At any rate, a vast majority of the priests who came were in the Way. While it is great that Father Jeff made the time and effort to attend, it is unfortunate that the other priests who are not walking in the Way were unable to attend. It definitely shows that the problem lies in the clergy rather than in the laity. Many members of the NCW were in attendance, but there were also many people from different Catholic organizations and many others who are not in the NCW. It was great to see that we were able to come together as one, holy, Catholic Church. Those who oppose the Archbishop and the NCW are only few in number.
Many of the local priests could certainly learn from the lay people who came out that evening to celebrate Mass together as God's family. We certainly need to pray for those priests who are unable to forgive and continue to hold grudges and envy in their hearts. We need to pray for all our priests.
The RMS priests are indeed Catholic priests.
- On April 22, 2015, Pope Francis ordained 10 men from the Remdemptoris Mater Seminary into the priesthood.
- On November 27, 2015, Pope Francis appointed Father Hecotr Vila, the Rector of Toronto's Redemptoris Mater Seminary, as the new Bishop of Whitehorse. So, there is now a Bishop who was formed in the Redemptoris Mater Seminary.
- The Way has the blessings of four Popes since it has started in the 1960s. The Pope is the Successor of the Apostle Peter and the Vicar of Christ. The Way is not excommunicated in any way, but a part of the Catholic Church nor has it ever been declared a heretic by the Pope.
- The Statutes of the Way was approved by the Holy See in 2008, and the Catechetical Directory was approved in 2011.
- The papal Nuncio of the United States celebrated with the members of the Neocatechumenal Way in 2010, and they don't have a problem with the way the celebration was conducted (See Papal Nuncio)
- Father Neil has a Ph.D in Liturgy. In his letter, he stated that the Way is not violating the liturgy. (See Father Neil's Letter). Those who feel that Father Neil is incorrect are only questioning his credentials. If you think you know better than Father Neil, then FIRST show us your credentials.
You need to read Father Neil's letter. The 2008 Definitive Statute....“the neocatechumens receive [Communion] standing, remaining at their place” (art. 13 #3).
ReplyDeleteNCW is a movement that divides catholic parishes, families, friends.
ReplyDeleteWe will persist until the movement is dead on Guam.
Blood of Guam our native sons daughters will rise against NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 8:43 am,
DeleteWhat comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be destroyed. You would only be fighting against God. And when you fight against God, you will lose. Some,of the native sons and daughters (such as my family) are walking in the Way. The problem was never in the laity, which is the reason for the lack of support in CCOG and the jungle. The problem is in the clergy.
Doesn't the NCW boast about the amount of clergy they rapidly produce? Thank you Diana for clarifying that the "problem is in the clergy"....
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:38 am ,
DeleteActually, it was Pope Francis who was impressed with the number of priests the NCW was producing.
You're such a fool Diana to say the pope is impressed with the amount of NCW production of priest. It's like a fast food restaurant with a drive up order. As quick as you can order a priest, they can ordain one within 2yrs. Now that's FAST.... And yea, that is a really big problem with the clergy today.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:46 pm,
DeleteFor your information, an RMS priest is ordained at least within 8 years. Some take longer.
"other priests who are not walking in the Way
ReplyDeleteThis phrase worries me. If the NCW claims to be a means of Catholic Christian formation; an adult post-baptismal catechesis, why on earth should there be priests who are "walking in the way". I have no objection to priests ministering to particular groups, but the NCW is not an order or an association but rather is intended to bring members to a deeper understanding of their baptism, faith and life.
But priests receive the grace of ordination and are designated as pastors for the people. They should not need to be "walking in the way" and what is more, when they do, the authority, grace and leadership of the pastor is undermined. Pastors should lead the flock, not be a part of it.
You then go on to extol the NCW and claim how it has been endorsed (presumably in you mind - entirely endorsed) by the Church.
You conveniently ignore the facts that:
1. Only one pope has ever celebrated Mass with the NCW as pope, in the fifty plus history of the sect.
2. The catechetical directory remains secret and therefore there is doubt about what the Vatican actually approved, and whether the NCW actually use what was approved for publication.
