While Tim Rohr twists the statements of Father Adrian as well as other documents, Chuck White continues to twist the teachings of the Catholic Church. According to Chuck White: The inspired Scriptures do not tell us that Abraham was a polytheist- Kiko made that up. The Scriptures only tell us that Abraham’s father, Terah, served many gods:
"And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Your fathers lived of old beyond the Euphra′tes, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. [Joshua 24:2]"Chuck White's Blog
BEFORE God revealed Himself to Abraham, Abraham was worshipping another god, which is the same god his father worshipped. Abraham was born into a family of pagans who worshipped many gods especially the moon god, Nanna. According to Stephen Ray in his interview with Catholic World Report and Defenders of the Catholic Faith:
We visited Ur of the Chaldees, which is where Abram lived for 75 years before he was called by the God of Glory. He worshiped the god of Ur whose name was Nanna, god of the moon. Very few people realize this or know anything about his early life.Catholic World Report
The Rays were in Iraq January 7-11. They landed in Basra, traveled to Nasiriyah and filmed in Ur, the homeland of Chaldeans. The Rays are following the same exact path and filming the very places Abraham visited.
“Abraham was a pagan idol worshiper,” Ray said. “In Joshua Chapter 24, Abraham was told his father and ancestors lived beyond the (Euphrates) river and served other gods. Then, God’s glory called Abraham to leave his heritage, graves of his ancestors in Mesopotamia and go to Haran (present-day Turkey) then to Canaan (modern-day Israel).”Defenders of the Catholic Faith
Furthermore, in his book entitled Journey of Faith: A Study of the Life of Abraham, by Rev. Deacon Sabatino Carnazzo (who is not in the NCW), Abraham was a pagan before God revealed Himself to him. According to the weblink below (the bold is mine):
Institute of Catholic CultureThousands of years ago, God called Abram to leave the ancient city of Ur in Babylon, promising to bless him and make his descendants into a great nation. In faith, Abram then began an epic journey which would lead him from paganism into a covenant with the one true God. Journey in faith with our Father in Faith, and discover how God calls each of us, though trials and tribulations, into a relationship with him.
Apparently, Chuck White had no idea about Abraham's early life. By the way, Stephen Ray is also not in the NCW, but he knew (just as Kiko did) that Abraham was born and raised in a pagan family. Abraham stopped being a pagan AFTER the one true God revealed Himself to him. It only takes common sense to know that a child born and raised in a pagan family is a pagan. But to Chuck White, Abraham already believed in the one true God the moment he was born and raised in a pagan family. There is no common sense in that. Therefore, the "Abraham" taught by the jungle and Chuck White is NOT the same Abraham taught by the Catholic Church.
Abraham was a failure because he was a very old man without any land and heirs. Having an heir was important. The fact that Abraham was a failure (having no land and heirs) was the reason God chose him. God does not choose those who are successful, rich, strong, wise, and the best speaker. He always chooses the failures, the weak, the poor, the handicap, and even the worst sinner to carry out His plan of salvation.
Abraham was chosen because he was the one without any land and heirs and unable to have any children due to his old age and barren wife. God manifested His glory through Abraham's failure by giving him land and a son through Sarah. If God had chosen a man with land and a wife capable of bearing many children......then people would think that it was the man, not God who achieved those things. See my blog on Catholicism below for a better explanation:
God's Choice
Wow Diana! For a woman just walking in the way, you sure know a LOT!
ReplyDeleteDiana, Abraham was rich, had cattle and land to feed the cattle. He had a son, Ishmael, from Hagar. He was quite successful having a trophy wife, Sarah, and a concubine, Hagar, who bore a son to him.
ReplyDeleteHe was an idolator, it is true. He wanted to sacrifice his son Isaac, not knowing that God does not feed on the blood of little children as pagan "gods" do.
God wanted to test Abraham and Abraham should have said: "Do not test me God because I know you don't feed on the blood of little children as pagan "gods" do." But he forgot to say that and so God had to send an angel to stop him. This was the big failure of Abraham.
I think the pagan God's did Abraham a lot for Abraham. They prepared them. So i don't know why Diana talks about pagan god's in a a very condescending way (read between the lines)?
DeleteWithout themAbraham would not have heard the voice of the one true God.
Dear Anonymous at 10:30 am,
DeleteThere is only one God. No other gods exist. All those pagan gods were invented by man.
At the time of Abraham there was no big difference between pagans and non-pagans. The practices of worshiping God/ gods were pretty much the same. The Law only came centuries later with Moses.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:45 pm,
DeleteThere was a big difference between pagans and non-pagans. The pagans were worshipping statues of wood and stone. The people from Canaan sacrificed their children to the god Molek. The religion of ancient Persia is Zoroastrian. Human sacrifices are also practiced in that religion.
"He always chooses the failures, the weak, the poor, the handicap, and even the worst sinner to carry out His plan of salvation."
ReplyDeleteHe also chooses kings and people of power like Joseph who was sinless and became a high ranking official in the court of Pharaoh or king Cyrus the Great who released the captives from Babylon. God also chose Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, these rich senators of the Jewish Sanhedrin, to serve and assist our Lord in Jerusalem.
