Monday, July 7, 2014

Why The Concern Over Money?


Under one of my posts Gift of Fortitude, a few comments were made about financial ruin, a mountain of debts, etc.  Where is this coming from? Obviously, Catholics United and a few others under the thread feel that the Archdiocese of Guam is heading toward financial ruin.  Where is this concern coming from that we are up to our necks in debts and are heading toward financial ruin? 

So, the Archbishop has a luxury car.  However, one poster pointed out that the car was a gift to the Archbishop.  Is the Archbishop also living in a grand palace?  Is it because we have a seminary in Yona?  The Redemptor Mater Seminary in Yona was founded by the Archbishop on December 8, 1999, which was 14 years ago.  Fourteen years is a pretty long time, and all during that time, not a single church on Guam has closed down.  So, why concern over money so suddenly?   

Compared to the German Bishop Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst, he used the money on building his residence.  The Bishop of Gemany was spending millions of dollars on luxuries such as a $20,000 bathtub and a $1.1 million landscaped garden.  Do you see anything like that at the chancery?  The chancery looks pretty much the same for the last 20 years or so.  So, why is there talk of financial ruin and mountains of debts?   


65 comments:

  1. So do the Catholics of Guam, NCW or NOT, whether they be, small business person, retiree, school teacher, priest, altar server, have a right to know how their donations are spent in this Diocese? And what liabilities, if any, it is encumbered with? What investments, if any, it holds?

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    1. Dear Catholics United,

      My Parish Church always publish its financial report every month in the Church bulletin, so I already know where my money is going whenever I donate to the parish. In the NCW, we always make an announcement every collection as to where the money is going to and how much is collected. Receipts are also collected.

      I do not see anything unusual about how the diocese spends its money. Personally, I think we should only have one seminary. The John Paul II Seminary is a waste since only one person stays there. The diocese spends 100% on that seminary while it only spends 20% on the RMS seminary due to the fact that the RMS seminary fundraises the other 80%.

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    2. Diana, raising the 80% for the RMS sounds like a personal problem.

      BTW JESS you r a good writer!

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    3. Dear Anonymous at 6:37 p.m.,

      Could you explain how it is a personal problem? And who is Jess?

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    4. 80 percent from the Gala Dinner? NO

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    5. We would be enormously grateful if the pile of debt theory proved untrue. But it has not been proved untrue. So prove it.

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    6. Dear Diana,

      I will have to disagree with you when you state "The John Paul II Seminary is a waste since only one person stays there." It is not a waste, one vocation is good enough. Though I am a member of the NCW I support both. To say the John Paul II seminary is a waste is not right. Again, it is not a waste.

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    7. Dear David,

      It is not the vocation that I am disagreeing with. The waste is that the Archdiocese is paying for something where only one person stays. It would not be a waste if there were more people there. But that is not the case. I think that the seminarian at the John Paul II seminary can still be accommodated at the RMS seminary by isolating him from the rest. He can have his own room, his own studies, and even his own meal away from the rest of the seminarians since that is what he wishes. I do not think one would need an entire facility for one person. I see that as a waste of money.

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    8. Dear Anonymous at 8:51 p.m.,

      In addition to the Gala dinner, they also have the Christmas concert and the St. Patrick's celebration. God provides.

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    9. Dear Anonymous at 8:54 p.m.,

      If you are part of Concerned Catholics, you can call the Archbishop's secretary and make arrangements to meet with him and his financial advisor. I am neither the Archbishop nor the financial advisor.

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    10. Geez Diana thought the only fundraiser is the Gala! RMS always say the Christmas concert is free, now you say they they pass the basket? The St. Patrick celebration is free or do they pass the basket too? Where does this money go to? It is not a parish! So to be fair, the Mercy Notre Dame, Mercedarians, and the Dominican Sisters can say hey, we will celebrate the feast of our founders and pass the basket around so we can survive? Let's be fair to all! If one religious order can do this all should be allowed! Why is this only afforded to the RMS?

      I bet you have been in the NCW since your parents joined and didn't start walking the way until you were thirteen.

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    11. Dear Anonymous at 3:59 a.m.,

      Why are you up so early??? Have you not ever attend the Christmas concert and their St. Patrick celebration? They hold auctions during those events, and donations are always asked to support the seminary.

