Pope Francis spoke to the tribunal of the Roman Rota, which deals with annulments and stressed the importance of better preparing couples for the sacrament of marriage. The pope emphasized that a life long Christian marriage is not only for a select few but possible for all. According to the weblink below: Therefore, the Pope stressed, there is greater reason for all the structures of the Church to work toward an “appropriate preparation for marriage, in a sort of new catechumenate — I stress this: in a sort of new catechumenate — so desired by some Synodal Fathers.”Pope Francis To The Roman Rota
It is interesting that Pope Francis says "new catechumenate" and even stressed this word. :-) It is no secret that the Necoatechumenal Way has been successful in creating mission families and itinerants who were willing to leave everything behind to evangelize in other countries. People are impressed with how the families are open to life and how faith is transmitted to the children.
We live in a world where the divorce rate is high and most couples prefer cohabitation over the commitment of marriage. However, in the Way, families are instructed to pray together as a family. Families pray morning prayer together. In the communities, single people sometimes gather together in a home for morning prayer. Other times, families would invite community members who are single to join them for morning prayer. Prayer is very powerful. It brings all people of God together including those who are in Heaven interceding for us.
How egotistical and proud. One moment you claim that the pope knows all about the NCW and the things you do, and now you want to claim that he is speaking about you when he speaks of this "new catechumenate" in regard to marriage. If it were the NCW that he was proposing, don't you think he would have said just that?
ReplyDeleteHe is referring to a "new" approach - obviously he doesn't trust the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 12:11 am,
DeleteYou stated: "He I referring to a "new" approach."
Or so you think? You are just like the anonymous priest who replaced the words "Christian teaching" to "Church." Here you are replacing the word "catechumenate" to "approach." The Pope did not say new approach. He said new catechumenate. Pope Francis has always supported and endorsed the NCW.
Anonymous 12.11am - why can't you accept the simple fact that the Pope supports wholeheartedly the neocatechumenal way? Just last March, not even a year ago, he said, "The Pope’s task, the task of Peter, is to confirm his brothers in the faith. Thus, you too wanted by this gesture to ask that the Successor of Peter confirm your call, support your mission, bless your charism. And today I confirm your call, I support your mission and I bless your charism."
DeleteAmen.
Why didn't he say "The Neocatechumenal Way" then, seeing as you claim he is supportive and familiar with that heresy?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:11 am,
DeleteAs someone pointed out below, "Neo" means "new" in Greek.
The Pope's Greek now?
DeleteSeriously, one can conceive of other forms of a "new catechumenate" which are quite distinct from the Neocatechumenal Way. No one doubts that marriage, like all the sacraments, requires a firm catechetical foundation. But that does not mean that the Neocatechumenal Way is the only true way of doing it - in fact many would conclude that the NCW is an untrue way of doing it.
If the Neocatechumenal Way was docile to the Spirit and to the authority of the Church, rather than being narcissistic, inflexible and cruel, some might reasonably identify it with the Pope's comments. But it is totally out of the question that the NCW might need to reform, and therefore it rules itself out by its own self-obsession.
Dear Anonymous at 3:58 pm,
DeleteThe NCW teaches that families should pray the morning prayer together? Explain how that is wrong? The NCW teaches that families should eat together at the dining table as a family without any distractions from television and cell phones. Explain how that is wrong. Perhaps, you think that family members should eat separately? The NCW teaches that the Catholic faith should be transmitted by the parents rather than by the Catholic school or CCD program. Explain to me how that is wrong.
If that was all the NCW taught, there would be no problem. Keep going though.
DeleteThe NCW teaches that Jesus "throws mud in your eyes". That is , he goes around bringing misfortune and suffering to people so as to show them their sin. Seriously, you actually teach that.
The NCW teaches that in Christianity there is no priest, no altar and no sacred place. Seriously.
The NCW teaches that grace does not act in the baptised person each and every moment, but rather that loving as Jesus taught is practically impossible, and that it takes 30 years plus to be Christian. (Presumably also, people with amnesia or dementia lose their Christianity with the onset of those conditions).
The NCW teaches that anyone that criticises the NCW is an enemy of God, and that the criticism is actually persecution. Seriously, thats what you believe. I know...its mad, but true.
The NCW teaches that it is the future Church. That the Church will eventually adopt the NCW model and a new and vibrant Church will result. Oh, and that Jesus will return to the Domus Galileae during the NCW Easter Vigil.
