Over 200 years ago, George Washington, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, and other framers of the U.S. Constitution dedicated themselves to constructing a just government for the American people. Americans had just overthrown what they deemed a tyrannous British government and set out to create a national government free of tyranny. They established a government by the rule of law. According to the English-Oxford Dictionary, "Mob rule" is defined as "Control of a political situation by those outside the conventional or lawful realm, typically involving violence and intimidation." Mob justice is also an abuse of democracy in that the mob metes out justice without a trial by jury. Without a trial in an official court of law, it becomes easy to hurt or persecute a person without proof of their guilt.
The 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution protect us from the public's "opinions" and force us to rely upon actual facts, substantial evidence, testimony, and documentations as well as lawful procedures. We are entitled to think whatever we want, no matter how misinformed, but we cannot "convict" "lock up" or "persecute" anyone just because we do not like them. Demanding that a bishop be defrocked based on your opinion and without due process is mob rule.
Archbishop Apuron is already going through a canonical trial. In time, we will know the results of that trial. If found guilty, his title as Archbishop of Agana will be removed and Coadjutor Archbishop Michael Byrnes will automatically assume the role of Archbishop of Agana. On the other hand, if found not guilty, Archbishop Apuron can return as Archbishop of Agana because his title was never taken away from him. It will be the Pope to decide, not the jungle.
There has been no ruling from the canonical trial yet. Nevertheless, the jungle already made plans to go against the ruling of the canonical trial if the ruling is not in their favor. You would think that the jungle would at least be curious to know what the Vatican discovered to exonerate him.
Rohr's post gives a hint of intimidation or threat. It is already known that the Archbishop's tires had been slashed twice by an unknown person/persons before the sexual allegations emerged in 2016. The person/persons responsible for slashing the tires of Archbishop Apuron's car was never caught. So, one wonders what does Tim meant when he stated: "...and see what Apuron gets when he gets back here." One wonders, what exactly would that be? Another tire slashing? According to Tim Rohr (the bold is mine):
In any event, what we MUST be prepared for is OUR responsibility, not Rome's. If anything, this whole drama has forced at least some of us to grow up and stop looking to outsiders to solve our problems. Nothing has made me angrier than hearing people ask "when is Rome going to do something?" It makes me angry because all of this came about NOT because Rome did anything, but because a few people DID decide to do something and then they did it.
We CANNOT lose sight of that. A worst case scenario would be Apuron being exonerated and sent back to run the Archdiocese of Agana. Our attitude should be "go ahead...and see what Apuron gets when he gets back here."
Not even the pope gets to decide what is good for you and your family. The pope's only absolute competence - by virtue of his office - is limited to the absolutes of faith and morals. And he loses even that competence should he ever venture to officially depart from what has been handed down from the apostles.
His Apuron decision is an administrative one, and completely fallible. He does NOT get to decide what is good for you and your family. Our first duty is to the children God has entrusted to us, and we have already seen what happens when we neglect that duty and entrust them to the likes of Apuron.
In the 1950s, when the federal courts began striking down the Jim Crow laws in the South, one of the rising demands across the country was that the discriminators and segregationists obey "the law of the land." But somewhere along the way, the idea also arose and spread that not everyone was supposed to obey the "law of the land". Thus, began the issue of settling things on the streets rather than in the courts.
As Catholics, we are taught to always follow the Pope. Yet, along the way, comes the jungle telling the junglefolks that they do not need to follow Rome. Jesus established that the Apostle Peter and his successors be the Vicar of Christ, God's representative (CCC 936). All should be in communion with the Pope. All should follow and be in communion with Rome. This is the "rule of law" set down by God Himself through His Church (CCC 834).
JW nation is having a meeting on Wednesday. Do you think they're planning on what to do in case Apuron is exonerated?
ReplyDeleteI think they're more concern about their smaller numbers. The number of protesters usually range from 70-100. Now, they've gone down to about 30-50 people. Their numbers have been decreasing.
Delete30-50 people is quite a lot. It is like a club meeting for funsies.
DeleteBrace yourselves for the worse. Hopes and dreams may just be shattered.
ReplyDeleteThere is no relation between church ruling and secular court of law. Whatever is the decision of Vatican, the lawsuits will go on. If the canonical trial exonerates Apuron, he won't be defrocked. But the church still will be liable to pay off the settlements. This will be a brutal price tag to live with.
DeleteApuron may be reprimanded for not following the order of the Holy See. We will never know. Vatican is not required to publicize.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:14 pm,
DeleteAccording to Tim, he wants Archbishop Apuron to go to court; therefore, there will be no settlement out of court for the Apuron accusers. If that is the case, the law will be challenged.
Dear Anonymous at 6:14pm.
DeleteEven if the accusers want the lawsuits to go on. Remember that this all began with them suing the Church. Meaning our Church will suffer because Lujan the connected lawyer wants money... Its a payday and not justice.
Jungle nation formed from a mob mentality suffering from authority issues.Whoever is Archbishop will be a target for Jungle mob. Mob consists of 20 loud mouth trouble makers who sing to Rohrs music.