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    12. Why am I up early? I have just finished my shift! Don't talk about money because you guys do the same thing! Like I said this should be afforded to the other religious orders!

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    13. Dear Anonymous at 10:04 a.m.,

      We know where the NCW money is going. You are not in the NCW and don't contribute anything to the NCW anyway. The members of the NCW knows where their money is going because it is being announced.

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    14. Dear Anonymous at 4:29 a.m.,

      I am a Co-Responsible, and I have seen some of the receipts.

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    15. Let's see the receipt from the Cathedral....anyone?

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    16. Dear Anonymous at 9:37 pm,

      Why only the receipts? Go to the meeting to find out the entire financial report.

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  2. Diana, unlike the NCW who don't even know where the money goes- the "Real World" people do. Ask any finance council member of ANY parish and they will GLADLY tell you- - the parish assessments are KILLING them. Cathedral owes almost hundreds of thousands in insurance costs to Calvo's Insurance and other companies. Power bills, utility bills, etc. St. Thomas Aquinas is in financial ruin and will be closing down. Malojloj Retreat House would have been a great place to house and invite the Poor Clares to minister but what did the Archbishop do- waste more money and now it sits idle. Parishes are swimming in debt. Churches need repairs, cemeteries are broke and only the rich can afford to be buried there- the lists goes on-and the NCW/RMS keeps on thriving? The people aren't giving cause the failed leadership of the Archbishop. Poor financial decisions, mismanagement and a lack of concern. He will single handedly destroy the Catholic Church of Guam. The secrets to sell Tumon parish, guilt trip a family to donating the land, or the easement issues of St. Andrew Kim- shall I go on? The sad part is you ALREADY know everything I posted- you just pretend it isn't there. If you knew my name and what I did for a living you would be shaking in your shoes cause the truth hurts and we are coming for you. See you at the meeting.

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    1. Anon 8:35 PM I am not afraid cause I trust in God. Let it close down. ST. Thomas Aquinas was not the Archbishops idea. Guess who. IS YOUR INITIAL R.U? I DON'T FEAR NO MAN.

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    2. Dear Anonymous at 8:35 p.m.,

      I agree that it is not bad to know the financial information, but the timing is very suspect. Nevertheless, the Archbishop did say that he and his financial advisor will meet with Catholics Concerned if they are interested in knowing the financial report of the Archdiocese. So, if they are concerned, they should take up his offer.

      I do not know about your parish, but my parish has publish the financial reports in the Church bulletin. The NCW knows where the money goes because as I said before every collection every brother is informed where the money will be going to and how much has been collected. I have asked information from the financial council member at my parish, so I know the financial condition of my parish.

      As for St. Thomas Aquinas High School, where did you hear that they are closing down? It is not even in the news.

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    3. Anon 8:35 PM the communities and including myself don't care where the money goes. As long we built our treasure is in heaven. Money is garbage it comes in go. If you love money, work for a bank.

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    4. Timing is not suspect- I've been sounding the alarm for years- I've advised on how we can save money- generate donations, etc. But to no avail.- It was all taken under advisement. How sad it will be that the Archdiocese cannot live within its means- Businesses and creditors will have to turn to lawsuits to recoup their losses. As for St. Thomas Aquinas- The school is in need of (paid) enrollment. The school owes close to 100grand to one business and another 100grand to another to name a few. It was the brain child of Msgr. Benavente to compete with St. John's cause the Shimizu's didn't get their way. It's not in the news cause it is not news. There is SO much more that can be said. All in all- everyone is accountable for their deeds, actions,and choices. The money wells are dry and the donations are no longer flowing and since money is garbage why does the archdiocese need our "garbage". I'd gladly take out the garbage myself and give it to the poor, needy, or the Capuchin Friars directly. (Does this make me any less Catholic?- cause I am not supporting our archdiocese?) This is not R.U. (but good try) Keep guessing- BUT If you tell me who you are "Diana" I will tell you who I am. Lastly to Deacon Kim and the rest of the Accounting Office of the Archdiocese- Please pay your bills! Tell your pastors to pay their bills, this diocese is in worse shape than the Guam's government or the Federal Government. To Anon: 1:26- You can't "donate" your way into heaven. Garbage is garbage- if money is bad then why does Kiko always ask for some? If you want- give me your "garbage" and I will gladly put in a good word for you in Heaven.

