AnonymousJuly 9, 2017 at 2:42 PM
Sorry for not sticking to OP, but why did CoAB Byrnes appointment Deacon Steve as delegate to NCW who is a CCOG member and one who has spoken out publicly against AB Apuron?
"God is one" pointed out under the same thread that Tim Rohr had made an appointment to see Archbishop Brynes:
God is oneJuly 7, 2017 at 10:14 PM
God is oneJuly 7, 2017 at 10:14 PM
No he's not because a few weeks ago he had a meeting with him so stop your lies and tell Timmy to stay out of the churches business
One then has to wonder whether Archbishop Brynes actually listened to both sides of the story. Deacon Steve Martinez was a member of CCOG and has spoken out against Archbishop Apuron.
One then has to wonder whether Archbishop Brynes actually listened to both sides of the story. Deacon Steve Martinez was a member of CCOG and has spoken out against Archbishop Apuron.
Furthermore, Deacon Steve has harbored some grudge against the NCW even after he was ordained a deacon by Archbishop Apuron. Deacon Steve wrote the following in the jungle on September 9, 2014. According to Deacon Steve Martinez:
Deacon Steve MartinezSeptember 9, 2014 at 11:56 PM
Anonymous September 9, 2014 at 10:19 PM perpetuates a lie when he says: "Tim, nobody is forced to join the NCW." This is just plain not true. No matter how many times we hear this, it still doesn't make it true.
As was pointed out by myself and several other men in our meeting with the Nuncio back in July, we were forced to join the NCW by the Archbishop and Fr Adrian. We had been studying for 3.5 years and were told 5 months before our scheduled ordination that unless we joined a community and walked we would not be ordained. Our primary formator, Fr Tony Perez, was furious when he found out that this was being forced upon us. He met with the Archbishop, but the Archbishop refused to rescind the order. \
So, Anon 10:19 please stop parroting what you have been told when you do not know the facts. Some people have heard this so often they begin to think it is true, but the reality is that people have been forced to join. Also ask the three priests who wanted to be incardinated to our Archdiocese but were told they had to join the NCW or find a new home/new bishop.
Deacon Steve MartinezBelow is a screen shot of that comment above:
If Archbishop Brynes had gotten the other side of the story, he would have learned that there was a misunderstanding or misconception between Deacon Steve and the Archbishop. Under that same thread, Deacon Steven admitted that Father Adrian, Monsignor David, and Archbishop Apuron apologized to Deacon Steve for this misunderstanding between them. And this was Deacon Steve's response:
Yes, it is true that Fr Adrian, Msgr David, and the Archbishop all apologized for the "misunderstanding at the time". This is not an apology that I can accept since they have denied the fact that we were forced to join. They have apologized for the wrong act, so how can I accept that apology?Does this sound like the right person to be the delegate of the NCW? Not only did he hold a grudge against Archbishop Apuron and the NCW, but surprisingly, he cannot forgive. What was it that Jesus said to the Apostle Peter when he asked Christ how many times he should forgive a person? And here we have a deacon who openly admitted that he can not accept the apology simply because it was not to his liking.
NOW THIS IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY:
About fifteen years ago, Archbishop Apuron suggested/mandated/recommended (it depends to which person you speak) the deacon class of 2003 to go and listen to the catechesis of the Neocatechumenal way. Some deacons claim that Father Adrian ‘threatened’ them that Archbishop will not ordain them deacons if they do not follow this directive.
These catechesis are a fifteen talks-and-celebrations package, that may give way to the birth of a small Neocatechumenal community in a parish. At the end everyone is asked whether he wants to continue or not.
All of them, I believe, went to listen to the initial catechesis. Some opted to continue and are still in the Way. Others selected to continue but desisted after some months or years. Others decided it was not their soup and after the initial convivence, never bothered to stay. All these thirteen men were ordained deacons.
These are the simple facts.
THE AFTERMATH
Some of these deacons are very grateful that the Archbishop insisted that they go and listen to the catechesis. I know, to give one example, that Deacon Ed Borja found the Neocatechumenal community a tremendous help in his battle against the terminal sickness that eventually ended his life.
Other deacons never forgave the Archbishop for this unspeakable sin. ‘What?! Forcing us to go and listen to a catechesis!! Making this a condition for diaconal ordination. Unheard of. Canonically unjust. Archbishop is overstepping his authority… ‘
And they are still harping on this after MMMMAAAANNNNYYYY long years!! When Archbishop Krebs came, apparently they strongly brought it to his attention. Again.
Why did the Archbishop do this? I do not know. I am not the Archbishop. I know however that he loves his people and he knows that the Neocatechumenal Way can help certain people who are suffering. So I guess he saw in the Neocatechumenal Way a good pastoral tool to help the people discover their faith in a deeper way. He also saw this Way as s good instrument to help former Catholics come back to the Church. This Way was/is producing results. And so Archbishop thought that it is good for these deacons in formation to taste this pastoral instrument.
He also believed that it could help them in their personal life. A deacon (or a priest) is a normal man who needs conversion, who needs a place that can help him face his issues under the light of the Word of God. Obviously the Neocatechumenal Way is not the only place where one can grow in faith, but it is also one valid place. Confirmed by the magisterium of the Church with a good tracking record of many years here in Guam.
‘He had no right to impose it or make it a condition for diaconal ordination’, one may argue. I am not a canonist and so I cannot really answer this objection. However the facts are that he ordained both those who went and continued in the Neo-catechumenal Way and those who did not continue.
One needs to ask oneself whether the archbishop can and should determine certain aspects of the spiritual, academic and personal formation of the candidates, like their willingness to respect and obey the authority of the Church. Ordination is not a right or a privilege.
I believe this was more a pastoral decision than anything else. A friend priest of mine always tells me that the Church is a mother and that the administration of justice in the Church has no other purpose than the salus animarum, the salvation of souls, as laid down in the last canon, 1752, of the Code of Canon Law. Perhaps this is what motivated Archbishop.
What I fail to understand is why some deacons are still harping on this after so many years. Can’t they forget and let go? Let us say, for the sake of the argument, he made a mistake, can’t they excuse him? Do the Gospel values like forgiveness and lenience have any worth today?
So, what happened to Father Danny?
ReplyDeletePut it this way, Deacon Steve's job as delegate is to review the catechetical directory, which has already been approved by Rome, with AB Byrnes. If Deacon Steve says that the directory is wrong, then he and AB Byrnes can then tell the Vatican that they were wrong in approving it. They can take their case to the Vatican and tell the Holy See they were wrong. 😄😄😄😄
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:09 pm,
DeleteYou bring up an interesting point. If Deacon Steve says the directory contains errors, then he ends up looking like a fool because the diectory was already approved by Rome. On the other hand, if he says it contains no errors, then he will end up being criticized and probably even persecuted by the jungle.
Yep. Exactly. Lol!!!!!
DeleteHmmmm........maybe Deacon Steve is the right man for the job after all. 😄
DeleteDiana, I think Anon. 5:38 pm is right. After Deacon Steve and Byrnes finish reviewing the catechetical directory, all they need to do is choose which one they want to be. Do they want to be persecuted by the jungle or look like they know better than the Vatican.
DeleteThe point is that the original content of the directories is only valid with the inserted context that prevents heretical interpretation. These insertions are the result of hard work in several Vatican dicasteries. As the new, revised directories override the old ones, the old texts are valid no more.
