In my last post, the sources I have cited have nothing to do with the Neocatechumenal Way. Catholic Exchange website is a Catholic website, which also says that the dining room table is an altar and that the family is like the Catholic Church. Just as the father is the head of the household in the human family, so is the Pope and Bishops the spiritual head of God's household for they are Christ's representative on Earth. Pope John Paul II also stated that the Eucharist is a nuptial sacrament and likened to the union between man and wife.
Scott Hahn (a Catholic convert) found this richness in the Catholic faith as he was studying the word "covenant". When he was a Protestant, he only scratched the surface of Catholicism. After reading the Baltimore catechism, it took him even deeper into the Catholic faith. Most of us born and baptized into the Catholic faith do not even get that far into understanding our faith. According to Scott Hahn:
In the Protestant world the idea of covenant is understood practically as synonymous with or interchangeable with contract. When you have a covenant with God, it's the same as having a contract. You give God your sin; He gives you Christ, and everything is a faith-deal for salvation.
But the more I studied, the more I came to see that for the ancient Hebrews, and in Sacred Scripture, a covenant differs from a contract about as much as marriage differs from prostitution. In a contract you exchange property, whereas in a covenant you exchange persons. In a contract you say, "This is yours and that is mine," but Scripture shows how in a covenant you say, "I am yours and you are mine." Even when God makes a covenant with us, He says, "I will be your God and you will be my people." After studying Hebrew, I discovered that 'Am, the Hebrew word for people, literally means, kinsman, family. I will be your God and father; you will be my family, my sons and my daughters, my household. So covenants form kinship bonds which makes family with God.Scott Hahn's Conversion
During our word celebration, "covenant" was also one of the words the members of the NCW came across. We became part of God's divine family through our baptism. The seed of faith was planted in us in our baptism. But God calls us to live out our faith and not just simply to know our faith.
Like in any family, one can see sibling rivalry. One can even see a glimmer of this sibling rivalry among the Apostles. Like in the story of the prodigal son, the elder son gets jealous when he learns that the father throws a feast for the younger son. The elder son perceives that the father loves the younger son more than him. So, it is with Guam's clergy. Some of the non-neo priests perceive that the Archbishop loves the RMS priests more than them. Nevermind the fact that an invitation was extended to all members of the clergy to attend the special Mass. Like in the story of the prodigal son, the elder son did not attend the feast even at the father's invitation.
As I said in my previous post, the division is in the clergy. Let the clergy resolve their problems without any help from the laity. Already, the case of Father Paul and Monsignor James was sent to Rome; therefore, we (the laity) should allow Rome to do their job.
There are many people who are not in the NCW attending the parish Mass, and they have seen with their own eyes that some members of the NCW also attend the Sunday Mass. People who are in the Way also attend the Sunday Mass because they chose to build up their parish through voluntary work in singing in the parish choir, in serving at the altar as altar servers, Eucharistic ministers, or Lectors. Others serve the parish in other ways by cleaning the parish, maintaining parish grounds, and other voluntary services.
The attitude of RMS is problematic as they think in their minds that they are better than the local priests. Since they have the backing of the Archbishop, they fill entitled to everything in the diocese.
ReplyDeleteEven the religious in the island have issues with the NCW because of the Archbishop's good graces and favoring them over and above the others.
Dear Anonymous at 1:08 pm,
DeleteWhat attitude are you referring to? They remain quiet. Father Luis never said anything bad about the local priests. He simply resigned from his position as pastor. Father John also never said anything bad about the local priests. When allegations came up about him, he left. So, what attitude are you referring to?
Dear Diana, nice try. But this would not make the "theology of 3 altars" more than a half-baked idea. Altar is something reserved for worshiping God. Eating and making love is still not the same as worshiping God, is it?
ReplyDeleteI do like Scotty, really, especially that he had a Protestant education and now he is serving the Catholic channel. Just like Fr. Corapi used to serve the same channel, but apparently not the church. You may know his story.
Scotty became a true media celebrity, making a lot of money on his conversion. Good for him. The only thing I do not like in him is when he tries to tell me how should I be a good Catholic. Come on, more humility please! What a chutzpah from a former Protestant!