There is no blog big enough to list the stupidities of the NCW
Dear Anonymous at 10:58 pm,
DeleteCorrection......you mean Chuck White (who has never been in the Way) preaches what the NCW supposedly teaches. If you really want to know what the NCW teaches, you would either listen to the catechesis or to the homilies of the RMS priests rather than listening to Chuck White.
Diana, my dear, I have listened to the catechesis. Each point listed above comes from what I heard during the catechesis or in the discussions that followed.
DeleteI notice you didn't actually deny those points either.
Dear Anonymous at 10:58pm,
DeleteYour twisted untruths are typical of posters like you who have a vendetta against the NCW. We pray for you. (And you will say to yourself, there they go again with 'we pray for you'. What is wrong with a sincere prayer for you?) The NCW is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The NCW never claimed to be the only way in growing one's faith. As you may know, there are many charisms such as the Cursillo, Knights of Columbus, etc. Different Catholic groups appeal to different people. Each charism has its own way in bringing people to know God and be reconciled with him. Each charism has its own way to teach 'Love one another as I have loved you'. Thank you for being so vocal in a weird way. Your criticism has made curious readers research more about the NCW. And as curious readers discover the rich history, personal experiences and triumphs, communion with popes since Pope Paul VI; I could go on with other gifts spawned by the NCW. As curious readers discover more about the NCW and also discover the many twisted criticisms elsewhere in the world about the NCW, these curious readers will make up their own minds. Why such violent reactions against the NCW? Why such zeal of brothers of the NCW in proclaiming the Gospel? So thanks to your deluded criticisms, you have unwittingly encouraged people to come and listen to a catechesis (San Vicente Church in Barrigada now has catechesis on Mondays and Thursday evenings). You have also unwittingly encouraged people to participate in any of the Celebrations of the Eucharist in the Catholic churches in Agat, Agana, Asan, Barrigada, Chalan Pago, Tamuning, and Ygio. (I can hear you saying again, 'There he goes again, calling the Mass a Celebration of the Eucharist.' Need i encourage you to listen to a priest's greeting at the beginning of Mass where he says 'Welcome to this Celebration of the Eucharist?') At the Celebration of the Eucharist, people will see the reverence the NCW has for the Catholic Mass. So yes, thank you for your twisted untruths. Curious readers will research and ask themselves 'What's all the fuss about?'. Why do popes since Pope Paul VI to our present Pope Francis bless this NCW charism? Thank you for helping me and others to see a positive out of your negative comments! Peace be with you! (Once again I can hear you saying to yourself, 'There they go again saying Peace be with you!' This greeting are the words that Jesus says to many. Look it up in the Bible.) Matthew 28:19-20 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Dear Anonymous at 11:08 am,
DeleteThis only goes to show that you did not listen to the catechesis. Nowhere in the catechesis did the NCW every say there are no priests, no altars, and all the things you mentioned.
You stated that I did not deny those points? Apparently, you do not understand when I say:
"Correction......you mean Chuck White (who has never been in the Way) preaches what the NCW supposedly teaches. If you really want to know what the NCW teaches, you would either listen to the catechesis or to the homilies of the RMS priests rather than listening to Chuck White."
Do you really need everything to be SPECIFICALLY and LITERALLY spelled out for you? Where in any of my posts and comments did I ever side with what Chuck White preaches?
"This only goes to show that you did not listen to the catechesis. Nowhere in the catechesis did the NCW every say there are no priests, no altars, and all the things you mentioned."
DeletePage 51 of the 2012 edition of Volume 1 of the catechetical directory:
"In Christianity, there is neither temple, nor altar, nor priests".
You are either a liar or are simply ignorant. In either case, you should cease.
Dear Anon at 4.04pm
Delete"And you will say to yourself, there they go again with 'we pray for you'. What is wrong with a sincere prayer for you?"
No I won't. I pray for you too - all of you that have been caught up in this error. Why would you assume that only NCW members would pray for their interlocutors? Another example of idolatry of the NCW I suppose.
"The NCW is a fruit of the Holy Spirit"
What? Here, let me assist you. Firstly the "fruits" of the Holy Spirit are thus:
charity
generosity
joy
gentleness
peace
faithfulness
patience
modesty
kindness
self-control
goodness
chastity
Do you see the NCW in that list?
Now, suppose you mean that oft repeated scriptural passage "by their fruits shall you know them". I'm pleased to report to you that that phrase is not referring to numbers in seminaries or how many followers you can bus in to an event. It is a reference to those same fruits of the Holy Spirit previously mentioned.