3. The NCW conduct a separate, (semi) private Mass, with peculiarities that have not received public endorsement by the Vatican. In the contrary, the NCW's own Statutes contradict the claim the special verbal permission has been given to the NCW to do what they do.
4. The NCW creates division virtually everywhere it goes.
5. Kiko is an idol to NCW members. And the "community" itself becomes an idol.
6. The catechists/leaders of the NCW supplant the Bishop in the operational hierarchy of the NCW.
7. The catechesis of the NCW, rather than deepening the members' sense of their own baptism, implicitly denies baptismal grace and describes even the baptised member as being a "slave of sin and the devil", of having "nothing good in you - only selfishness" etc.
8. Many, many people are hurt by the violations of the NCW
9. Whether there is one liturgical rite or fifty is beside the point. The NCW can only claim to be Catholic insofar as it sticks to what it is lawfully allowed to do. If it wilfully disobeys or perseveres in actions outside its lawful permissions, it is not Catholic, and it puts the souls of its members at risk. The NCW is given endorsement as long as it observes the rubrics of the Latin rite - not other rites. But it does not, and it does not even deny that!
10. While a lay person does not have a right to officially pronounce the NCW as heretical, a lay person has every right to question whether or not the NCW behaves and appears consistent with their (well-formed) Catholic sense. If it does not, they are obliged to charitably seek its reformation.
Dear Anonymous at 12:04 pm,
Delete1. That is true that only one Pope has celebrated Mass with the NCW as Pope. Nevertheless, Pope Benedict is also included because we are referring to the same person and not a DIFFERENT person.
2. When the Vatican approves of the directory, there should be no doubt about it. The NCW is also in Rome, and they teach their catechesis publicly. The fact that it is being taught publicly is evidence that the NCW is not keeping it a secret. The Vatican has a copy of the catechetical directory. Therefore, Rome is not ignorant of the catechesis that the NCW teaches.
3. The Mass is not separate nor private. In fact, people who are not members of the NCW have attended the Eucharist with us.
4. Division is caused only by sin. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they created a division between themselves and God. In the same way, the priests who disobeyed and oppose the Archbishop created the division between themselves and the Archbishop. Those who follow the Archbishop regardless of whether they are in the NCW or not are not divided.
5. Kiko is not an idol. The NCW does not even hang up pictures of Kiko in the celebrations or in their homes. We do not even say prayers to Kiko.
6. The Catechists must obey the Archbishop because they were appointed by him.
7. The fact that we are sinners shows that we need Jesus Christ in our life. If you are no longer a sinner as you claim, them you have no need of Christ.
8. There are no violations in the NCW. These are the facts: The NCW has produced many vocations for the priesthood and religious life; it has produced mission families and itinerants willing to evangelize in all the continents, and it has brought fallen away Catholics as well as non-Christians to the Catholic faith.
9. Read the OP again. What binds the Catholic Church is not the uniformity of liturgical rites, but our baptism and our beliefs and faith in communion with the Pope. And the Pope recognizes the NCW as Catholic.
10. The lay person has no authority to dictate nor discipline the NCW. That authority lies with the Pope.
NCW presbyters cannot be considered validly ordained therefore there celebration Eucharist Is not the catholic Mass. Best not to attend a mass performed by presbyters for you only eat bread not body of Christ. Best to go kings for breakfast than a neo bread service.
ReplyDeleteDeaf Anonymous at 4:53 pm,
DeleteFor your information, Pope Francis ordained about 10 men from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary.
I don't belong to NCW as my work hours very unsociable in medical city.
DeleteHowever I have friends walking and we meet often to discuss faith .
At same time I attend parish Mass. I have friends walking friends not walking. I get on with all.
Now they are saying NCW clergy are not authentic priests . So a lot of confusion around.
There is a priest also posting on JW comments which confuse Catholics. He does not help our situation . Peace !