DeleteIt has been pointed out that there are teachings in the directories that, if not presented in proper context, may easily give rise to heresy. It is not the duty of the dicasteries only but also of local bishops to ensure that heretical interpretations of the old edition are avoided. That is why the new edition of the dierctories with thousands and thousands insertions should be taught.
Father Danny is a NEO sympathtizer.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:15 pm,
DeleteFather Danny is neutral. He is not a member of the Way nor the jungle, To you, anyone who is not part of the jungle or the Way is "neo sympathizer. I would not be surprised if Father Danny stepped down if he suddenly realized that regardless of what he says, he will end up losing. As Anonymous 5:09 pointed out, if Deacon Steve says that the directory contains errors, he is going to end up looking foolish because the directory already met the approval of Rome. On the other hand, the junglefolks is not going to be happy if he says that it contains no errors.
Hello. Peace be with your spirits!
ReplyDeleteI would just like to say, I have been in the Neocatechumenal way, on Guam, for sometime. I'm really a nobody but I just wanted encourage and remind what the catechists say, if we are affected by events in our lives and we immediately retaliate to these events, then we are essentially retaliating against God's plan.
When we find ourselves at this point (i.e. retaliating, complaining, rationalizing, doubting, etc.) we can ask the Holy Spirit to help us. To help us accept our situations and pray we can overcome the temptations of the devil to destroy our spirit. Because all it takes is a destroyed spirit to stop the evangelization of God's love to those who especially need it and do not know how to get themselves out of the pit of death. You remember all the "deaths" we have experienced, addiction to drugs, adultery (both of heart and flesh), pornography, abortion, masturbation, attempted suicide, murder, judgements, etc. All these and yet God loves so much He pulls us out of these - constantly and repeatedly forgiving us.
The mother church has been patient with us through the gestation process and God has been merciful to many of us - dealing with our reactions to injustice, hatred to Him, our sins, our abandonment of our faith, most especially our pride. God deals with our selfishness but He always proceeds us - He knew us before we were born. His plan is always majestic and flawless - all these and many more are the mysteries of salvation.
Let us give God a chance to do His plan. Let us help each other to have mercy on others as God has had mercy with us. We are no different - we all should be in prison for the things we have done. Yet some of us were "clumsy" and got caught - then condemned to prison.
Courage brothers! I too need courage - it isn't easy to deal with the catechesis of the world. Let's pray for each other.
Dear Anonymous at 8:22 pm,
DeleteYou are correct. Thank you for correcting me. There is a reason why things happen as they do. Yes, we should allow God to work his plan. Deacon Steven was chosen to help Archbishop Byrnes to review the catechetical directory.
I don't see Diana making a judgment against the Deacon at all. In my perspective, I see her questioning the deacon's qualification. There is nothing wrong with questioning whether the person is qualified for the position or not. Seeing that this is a position that involves the NCW, I think anyone in their right frame of mind would question the deacon's appointment.
DeleteOn the other hand, Byrnes was a direct judgment against Apuron. He was not questioning Apuron's leadership the way Diana had done with Deacon Steve. Byrnes already CONCLUDED that Apuron's qualification would be a disaster and stated clearly that he should not return. End of discussion.
Diana was different. After presenting the statements made by Deacon Steve, She posed the question to her readers, "Does this sound like the right person to be the delegate of the NCW?" Diana was humble enough to admit that the answer to her own question is a no. But because she asked the question to her readers, she was initiating her readers to discuss the qualification of the Deacon to the position as delegate to the NCW. By asking her readers that question, she was opening up a discussion to determine the deacon's qualification. Unlike Byrnes, Diana didn't end the discussion. And unlike Byrnes, Diana did not say anything negative about Deacon Steve. As a result of her questioning and the comments from her readers, Diana has come to accept the deacon's position as delegate despite that she felt he wasn't qualified to begin with.
Qualification is not judgment. When you don't have qualifications then you are unfit. Period. Also, vice versa, if you are unfit it is because of lack of qualification. This is factual, there is no judgment at all.
DeleteJudgment is okay when it fits God's plan. John the Baptist criticized Herod's lack of moral. It was a judgment by God announced by the Baptist. The same way it was the plan of God to jail John because of his judgment and while he was in the prison of Herod, Jesus could come to fore. Is was the plan of his Father for the world.
AB Apron had the qualifications. He is a Bishop and has been the Archbishop of Agana for 30 years. You cannot say that he was a "disaster" when the controversy only arose four years ago. Before that, Apuron rightly fought against abortion, same sex marriage, and casino gambling. He was also the first Bishop to erect two seminaries in Guam.
DeleteRohr misled the people into thinking that Apuron was a lousy Bishop for 30 years. Yet, Rohr said some good things about Apuron a long time ago. It is only now that he is saying that he has been a lousy bishop for 30 years.
It's the same with SNAP. At the beginning of the controversy, Rohr was supporting SNAP. It's only NOW that he withdrew that support.
There's a difference between right judgment and wrong judgment.
DeleteRight judgement includes:
1. Judgment that marks those who cause offenses.
2. Judgment that settles arguments between brethens.
3. Judgment in order to rebuke.
Wrong judgments include:
1. Judgment that is hypocritical.
2. Judgment that is prejudiced.
3. Judgment that is unjust and unmerciful.
4. Judgment that is premature.
5. Judgment that is unscriptural
http://www.simplybible.com/f082.htm
Anonymous @ 10:00 AM: Could you not find a CATHOLIC source as a basis for your comment on right judgment and wrong judgment? I went to simplybible.com and found the Bible in that website is missing the Books of Maccabees (among others).
DeleteWhat was wrong with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?Just read Paragraphs 1786-1794 for guidance from the Catholic Church about choosing in accordance with a well-formed conscience AND how to avoid erroneous judgment.
Dear Concerned Catholic,
DeleteAccording to the following CATHOLIC website:
"A. 2. There are two types of judgments.
First of all, there is the correcting of a person for the good of that person or for the good of the Church, especially in matters of morality. Those who judge others for the good of that person or for the good of the Church, they are on the right track.
Secondly, there is the type of person who has an ongoing inclination of criticizing another person's conduct, such being motivated by pride, a sense of being better than others. Such a person judges anyone and everyone for any and all reasons. They do not like the way you dress, the way you decorate your house, the car you drive, the friends you socialize with, etc... These are the ones that should be told to stop being judgmental, "WITH JUST CAUSE.""
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu223.htm
The only difference between the Catholic and Christian website is that the Christian one spelled it out much more clearly. I believe that even a Catholic can easily see that a judgment that is hypocritical, prejudiced, unjust and unmerciful, premature, and unscriptural are all WRONG judgment.
"Those who judge others for the good of that person or for the good of the Church"
DeleteIt is pretty clear that the vast bulk of criticisms and judgements about the NCW are in line with this statement. Well-formed Catholic critics of the NCW do not hate them or wish to destroy them - but rather are concerned for the good of the people involved and for the good of the Church.
Thank you for posting this.
Diana, you threw out my comment about the sins of the NCW. Why? "We have experienced addiction to drugs, adultery (both of heart and flesh), pornography, abortion, masturbation, attempted suicide, murder, judgements, etc."
DeleteIt was anon at 8:22 pm who listed a whole lot of sins and vices you face at the NCW that regular faithful Catholics would never have to face. Why don't you talk about these sins and vices? How come that you are experiencing all these things in the NCW?
Dear Anonymous at 3:54 pm,
DeletePlease read the entire sentence. It says "especially in matters of morality. The criticisms against the NCW never had anything to do with morality. It was out of hate, prejudice, and pride.