So, if you don't see kindness, gentleness, goodness, modesty, joy etc in the communities (or in your catechists or priests) then you can be sure the Holy Spirit is not involved.
"Why such violent reactions against the NCW?"
Because it is essentially a Judeo-Masonic caricature of the Church.
"Why such zeal of brothers of the NCW in proclaiming the Gospel? "
Because they are prepared and persuaded by a certain type of existential language, by the threat of being isolated, by the fear of rejecting God's call (even if that is only something the catechists are taught to say), or the fear of disappointing someone. Once you're in, its not so easy getting out - particularly if you're a priest, seminarian, mission family, catechist, responsible or co-responsible.
You are very welcome Anon. I sincerely hope more people do go to the catechesis, and do ask more questions. They will quickly find out what the NCW make of questions, or of an inquiring mind. If they're not "invited" to shutup, they might be invited to take on some responsibility in the community. That should keep 'em quiet for a bit.
God's peace be with you, friend.
Dear Anonymous at 4:53 pm,
DeleteThis is what Kiko stated in full. Please be honest here and not only quote half of Kiko's statement:
"in Christianity there is no altar", which is " why we can celebrate the Eucharist on a suitable table and we can celebrate in a square, in the countryside or wherever it is suitable. We don't have a particular place where exclusively we should celebrate our worship."
Now, this is what Pope John Paul II stated:
" I have been able to celebrate Holy Mass in chapels built along mountain paths, on lakeshores and seacoasts; I have celebrated it on altars built in stadiums and in city squares... This varied scenario of celebrations of the Eucharist has given me a powerful experience of its universal and, so to speak, cosmic character. Yes, cosmic! Because even when it is celebrated on the humble altar of a country church, the Eucharist is always in some way celebrated on the altar of the world. It unites heaven and earth."
Kiko's teaching is aligned with Pope John Paul II who believes that the Eucharist can be celebrated everywhere. Kiko also stated that the Eucharist can be celebrated everywhere. You purposely left out the part where Kiko said that the Eucharist can be celebrated in a countryside or places that are suitable.
The temple is also everywhere because our bodies are the temple of the Lord. The priests are also everywhere because we are the common priesthood. As usual, you deliberately leave things out so you can manipulate others into seeing it your way.
Dear Anonymous at 5:10 pm,
DeleteThe fruits are also those who do the will of God:
Matthew 7:20-21 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
The Pope said that the NCW is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Dear Diana at 10.28.
DeleteIts quite funny. Did they actually show you the book this time? You have quoted from page 52. My quote was a little before that on page 51. I'll repeat it for you:
""In Christianity, there is neither temple, nor altar, nor priests".
Maybe if you ask very nicely they'll let you have a look at that bit too.
In any case, Kiko wasn't speaking about the altar in the quote you posted. He was actually speaking of the "temple" or a place of worship.
My original quote was more accurate, as it shows that the NCW deny the altar, the priest and the "temple".
You must be very pleased that they thought it was ok to show you that little bit though!
Dear Anonymous at 11:19 am,
DeleteThe difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics read a sentence in view of what the entire message in the Bible is proclaiming while Protestants only look at the sentence alone, the way you just did. In other words, to understand the book, you look at it as a whole and not only page 51. We do the same thing with the Bible.
Yeah, I've read the whole. And been to the catechesis.
DeleteAnd yes, its no surprise that you make the argument that you do. Kiko himself said in the "Introductory note" (which, interestingly, is dated February 2 1999??? - this being the introductory note for a book supposedly "corrected" by the Vatican and approved for publication more than ten years later):
"what is involved here is an existential language whose truth is not to be found in the individual phrase but in the general context"
In other words - "truth" is whatever I tell you it is.
Its a good thing the Church rejects that form of epistemology.
Dear Anonymous at 3:23 pm,
DeleteWhat truth is there when you mislead others to only look in one page and ignore the rest of the book?
Dear Diana, I'm quite happy to discuss the entire book, or books if you like. However, it wouldn't be a very productive conversation if you aren't able to read it yourself.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:00 pm,
DeleteOnce a person has made up their mind about the book, this discussion would only go around in circles.
I agree. You are totally inflexible and resistant to the truth. It would get nowhere.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:38 am,
DeleteWhat you perceive and proclaim as "Truth" has not defeated Kiko Arguello and the NCW. It has not changed anything. The NCW still stands.
Vice and sin are still committed.
DeleteThe Mormons and protestants continue to spread heresy.
The radical Islamists continue to rape, murder and pillage.