#10. And Tim Rohr has no authority at all
ReplyDeleteTo refer to Pope Francis ordaining priests from the NCW or elevating one of their priests to bishops (Yes they are Catholic)does not give approval for the way they celebrate Mass for their NCW communities. (Written permission, in the form of recognitio or an indult, for the changes has never been received by the NCW thereby making the changes illicit.) The permission does not exist in the 2008 Statutes or their Directories 2011 - otherwise the NCW would have quoted the pages they are found on long ago. The fact that the NCW expected the changes to be approved in January 2012 also proves that they do not exist in the Statutes of 2008 or Directories 2011 . At best, this is tolerance from the merciful Father who hopes one day they will change with proper guidance and information. The merciful Father will not break the bruised reed; he will however try to straighten them up in the areas that they are weak. The Popes though are encouraging and appreciative of the NCWs strong points - members zeal for missionary work, for love of Scripture, for upholding Humanae Vitae, professing loyalty to the Pope. (although they have been misguided by the Way into thinking their changes to the Mass are Pope-approved.)
ReplyDeleteDiana, re your comment *If you think you know better than Father Neil, then FIRST show us your credentials* - The credentials of Father Neil does not override the directive of 2005 from Cardinal Arinze on behalf of the Pope Benedict, and the letter of 2006 from the Pope himself requesting to abide by the approved liturgical books.
In regards to the NCW standing when they receive the Eucharist, they still receive - consume - Sitting Down. (The interpretation the Way gave was very sly.) Not kneeling at the Eucharistic Prayer is still a remnant of the theology of Kiko where transubstantiation did not occur.
Furthermore, the NCW say that their Mass is open to everyone which is a lie. Those of us in the Roman Rite that request Communion on the tongue are not welcomed. We are denied Communion unless we take It on the hand.
Google - Bishop Athanasius Schneider EWTN - for the interview on the reception of Holy Communion in the early church. Many other of his Youtube speeches available. Also highly recommended by Rome is his book *It is the Lord"*
Dear Anonymous at 2:10 am,
DeleteThe NCW already said that they were given permission by the Vatican to celebrate the Eucharist the way they do. If you do not believe the NCW, that is not their problem. You are always welcome in the Mass, but you need to respect our rules. This same rule applies to those who go to the Traditional Latin Mass and want to receive communion by hand.
The Early Christians including the Apostles received communion by hand. The bread they use in the Eucharist is made and does not dissolve easily in the mouth. Receiving communion by tongue came at a later date.
"You are always welcome in the Mass, but you need to respect our rules. This same rule applies to those who go to the Traditional Latin Mass and want to receive communion by hand. "
DeleteWrong. We do not need to "respect your rules" because you have no authority to have "rules". Your rules are the same as everyone else in the Roman Rite, and are clearly articulated in the liturgical books. You have only two exceptions ot this - movement of the sign of peace and the permission not to process for communion.
You continue to say that not being able to receive communion on the tongue in a NCW setting is the same as not being able to receive in the hand at the Latin Mass. This is totally incorrect and you need to be educated about it. The normal way is on the tongue and no pastor or bishop is allowed to deny anyone who wishes to receive this way. On the other hand the indult (permission) to receive in the hand can be withdrawn by the bishop or the relevant bishops conference.
The Mass in the NCW is an abuse, if only for the reason that no-one can licitly receive communion on trhe tongue.
Dear Anonymous at 10:37 pm,
DeleteAs I pointed out in the OP, there are 9 different liturgical rites in the Roman rite Mass. The newest one to enter the Roman rite is the Angelican rite. If you can only respect the rite that you celebrate in the parish, then stay there. Do not even attempt to participate in any of the other 8.
Dear Diana at 10.37,
DeleteWhat are you getting at? Are you now suggesting that the NCW is one of those nine liturgical rites?
Look, the NCW is meant to be worshipping according to the Roman Rite (the ordinary form). You do not. Therefore you violate the Church's liturgical rules deliberately and consciously. The NCW cannot be considered Catholic as long as it does so.