Dear Anonymous at 6:26 pm,
DeleteI do not know about you, but there are many Catholics who are not walking in the Way facing the same problems and vices as those walking in the Way. Please stop living in a fantasy world and face reality.
Diana, your "reality" is a pagan reality. Pagan people face those sins and vices. We Catholics don't. This is a moral issue running very deep in our soul and faith life. When we misstep, we go to the confessional. We don't dwell in those sins and vices but repent and overcome. You, however, tell people who dwell in these sins and vices that they are okay. You at the NCW tell them that we are all sinners, so they don't need to repent.
DeleteThis is moral relativism that you infuse as "Catholic" teaching. But is it Catholic? If you don't go to confession at least once a year then you are no Catholic. If you don't repent your sin at the confessional, then you commit sacrilege and your absolution is invalid. Then you are even less Catholic. Then you are a sinner. This is how it works in our Catholic faith. How does it work at your NCW?
Dear 6:26pm,
DeleteI am 8:22pm. There are over a million brothers around the world who are in this charism of the Neocatechumenal Way, it's the very thought that many have discovered the reality of their situation and been healing, witnessed miracles, or are finding some kind consolation. There is so much hope. This speaks tremendous volumes of the reality of life today - the reality that sin weighs ALL of us down. There is a point where you can no longer entertain the sin. It destroys the spirit in a person. It is poison. We cannot do it on our own, so we turn to the Mother Church, the hospital, to get help from the doctors, who are the priests (who God gave the tools to forgive and heal), where God is the surgeon, who does the possible for the impossible.
Regarding your comment: "It was anon at 8:22 pm who listed a whole lot of sins and vices you face at the NCW that regular faithful Catholics would never have to face"
My response: Maybe somehow you have been fortunate to not experience or see the suffering of the world or those around you but there are people who live a less perfect world - there are people who need help everywhere. Just find a social worker or a case worker with Public health - ask about some of the stories and horror they have to witness everytime. Try asking a fireman, any fireman on Guam, what they witness in a daily or weekly basis. How about police officers? We are not very far from being able to hear the stories of suffering and death.
Better yet, ask any priest about some stories of what people suffer (all these people have to uphold a level of confidentiality so they may be able to generalize it or omit names - it is possible to hear these stories). You have to ask how does it start? Where does it begin? There is a cause and an effect. A lot of the sins we as humans carry affect others and ourselves. Listen, just having a little compassion is good, compassion for ALL people, because ALL of us (that means you and I) are children of God.
With your fortune, I wish you can share how you are able to avoid sin? If you have the antidote you can be a tremendous help to many. Share you fortune so many can thank God for you. Those are the best graces! From the act of sharing (which is the act of charity).
May God give you the courage to be a holy sign to others - that they can experience the fortune and love, a gift from God above.
Dear anon at 8:22 pm, I do not care how many millions of people you fooled to join your movement. There is a lot of suffering in the world, true. Sins and vices cause suffering. It is the way of the pagans. We Catholic are no pagans, we have been baptized by the baptism of Jesus.
DeleteThere is a difference between Catholic and pagan. We Catholics are not all holy people or saints. We are also plain Catholics who follow our faith. We don't dwell in sins and vices, because Jesus gave us His life to walk away and overcome sin.
What you call sinner is the pagan, who cannot get out of their sins and vices. Only homosexual people talk about masturbation because that is a sin. Even to talk about it as you do in the NCW.
If I overstep the 10 commandments, I go to the confessional. It is between me and God, witnessed by a priest, the servant of Jesus. You have no business with that, my friend, or your NCW or whatever. We had learned here on Guam, that your NCW tells its followers that moral turpitude or sin are okay, because everyone sins. You tell them that there is no difference between faithful Catholic and pagan. You tell them sin is normal. Then you have to face it.
We Catholics do not believe so. Sin is deviance, not normal. Confession is a private act between you and God witnessed by a priest. That is all. You have to sincerely repent otherwise you are guilty of sacrilege. This will keep you on the side of Jesus and keep you away from the pagans.
There is no God apart from Jesus.
Aren't you indirectly making a judgment against Deacon Martinez? It's been 14 years and 3 years since Archbishop krebbs first came to Guam. Furthermore, 7 months since Archbishop Byrnes has been in charge.
ReplyDeleteAren't you making a judgment of seeing Deacon Martinez as being unfit to be a deacon based on situational facts? While you don't say it directly like Archbishop Byrnes, you are definitely alluding to it here.
"One needs to ask oneself whether the archbishop can and should determine certain aspects of the spiritual, academic and personal formation of the candidates, like their willingness to respect and obey the authority of the Church. Ordination is not a right or a privilege."
Dear Anonymous at 9:56 pm,
DeleteMy post is indeed a judgment. I judged that Deacon Steve was unfit to be a delegate due to his grudge against the Archbishop and the Way. As I said, we all make judgments, including myself. I apologize for being judgmental. And I thank Anonymous 8:22 for correcting me. He/She also reminded me that God allows things to happen for a reason.
Catholic orthodoxy is stronger than Vatican. When a list of problems from the NCW directory will be sent to Rome, a debate on orthodoxy will be enlivened. Vatican will toughen its stance against unorthodox teaching. Deacon Steve's job may initiate an internal pro-orthodox revolt in Rome throwing out heresies and protecting the 2000 years of deposited teaching of the Catholic Church.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:25 am,
DeleteYou cannot separate Catholic orthodoxy and the Church. It was the Church that determine Catholic Orthodoxy. You are expecting one man (Deacon Steve) to initiate a revolt despite the fact that it was a group of men who approved the Catechetical Directory with the help of the Holy Spirit. This is what the Protestants did. Martin Luther (one man) went against the Church, making up his own church doctrines.
Diana, you misunderstand orthodoxy. It is about protecting the deposit of faith. When you go unorthodox, you despise this deposit and, frankly, despise the church's history of 2000 years.
DeleteYes, Vatican can go against orthodoxy as it has done time and again in the past, eminently at Vatican 2. It is not to say that Vatican 2 as a whole was unorthodox, but to say that unorthodoxy made advances at Vatican 2. It is time to correct that. The sheep and the goat has to be separated.
Dear Anonymous at 8:59 am,
DeleteIt is the Church who protects the deposit of faith, not one man. The Church has protected the deposit of faith for over 2000 years, and they have never failed despite how many corrupted priests, cardinal, or popes governed the Church.
In the 1800s, Napoleon told the Secretary of State, Ercole Cardinal Consalvi, that he would “crush” the Roman Catholic Church. In response, the cardinal shook his head and sighed. He said to Napoleon, ""If in 1,800 years we clergy have failed to destroy the Church, do you really think that you'll be able to do it?"
Do you not believe in Christ's words when he said that He is the Head of the Church and the gates of Hell will never prevail against His Church???? Oh ye of little faith.
Anonymous at 9:56 PM: I'm not sure about the point of your claim that it's been "14 years and 3 years since Archbishop krebbs first came to Guam." Are you saying he came to Guam before he was the Apostolic Nuncio? If so, I'm not sure what significance that holds since Archbishop Krebs has only been the Apostolic Nuncio for Guam since 2013.
DeleteArchbishop Krebs was here on "official business" in July 2014 when he met with the clergy and then again in January 2015 as a member of the Apostolic Visitors to investigate ongoing problems in the archdiocese.
