2:49 PM, if you cannot impose acceptance of the Way on anyone then you cannot impose rejection of the Way either. Whoever want to walk, let them be walking!
DeleteLol 7:21..."if you prefer scraps then stay where you are" So you are saying you have the better faith because you are in the way and those that don't join have "natural religiosity" - as if it is a remedial understanding of faith? So you automatically know the depth of faith an individual has and their relationship with God just because they are not in the way?
DeletePadre Pio, Mother Teresa, Lucia, Jacinta, and Francesco, etc all had natural religiosity? These holy ones of our time were not in the way, yet they thrived in their spiritual life sans the way, so if one doesn't want to be walker then more power to them - they will still find God and be loved by him. Walkers do not have a monopoly on that so reserve your judgements to yourself!
Dear Anonymous at 7:39 am,
DeleteYou are correct that Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, and many other saints were not in the Way. A person does not have to be in the Way to become a holy saint. Nevertheless, the Way exists to help those who want to become a saint. God called every one of us to be holy. Padre Pio was able to be holy through the priesthood while Mother Teresa found it by being a nun. There are many movements and religious organizations out there to help people grow in faith. The NCW is just one of them. But we are supposed to grow in faith, so that we know that it is God's hand who steers the Catholic Church. In the Way, we do not go by blind faith. If a catechists tells us to steal or murder, we know enough to report them. But we also know that when a catechists tells us to obey the Archbishop, we know that it is God speaking through him because he is not saying anything that goes against the Church. It is those who oppose the Archbishop who goes against the Church. And the priests who incite the flock to go against the Archbishop has committed the worst obedience. Not only did he sinned, but he is responsible for many others falling into sin.
AnonymousJuly 3, 2014 at 7:39 AM I have to disagree with you, the saints that you've mentioned did not have regular natural religiosity. Attending Sunday mass regularly is okay. But Pope Francis called out every baptize Christian ( Catholic) to evangelize and not to stay complacent. The Saints went out on mission and took their Christianity to another level. They (Saints) announced the Gospel and lived it. For Example Saint Father Damien (Belgium Priest) volunteered to quest to the Island of Moloka'i; to erect a Parish for the lepers. He was a healthy 33 years old when he started the mission, he gave the sick and the dying hope and love. He knew he is at risk to die but he risk with GOD. He was also persecuted and ridicule after he was diagnosed of leprosy. The Government Clinical Directors claim that he had sexual engagement with the lepers in Molokai but he devoted himself of not breaking his oath.
DeleteI apologize if I came to be arrogant on what I posted and I hope you find a way in your heart to forgive me. No your not scrap but what I'm saying that you don't have to join the Neocatechumenal Way if you don't want to, but the Way's mission to bring back those people were broken and do not believe the Catholic Church, like my close relative who join the Harvest Baptist Church. Just to let you know also that the Way encourage me to educate myself about our beautiful Catholic Church and defend it on whoever dare to say is wrong. In fact it made me grew to LOVE our Catholic Church. Again the way is not intend to suffocate you but the WAY is a nucleus to bring those brothers back to our Catholic Apostolic Church. We all are guilty of secularism and this INSTRUMENT is the way that the CATHOLIC Church still exist that Saint Peter received from Jesus Christ.
God Bless You.
Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate your humility. I am not in the Way but I recognize that it is an avenue for those searching or those who have fallen away. I too had a relative who was searching and because of the Way, he fell in love with the Catholic Church all over again and strengthened his marriage. In the same token, I recognize other means by which people can come close to Christ. In essence we are all called, but in different ways.
DeleteI am journeying myself in this life and I am a great sinner in need of forgiveness.
God Bless you all for the good you do in Jesus' name.
AnonymousJuly 3, 2014 at 7:54 PM Your welcome and remember the CATHOLIC CHURCH is a Mother that always loves you, whether your in despair. You witness your relative marriage healed thru the Holy Spirit in the WAY. We have to pray for each other with LOVE and we are all Sinners including Clergies and our Bishop. Because they're human like us. We are not all promise of assurance of salvation but we have to pray and thrive for holiness and this reward us heaven. Pray to our holy Virgin for all of us to reconcile, after all we are Christian (CATHOLIC).
DeleteCaritas Christi Urget Nos
As usual, Diana, you assume the worse of anyone who is not the Archbishop.
ReplyDeleteThe person who showed me the letter said that the parishioners had heard of plans to bring the NCW to their parish. They did not want to have a community formed there and made their feelings known. The priest gave some parishioners the photocopy to let them know the decision to form a community was out of his or their hands because the Archbishop had already decided. As much as the parishioners liked the priest they were not willing to be subjected to having the NCW forced on them. And they have prevailed, so far.
BTW: This all happened 5 years before JungleWatch came into view but something tells me you’re still going to blame this on Tim Rohr. No surprise there.
Copy and paste wherever or whenever you please. Tim Rohr is responsible.