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 2:05 p.m.,

      You appear to be someone from the inside as though you have seen the financial books. I do know the financial condition of my parish because I did ask. We were about two months behind, but now we are caught up with the bills.

      The Catholic Church gets its money from either donations or fundraising, so withdrawing your support is not going to help the church. Telling others to stop donating is also not helping the Catholic Church.

      It is actually not money that is bad. It is the LOVE of money that is bad. Putting the money in the trash bag is a symbol of showing that we are not attached or in love with money in any way.

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    6. Anon 2:05 Christ has a parable about money: Give what Ceasar is Ceasar. Give what God is God.

      Thanks for visiting.Mr. Rohr.

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    7. Nope not Mr. Rohr either. (I know of him, but not on a personal level) That parable is true- God=the poor, lowly, needy, - Our Archdiocese= greedy & mismanaged and last time I check the NCW and Televangelist Kiko is not God nor doing God's work- they are doing their OWN work- what THEY choose to do. So my money now goes to the Poor and the young men studying to be Capuchin Franciscans. Got to go I have an important 10am tomorrow that I have to prepare for.

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    8. Dear Anonymous at 4:41 p.m.,

      Good night, Mr. Rohr.

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  3. Diana – the following individuals who are against the Archbishop like Concerned Catholic, Tim Rohr, Chuck White, Mary Lou,Maria, United and Janet B are obsessed to destroy the Archbishop and this community who encourage to cease donation to our Catholic Churches here on Guam.
    Why this money thing emerge all of sudden? Everyone knows, the root of this problem is because of Gofigan.
    I found a fitting reading in the OT about the Rebellion of Absalon (David’s Son) and Davids Flight. In 1st Samuel 15:7-14,24-30 and 16:5-13 . Absalon was looking for King David and see k to kill him but instead of David fighting back to destroy his son; he fled instead. David’s own men turn on him and transferred their loyalty to Absalom, David’s remaining servants commanded them to get UP and flee, this happen after learning a conspiracy his own son Absalom to kill him for his Crown. David is the King who saves Israel thru God against Palestine. Despite all this, David said If God is not pleased with him. Let him do to me as he sees fit. As he flees to Mount of Olive, David and his servant cover their head and cried there to God. As David reaches Bahurim a man named Shimie (descendant of Saul) starts to curse him and started to throw stones at him. Remember Saul’s jealousy and death. Shimie have said some harsh words…. Away,away you murderer and wicked man! Despite David never killed Saul and his Son. Shimie also said to David the Lord has requited you for all the bloodshed in the family of Saul and the Lord has given your kingdom to your son Absalom and now suffer ruin because you’re a murderer. This is the wicked intention of this group. Destroy the Archbishop. But it’s okay, a servant of Christ is not meant to be love.
    So David gallops off as Shimei abreast to curse and throw them stones. If you read all the post on Jungle Watch they wish the Archbishop to fall ill and die or to step down of his duties. They chose not to respect him but his in authority. This is happening to the Archbishop with all the attacks that Tim Rohr, Chuck White and Catholic Concerned are plotting.
    What so interesting also Saint Pope Clement letter to the Corinthians; he said; The Command has been written; Cling to the Saints; for those who clings to them will be sanctified, there is a passage in scripture as well states : With innocent man you will be innocent and with the chosen you will be chosen also; likewise with the perverse you will deal perversely. Do we not possess the same spirit of grace which was given to us and the same calling in Christ? Why do we tear apart and divide the body of Christ? Why do we revolt against our own body? Why do we reach such a degree of insanity that we forget that we are members one of another? Do not forget Jesus words our Lord; Woe to the MAN; it would be better for him if he had not been born rather than scandalize one of my chosen ones. Indeed it would be better for him to have a great millstone round his neck and to be drowned in the sea than that HE lead many astray one of my chosen ones.