It has been called into attention several times that Archbishop Michael talked against the return of Apuron as bishop of record and NOT against the person. Of course, you won't acknowledge this, because twisting and turning the facts is always more convenient than addressing them face on.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:29 pm,
DeleteHis "return" is the person of the Archbishop. If Archbishop Byrnes had said "the return of the old ways of doing things would be a disaster" then he is not referring to Archbishop Apuron. But that is not what he said. He said, "the return of Archbishop Apuron would be a disaster...."
Diana, the "return" of Apuron has nothing to do with the character or quality of Apuron. Nobody judged the character or quality of Apuron. However, his return to full power would have consequences. Byrnes said the consequence would be a relapse that is potentially catastrophic.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:20 pm,
DeleteThe castastrophe has already happened, and it had nothing to do with Archbishop Apuron. We are facing more than 80 lawsuits that has surpassed the assets of the church. And as long as this law goes unchallenged, the Catholics of Guam can never rebuild their church. Why? Because the priests who are alive today will eventually be accused of sex abuse after they die. This law has opened the door for anyone to scam the church. And you cannot tell who are the real victims and who are the scammers because there is no investigation. The church will settle out of court.
A deacon does not have the competent formation to review the catechetical directories. Cardinal ratzinger himself and theological experts from the congregation of the faith approved them. These are people who dedicate their lives to matters concerning the faith. Are you telling me that deacon Martinez who has studied just a few years and hardly spends all his time in prayer and study is equal to ratzinger and an ad hoc commission of experts? The hubris this demonstrates would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:12 pm,
DeleteI agree. I do not know where Archbishop Byrnes is going with this. He was the one who appointed Deacon Steve.
Yea, the Deacon doesn't have the qualification to review the catechetical directories, but him and Byrnes can go ahead and review it. They already look silly reviewing it. They might as well review the catechism of the Catholic Church while they're at it.
DeleteThe problem is that the local NCW does NOT follow the rewritten directory that was approved by Rome. Local NCW teaches the exact same old stuff that has been for the last 20 years when NCW set foot on Guam. This will be detected and corrected.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:20 am,
DeleteI disagree. We have been following the Directory that was approved and passed by Rome in 2012. The problem is that the jungle criticized the approved directory.
Diana, why do you want to pre-empt the result of the review? Of course, an NCW source would state they are following. But what are the real facts? Is NCW truly following or just pretends to follow it?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:46 am,
DeleteI started walking in the Way before 2008. The Statutes and the Directory were approved after 2008. Therefore, I would noticed any changes in the celebrations and catechesis before and after. So, yes, we are following the directory approved by Rome.
A simple question please Diana - and please answer this honestly. Have you read all thirteen volumes of the directory which was approved for publication?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:50 am,
DeleteNo. Only the catechists have the books. I am not a catechist. The change before and after 2008, however, is an indication that we are following the approved books. The fact that our catechesis are done publicly also shows that we are not hiding anything.
The jungle claims that the NCW is not following the approved directory simply because the directory is given only to the catechists. The real question should be asked is why didn't the jungle claim that the public catechesis are wrong? After all, the catechesis are made public. Therefore, the directory is only being used as a distraction so people will not see the truth.
DeleteSatan focused Eve's attention on the fact that God did not allow them to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The devil used that as a distraction to the truth.....that God gave them more fruits in the garden to eat.
In the same way, the jungle used the directory as a distraction to the truth......that the public catechesis conforms to Catholic teaching.
No, Diana, the reasoning goes the other way around. The approved directory is used as a distraction from the fact that the old directory is taught in NCW circles without the corrections that Rome had to insert with many years of hard work.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:07 pm,
DeleteAnd your evidence of this is.........?
Diana,
DeleteI have a strong feeling that people think that the Directory is somewhat of daily Text book that is always used. If we could just suggest that they actually take the time to read the STATUTES so they may understand the itinerary. Maybe I could give a general timeline of how things progress.
1. With the permission of the Bishop and respective Pastors a group of catechist's enter the parish jurisdiction and offer a series of catechetical sessions. "Invitations/Announcements" are made/given prior to starting. Both those already attending Sunday Masses already and those at homes are invited.
2. Catechesis starts, twice a week for a couple weeks.
3. The end of the catechesis is marked with a weekend retreat/convivence where those who attended the weekly sessions are invited.
4. On the last day of this convivence/retreat, those attending are asked if they would like to continue by being part of a community. If yes, then those who wish now make a new community. Those who don't want to are reminded that at anytime they would like to come and listen again, they are welcomed to.
5. The newly formed community is then invited to have a weekly celebration of the Word (each week a new theme) and if a priest is available, they now will celebrate a Mass every Saturday as a small community.
6. The Catechist group that leads them is now tasked to periodically visit with them to see how things may be going and whether the Celebration of Word,Eucharist and the Community life is helping them as an individual.
7. Since the itinerary follows the general steps of the RCIA then the catechist's periodically invite the community to live and experience these steps at least every two years.s
The Directory outlines these so called steps of the Way. Since one must enter into the steps with an Open mind, the Directory is not made available.
With this said, one must realize that one of the most controversial aspects of the way, the steps, which have the approval of Rome via the approval of the said directory.
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Dear Jokers, it is not about anyone's perception of what your directory is. It is about WHAT is in the directory. You cannot explain away the serious lack of transparency that allows heresy to penetrate the foundation on charism and sophism.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:26 am,
DeleteBefore you judge the NCW of heresy, I think you should first look at the non-NCW members in your ranks such as the anonymous poster who believes that only pagans face sins and not Catholics.
Anon@726am
DeleteThere you go again with the accusation of HERESY. What evidence do you have of this? Is it from word of mouth? Someone told you that we are taught heresy?
You have no evidence!
You are hear that we do this and that, say this and that but that is all, right?
All we do as a community is meet on Wednesdays for a WORD, come back on Saturday for Eucharist, wake up Sunday morning a do LAUDS/MORNING PRAYER with our family and then one Sunday a month meet as a COMMUNITY to share our experiences of the month. We have Reconciliation services atleast 3-4 times a year. On top of this, many of us volunteer our time and resources for the church, anonymously. We frequent the Masses of the parish. We celebrate the Feasts and Solemnities festively. This is all! and yet you call us heretics. This is way more than the average Catholic but it is fine because this is what helps us. No one is forced to do these things. We are constantly reminded that the doors are wide open to leave and some of us do. It is true that there are many people who have walked in a community for years and then have stopped but Im pretty sure you wont find them walking in the protests or publicly talking trash of the NCW. They wont because there is nothing to say.
Lastly, you said its not about anyones perception of what the directory is. It is about what is in it. Well, heres the truth, again, the Directory contains the prayers and non-liturgical celebrations of the NCW as APPROVED by Rome. All other celebrations are governed by the alreaady established rubrics of the Catholic Church contained in the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary with permission to move the Exchange of Peace right before the offertory and for the distribution of both species with the communicant remaining in their place. Remember now, the local Bishop has the Authority to change as he pleases. He has already enforced his authority by requiring us to use a consecrated altar in the church or approved chapel and we have been obedient. He also asked us not to conduct the Great Mission/Evangelization in the public places(done during Easter time every year) and we have been obedient.
Deacon Steve has been appointed to a position to review the practices of the NCW. He will do it and find that there is nothing to report on. He will be dumbfounded when he realizes that all the misconceptions that he and many have, have really been big misconceptions.