DeleteThe archbishop asked a few priests to get involved in a particular area of parish ministry: the NCW. Why is this a parish ministry? Because NCW is coming out of parishes, by the desires of parishioners who want to walk. NCW cannot be forced on anyone. This is all wrong to say. Only those who willingly participate in the initial catechism are allowed to join. Parishioners who have the Kerygma are feeling the calling for more... that is why they join the NCW! Now, the archbishop asked these priests to provide long term support for these parishioners. Was this request unjustifiable? Only if serving your parish is unjustifiable.
DeleteAnon 1:15 PM, how can you prevent a community from being formed? It is none of your business, but the business of those who want to walk!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:15 pm,
ReplyDeleteAs I said, the division in Guam's Catholic Church Is the result of some disobedient priests. They made a vow of obedience to the Archbishop, and they disobeyed in the worst way possible by getting their flock to support him against the Archbishop.
Diana you don't seem to understand......We didn't want the NCW in our parish! So stop it!
DeleteThe problem Diana is, the the Archbishop wants to force the NCW down our throats! We don't want it in our parish so we protested! Why can't you understand this!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:22 and 4:37 p.m.,
DeleteYou do not have to join the NCW if you do not want. Nevertheless, a priest should obey the Archbishop since they took a vow of obedience to him. Perhaps, you need to read my last two posts, especially the one on Cardinal Arinze on Obedience.
DeleteOh, Diana, once again you interpret the priest's action as being "disobedient." The nature of Filipino priests is NOT to rock the boat. The only priests who received the letters in question were Filipino priests. They were told that if they wanted to be incardinated into the Archdiocese they would have to undergo NCW catechesis and assist in the formation of new communities in their parishes. If they refused, their services would no longer be required. This Filipino priest told his parishioners that it was not up to him or them about whether the NCW would come to the parish because the decision had ALREADY been made.
Do you honestly believe that any of the Filipino priests would DARE to go against the Archbishop and risk the chance of getting incardinated? It’s just not in their nature. You are condemning this poor man who only shared the letter to impress upon his parishioners that the Archbishop had made his decision. There was nothing else to do.
BTW: Did it ever occur to you that the Archbishop’s threat of refusing to incardinate Filipino priests unless they agreed to participating in forming new communities can be perceived as bullying? Did it ever occur to you that the Archbishop used the same language (seek a “benevolent bishop”) on Fr. Paul Gofigan last year?
You admitted on 6/28 that Fr. Paul's “disobedience” is because he didn’t open his parish to the Way. Fr. Paul actually said the NCW could start a community. But they would have to use the lower chapel and have services open to the rest of the parish. The NCW refused to abide by those conditions and declared WAR on Fr. Paul. The only thing the Archbishop had to do was to develop an airtight case against Fr. Paul which, in his haste, he failed to do.
Anyway, your admission and the Archbishop’s threat verifies that the case brought against Fr. Paul is bogus and has nothing to do with a former employee and everything to do with the NCW.
Ano 4:37 PM your minion protested against the Archbishop? Who is Lutherism now? Think and read what you just post. Who has the protentatism behavior here?
DeleteAnon 4:22 PM, it is NOT your decision sir! If your fellow parishioners want to walk, then who are you to tell them "no, you can't"!? You don't have any saying in deciding about the fate of their willingness. If they want to join the Way, then they have every right to walk in your parish!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:33 p.m.,
DeleteI did not condemn the Filipino priests. They condemned themselves when they disobeyed the Archbishop. They were the ones who took a vow of obedience. I do not considered it as bullying because the Archbishop has authority over the priests. Do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about Father Paul. I was referring to those priests on Guam who disobeyed the Archbishop when he asked them to open up their parish for the NCW. The priests has no authority to tell the Archbishop what to do.
Anon 1:15 PM - on Feb 11, 2011 if your Catholic Medjugorje sent a message The Devil fuels on disobedience. If you don't value your soul and remain to your natural religiosity. So be it. My Goal is Heaven.
ReplyDelete1:55 there you go again with the condemning. Is not the "Cathloic Medjugorje" yours as well or are you in a different church?
DeleteAnonymousJuly 3, 2014 at 7:43 AM Your not making any sense, your heart brew anger you can't even key your words in a complete sentence. Be Calm and do the Rosary.
Delete"The priest is not the one to determine whether the NCW is approved by the Catholic Church or not. Rome has already approved of the NCW in that its Statutes and Catechetical Directory has been established"
ReplyDeleteAs in the case of Fr Paul, it is absolutely reasonable and not contrary to obedience for a pastor to insist that the NCW do only those things that have been explicitly allowed by the Holy See.
If there is confusion about these issues, it is also absolutely incumbent on the Bishop to clarify matters and to assist both the pastors and their parish communities in understanding how the activities of the NCW are in accordance with the instructions of the Holy See, and the rest of the Catholic world.