Dear anon, your arguments are getting repetitive and lacking any new information. Please, do not bore yourself to make the same comments over and over again. It is useless and in vain. It is killing your soul. Why don't you just stop it and pray to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:04 pm,
ReplyDeleteThe Pope recognizes the NCW to be Catholic, and that is what matters. Your mistaken opinion has no bearing. The Pope has never excommunicated the founder or any members of the Way, and he has never declared the Way to be heretical. And until the Pope does declare the Way heretical, the NCW is officially recognizes as Catholic, regardless of what you say.
It does not matter how many Rites there are in the Church. Per the Statutes the NCW is supposed to celebrate the Mass according to the Roman Rite.
ReplyDeleteKiko threatened to schism from the Catholic Church when he received criticism from the Japan Bishops.
Dear Anonymous at 4:35 pm,
DeleteWhere did you get the information that Kiko threatened to separate from the Catholic Church when he received criticism from Japan's bishops?
Dear anon, we do not care much if you do not consider us Catholics. It is your own personal problem that we are truly sorry about. But why should we care?
DeleteWe are the backbone of the Holy Mother Church, the renewal and the future of Catholic faith. If you are unable to rejoice with us then why don't you just step out of the way, shut up and be silent? Your unnecessary bitterness is taking a high toll on your soul.
You are the backbone of the Holy Mother church? How did you conclude that? Just curious.
DeleteVery simple! We are the backbone because you are not. We are telling the truth because you are not. We are led by the Holy Spirit because you are not. We are listening to the Lord Jesus because you are not. We are following God because you are not. Do you understand now?
DeleteLook in the mirror and the same can be said back. So I guess it's a stalemate, right? Yet NONE of you can even provide any documents when it comes to the TRUTH and this is just my observation from an outsiders point of view. No one religion is right. However God is the only one who can judge us. Do YOU understand that?
DeleteHa-ha-ha! This shows me so clearly how pagan you are, my friend, because you replace the Lord Jesus as the center of your faith by some 'document'! It is so foolish, also a sacrilege. My faith is about the Lord Jesus. How about your faith, my friend? Well, I could tell you what you should do with your 'document', but Diana would not allow it through, I guess. So just imagine.
DeleteFYI, the center of Catholic faith has never been any document or anything else but the Lord Jesus Christ. It was he and nobody else who was crucified on the cross for us so that he could take away our sins and the sins of the whole world! Do you understand it, my friend?
Ouch, the 'document' that was nailed to the cross by the Romans by the command of Pontius Pilate was a mockery! Yes, it was. If you knew the meaning of the acronym I.N.R.I. that was nailed above the head of our Lord on the cross then you would know it! But I'm afraid you know nothing about our faith. That is why you worship murky 'documents' as a mockery of the true faith in Jesus Christ, rather than the Lord himself. As for me and my household, we worship the Lord!
That is why we are the backbone of the Holy Mother Church and you are not, my friend!
"This shows me so clearly how pagan you are, my friend, because you replace the Lord Jesus as the center of your faith by some 'document'!"
DeleteThat's exactly what the protestants say. In fact, everything you have written could have come from a protestant apologist. As if anyone "worships" documents, you silly person.
It is not true to say (or imply) simply that Christianity is not "about laws and doctrines", but rather is "about Jesus Christ".
Of course Christianity is "about Jesus Christ". More particularly, it is about faith in Jesus Christ and love and worship of God through him. But it is also true that Christianity involves "laws and doctrines" and "authority" and the capacity to teach. For goodness sake, the NCW is full of "laws and doctrines". Everything the NCW does is regulated by Kiko and the others.
Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
To Anon at 11.37.
DeleteHave you ever heard of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? In case you haven't, allow me to inform you that it is a document. Quite a central one to Catholicism actually.
Are you aware of official Church decrees like that obtained by the NCW for the promulgation of the NCW Statutes? They are documents too. And while we're at it, the Statutes are another document.
So, you see, there are a plethora of documents that are essential to the governance of the Church and the pastoral care of the faithful. Asking for a document is not, therefore, a sin, nor is it an indication that one has forgotten about Jesus Christ and his .grace (how ironic that you speak of grace, when it is almost entirely absent from the NCW catechesis).
You might think its clever to refer to the notice affixed to the cross of Calvary, so as to imply that all "documents" must be bad, but it really just shows that you desire and are willing to deceive.