Im pretty sure we'll accept the apology and surely there wont be any need for a written one as one cleric has asked in the past.
one last note on the subject of money because the root of this problem has always been about money. The NCW is seen as a threat because you think that we are hoarding meeelions and meeeeelions of dollars, talks about the value of the Seminary Property, the cost of running the seminary, the "big hotel stays" for our retreats, the cost of travel for seminarians and priests, the cost of mission families. All of these are the real issues. And every now and then some one throws out the Heresy card but really the problem is with the money. Well, your all wrong! You cannot mismanage when there is nothing to manage in the first place. Deacon Steve will find this out soon.
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Diana,
DeleteHeres a few comments from the jungle about Parishioners from Santa Rita parish.
Remember now, Santa Rita has a very very small NCW community, so these comments more importantly the last one are an attack on the majority who are not NCW.
They are constantly accusing Father Fabio of takingg the money that was raised for the new Parish Center. All they have to do is call one of the SR Finance Council members and they will find that the money is safe in their accounts.
Santa Rita also has a high Sunday Collection duly based on their average household income. Although they are a rather small Parish, their Sunday Collections can be compared to that of a larger parish.
I hope that the Parishioners of SR disagree with what Ror allows to be said about them.
AnonymousJuly 11, 2017 at 4:43 AM
WoW! If this is true, he should be run out of the parish! Very un-Christ-like. He is there to preach the Truth of the Gospel and leave the defense of Apuron to Apuron. If he wants to defend him publicly do it outside the sacred Mass.
TimJuly 11, 2017 at 6:36 AM
Sadly, the laity in Santa Rita seem to be just fine with it.
AnonymousJuly 11, 2017 at 9:54 AM
Santa Rita laity are the type of clericalist idiots who paid Apuron a fortune to destroy the archdiocese for 30 years. Keep quiet spies in their midst and don't give a cent to ignoramus Neocat parishes like that one.
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Dear Jokers, thank you for confirming everything I wrote. You give us a daily schedule and time table that nobody has asked for. You talk about everything but what is in the directories. Your evasion from talking honestly about the content that you teach in the NCW gives you away.
DeleteI am in the convenient position that penetration of heretic ideas into NCW's daily mantra is well evidenced. A separate blog has listed innumerable instances that you cannot just explain away as you do. It is the Thoughtful Catholic blog maintained by Chuck White.
He demonstrates step by step how your unorthodox interpretation of the Bible in enforced on your followers. He gives instances of twisted theology, shifting the meaning of words and concepts in a manner that disguises itself being Catholic while it deviates from our basic beliefs.
We also have tape recordings of dubious fusions of Catholic teaching with other religions. NCW theology is suspect of Gnostic influences, de-emphasizing the sacraments and the divinity of Jesus. You teach that Jesus was tempted my Mary Magdalene. You walk up and down in the church with Jesus in your palm. You re-interpret transubstantiation saying that the resurrection is the community. You claim to be on a path of becoming Christ. This is all heresy of the worst kind.
Dear Anonymous at 3:42 pm,
DeleteThe purpose of Chuck white's blog is only to discredit the NCW. He twists things around. See the weblink below as an example.
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/05/a-thoughtless-catholic.html
Dear Diana, you have never addressed in depth any criticism expressed by Chuck toward the NCW. One has the impression of an unequal intellectual balance here, where nobody from NCW is able to match the well prepared expositions at Chuck's blog.
DeleteIf you read any entry at Thoughtful Catholic, you'll see that some particular topic is addressed in much detail. It is a theological review of some aspect of NCW ideology that is criticized. When you don't respond to this criticism you create the impression that you can't. Without being able to rebut what is exposed, you have to admit that the criticism has some validity.
It is not a blog that can discredit the NCW, it is the inability to stand for your ideology and practices. When you are unable to defend your teaching that would discredit what you preach.
Dear Anon342pm,
DeleteLet me remind you. I gave you the daily routine because that basically is how the Statutes and the Directory come alive. I also told you that the Directory contains the Prayers and Non-Liturgical Celebrations of the NCW. To be even more clear to you, the itinerary closely resembles the RCIA, which is a program of initiation that progresses step by step, so does the Way. The Directory outlines each step. Because we who are walking desire to enter into each step openly, we do not care to pursue reviewing the said Directory. The Directory is not a secret document in the sense that there is something wrong that the NCW is hiding. Its more of a matter of waiting to taste it with a fresh palate.
Call me a liar but all the heresy that you posted is from a blog whos Author is out to nit pick to find flaws that dont exist. I AM WALKING in the NCW and I do not believe those statements and have never been taught that by my catechists.
Let me also prove to you how those blogs contain half truths that for the most part, if you were to find out the other half, it would compromise the integrity of the Author.
Recently on junglewatch. Mr Ror authored an entry entitles "defrck bushu" a RMS/NCW priest. In one of the comments he shares and entices the readers to an incident that supposedly accuses Fr. Edwin Bushu of shoving a female parishioner. Ror allows a good number of commenters to post their views on the case. Mostly bad comments.
What Ror doesnt do or reveal is that the incident was reported to the Chancery office and that an investigation was done and Father Edwin was cleared of any wrongdoing. What Ror doesnt share is that peace and reconciliation has been made between Father Edwin and Rachel. The incident didnt have to get to the chancery but it was Rachels sister Marjorie(a CCOG member) who over-exaggerated the incident and reported it to the chancery. Fr. Jeff San Nicolas was also involved in the investigation and sadly has not come out to publicly clear the record.
I may have gone over but this is all to show you the kind of blogs that you think have reliable information.
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Dear Anonymous at 10:51 pm,
DeleteI have debunk Mr. White in my blog, which you can find in the following weblinks:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/05/a-thoughtless-catholic.html
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/08/chuck-whites-flawed-measurement-of-cults.html
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/04/errors-of-thoughtful-catholic.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-true-abraham-taught-by-catholic.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-jewish-passover.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-thoughtful-catholic.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/08/a-comparison.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/08/word-of-god.html
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-mustard-seed.html
As you can see, I have debunked Mr. White's so-called theology. He was already proved wrong 9 times. After that, one does not need to listen to him anymore.
Dear Jokers, I am sorry but I did not talk about the blog or the person you bring up here. I talked about the theologically extremely sound criticism and exposure of NCW ideology and practices at Thoughtful Catholic. What you say is no match to that intellectual quality.
DeleteThe purpose of review of the NCW ideology and practices as contained in your directories is to expose the penetration of heretical interpretations to our Catholic belief. It will be made transparent. The deacon is the right man to do that. When it is done, the bishop of record will make a decision if NCW or RCIA is more appropriate for Catholic initiation on Guam.
Diana, let me tell you an example. Imagine there are 10 balls in a box, 5 red and 5 black. Someone tells you your balls are not all red, because you have back balls, as well, in the box. Then you pull out a red ball from the box and declare victoriously that it is red and nobody is right who says there are black balls in the box.
DeleteI hope you see what I mean. The review is necessary because the box must be opened up to show its content. The 5 black balls will be exposed, no matter what. Your rebuttal of Thoughtful Catholic is insufficient, because you only cherry pick your red balls and show them up stating your balls are red. But the story is not about this. The story, as Chuck presented with theological rigor, is that some of your balls are black!
Dear Anonymous at 7:21 am,
DeleteThe Catholic Church comes in many different colors as your example points out - red balls and black balls. In my view, no matter whether you take out the red or black ball, it is still Catholic. In your view, you only see the color of the person.