Unfortunately, in the case of Guam, there is no leadership by the Archbishop in this sense, and so confusion reigns. In fact, the best an ordinary person can hope to get, from you for example Diana, are ridiculous statements like "Kiko said its Ok", and "the pope told Kiko in private, then Kiko told us"! Seriously, this is the best you can do!
If anyone should persist in asking questions, they are then met with "five popes approve us". Shameful.
Dear Anonymous at 4:40 p.m.,
DeleteThe only way to dispel the confusion is to stop listening to the jungle and start listening to the Pope and the Archbishop. These were the leaders whom God has chosen and put under the authority of the priest. Obedience comes with the faith that God is the one who leads the people He put in charge.
"i don't know why he wants us to conform?" Archbishop Apuron.
Deletecomform- to comply.
when you read this quote from the Archbishop do the logic functions in your brain simply shut off and you believe you are still conscientiously right? Archbishop Apuron, at the time spokesman for the movement tells the world that the NCW at least in his Diocese, will not OBEY the Cardinal.
Hard to dispute what the man actually says. C'mon now tell me i'm wrong and everything you all do conforms...
Dear Anonymous at 9:29 p.m.,
DeleteThere is no problem with disagreements, but in the end, one has to obey. The Archbishop obeyed by accepting the NCW and the changes that came with it. The priest must also do the same now that the Archbishop has told them to open their parish for the NCW.
Anon:440 It's impossible to remain in prayer despite your in sin .
ReplyDeleteSt. Therese of Avila -
Let it Go. Believe in the authority of the Archbishop.
Dear Anonymous at 6:47 p.m.,
ReplyDeleteWhen God told Abraham to leave his country, Abraham did not question God about it. When God told Abraham that He will make him the father of many nations, Abraham did not ask God "how." This is what "obedience to faith" is.
You say you agree with Junglewatch and you listen to the Bishop? Tim Rohr is NOT a bishop. You cannot agree with Junglewatch (which is against the Archbishop) and say that you listen to the Bishop. That is a contradiction.
63 is a doozy!! It's as if the Synod foresaw the negative possibilities of the movement and steers those in the movement to unify and not be parallel. i.e. To Cite a recent example of this no-no, there should be NO SUCH THING as a TWO Easter Vigils for the Parishes.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately what the Synod has feared and warned has happened within our Diocese because of these small group celebrations. Please write the Nuncio everyone. Let us put this Diocese back into order. Face it, despite the good that the NCW does with one's coming back to their faith, it can't help but be derisive to the overall development of the Church because of all of it's activities which create a segregation between Catholics.
What makes you so sure that Anon @ 6:47 PM is from Guam, Diana? 6:47 could be from another diocese. That's why 6:47 said "I listen to the Church. I listen to my Bishop." Notice that 6:47 began the comment referring to the Archbishop. But 6:47 did not write Archbishop at the end. It has been pointed out that Archbishop Apuron will correct anyone who calls him "Bishop." 6:47 could be a visitor from anywhere in the world. You yourself said that you have readers from all around the world. Therefore if 6:47's Bishop is not Archbishop Apuron, it would not be a contradiction for 6:47 to listen to his/her Bishop and still agree with JungleWatch.
ReplyDeleteMakes sense, right?
Diana, YOU are also not a bishop. Stop pontificating.
ReplyDeleteDear Catholics United
ReplyDeleteThese small group of celebrations was approved by the Vatican. The Vatican did not create a segregation. Many of the members in my community have built up the parish church by becoming lectors and alter servers. They volunteered their time to fix up and maintain the Church grounds. Others became CCD instructors for the parish. A couple of them now attend the parish mass on a daily basis. Tell me, what do you do help build up your parish other than sit in the pews every Sunday Mass?
Dear Anonymous at 1:22 a.m.,
ReplyDeleteHe could have written it, knowing that the Archbishop is a bishop anyway. I did the same thing in some of my comments and posts.
Dear Anonymous at 6:07 a.m.,
ReplyDeleteI am not pontificating. I am posting Catholic doctrine to show you what I learned in the NCW. I learned that a priest takes a vow of obedience and is supposed to obey the Archbishop. We learned that we are to follow our Church leaders and all those whom God put in authority over us.
Thank you Diana, breath of Jesus's spirit my prayers.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:12 a.m.
Delete??????? I do not understand, but you are welcome.
Anon at 1.22pm , you are correct. I am not from Guam.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 10:15 a.m.,
ReplyDeleteYou are still in contradiction when you agree with Junglewatch (whose author is from Guam). Junglewatch preach against the Archbishop and agrees that priests can resist the Archbishop, which goes against the Church teachings and contrary to what Cardinal Arinze says in his book to young priests.
Anon-6:47PM is kinda confusing. He is being rooted by another Anon from Guam. What accomplishment can he bring?
ReplyDeleteAnon at 4:04PM. Ad hominem
ReplyDelete