Then do as Jesus commanded you, my friend. Love God and love your neighbor. Do you love God? Do you love your neighbor? Or you just love your silly 'documents'? You decide. Please, do not shun what the Holy Spirit is telling you through your conscience.
DeleteMay God bless you, my friend, so that you start to feel His love. May He take away your inclination to prosecute others who are not under your jurisdiction (smile). Please accept that our judge is Almighty God in heaven. May He give you satisfaction of heart not by foolish hatred but by nourishing love.
Dear Anonymous at 3:18 pm,
DeleteI agree with what Anonymous 3:48 pm is saying to you, and I wonder if you even understand what he/she is trying to tell you. The Catechism of the Catholic Church and all Church documents are useless if there is no love in your heart and all you do is persecute others.
More falso dichotomies. You do that a lot you know.
DeleteEither:
You love God and your neighbor; or
You care about (silly) documents
Isn't it obvious that a person could affirm both these statements? In fact, its fairly likely that a significant proportion of Catholics would.
IN any case,
"Please accept that our judge is Almighty God in heaven."
Done. And I'll add that Almighty God is truly good, (truly) true, and truly beautiful. The abuse of logic and reason in the pro-NCW argument is neither good nor beautiful, and is certainly not true.
Dear Anonymous at 12:12 am,
DeleteA person who really loves God does not need to "indoctrinate" anyone just as the Pope says. You cannot do both. You either worship God or you worship the letter of the law.
"You either worship God or you worship the letter of the law. "
DeleteIf that were the case, there would be no trace of rules, laws or discipline in the Church. Simply another false dichotomy. It is only you people who are speaking about "worshipping" documents. Abiding by the lawful authority of the Catholic Church, as it is communicated in written documents is not just acceptable, but rather essential, if you want to be Catholic.
Dear Anonymous at 11:09 am,
DeleteThere will always be rules and laws, but the question is who do you worship. Look at the example of Pope Francis. The law clearly states that in the washing of the feet, it is the men whose feet are to be washed by the Bishop or priest. Yet, Pope Francis washed the feet of young girls and even girls who are not Christians. Pope Francis followed the SPIRIT of the law rather than the letter of the law. In one of my posts, I quoted Pope Francis as saying that the true defenders of doctrine are those who uphold the Spirit of the Law rather than its letter.
Did Pope Francis disobey the law when he washed the feet of young girls and non-Christians? The law is still there and has not been changed. But love is much higher than the letter of the law because God is love.
"For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite are followed"
ReplyDelete-not following the liturgical books of the Roman Rite but following the instructions of Kiko..makes it all "lutheran"
Dear Anonymous at 6:48 am ,
DeleteWe follow both the approved liturgical books and the Pope's instructions. If you feel the NCW is in violation, then write your letter of complaint to the Vatican. I cannot stress that enough. Simply write your letter and wait for their response, but do not dictate or FORCE the NCW to follow you.
Not following the command of love of Jesus Christ but following the command of hatred of the devil makes you all non-Christian.
DeleteWhy do you hate our communities? We have never hurt you or caused pain to you. We bring you the sunshine of the Gospel. Why do you hate us?
"Why do you hate our communities? We have never hurt you or caused pain to you. We bring you the sunshine of the Gospel. Why do you hate us?"
DeleteExcuse me while I choke on my coffee. Gasp - you bring the "sunshine of the Gospel" huh? Which is why you're all so miserable?
Try to understand this. For those who love Jesus Christ and his Church, inventing theology to manipulate the faithful; inventing rubrics of the Mass for the purposes of strengthening a cult; describing Mass going Catholics as infantile, juridical, Judases, servants of the devil etc etc.
All of these "hurt and cause pain". Each time you do what you do, while claiming it is a holy thing, you harm the Church and give offense to actual Catholics.
Dear Diana - RE your jan 11, 701 am
ReplyDeleteAccording to Catholic News Agency, Kiko, upon the 2010 approval of the 13 volumes of the NCW Directory (finally revised and corrected by Rome), said: "it has been revised by the Holy See and completed. It's correct. This is from the Church."