Diana, let me give you some hints: the box is your NCW. The balls are the teaching and practices of NCW. The red balls are orthodox the black balls are heretics. The criticism is about the black balls, that is about potentially heretic interpretations. You only pull our red balls that is what you think is orthodox. But this is no evidence that no black balls are in your box. That is why you need to open the box, open the directories so a transparent inspection can be done. I grant you that the black balls will be found.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:04 am,
DeleteAs far as I know, the Vatican has never declared the NCW a heretic. And you do not have the authority to declare the NCW a heretic. Therefore, the NCW is Catholic until the Vatican says so.
You are right, Diana. Nobody called the NCW as an organization heretic. The contention is that the lack of transparency of what you teach gives rise to possible heretical interpretations. RCIA is teaching the exactly same, guaranteed content at any point of the world. The RCIA curriculum is available to everyone. However, in lieu of transparency, the same thing cannot be said, even less verified, about the NCW!
DeleteThere is no mechanism whatsoever to guarantee that the updated version and not the previous edition of the Catechetical Directory is taught in NCW circles with the thousand and thousand insertions Vatican dicasteries made. The text you actually "transmit" is the concern. Do you understand it now? Without these insertions your teaching is not valid. Orthodoxy is only ensured through the new context created by the dicasteries.
However, by the demonstrated disdain of the leaders of NCW toward Vatican, there is a well justified suspicion that the new context is ignored by your catechists altogether. This is the real issue! This is the reason the bishop of record at any diocese around the world may prefer RCIA rather than NCW for Catholic initiation. We'll see how Archbishop Michael will decide for the Guam faithful after he obtains the outcome of a thorough review of your directories.
Dear Anonymous at 2:29 pm,
DeleteWhat we teach has always been transparent. All you had to do was attend the catechesis. The catechesis and the Eucharist is open to the public.
Diana, do you think Byrnes' judgment of Apuron was a part of God's plan?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:36 am,
DeleteYes. It got the picketers to stop their Sunday protest. So, it was God's plan after all. It is past midnight so those who just made comments, I will have your comments published after reading it in the morning.
Rather say that the picketers followed the plan of God.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:17 am,
DeleteI would prefer to give the credit to God.
The credit goes to the picketers who fought hard for this outcome for a year.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:49 am,
DeleteThis is where you and I differ. All praise and glory goes to God rather than to ourselves because it was He who accomplished things through us. Without Him, we are nothing. With Him, everything.
Of course all praise and glory go to God Who worked through the Sunday picketers to accomplish His Will.
DeleteAnd Apuron was part of God's Plan for the archdiocese. God allowed an evil bishop to reign over the faithful just as He allowed evil kings to reign over His Chosen Ones in the Old Testament.
Dear Anonymous at 9:47 am,
DeleteYour judgment against Apuron as "evil" is unfair, unjust, unmerciful, prejudice, and plain wrong. It not only goes against Christianity, but also against common civil decency.
In my opinion Byrnes did not criticize Apuron, but Apuron's practices. The same way as Donald Trumps practices can be scrutinized in the media, Apuron's practices can also be up for scrutiny!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:34 pm,
DeleteIf Archbishop Byrnes had said "the return of the old ways of doing things would be a disaster" then he is not referring to Archbishop Apuron. But that is not what he said. He said, "the return of Archbishop Apuron would be a disaster...." That is why the media and the jungle was having a field day with the word "disaster". It was referring to the person of the Archbishop. What is even more appalling is after saying all that, Archbishop Byrnes admits to the media that he has fallen in love with the island and wants to stay as Archbishop of Guam. This only reveals his real reason for criticizing his brother Bishop.
Another judgment:
Delete"This only reveals his real reason for criticizing his brother Bishop."
So what, based on his words you say that Archbishop has his eyes on taking over the Archdiocese for himself and thus throws Archbishop Apuron under the bus. Judging his character now are you?
We must pray for Deacon Steve, this position that he holds will help him in his conversion. He will review the Directory and find that it has been approved from Rome. The Directory contains all the citations and references to the CCC and Scripture as was done by the group that Rome appointed to review it. Steve will also review the Celebrations of The NCW such as the WORD, EUCHARIST and RECONCILIATION. Steve will find nothing majorly different and the little changes that do occur are already allowed at any Mass such as the Admonitions during the Eucharist and the Rite of Reconciliation for Several Penitents. He will review how money is handled in the NCW and finally realize that you dont need to do checks and balancing when there is nothing to account for.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good day for the NCW because finally the Archbishop has realized that in order for the others to believe that the NCW is good, he must send in a very outspoken member of the opposing groups. They will now have no choice but to agree with Deacon Steve or call him a liar as they have done so to everyone else who stands with the NCW. The truth will set them free!
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Taking the outcome of the review granted is never smart.
DeleteThere will be a public debate on this that cannot be concluded without publishing the directories. The whole point is transparency. The text must be made available to read for everyone, especially for lay NCW parishioners.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:37 pm,
DeleteEspecially for lay NCW parishioners? As far as I can see, the only ones asking for it are those who are not NCW and who do not even attend any celebrations held by the NCW. I am in the NCW, and I do not care to see the directories. I know enough of Catholic doctrines to determine whether what the catechists is preaching is Catholic or not. My concern is to live out my faith.
Diana, you oppress your desire to read the stuff. Others don't need to oppress because they are not NCW. They are fighting for you, so that you be free.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:57 pm,
DeleteI believe you meant suppress. My desire is to know Christ. I know enough Catholic doctrine to already figure out what is Catholic and what is non-Catholic.
Peace Diana. I am anonymous 8:22pm.
ReplyDelete(I leave it to you to post this - if you don't I am fine)
Although it is humbling of you to respond as if I was correcting you, but in truth, I wasn't, it was moreso a reminder for the brothers who visit your blog to spit fire on what is perceived as the "enemy" only to justify their peace. It's like our catechist also reminded us, "we spoil our children to justify our peace" - in other words, to justify OUR sins.
You must surely know that your blog is one of the places that brothers of the way (across the island and world) would come to visit to be on top of the things that happen this day of age on or about the events of Guam and the Neocatechumenal Way.
To me, it is more spiritually easier to handle/swallow the things that happen in here versus "the jungle". The last time I went into "the jungle" (which was over a year ago) - the feeling was like the feeling when you come out of a very very good convivence - as soon as you pass the door to go home, a team of demons are there waiting at the door, waiting to attack. It's like a heaviness that can't be explained - but one that you know wounds the soul and can probably better explained as "dark". So with our natural inclination of curiosity, we come here and see the battle you have been, in a sense, fighting. Because many times you seem to say the most proper things.
Because you many times defend the church and her charisms, one such as the Neocatechumenal Way, in a sense this is like a mission and you know what they say when you say yes or enact on a mission for God - that you have just pissed off the devil. The more you speak truth, the more the devil will be pissed. As we have been told, the devil is ALWAYS smarter than us and the only way to defeat him is with God in the center of you heart and life.
I thank God for you - for what you do to risk for the faith and I pray to God for you - to set His archangels around you, to defend you so that you do not feel alone and most especially to our Blessed Mother that she intervene for the Church on Guam.
Courage sister! We love and are here with you.
Dear Anonymous at 2:58 am who is also 8:22 pm,
DeleteThank you for your comment.
Thank you brother. The whole point is pissing off the devil. Yeah! We have to piss the devil because he is always smarter than us entrapping us by our pride. Look what we are doing so often?
DeleteWe often find ourselves retaliating, complaining, rationalizing, doubting, etc. So we should ask the Holy Spirit to help us against the temptations of a smart devil. To help us accept our situations, even persecution at times, and pray we can overcome the snares of the devil to destroy our spirit.