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteAs I said, the sources I cited came from legitimate Catholic websites and from the Pope. Furthermore, the Catechism of the Catholic Church describes the altar also as a table where people eat. According to the Catechism:
CCC 1182 ...... The altar is also the table of the Lord, to which the People of God are invited. In certain Eastern liturgies, the altar is also the symbol of the tomb (Christ truly died and is truly risen).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church also described the altar as the cross of Christ (See CCC 1182 and 1366).
Scott Hahn discovered on his own that a covenant is not a contract at all......something which many Catholics do not realize. How many Catholics actually believe that it is a contract? It was during our word celebration when members of the NCW came to realize that God's covenant with us was never a contract.
Dear Diana, I like your point about covenant and contract. But I don't think people care much about the distinction. Covenant is a religious term and contract is a business term. So that is about it.
DeleteYou don't need to praise Scotty for me. He is a sympathetic guy. But he should never preach to a Catholic. Come one, be a little humble, please. Father Corapi was also a media celebrity at the EWTN. Look what became of him! He did not lead the life he was preaching. What a blunder from a prestigious Catholic television channel! I don't say Scotty is the same. But it never hurts to be cautious with these overblown media celebs.
I still haven't seen any direct reference to the "3 altar" idea from authentic sources. What you show is all vague and indirect. not pronouncing the same term you use. Are you telling me next time that the tomb of the Lord, as an altar, is the same as the marriage bed in the bedroom? Wow, this would really be skirting sacrilege! The Eucharist being a nuptial sacrament, as John-Paul II said, is something very spiritual. It is not referring to the carnal act between man and woman.
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteI see, so it is the third altar that you have a problem with. You no longer have a problem with the second altar because a Catholic website also called the dining table an altar? Then I suggest you read Theology of the Body by Christopher West. Pope John Paul II called the Eucharist a "nuptial" sacrament and linked it to the marriage between man and wife.
Perhaps, you need to read more about the Sacrament of Marriage and the Eucharist before you can fully comprehend why the marriage bed is also called an altar. If you cannot comprehend the union between man and wife, how can you comprehend the union between Christ the bridegroom and the Church the bride?
Diana, you do not know what you talk about. Am I the one who cannot comprehend the union between man and woman? Gosh, thanks. I haven't had that kind of hard laugh for a long, long time! Perhaps ask Fr. Corapi from the EWTN about union between man and woman? He does have the first hand experience. Uhh.
DeleteI do have problem with your dining table, as altar, as well. I told you why and you were not able to bring up anything new in this regard. So why don't you just turn the page and admit that this idea of the "3 altars" needs some serious work?
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteMilk is given first, and the meat will come later when one is ready for it. A child learns to crawl first before they can stand up to walk. The Catholic website I cited along with Pope John Paul II's quote is enough. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that an altar is a table, a tomb, and the cross of Christ. :-)
Diana, for the sake of Pete, an altar is a table, yes, among others, but not all tables are altars! Capisce?
DeleteDear grow up in faith,
DeleteDid I say that all tables are altars? The only table I said was an altar was the dining room table where the family eats together as a family, and I have the Catholic Exchange Website to support me on that.
ReplyDeleteWell said Diana. Fr. John Fr. Luis Fr. Pius. They have not said anything bad about local priests. They are not the cause of division. On this blog I don't read of Fr. John Fr. Luis, Fr. Pius writing negative comments. They were insulted remained silent. Not so in Junglewatch. One particular priest Junglewatch who rants out comments on NCW clergy. That priest I'm told is not even from here. Yet I know local priests encourage that priest not from here to comment Junglewatch. So don't blame NCW communities for division. Division is local priests. They pay other people to write comments then Tim Rohr publishes.
The Laity Forward Movement is being aggressive visiting parishes that has the NCW to pass out their leaflets to the parishioners.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:19 pm,
DeleteActually, that has nothing to do with being aggressive. Rather, it indicates their desperation! :-) As Tim Rohr admitted in his own blog:
"The problem that we've had so far is that not enough of the laity are making their opposition known outside this blog. While to us the complaints may seem long and loud, the reality is that only a handful of people appear publicly to show their opposition."