"The Directory," he said, "will be very important because now a parish priest who says something, we can say, "Look Father, What it says here on page 427, this was approved by the church." AND
re: "Post Scriptum from Giuseppe and Claudia Gennarini (CW) 2015 (can google) - after Pope Francis commending the NCW on various areas in the first 6 points, the "7" point the Pope made, refers to CORRECTION. He apparently said: "Consult them and if necessary, CORRECT THE CATECHISTS, THE COMMUNITIES....(BECAUSE TO CORRECT IS TO LOVE...BUT CORRECT with the statutes in your hands."
Looks like Pope Francis himself has given us Neo's and Non-Neos alike the mandate to CORRECT CHARITABLY THE USAGE OF NON-APPROVED/ILLICIT DELETIONS AND ADDITIONS IN THE NCW MASS USING THE APPROVED STATUTES OF 2008.
Even Kiko states emphatically that if questioned, the NCW can show "a page number" to verify their Way. (But, to date, he has given none.)
One alteration in the NCW Mass was the removal of kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer, but take note of what Pope Benedict XVI wrote when he was Cardinal in his book *The Spirit of the Liturgy*:
"The man who learns to believe, learns also to kneel; and, a faith or a LITURGY NO LONGER FAMILIAR WITH KNEELING, would be sick at the core. WHERE IT HAS BEEN LOST, KNEELING MUST BE REDISCOVERED, SO THAT, IN OUR PRAYER, WE REMAIN IN FELLOWSHIP WITH THE APOSTLES AND MARTYRS, IN FELLOWSHIP WITH THE WHOLE COSMOS, INDEED IN UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. (PAGE 194)
One couldn't expect to see permission for the removal of kneeling in the Statutes, especially with Benedict's strong insistence of kneeling's importance in the Mass.
I pray that the Lord will bless you with courage to do the right thing.
Dear Anonymous at 4:11 pm,
DeleteWhen Pope Francis spoke those words, he was speaking to the NCW. He was not speaking to anyone OUTSIDE of the Way. So, it is the responsibility of the members of the Way to correct their catechists. You stay out of it! Your only job is to write a letter of complaint to the Vatican if you feel that the NCW is wrong.
In the same way, the clergy obviously have a problem; therefore, it is the responsibility of the clergy to resolve their own problems. The laity should stay out of it.
Furthermore, the Eastern Catholics do NOT kneel. There is absolutely no kneeling in their liturgy, and the Pope approves of it. So, this OPINION that a liturgy with no kneeling is sick......is simply your own opinion and nothing more.
it is not an opinion but a quote from Pope Benedict...
DeleteThis is ludicrous, dear anon. How could we kneel when we don't have kneelers available at our celebrations? There are some technical circumstances that you just cannot go around. The church has always been flexible about physical limitations. Please, try to understand this and think before you pour out your half baked ideas on others.
DeleteTake no offense, please, but your obsession with our way to experience and celebrate the infinite grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ is extremely alarming. It is not normal, in fact, it is an obtrusion! It is our way, okay, and not yours?! So, for your own sake, please do not make it your business to chew on it incessantly.
Sweet heavens, how much conceited you must be to think that the saving power of Jesus Christ is not about your sins, but only and always about the sins of others?! So are you the unblemished one among the sinners? Oh, come on, man! You can't be serious. Please, try to focus on the saving grace that it flowing towards you absolutely freely from the Lord!
As for me, my sisters and brothers, we are well enough to ourselves to focus on the saving grace flowing towards all believers though the communities. For this, we don't need your care are worry that you may keep to yourself! Please, wake up already. Why? This is why: the care and worry had already been paid full in precious blood by the Lord Jesus. Blessed be his name forever and ever, amen!
To anon 12:04, you fret because you expect kneelers to kneel? Did Jesus fret when he carried the cross for OUR SINS? Did He expect anyone to help Him carry that cross? So what small sacrifice could you afford to the Lord Himself without being so selfish?