I second that!!! 2:58 AM May God bless you Lady ''Diana''
DeleteMany are called, few are chosen. Yet many young men being called to the priesthood in Guam were given a one way formation to the Diosesan Priesthood, that was to study at RMS in Yona. Yes many of our young local men were forced to give up thier calling because they did not want to become an RMS Presbyter.
ReplyDeleteDeacon Larry was forced. From his mouth to my ears-in 2007 we attended the Pre-Cana or or some other marriage class at San Ramon Hill. He said in order for him to become a Deacon he would have to walk. Check him.
ReplyDeleteHe said he was glad afterwards, but whatever, truth of the matter is the former ABAA Administration and these Diaconate candidates were all forced all to walk.
I guess Deacon Larry is honored to be swinging the incense vase all around the large altar during the BOY Convivances.
Dear Anonymous at 7:25 am,
DeleteThe FACT is that ALL the candidates were ordained, including the ones who did not walk. So, if there was a threat, why was it not carried out?
In the end all candidates were ordained. But during their training they got unfair spiritual pressure on them. People who have an orthodox Catholic faith find it offensive to attend unorthodox education.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:45 pm,
DeleteReally? They never complained about the catechesis....what you call unorthodox education.
Good grief...they forced themselves because they wanted to become deacons. Going to the Catechises is NOT walking in the NCW, it is like going to a class and getting information that somehow helps you...Walking in the Way starts when you answer yes to the question of whether you want to continue.
ReplyDeleteThis should have been volunteer. The disaster is in the soul when you are forced to act against your conscience.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:46 pm,
DeleteYou are over exaggerating. There is nothing immoral about listening to a lecture for an hour twice a week.
This is fine if done on a volunteer basis. But being forced is like forced feeding. The meal does not taste the same and puked out.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:01 pm,
DeleteIf they want a voluntary basis, then they should not be deacons. A deacon takes a vow of obedience and should obey the Archbishop. So when the Archbishop recommends that they listen to an hour of catechesis, then they should do it. If they want voluntary basis, then do not become a deacon. The catechesis is open to the public on a voluntary basis.
Diana, you forgot that Apuron had to apologize.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:56 pm,
DeleteHe apologized because he wanted to clear up the misunderstanding, which is the Christian thing to do. Nevertheless, Deacon Steve could not forgive him.
No, he apologized because he coerced the deacons that was a sin. A loving father cannot coerce his sons to do moral turpitude against their conscience.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:22 am,
DeleteAccording to Deacon Steve who wrote his comment in the jungle, the Archbishop apologized for the "misunderstanding", but he could not accept the apology because it was not what the deacon liked to hear.
Diana and remember what pope Francis said courage to be a Christian is to be witness of our faith and thanking god for what he has done in our life and that persecution is of today not in the past but is still going like how Byrnes is persecuting us for believing in god
ReplyDeleteDear God is one,
DeleteCould you please remember to capitalize God with a capital "G". Also, I do not think Archbishop Byrnes is persecuting us for believing in God. I think he is pleasing one side.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteAccording to Catholic News Agency, Kiko, upon the 2010 approval of the 13 volumes of the NCW Directory (finally revised and corrected by Rome), said: "It has been revised by the Holy See and completed. It's correct. This is from the Church."
"The Directory, " he said, "will be very important because now a parish priest who says something, we can say, "Look Father, What it says here on page 427, this was approved by the Church"
Well, Kiko and the NCW have never shown when questioned that all the deletions and additions to the NCW Mass are "approved by the Church" by showing us any of the pages of the Directory. The Directories were corrected and approved; however, that doesn't mean that they are being observed. Could this be like the Statutes that were approved and not followed?? The "unapproved" (proposed) Statutes are still very easily accessible on the official website of the NCW, yet the "approved" Statutes are...where????
Deception is of the devil. Eph. 6:12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Dear Anonymous at 3:04 pm,
DeleteIf Kiko was going against the directives of Rome, then ask yourself why Kiko is not hiding the way we do the celebrations and the catechesis. Why have it all in the open?
At any rate, Deacon Steve can review the Catechetical Directory, which was approved by Rome. As Jokers Wild pointed out, the jungle will now either agree with Deacon Steve or call him a liar.
@ 3:04 " yet the approved Statutes are...where?"
DeleteI'm sorry to disappoint you but one of the key things to remember is that, particularly with certain materials, documents etc. of the Church, not everything is online.
ReplyDeleteThis warning given in love to BOTH sides.
Mark 8:36
For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and to lose his soul?
The potty-mouth statements, the pride, the disobedience, the stubbornness and refusal of sound arguments and corrections, the uncharitable comments, etc....
on both sides endanger our souls.
Well Dayenu.....Despite Byrnes threw his brother bishop under the bus. We have God! They cannot win God and they cannot take away our beautiful memories. I knew it in a get go that Byrnes would only lean on one side.
ReplyDeleteGreat job Byrnes you should be a righteous saint. Well deserve but is okay.... God is good. He believe the mask that was worn.
Don't forget, dear anon at, that heresy and orthodoxy in the catholic Church have always been tricky. What was considered heresy once, later became orthodoxy. There are many instances for that. For example, the time for Vatican 2 would not have been right about a thousand years ago!
ReplyDeleteBy the simple reason that the faithful was not ready to embrace the new ideas back at that time. Many tenets we hold dear now as orthodox, would have been rejected as heretical. You had to wait 1000 years to reverse that!
The appointment of deacon Martinez is a clear signal as to where archbishop Byrnes stands. That does not make him a good or a bad person, but it reveals whom he is siding with. Siding with someone in the present situation is perhaps not the best choice. I pray that he continues to do his job and make these decisions with a clear conscience. I am afraid he will only realise he might have done a mistake when it will be too late.
ReplyDeleteCleaning up the Curia
ReplyDeleteAfter being elected on a reform mandate by the College of Cardinals in March 2013, Francis immediately started his reform of the Roman Curia, the church’s bureaucracy, with efforts to clean up finances and streamline departments. In December 2016, Francis accused the leaders of the Curia of malicious and hidden resistance to reform, a resistance that was a sport that “sprouts in disturbed minds”. Look at what pope Francis did and this is what archbishop Anthony did clean up the church of corruption by getting rid of two priests who was corrupt and what was the result just like what's happening with the pope he was getting resistance for those who want power and what is Byrnes doing here the opposite making the church be corrupted and making the people who opposed the archbishop be ranged with power and even the archbishop was doing like what pope Francis is making it be a global church here on Guam with the ordination of the rms but Byrnes is just not making it be about a global church but a bureaucrat where he's only cares about money
Two things, One, what proof does God is Ones has to show that Father Paul and Monsignor James is corrupted. Two, What Priest or Deacon will Bishop Byrnes appoint? Remember that the church on Guam is divided and the cause of that division is AB Apuron when he sided with the NEOs. Diana, it really doesn't matter to me whether the NEOs practice their beliefs in our church. My question is, did AB Apuron inform the catholic community as a whole about the NEOs being able to practice in the parishes? Maybe, informing the Catholic community before hand can possibly reduce the misunderstanding of the NEOs.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDeleteIt has been awhile since I have wrote on your blog. As to the OP, or the appointment of Deacon Stephen Martinez as the Delegate to the Neocatechumenal Way has many people like myself question Archbishop Byrnes. Where does he stand?
Several weeks ago, I had a good conversation with a close friend who informed me that Archbishop Byrnes surrounds himself with people who are at the root of the division in our Archdiocese. He surrounds himself with people who started this whole mess and even those who protest in front of Cathedral. He surrounds himself with those affiliated with the CCOG and LFM. Of course, most of them have in one way or another talked to Rohr or have some relation with him... whether it be by blog, phone call or media...