    (Continuation)

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  4. Continued.....
    Your division has led many astray , has made many doubts, has made many despair and has brought grief upon us all. And still your rebellion continues. What did Saint Paul said Even then you developed factions, Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote to the Corinthians concerning himself, Cephas and Apollos. This division involved you in less sin because you were supporting apostles of high reputation and a person approved them.
    We should put an end to this division immediately. Let us fall down before our master (Christ ) and implore his mercy with our tears. Then he will be reconciled to us and restore us to the practice of brotherly love that befit us. For this is the gate of justice that lead us to life; as it written ; Open the Gates of Justice. When I have entered there, I shall praise the lord. This is the gate of the Lord ; the just shall enter through it. A person maybe faithful, he may have the power to utter hidden mysteries; he may be discriminating in the evaluation of what is said and pure in his actions. But the greater he seems to be , the humbly he ought to act and the more zealous he should be for the common good rather than his own interest.
    Again these groups are not only HALF Hearted Catholic but also Cafeteria Catholics. These are Catholics who decide for themselves which doctrine of the Catholic Church they like and which ones they don’t like. The ones they like they obey (NOT). They obey and tout the others. But the one they don’t like, then they disobey and then they bad mouth the Archbishop and the recent Pope and the whole Church.

    God help us. I implore you not to resist evil.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 10:46 p.m.,

      As I said in one of my comments above, knowing the financial situation of our Archdiocese is not a bad thing, BUT the timing is very suspect.......especially after they have already announced to their members not to contribute any money to the AAA or the Catholic Church.

      I have to wonder if this was a deliberate set up on their part. They tell everyone not to donate their money to the Church, and then demand to see the financial reports. Why now? The NCW and the RMS was on Guam for about 15 years. Why did they not ask for the financial report 10 years ago?

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    2. Gamaliel speaking in Acts 5: 38-39 perhaps realized that even he did not know what spirit was at work with the disciples. The pharisees persecuted what they did not know. I don't believe our Arch Bishop Apuron woke up one morning and said to himself...I am going to build a seminary or two. He would have failed. I do believe that he was inspired by a greater spirit that continues to help him through all his persecutions and judgements. He quietly suffers never defending himself. Gamaliel gave some good common sense advise...you better be careful

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    3. Good point J.Bautista.
      Peace

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    4. Open your eyes Juan.

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  5. Hey Diana!
    Is this your blog too?
    thewayguam@blogspot.com

    Stumbled across it this morning, its a new one I guess.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 4:45 a.m.,

      No, this is the only blogsite I have.

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    2. Your only blogsite. Good.

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  6. Catholics UnitedJuly 8, 2014 at 8:20 AM

    "I do not see anything unusual about how the diocese spends its money. "

    Respectfully Diana, but how would you know from seeing? Incoming cash flow is mostly CASH, the most untraceable monetary instrument there is. But i am sure that the Financial Reporting system in the parish and up to the Archdiocese as a whole is beyond reproach. However, what does the report "say" about the condition of the Archdiocese? I think that it what people want to know.

    @10:46pm...."I implore you not to resist evil" ????

    Nobody's deciding doctrine here people are calling for accountability. The Archbishops seat is both a Holy and a Public one. A public one in that he will have to demonstrate accountability at all levels of his office including proper fiduciary governance of his Diocese.

    The publication of the audited financials puts to rest doubts and all of it's imagined incrimination. To withhold it at this point just casts a longer shadow.

    Call me and other people who have different opinions evil again please @10:46pm and then simply subtract a room and closet from your house in Heaven.

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    1. Dear Catholics United,

      If you are part of Concerned Catholics, the Archbishop made it clear that all you have to do is contact his office to make an arrangement to see him and his financial advisors. I never said that you have no right to know what the financial report is. It is the timing that I find suspicious.

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    2. Catholics UnitedJuly 8, 2014 at 9:55 AM

      Diana,

      I am not part of that group at all. I wish i could comment on the timing other than to repeat that old agage, "when it rains it pours".

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    3. United-your shooting in the dark right now by destroying your own body.

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    4. Not a problem if it burns the leach off of this Archdiocese

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    5. Dear Catholics United,

      The Apostle Paul said that if one part of the body suffers, so do the rest of the body. I do not think I need to make you understand that if you have a fractured leg, every part of your body will feel the pain even if the fracture is only on your leg.

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    6. United - leaching off what? What you feed off the Jungle? Like what Diana stated, be careful. You'll suffer yourself tremendously. You are passing judgements that you have no FACTUAL insight. This can bring you a world of hurt and the salvation of your soul. You need to go to confession.

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    7. United- if it burns your soul to iternal damnation. You'll pay a big price for this; not by us or the Archbishop but by the mercy throne. You have to repent your sin. Just an advice.