Delete"It is our way, okay, and not yours?! "
DeleteThis is the problem. The Mass is not "yours" to do with what you wish. If you want to be Catholic you are obliged to be docile to the lawful authority of the Church. All we hear from you is that no-one has stopped you yet. That is not a faithful response, but rather an infantile one.
"to focus on the saving grace flowing towards all believers though the communities."
The "saving grace" you speak about is not by virtue of the communities, dear anon, but by virtue of Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary - the very thing that is re-presented at each true Catholic Mass. Not so much at the NCW gatherings, however.
Dear Anonymous at 11:19 am,
DeleteYou stated: "All we hear from you is that no-one has stopped you yet."
This is false. The NCW never said that. We have always stated that we have permission from the Vatican to practice the Eucharist the way we do. The Vatican even gave us permission to celebrate the Mass in SMALL communities, which means that we can gather in NCW gatherings. Therefore, our gatherings in these small communities is legitimate and approved by the Vatican. The fact that YOU do not want the NCW to gather together, but prefer that they celebrate in the parish Mass shows that it is YOU who go against the Vatican.
Oh-huh, anonymous, you made my day, really, giving me a big healthy laugh. Diana has told you a zillion times already that you are banging on the wrong door. If you have liturgical complaint why on earth don't you go to a liturgical authority, make your silly charges and give them a big healthy laugh, as well, my friend? We are not the liturgical authority you are looking for.
DeleteIt is much easier to whine as a coward day and night in the corner of your cage where you locked yourself in by your own choice. So just enjoy it and please never ever forget to repeat the same nonsense over and over, every day without skipping. It is obviously your only comfort and only joy in your life, so you should not deny it from yourself.
If the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is coming to us through our communities, then what do you have to do with that, my friend? Just accept your role as an irredeemable outsider who has nothing to tell us that we should care of.
You should stop and inspect your inability of focusing on the saving grace flowing towards you freely from our Lord. You worship documents and rules rather than God. One day you will have to give account of what you squander and waste today because of your unbelief.
Dear Diana at 4.41,
Deleteperhaps you can point to where I said that I prefer you don't celebrate in small communities?
I didn't, did I?
Instead, what I said relates to the disobedience of the NCW to the lawful authority of the Church as expressed in the liturgical books. Despite being instructed clearly to follow those books, you persevere in actions that are not permitted. You say that you have permission but that is obviously false, as the Church only gives written permissions, and you don't have any. If you did, there is absolutely no way it would be trumpeted from the rooftops.
You defense, in the end, in the absence of any proof of permission, is that "Rome knows what we are doing and they haven't stopped us yet". Which is to say that you claim by this some sort of tacit approval. Even if that were true, which it isn't, that is still an insufficient reason to mess with the Mass.
But you don't care. What you are intending to do in the Mass is rather different from the rest of the CAtholic Church, and so you just don't care.
Infantile and pagan.
Dear Anon at 6.37.
DeleteDiana has told us "a zillion times" that the NCW has permission from the lawful authority of the Church to make the variations to the Mass that it makes. This is a lie. Do you want to pin your soul to that lie too, dear anon? It may not be an explicit lie, but after everything that has been said, any self-respecting Catholic would want greater confidence that such a permission actually exists, rather than simply "they told us it was ok". That's just childish.
Who is the liturgical authority you mention? Do you mean perhaps the Congregation for the Divine Worship? The same congregation that sent a letter to the NCW, explaining the Pope's instructions - a letter that is still referenced in the NCW Statutes, but is essentially ignored by the NCW?
Or do you mean the Archbishop, the actual chirf liturgist of the Archdiocese, who has thrown his hat in with the NCW, ignoring his own responsibilities. An Archbishop who instead of leading the liturgical practices in the Archdiocese, is one of those that say "they told us it was ok"?
Or do you mean the Pope - who in 2006, 2010 and 2012 made special mention of the need for the NCW to follow the rubrics of the GIRM and the other liturgical books?
Instead, what have you got? You were told by your catechist, who was told by Pius, who was told by Gennarini, who was told by Kiko who was (allegedly) told by Pope Benedict, that it was fine! You must be dreaming. Obviously you simply don't care about the Mass.