Politicians still lie.
And yes, Kiko Arguello and the NCW continue as if there is no problem with the NCW.
I guess you must think all of these come from God, because the "truth has not defeated" them?
I prefer to think that faith and reason can sort the good from the bad, and whether or not something "still stands" is not sufficient proof of its goodness, truth or beauty.
Evidently, you think differently.
Dear Anonymous at 1:23 pm,
DeleteYou can find my response in the following weblink. You have a post of your own:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/02/hospital-for-sinners.html
"Neo" which means "New" in Greek......
ReplyDeleteI believe Pope Francis specifically said "new cathecumenate" to distinguish this rally for a new instruction, new cathecumenate, for couples contemplating marriage apart from the Itinerary known as the NCW.
ReplyDeleteAs you say the NCW is not unknown to the Holy Father and this intelligent man is known to say exactly what he means to say.
"The Pope’s task, the task of Peter, is to confirm his brothers in the faith. Thus, you too wanted by this gesture to ask that the Successor of Peter confirm your call, support your mission, bless your charism. And today I CONFIRM YOUR CALL, I SUPPORT YOUR MISSION, AND I BLESS YOUR CHARISM..." This is what Pope Francis said to the neocatechumens last March
ReplyDeleteWe believe what the Pope says. And you?
to the NCW
ReplyDelete"have the utmost care to build and to preserve the communion within the particular Churches in which you will work" ~Pope Francis.
So What happened Guam?
Dear Anonymous at 11:17 pm,
DeleteThe NCW remained in communion with the Archbishop just as Pope Francis said. I believe the question is what happened to YOUR communion with the local Vicar of Christ?
Please write about how Kiko exorcised the devil in China
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:11 am,
DeleteKiko has never been to China.
http://shanghaiscrap.com/2010/03/italians-painting-byzantine-icons-in-shanghai/
DeleteInsider, huh?
Dear Anonymous at 3:52 pm,
DeleteI stand corrected. However, I do not see any exorcism performed there by Kiko. Kiko was also not the only one working on the Byzantine painting. According to the weblink below:
"The parish priest, Fr. Joseph Lu, who had recently learnt of the Byzantine style of painting, with the approval of Mons. Alyoisys Jin Luxian, entrusted the renewal of the apse and the presbytery to Francisco (Kiko) Arguello a Spanish painter, and Mattia Del Prette, an Italian architect. The new altarpiece was finished on March 21, 2010 with the blessing of the artists at a Mass presided by the Auxiliary Bishop of Shanghai, Mons. Joseph Xing. Later, on June 13, 2013, the church was reopened with a Mass presided by Mons. Aloisyus Jin Luxian."
http://www.sfx.sh/sample-page/
Now, what is this about an exorcism?
This is so funny. JW just cannot hold its tongue and is spilling all its Church-hating and Pope-hating sentiments. Lol. It is really like being forgetful, not dressing up properly and unintentionally showing your buttock to the people behind you. Gosh!
ReplyDeleteNow, they are spilling their beans about Pope Francis, as well:
Tim January 29, 2016 at 1:47 PM
"But today we live in a politically correct Church which has little courage and has identified “climate change” as man’s greatest enemy. And Satan laughs."
Hello-oh, it was Pope Francis who talked about climate change! He identified the problem that burdens humanity on the long run. It was him, not some unknown church official, but the head and number one leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis himself!
Is it really Satan who is laughing? Is he who is so delighted by Pope Francis that he amuses himself with no end? Or is it Tim Rohr who wants to ally the Pope with Satan?! Wow! This is crazy stuff from the rock bottom level, Tim! You should not hate that much the Church and should not hate that much the Pope! How can you assert that Pope Francis is the ally of Satan?! Shame on you!
In fact, Pope Francis is an environment conscious Pope and he has a very firm standing on protecting the creation of God in the form as it is today. Or in even better condition, closer to the original, right after the Creation!
We know that there are people all around the globe who hate Pope Francis for his standing. Even among Catholics there are many who dislike him. They want Pope Francis to go, to leave his office as Pope Benedict did. What an ugly and intolerable branch of wicked people who cannot bear the truth!
JW has joined them now! Tim Rohr, Chuck White, Frenchie, the CCOG and the LFM, etc. are all one in this dirt. They talk a talk but walk a different walk! They fake a zeal toward the church but want to destroy it and its Pope. Now, they are starting to show their true colors. Ouch!
Lord, have mercy on us, bless us, your Church and our Pope, protect us from the snares of the devil.