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  7. kool there is two. http://thewayguam.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-invitation.html someone who share insight also. Continue Diana, your doing a great job

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:13 a.m.

      I took a look at thewayguam.blogspot.com. The blogger has a great background music. It is one of the Way's songs. If I had to choose a Neocatechumenal Way song for my blog, I would have a difficult time choosing one. I like a lot of them. But I do have a blog song, and the song is not even a Way song. I only picked it because I love the video that came with the song. :-)

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  8. United - why all of a sudden? Tim Rohr stated in Patty Arroyo shows few days ago that the Archbishop remain silent and he said the only way he would respond to cease money. So what do you call that then? Is not to ease your mind but the intention to malign the Church but you don't realize this affect not only the Archbishop but all of us. So don't complain when the operational norm is not there because of this plot. Can you imagine lethany book for funerals and baptismal. This will make an ripple effect and you don't know it. Imagine a Priest cannot drive to the dieing because he has no Gas money to give that poor person the last rite.
    So United your are free and continue with your plot. If I was the Archbishop I would say "I wash my hands".

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    1. Catholics UnitedJuly 8, 2014 at 10:14 AM

      How does the request for financial transparency regarding the operating controls of the Archdiocese malign the church?

      9:22AM. I've personally had baptisms, a wedding, funerals and burials. it will have no effect because all those services are PAID FOR by the family to the Parish directly in which it takes place.

      There is no plot. There is only a request. Concerned Catholics,not just that group by the way, concerned catholics would like to know where is all the money going?



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    2. Dear Catholics United,

      Why now? Is your parish closing down? Is your parish running out of candles and cannot afford to purchase more? Are you concern that the Archbishop is taking trips that you think are junk trips? Do you think the Archbishop has put in a $20,000 bath tub in the chancery?

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    3. United is a parish council to provide you that were that momey goes. Not as whole. Your reasoning is tottaly an attack to mainly aim at the Archdiocese.

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    4. Okay then, let's wait until the churches have to close down... Dumb

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  9. He is a man, an insight more about the Holy Spirit which many fail to see.

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  10. Diana what CatholicConcerned is doing smoking the Archbishop out of the hole. Is no longer a moralism thing. Is more destroying. I think they should convert to Islam, they appear to be extremist.

    I heard Tim Rohr also with Patty Arroyo. By the way SHE is also an ANTI- Neocathechumenal way. I'll Intel the details later.

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    1. Intel? doesn't sound very upright and neo to me. Shame on you.

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    2. Maybe they can also intel it to the Nuncio before his arrival sometime this week! He might be interested to hear /read it. Yep the day has finally come!

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  11. I just read the other blog site sharing, it gave me goose pimples. This what he shares;
    first heard about the NCW from my former pastor. Although he was very neutral with his words when discussing about the NCW, I grew a negative sense of the NCW presence on Guam. For this reason, I was always weary on anything dealing with this "group", and because of this ignorance I missed the invitation on numerous occasions.

    On more than one occasion, there was a group of about nine people who would attend the Sunday Parish Mass. These people were not from the parish. They would join in the celebration and then at the end, the pastor would invite one of them to the podium to share something. Most of the time it was someone speaking about their personal struggles and about how the NCW had come into their lives at the right moment. This testimony would last a few minutes and then the group would be at the doors passing out these cards inviting the parishioners to a catechesis for adults and youth.
    I always ignored these cards and these people for that matter. I would try my best to slip out through one of the side doors just to avoid having to deal with them. I was always successful.
    Well, one night as I was heading home I realized that the church lights were on so I drove by slowly, I thought it was a rosary or a meeting that I had yet to hear about. With how slow I was going I realized it was the catechesis. I thought to myself, "Why dont I pull in? Whats all this secret stuff about? If it is secret, they will send me away." I had these thought because of prior conversations I had with people against the group. I had already expected them to send me away, or to atleast give me the vibe that they were hiding something. I was wrong.
    I went in, took a seat at the back of the church and put up with the talk for about an hour.
    I said to myself, "this is all a bunch of crap, this is beginner stuff".
    They gave a general invitation for everyone to return in a few days. No one ran up to me afterwards to meet me or put in a few last words to get me to come back. I thought I wasnt gonna return too.