As I said from the very beginning, their numbers are very very very few! The jungle tried to make themselves like they are a huge number by dividing themselves into two more groups: CCOG and the Laity Forward Movement. However, they were the same people who started in the jungle to begin with.
Furthermore, the Laity Forward Movement did not get Father Edivaldo's permission to pass out those pamphlets. As a rule, every person or group who wishes to distribute or sell something to the parishioners should FIRST get permission from the parish priest. They did not do that because they already knew that Father Edivaldo would not give them permission. Therefore, they imposed themselves on the parishioners of Chalan Pago. Why? Because they were desperate. No matter how many pageviews the jungle has, they do not have the support of the majority of Catholics on this island. Their disrespectful tactics have even turned off some of their own members.
They showed disrespect toward Father Edivaldo. However, Kudos to Father Edivaldo in his humility. He humbled himself and did not say anything bad toward them. The fliers of LFM, on the other hand, said something bad about Father Edivaldo. So, as anyone can clearly see in this case, it is the LFM who is causing the division in the laity.
I was there at the Chalan Pago Mass when LFM passed out those leaflets to the parishioners. If anyone there was causing trouble, it was the Laity Forward Movement. The church grounds is not a public place for anyone to conduct protests. All protests should be done in public areas.
DeleteFolks, this is getting serious. The JW puppet master admitted what he is doing:
Delete"Tim January 17, 2016 at 2:55 PM
The idea is to make a loud bang so the whole world can see and hear the monstrosity of evil that Kiko Arguello through the likes of Pius the Putrid has set upon the world. Believe me, we are accomplishing far more here than Rome could or would ever do. So join us. Make some noise."
All he wants is making a loud noise and creating a monstrous scandal! Exactly as Diana pointed out, he is becoming so desperate that he would do anything, literally anything, to get some media attention. It looks like, he would not even refrain from inciting lawless activity against the church!
Now, he sends his puppet minions to provoke violence in the churches. I quote from the Laity Forward flier: "Rid the practices of NCW out of our churches!" This is their demand, a direct call for violence, folks. By simple logic: you can rid of your own practices peacefully, but you cannot rid of the practices of others without violence! They want to rid of the practices of the NCW that had been repeatedly approved by the Popes and the Curia. Getting rid of us cannot be done without force, without violence, because we will stand up for our rights!
That is why this is becoming serious, folks. Inciting violence based on religion is against the constitution! Any anti-constitutional activity must be reported to and monitored by the police. This gang is truly approaching a law enforcement action.
I am deeply surprised and saddened that former Senator Bob Klitzkie would allow his wife to be associated to this kind of lawless activity.
If Fr. Edivaldo, RMS, Fr. Pius, AAA, et all, have nothing to hide, then what would it matter the attempts of the LFM. The NCW recruits on the church grounds during and after mass, they sale bake goods after mass for their WYD fundraising, why can't LFM do their thing on church grounds? Because it's anti-neo? YUP
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 9:19 pm,
DeleteThe NCW followed the rules. We obtained the permission of both the parish priest and the Archbishop. LFT never obtain any permission from Father Edivaldo but went ahead and had their protest on private grounds. As Anonymous 8:56 pm pointed out....all protests should be conducted on public areas. It was LFT who published on their pamphlet something bad about FAther Edivaldo. Father Edivaldo did not even say anything bad to LFT who had no business being there in the first place.
Anon. 9:19 pm. I am Anon. 8:56 pm. I got LFT pamphlet while I was at Chalan Pago church. This is what your pamphlet said about Fr. Edivaldo, "Are you going to wait for the next Father Luis or Edivaldo, to put the move on your daughter or granddaughter?"
DeleteThis is slander. Who did Fr. Edivaldo put the move on? Fr. Edvigado came out and didn't say anything bad to LBT, while you were passing out this slander about him. The folks in Chalan Pago are not stupid. I happen to like Fr. Edivado's homily even though I don't walk in the Neo. I always attend the 10:00 mass cuz he talks alot about kids and the family. He's not boring.
The Laity Forward group needs to take a step backwards and rethink their approach. They cannot just show up at the Parishes and pass out flyers without the permission of the Pastor. They have no respect. For one to even compare this to the Announcement of Catechesis is ridiculous. First off, the NCW is usually requested by the Pastor with permission of the Bishop to begin the catechesis in the parish. So the invitations that are passed out have the total pre-authorization of the Pastor.