Dear Anonymous at 9:10 am,
DeleteGod chose Joseph before he became a king. Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. God gave Joseph the power to interpret dreams BEFORE he became a king. So, he was chosen by God before he became a king. It was God who made him a king. In the same way, David was a poor shepherd boy chosen by God and made a king by God.
You should have read my blog on Catholicism. King Cyrus was a pagan. God chose a PAGAN king to show the world that God can work even through pagans. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Jewish council. Both of them came to believe Jesus after hearing his teaching. They were not chosen because of their wealth and status but because of who they were and the people they hang around with. The Pharisees and Jewish council (Sanhedren) persecuted Christ and the Early Christians. They were the worst of sinners, but out of them came two saints.
White can't find any example in the Bible of Abraham worshipping idols. Can you? What do the Orthodox Jews say about this?
ReplyDeleteAlso, White asserts that Abraham wasn't a "failure" by any stretch of the imagination, and that he never "idolized" his son Isaac. Do the Orthodox Jews say that he was a failure?
Dear Anonymous at 9:40 am,
DeleteYou stated: "White can't find any example in the Bible of Abraham worshipping idols. Can you?"
I am a Catholic. I do not believe in "sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) as you obviously do. Catholics follow "Sacred Scripture" and "Sacred Tradition."
According to the Jewish website below, Abraham did not know the one true God UNTIL He revealed Himself to Him. After Abraham knew who He was, he started destroying the idols of his father. Abraham never destroyed those idols UNTIL AFTER he learned about the one true God.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/246612/jewish/Abraham.htm
Hi Diana, that article from Chabad.org doesn't say what you say it says.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:56 am,
DeleteYes, it does. It reveals that Abraham did not know God until later on. Furthermore, I am not Jewish. I will go by the teachings of the Catholic Church. In other words, I already cited three Catholic weblinks in the OP saying that Abraham was a pagan until God revealed Himself to him.
Abraham was a local chieftain. He was a noble person who lived at about the time of King Hammurabi. The Babylonian king Hammurabi produced the first written code of law in cuneiform.
DeleteHi Diana, I'm trying to find examples of God calling an idolater to do great things for Him. I can find sinners among the patriarchs, yes, but not former idolaters. For example, Noah and Enoch, Abraham's predecessors, both walked with God BEFORE they were given the special call that they were known for. Aaron made the Golden calf, but he did so AFTER he was called, and the Scriptures are not entirely clear that he himself worshiped the thing.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:54 am,
DeleteKing Cyrus was a PAGAN king chosen by God to lead Israel. He was the King of Persia and a pagan. Being pagan, he worshiped other gods, but God chose him anyway.
The Persian King Cyrus was not exactly pagan in the sense of worshiping pagan gods. In the Persian religion there is a supreme God who can be identified with the God the Father. The difference is that they also have an evil god, Demiurge, who is the same as Lucifer, also in the rank of a "god". This belief produces a dualism of light and darkness, good and evil.
DeleteKing Cyrus accepted the prophesy of Isaiah, calling him a Servant of Yahweh, with great delight. He understood Yahweh as the heavenly Father, the supreme God of the universe. He was eager to let the Jewish people go free and return to the Holy Land.
Thank you, Diana. Likening Abraham to King Cyrus really helps me to understand. He too, was close to God, just like Abraham.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:59 pm,
DeleteCyrus was a pagan just as Abraham was a pagan. Do not redefine the word "pagan" on your own. In many religions, there is always a "supreme god." In Egypt, the supreme god was Ra. In Greece, it was Zeus. In Scandinavia, it was Odin. In India, Vishnu was the supreme god of the Hindus, etc.
But it was the one true God who stirred the heart of Cyrus so that he would come to know Him just as God had revealed Himself to Abraham so he would also come to know Him. God chooses whom He wants. He does not always choose His own people. He can and has chosen pagans to carry out His plan of salvation.
Diana, in the Persian religion, also called Zoroastrianism, there are not many gods like in the Egyptian, Greek, etc. religions.
DeleteCyrus believed in one supreme God as being the same as Yahweh. There is only one additional "god" in the Persian religion, but it is not a real God, it is the anti-pole of the supreme God, a Demiurge, a Lucifer, the spirit of darkness. Cyrus was able to serve Yahweh following Isaiah's prophesy because of his Zoroastrian religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
I hope this helps.
Dear Anonymous at 11:17 pm,
DeleteThe Catechism of the Catholic Church says that there are some good things in other religions. These good things come from the one true God because all goodness comes from Him only. The good things found in those religions were placed there to prepare the pagans to receive the Gospel of Christ. Nevertheless, that does not make that religion the truth. I am sure that even you agree that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Diana, I'm so glad that you mentioned Sacred Tradition! You could really nail Chuck White if you could show a quote from a Church Father that said that Abraham was an idolater! Do it!
ReplyDeleteYou hit it!
ReplyDelete