    There is hope for others just like me. Again is not for everyone

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  12. Dear Diana —

    As the Administrator of this blog, I think it is important that you screen the comments submitted more closely. On 7 July at 10:46 PM, “Anonymous” mentioned my name, among others, in his/her list of “individuals who are against the Archbishop” and claimed that “If you read all the post on Jungle Watch they wish the Archbishop to fall ill and die or to step down of his duties.”

    Note the accusation that “… ALL THE POST [sic] on Jungle Watch … wish the Archbishop to fall ill and die …” (my emphasis) is a blatant lie. While there have been calls for the Archbishop to step down, NOT ONCE — much less “ALL the post [sic]” — in the months of the blog’s existence did anyone “… wish the Archbishop to fall ill and die.” As the Administrator you approved the publication of that lie. You responded to the comment only in terms of the request for the financial report and did not challenge that accusation.

    While I may have been critical of the Archbishop and his actions, I have never wished him ill health and/or death and I take strong exception to that accusation. That you allowed this comment to be published in your blog indicates your tacit agreement to the writer’s accusation. I repeat: I have never once written a single word wishing the Archbishop ill health and/or death and neither has anyone else. I challenge you and/or the Anonymous writer to provide proof to the contrary — in a post PRIOR to the 7 July comment (since it will be simple for someone to post a comment reflecting that claim now that I’ve brought it up) — and publish it here. I’ll check back periodically for the evidence.

    BTW: I have recently stated my support for the more creative means of sustaining parishes by writing checks directly to utility agencies, purchasing gift cards/certificates for supplies, etc. after years of contributing cold, hard cash to the support of our local churches. The request made by Concerned Catholics for Guam is the release of an audit that was completed in 2012 by Deloitte & Touche, long before this whole controversy erupted. Many of us had contributed money that year — and in prior years — so I believe we have every right to know how the money we contributed at that time was spent. The audit was ordered by Rome and has been completed. All the Archbishop has to do is release the results. What’s the problem?

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    1. Dear Mary Lou,

      The Anonymous poster who made that comment may have interpreted the following comment published in June 26, 2014 at 11:37 a.m. in Junglewatch as meaning that the poster in the jungle wanted the Archbishop to get sick and die. According to the comment posted in the Jungle, it stated:

      AnonymousJune 26, 2014 at 11:37 AM

      Archbishop best to resign. But we know you will not. So seven more years of exposing your ways. Every day we will continue this blog until you have gone. Only then is the church safe when you have gone.

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/06/its-time-for-this.html#comment-form

      According to this comment posted in the jungle, the anonymous poster already stated that he knew the Archbishop will not resign. So, since he already declared in the second sentence that the Archbishop will not resign, the following statements after that implies something else. According to the statement (Capitalization is my emphasis): "Every day we will continue this blog UNTIL YOU HAVE GONE. Only then is the church safe WHEN YOU HAVE GONE."

      "Until you have gone" and "when you have gone" cannot be interpreted as "resignation" because the poster already made it clear in his comment that he knew the Archbishop would not resign. Therefore, this comment above "until you have gone" and "when you have gone" can be implied as something more than resignation. For example, when a person dies, sometimes, we say that they are gone.

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    2. Dear Diana —

      The 26 June JungleWatch comment that you offer as evidence is not a definitive statement wishing ill-health and/or death to the Archbishop, nor was it referenced in the original comment of 7 July in your blog. Be that as it may, that comment is one that is actually open to another interpretation —not just the one you offer.

      Granted, the JungleWatch comment indicates a belief that the Archbishop will not voluntarily resign. The JungleWatch comment also indicates that the task of exposing the ways of the Archbishop via the blog will continue until the Archbishop is “gone.”

      However, where you and/or the 7 July commenter read the words “UNTIL YOU HAVE GONE” and “WHEN YOU HAVE GONE” (your emphases) and infer death, I had inferred that the Archbishop might be FORCED to retire to a life of prayer, which is not uncommon. Hence, the Archbishop will be “gone” — not dead, just GONE.

      As I stated previously — as critical as the comments have been about the Archbishop and/or his actions, one cannot find an unambiguous, clear-cut statement wishing the Archbishop ill-health and/or death in JungleWatch. Nor can it be said that, per the 7 July comment, that “ALL the post [sic] … wish the Archbishop to fall ill and die.” That is an indisputable exaggeration, the operative word being "ALL."