ReplyDeleteThe public law in question cannot be called mob rule. The protest and picketing are not making any decision only express opinion. Opinion is free.
DeleteHow do you think to convince the 20 loud mouth trouble makers that they are wrong?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:07 pm,
DeleteMob rule is defined as "control of a political situation by those outside the conventional or lawful realm, typically involving violence or intimidation." There was a lot of intimidation involved in getting that public law passed. Those who opposed the law were intimidated and ridiculed "supporters of child abusers." The mob also knows how to use our freedoms to condemn a man without due process of law. Furthermore, Rohr is preparing his group to go against the rule of law should the canonical trial exonerate Archbishop Apuron.
Rohr alone cannot lead his group against rule of law. Others give instructions to Rohr to follow.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:37 pm,
DeleteRohr enjoys taking much of the credit. He is already on record saying that it was him and his blog that got things rolling. Rohr is their voice piece. All their source came from him. He announced that Archbishop Apuron was hiding out in the seminary, and the LFM ladies comes banging at the doors of the seminary unannounced.
Dear Anonymous at 6:35 pm,
DeleteThe 20 loudmouths are the hardcore group who have been throughly brainwashed. Only the truth can set them free. We continue to pray for them.
Anonymous @ 1:55 PM, 6:35 PM and Diana @ 11:51 PM:
DeleteWho in the world are the "20 loud mouth trouble makers"? I was able to identify 5 who could be the "loudmouths" but I couldn't identify 20 (and I tried).
You cannot call people who disagree with you loud mouth trouble makers. They are firm in their belief. They consider Apuron guilty even if canon law assumes innocence. You are unable to disprove them.
DeleteLoud mouth trouble makers"? take the d out of Loud and you get the biggest mouth ''LOU'' from the Jungle
DeleteDiana, I do not see your point as valid. Where is the mob justice you are referring too? Who is making justice? It is not a "mob", not the picket line, not even the jungle. Rohr is in no position to make any kind of justice.
ReplyDeleteJustice is made at the court. The court system is the only arbiter and guarantor of prevailing justice. So what are you talking about? It is a secular system built to maintain the laws enacted by legislatures. The court system is in fact preventing mob ruling. If someone or some institution is guilty according to the court of law then judgment will be made according to secular law. Do you know anything better?
Dear Anonymous at 6:28 pm,
DeleteIn the secular court, the constitutionality of the law will be challenged. And if the court declares it unconstitutional, there will be no lawsuit against the Archbishop and the Archdiocese. Archbishop Apuron, on the other hand, can bring a libel and defamation lawsuit against all his accusers. The fact shows that Rohr is very fearful if the canonical trial exonerates him. So fearful that he is preparing his disciples to do something about it. He is not even curious to know what the Vatican discovered to exonerate him.
If Timmy is so fearful of an exonerated Apuron without being curious of the evidence used to exonerate him, this can only mean that Timmy has something to hide.
DeleteDiana, try to separate your thinking for a minute from Rohr and the Jungle. In the justice system it is 100% irrelevant what these people want or say. Look at the facts! There are lawsuits filed against the diocese that will have their due course. Why do you think it matters in the outcome whoever says what apart from the court?
DeleteThe constitutionality of a public law can be challenged once a verdict has been made based on that law. With no verdict how do you challenge the law? In a process of appeals, the US Supreme Court can strike down the law. But how can you claim unconstitutionality when out-of-court settlements are enacted?
Rohr has no impact on settlements. If the diocese shells out a couple million dollars to settle the claims, how can you recover that money? It won't be possible even if the law would turn out to be unconstitutional.
Diana, libel and defamation lawsuits won't be possible by several reasons:
Delete1. by settlements the diocese will admit liability;
2. settled claims cannot be labeled as libel and defamation;
3. speculations published at the Jungle blog cannot be construed as public defamation;
4. Apuron won't be able to unsubstantiate the claims;
5. the church will discourage any further litigation.
Dear Anonymous at 12:48 am,
DeleteThe libel and defamation lawsuit has nothing to do with the settlement claims or with the Hope and Healing Program. A libel and defamation lawsuit is filed simply because false statements or allegations have been made about the person, which resulted in the loss of the person's job and damage to his
name and reputation, etc. Archbishop Apuron has suffered the loss of his position along with damage to his name, reputation, and character as a result of these allegations. As for the jungle blog, Tim has always been very straightforward in attacking the Archbishop.
Diana, do you know what is public defamation? How could a blog qualify?
DeleteIf Apuron lost his job, it is due to Vatican and nobody else. So it is on Vatican to make recompense. Why do you think it is anybody's job to correct a Vatican decision?
You might not realize but a settlement is an admission of liability. If the diocese is liable for damages then how could the accused person be free of all liability?
The court may also establish liability that will make a libel and defamation lawsuit by Apuron against his accusers moot.
Diana, the image of Guam priests is tarnished by a multitude of sexual allegations. You cannot really do much about it.
DeleteA settlement includes a provision excluding further litigation. How can you go around that, Diana, without breaching the terms of the settlement?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:44 am,
DeleteIt was not the Vatican calling the Archbishop a liar and evil. According to news reports, Archbishop Apruron did not agree to any settlements.