But as the appointment of Deacon Martinez as the Delegate of the NCW was because Archbishop wanted to put him there. Deacon Martinez express to him that he "would help" and that it was a great idea. He can be in charge of the NCW because he is carrying out an agenda of the CCOG, which was to get rid of the NCW in general. But, the NCW is not the problem! The problem is that some feel threaten that the NCW is working for some people and if the NCW is not for you then you do not need to join.
I also heard from some Filipino Priests saying that Father Dan resigned because he was receiving threatening and nasty emails from some members that affiliate themselves with the organizations that protests in front of Cathedral.
-Guamboy
Why do you want to know where Archbishop Byrnes stands?
DeleteGuamboy, it's great to see you sharing your inside information again. I learned so much from your last comment back in June. I was hoping to hear from you soon and here you are. Keep up your most excellent investigative work.
DeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteRor threatens with nasty emails those who do not share his thinking.
I think it's Byrnes or deacon Steve so don't because their trying trick us because they know the truth but they just don't want to be obedient to the pope and follow his direction instead of his
DeleteAt 12:54 PM, post those nasty emails so all can see.
ReplyDeleteTo those opposing Archbishop Byrnes:
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget that it was Pope Francis who sent Archbishop Byrnes to Guam to set things straight.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
883 - The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but THIS POWER CANNOT BE EXERCISED WITHOUT THE AGREEMENT OF THE ROMAN PONTIFF."
If Archbishop Byrnes is in agreement with Pope Francis, why do you oppose him and his corrections??
Remember, Pope Francis is well aware of the problems that exist in Guam, and he sent Archbishop Byrnes here.
In regards to the NCW Mass, the additions and deletions are NOT included in the approved Statutes, the approved Directory, any indult, recognitio, or dubia. Each Pope, knowing of the problems and division this is causing, would have certainly issued the written permission necessary (refer to Saint John Paul II's requirment for "recognitio" for any changes the bishops were making to the Mass). But, neither Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus, nor Pope Francis has done so. Until that time, every Bishop that has allowed the NCW changes to the Mass is contradicting the Popes - whether intentionally or because of being ill-informed. Priests or Bishops that I've sent info on this issue, will not participate in or allow the NCW Mass with all the illicit additions and deletions.
Diana - Question: The NCW apparently are using the altar, but, are there groups that are still sitting to consume the Eucharist, and do the NCW members still stand during the Eucharistic Prayer?
Dear Anonymous at 11:11 pm,
DeleteThe NCW has been obedient to the changes made by Archbishop Byrnes. If you do not believe, all you had to do is attend the Eucharist held by the NCW. The Eucharist is open to anyone.
Also, I was not opposing Archbishop Byrnes. Unlike Rohr, I did not incite anyone to oppose him as well. However, I can correct Archbishop Brynes. He is in need of correction regarding his judgment against Archbishop Byrnes.
Dear Diana, you should such not duck the echo problem. The approved Statutes do not permit such practice. Your interpretation of your Statutes is not in line with Rome's understanding. Archbishop Byrnes is aware of the problem and will enforce what Rome prescribed.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:27 am,
DeleteThe echoes are in the approved Statutes. And Archbishop Brynes did not take it out. It remains in the celebration of the Eucharist.
No echo is permitted in the approved Statutes during mass. Please, produce your evidence otherwise.
DeleteDear Diana, I know that the echoes are mentioned in relation to the Word of God, but not in relation to the Eucharist. Can you please show exactly where you mean the Statutes allow the echoes in the Eucharist? Thank you
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:09 am,
DeleteThe echoes are the individual testimonies of the lay people. According to the letter of Cardinal Francis Arinze to the Neocatechumenal Way:
2. As for any admonitions issued before the readings, these must be brief. Adherence must also be shown to what is set out in the “Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani” (nn. 105 and 128) and to the Praenotanda of the “Ordo Lectionum Missae” (nn. 15, 19, 38, 42).
3. The homily, because of its nature and importance, is reserved to the priest or deacon (cf. Codex Iuris Canonici, can. 767 § 1). As for the occasional contribution of testimonies on the part of the lay faithful, the proper places and methods for these are indicated in the Interdicasterial Instruction “Ecclesiae de Mysterio,” which was approved “in specific form” by Pope John Paul II and published on August 15, 1997. In this document, sections 2 and 3 of article 3 read as follows:
§2 - “It is permitted to have a brief instruction that helps explain better the liturgy that is being celebrated, and even, in exceptional circumstances, a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days (for seminarians, the sick, etc.), and are thought truly helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest. These instructions and testimonies must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily.”
§3 - “The possibility of ‘dialogue’ during the homily (cf. Directorium de Missis cum Pueris, no. 48) can be used occasionally and with prudence by the celebrating minister as a means of exposition, which does not transfer to others the duty of preaching.”
Careful attention must also be paid to the Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” no. 74.
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8227
by being a bureaucrat is that an agreement by only making it be about money is that an agreement by making it about the building is that an agreement taya pope francis even said it best its not about all those things that i mentioned in the above he says get out of the building and because he said capitalism is the devil because it only cares about one self and even for the comment below what did pope francis say when he was first elected as pope he said its not about getting back at another person
Delete...you mean to say Archbishop Brynes needs correction regarding his judgment against Archbishop Apuron.. since we are on the subject of correction...no pun intended. have a great day! BTW, reading your posts are very interesting, enlightening and my morning cup of coffee.. thanks for your outlet.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:03 am,
DeleteYes, Archbishop Byrnes needed correction. Someone had to tell him not to judge.
the pope gave byrnes the right to judgement.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:33 am,
DeleteNo, he did not.
And your saying this is a lie because your saying that because he's not really following the pope because like what pope Francis keeps saying it's not about money and your just making it about money and this is being a dictator from you And what's your only defense is that the pope sent him because he is sent and he's suppose to lead us as what the pope says and not being a bureaucrat loving person and the pope who in his reform gets into where the money goes if it's actually heading to it because Byrnes is resisting pope Francis
DeleteDiana - CCOG does not represent every Catholic on this island. Richard Untalan propose a $169.00 on top of tuition fee. I have 8 kids that goes to Catholic School. Concerned Catholic dies not speak for me. CCOG made this mess they're the one who encourage parishioner not to pay parishes. We out side the NCW and CCOG suffers not them. Only the rich can afford to send their children to Catholic School? What about the middle class? The original finance council with Untalan who made this mess and now made more mess. Thanks a bunch Byrnes!
ReplyDeleteThat Rohr work for what??? because he hates are Chamorro Bishop
DeleteYes! And we are also helping Saint Francis Yona pay off their bill, failure to pay years of taxes. But no need to pay attention to that matter, they're not neo. Sarcasm.
DeletePas!
-Jokers Wild
ReplyDeleteSin of deception? - To protect ones own interests by withholding or manipulating the truth. If the truth can set you free, untruths will hold you captive.
Praying for conversion of us all.
Shalom
Richard Untalan, Tim Roar,Monsignor.
ReplyDeleteIts all about Money.
with 8 children amounts to over a thousand dollars.
ReplyDeletemam you are middle class. The Blue Label swinging Priest has no concern for you. He is only concerned with the Rich. Those who give him money.
Regards to Father Dan. He was mistreated in Agana Cathedral by the former Administration who misuse money for his anniversary and given free plots. Next local bishop? Don't think so!
ReplyDelete