      Clearly we will not be able to agree that no EXPLICIT wish for ill-health or death has been made on JungleWatch. It is possible to read all kinds of interpretations into the different comments and find threats just as you did, if one is so inclined.

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    3. Dear Mary Lou,

      The Anonymous Poster of July 7th did not referenced any comment as to the Archbishop's resignation, so why would you assume that he/she has to referenced a comment referring to the Archbishop's ill health and/or death? You can infer that the comment meant that the Archbishop might be "forced" to retire, but no where in that June comment is the word "forced" even found or implied. His last two sentences sounds very ominous and threatening.

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    4. Dear Diana —

      Your 15 July 9:25 AM response “The Anonymous Poster of July 7th did not referenced [sic] any comment as to the Archbishop's resignation, so why would you assume that he/she has to referenced [sic] a comment referring to the Archbishop's ill health and/or death?” implies that you have lost track of this thread.

      I submitted a comment on 14 July at 9:27 PM expressing my concern of the accusation via an Anonymous comment on 7 July at 10:46 PM in which my name, among others, was mentioned and which claimed that “ALL OF THE POST ON JUNGLE WATCH … WISH THE ARCHBISHOP TO FALL ILL AND DIE OR STEP DOWN OF HIS DUTIES.” I took strong exception to that accusation and requested proof of a statement wishing the Archbishop ill health and/or death.

      Your response at 11:52 PM suggested that the person who made the 7 July comment “… may have interpreted the … comment published in June 26, 2014 at 11:37 a.m. in Junglewatch as meaning that the poster in the jungle wanted the Archbishop to get sick and die …” and then YOU — not 7 July at 10:46 PM — provided the comment as YOUR proof that the JungleWatch commenter wanted the Archbishop dead by focusing on the commenter’s use of the word “gone,” which you interpreted as “dead.”

      My 1:07 AM response (which was actually posted at 12:07 AM from my location) indicated that I did not consider the comment you offered as evidence as a “definitive statement wishing ill health and/or death” — in reference to the original comment of 7 July at 10:46 PM which prompted me to write. I pointed out that you had inferred that the JungleWatch comment about the Archbishop being “gone” must be about the Archbishop’s death. On the other hand, I had inferred the possibility that the Archbishop would be made to retire to a life of prayer and then be “gone” — possibly to a monastery — but not dead, per your interpretation.

      So you see, Diana, the Anonymous person who commented on 7 July 2014 at 10:46 PM DID, in fact, state: ““ALL OF THE POST ON JUNGLE WATCH … WISH THE ARCHBISHOP TO FALL ILL AND DIE OR STEP DOWN OF HIS DUTIES.” It was YOU who offered the JungleWatch comment of 26 June 2014 at 11:37 AM as evidence and it was YOU who assumed that comment was proof that those who dare to criticize the Archbishop “… wish the Archbishop to FALL ILL AND DIE …”

      As I stated at the end of my previous comment of 1:07 AM: “Clearly we will not be able to agree that no EXPLICIT wish for ill-health or death has been made on JungleWatch. It is possible to read all kinds of interpretations into the different comments and find threats just as you did, if one is so inclined.” You proved my point with your response of 15 July 2014 at 9:25 AM. You are inclined to find a threat; therefore you regard the last two sentences of the JungleWatch post as “ominous and threatening.”

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    5. Dear Mary Lou,

      You did not just issue a comment. You issued a challenge to me and/or the Anonymous poster of July 7th. According to your statement (Capitalization is my emphasis):

      "I challenge YOU AND/OR THE ANONYMOUS WRITER to provide proof to the contrary — in a post PRIOR to the 7 July comment (since it will be simple for someone to post a comment reflecting that claim now that I’ve brought it up) — and publish it here."

      Your challenge was met and you lost. The fact that it was I who responded and not the Anonymous Poster of July 7th is irrelevant because the challenge was made to both of us. Now, you are simply "backtracking" and inclined to find an excuse in your favor.

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    6. Mary Lou debate has no bearing and shut down. Nice view

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  13. Diana

    What makes half truths whole is falsehood. It is impossible for people who speak and believe in half truths to accept that they do not know the whole truth. Courage

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  14. Janet B and Maria I believe one person. These particular individual wishes for the Archbishop to step down. I ask myself, really? Who are you to say that? Lutherans are classier.

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