Rohr called Apuron a liar and evil. It is his personal opinion. His opinion is justified by testimonies. How is this a public defamation? Apuron was not suspended because of Rohr's opinion, but by the letters of the victims who gave Rome detailed account of sexual misconduct. The Holy See had no choice but set up a canonical trial.
DeleteDiana, how can you take hard core things for granted? Do you have any insight into real time church politics behind the scenes? Vatican is not interested in a lawsuit against Rohr. No more litigation, Archbishop Hon said. If Apuron goes stubbornly against Vatican again, he won't be easily forgiven.
Dear Anonymous at 5:07 pm,
DeleteThose opinions are false statements and cost him his position. Also, Rohr is not the only one who will be named in the lawsuit.
There is a limit to Freedom of speech. Free speech does not give one the right to defame another person.
Dear Diana, please elaborate on this a little bit. You claim is vague and assuming. The limit of free speech is not something you may invent. Freedom is a hardcore reality protected by the constitution. In order to make a defamation claim, you have to establish unquestionable liability of the person you want to sue. Otherwise the limits of free speech were not passed.
DeleteThe limit applies to newspapers, media and/or books. No limitation for blogs or the Internet. There is no precedent of winning a defamation claim based on a blog entry. Germany has just created a law to limit social media content. There is no such law on American soil. So please, try to be specific.
Diana, you exaggerate. Please prove that Apuron was suspended because of Rohr's opinion! Prove that Vatican made a decision by reading Rohr's blog and not by the letters they have received. The court will see the losing of the position of Apuron as a consequence of complaints by the victims.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:42 pm,
DeleteThis is not Germany. Defamation is not covered under Freedom of expression. As I said, there is a limit to free speech. And this limitations also extend to blogs. According to the weblink below:
"Most professional writers and members of the media are familiar with this stuff, but chances are, you're not. If you write, host, or even comment on a blog, you need to be. That's because, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, we all have the same rights and responsibilities under defamation law."
https://www.cnet.com/news/bloggers-beware-youre-liable-to-commit-libel/
Dear Anonymous at 11:46 pm,
It is already on record that Rohr was involved with his letter to the Vatican. The possibility then exits that Rohr may also be involved with helping others write their letters. Furthermore, the Vatican has been looking into Rohr's blog. In fact, Tim Rohr boasted at the number of pageviews that the Vatican logged into his blog. Based on Rohr's posts and comments in his blog, we can then assume that the Vatican suspended Archbishop Apuron.
Diana, Rohr, indeed, wrote to Rome. But Apuron was not suspended because of that. Unless, of course, Rohr wrote his letter as a victim. Vatican is not reacting to rumors but has to respond to a detailed victim's statement.
DeleteDo you think Rohr wrote a letter to Rome as a victim? Did he claim that he was abused by Apuron? That would be new to me!
Dear Anonymous at 8:39 am,
DeleteIt is on record that Rohr was involved with helping Denton write his letter to Rome. Archbishop Apuron claimed that it was a conspiracy to remove him and that Rohr was behind that conspiracy.
Is this why Tim changes his post to Junglewatch, jungle Nation, Tim, chuck white, Frenchie,??????
DeleteMaybe Archbishop Apuron can sue Tim for abuse.
DeleteArchbishop Apuron was removed/suspended from his position? Didn't he step aside of his own accord? Looks like Tim was right.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:58 pm,
DeleteThe Archbishop still has his title as Archbishop of Agana, but he is unable to assume that position until his canonical trial is over.
Because he was suspended and did NOT freely step aside as he claimed.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:51 pm,
DeleteArchbishop Apuron already made it clear to the public on May 13, 2016 that he intends to get a canonical trial in Rome to prove his innocence. Like Cardinal Pell, Archbishop Apuron claimed he is innocent.
Please identify this mob rule?
ReplyDeleteSunday protestors are all retired. They don't look like a mob. Retired grandparents praying. Old saintly people praying for peace.
Dear Anonymous at 11:41 pm,
DeleteThey are not praying for peace. Their signs says it all. Since the beginning, they prayed for a bishop to be defrocked without due process of a trial.
Mob rule cannot be claimed unless the mob influences justice. Where is the outcome influenced? What kind of influence are you talking about? How do you establish your claim of mob ruling, dear Diana, when justice is free from out-of-court influence? Can you prove otherwise?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:53 am,
DeleteAnd this is why we come to Rohr's statement: "......and see what Apuron gets when he gets back here."
Diana Timmy is now using the new cdf to say it's the end of the road for kiko because he's saying that the pope didn't fall into the trappings of cardinal filoni
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteRohr got a plan." see what Apuron gets when he get back here."
Diana Timmy is making another rumor that father Luis and the archbishop is back on island he just wants everything his way
ReplyDeleteDiana Timmy is trying to distract from himself in the jungle because he said so what that he helped walter write his letter and then he's pointing to the 2013 letter to a cardinal who runs the knights of the holy sepulcher he knows that his butt is being kicked
ReplyDeleteThe Jungle is fully ordain Leeche Mob!
ReplyDelete