DeleteAnyways, what did Father Edivaldo or Father Luis do? Does Tim have the response to his FOIA from GPD on the Father Luis case? Wala no Tim?
Yes Diana, this is a clergy problem. What are the non-NCW priests doing to control this situation? nothing! Instead they are the ones promoting the anti-Archbishop rhetoric in their parishes. They have to stop. Dont they realize what they are doing?
I have my info waiting at the tip of my tongue about their favorite priest. If they want it then they will dare to make the first move. Game on!
-Jokers Wild
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteI do not live in Guam, but navigated to your blog because it was discussing the alterations to the Roman Rite Mass in the NCW- which is of great concern to me.
I was also interested in Junglewatch, but find myself weaning myself from their site, not because they are wrong in trying to correct what is wrong, but because of how they express themselves. (I must add that NCW members can also be uncharitable in what they say.) One would not speak that way in the presence of Jesus. However, I sense and understand the exasperation in trying to right the wrongs that they see. I, too, feel some of that exasperation; I've been trying to bring attention in my city to the church that insists that the alterations in NCW's Mass have been approved. I've also been trying to spread legitimate information as to why these alterations are illicit on your site. It used to be that you printed almost everything that I sent. But, recently, I have had 10 comments that were not printed on your blog. Why not? These comments were mainly "new" factual findings. I will try to warn you charitably that those, especially leaders, who refuse to give all the truth, or slyly manipulate the truth to accommodate their "own" agenda, will have a greater accountability to God.
Listen carefully to what the Popes have said about the celebration of Mass. Listen also carefully to what Cardinal Sarah (Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments)is saying in regards to liturgical abuses.
Re your "There are many people who are not in the NCW attending the parish Mass," - these people most likely see the good in the NCW and figure that everything about the NCW is good. However, liturgical abuse (unauthorized additions and deletions) is never good. (It is a sad case of the blind leading the blind and both falling into the pit "of error.")
None of us are blameless; we all sin. But, the ONE BODY OF CHRIST, must correct one another if we love one another. Peace.
Dear Anonymous at 1:09 am,
DeleteThe NCW is already aware of those same old arguments. And I do not know how many times we have to tell you that the Vatican gave the NCW permission to celebrate the Mass the way we do. You can show us the books all you want, but we are not going to be disobedient to the Vatican who gave us permission. Therefore your only recourse of action is to go to the Vatican and find out the truth from them.
Whatever situation you have with the NCW in your country is different than on Guam. You want to correct the Mass of the NCW. That is not the situation we are facing here. The jungle wants to destroy the NCW and remove the Archbishop at whatever cost even if they have to lie about it. This has nothing to do with correction.
To Diana, (from Anon.l09)
ReplyDeletere yours of 725 am
I don't deny you have a difficult problem in Guam (I'm praying Mercy will prevail); however, the situation with the Neocatechumenal Way Mass with all its additions and deletions is very similar in this country.
I, unlike the Jungle, believe the NCW Mass,(after the prior intervention of the Pope,) is a valid Catholic Mass, albeit still with many illicit additions and deletions. In late 2011, a NCW Seminarian told me, face to face, that the NCW was "soon" to get the permission for all the alterations in the NCW Mass - even the way they do Communion, after I had voiced my concern that these alterations did not have the needed written permission (recognitio)from the Pope. This was after the NCW had previously led erroneously their members and potential members to believe that the permission had come with the approved Statutes of 2008.
That "soon" came in January 2012. But, they did not get the "expected" approval of the deletions and additions in the NCW Mass by Pope Benedict XVI. They still had to abide by the approved Liturgical Books.
Any verbal permission the NCW may have received from a Bishop does not override the instructions from the Pope. It may have been prematurely accepted as valid because this is what the NCW wanted to "hear." However, because it does not coincide with the Pope's wishes, it must be dismissed as not acceptable.
Again, the Catechism says in 883, "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."
Knowing the NCW members, whose love for the Lord is immense, the correction required will not be a hardship but will be welcomed.
Peace of Christ.