ON the other hand, I'm sure you would get quite upset if any little thing that Kiko invented for the Mass was prohibited, wouldn't you? Then you'd care, dear hypocrite, my friend.
"If the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is coming to us through our communities, then what do you have to do with that, my friend?"
If the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ comes to someone through, let's say, the Baptists, does that make the Baptists right and the Church wrong?
If the "saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is coming to us through our communities", it is by virtue of the same Mass which you abuse and mock with your invented rite.
"You worship documents and rules rather than God. One day you will have to give account of what you squander and waste today because of your unbelief. "
No, I do not worship documents and rules. But it would be incorrect to believe that the Church does not have "documents and rules". In fact, if you proposed that, you would quite rightly be considered and idiot.
One day you will have to give an account of why you put your faith in a man rather than the Man-God.
Dear Anonymous at 1:27 pm,
DeleteThey also call the Archbishop a liar when he said that the RMS property is under the Archdiocese of Agana. When the Titles of Certificates were produced, many people realized that he was telling the truth. If those Titles of Certificates had not been produced, the Archbishop was still telling the truth.
At any rate, CCOG and the jungle lost many of their support and most people are now questioning the motives and agenda of CCOG and the jungle.
Dear anon, your mind is clogged by hatred and anger. It is only the Holy Spirit who could clean it anew from all the foolishness that you parrot back over and over again without thinking. For what end, my friend? You are not someone who could police and jail the faithful, even though it is your desire.
DeleteStop accusing the Way already. Stop being foolish, preoccupied and obsessed with us. It is none of your business how we walk towards the Lord.
Please, accept the facts. The Neocatechumenal Way is an itinerary of Catholic life valid for our times. Repeat this sentence spoken by St. John-Paul II. Read and repeat it a few times, until your hatred and anger dissolves and yields to acceptance. This is the only way to get peace and share in the grace of Him who came to dissolve all hatred and anger among us.
How can you utter hateful and angry words by the same mouth that is supposed to talk about Jesus my Lord?!
Dear Anonymous at 1:14 pm,
DeleteBelow is what you stated....that is if you are that anonymous person who posted on January 12, 2016 at 11:19 am:
The "saving grace" you speak about is not by virtue of the communities, dear anon, but by virtue of Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary - the very thing that is re-presented at each true Catholic Mass. Not so much at the NCW gatherings, however.
You believe that Jesus Christ is not present in our "gatherings" despite that it was the Vatican who told us that we can "gather" together. It was the Vatican who approved of these "gatherings"; therefore, the saving grace of Christ is present in all our "gatherings."
"So, this OPINION that a liturgy with no kneeling is sick......is simply your own opinion and nothing more"
ReplyDeleteActually it is taken as an excerpt from "The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
as i understand Ratzinger became somewhat of an authority in Catholic purview..
Dear Anonymous at 8:19 pm and 8:44 pm,
DeleteFor your information, we kneel before the Blessed Sacrament.
However, in receiving Holy communion, we stand. So now you are going to FORCE people to kneel when they receive Holy Communion??? According to Catholic doctrine:
"The American adaptation of the General Instruction Roman Missal in 2002 stated that “The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel.” The same document in 2010 was slightly altered to more explicitly allow for kneeling: “The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling.” Why is standing the norm? Uniformity in posture serves as a “sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the sacred Liturgy” and it “both expresses and fosters the spiritual attitude of those assisting” (GIRM, no. 42).
http://www.ignitumtoday.com/2013/10/16/to-kneel-or-not-to-kneel/
The counsel of Gamaliel to those who were madly engaged in the suppression of the truth, and persecution of the apostles and primitive saints. All their efforts thus far had failed to prevent the faithful testimony of the servants of our Lord Jesus Christ, or to intimidate them.
DeleteActs 5:38-39
38 “So my advice is, leave these men alone. Let them go. If they are planning and doing these things merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God!”
Anonymous January 10, 2016 at 1:04 PM; it is good to question but let us be civil. Be very careful with your attitude of hatred
there is no kneeling done in the NCW celebrations...
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 9:54 pm,
DeleteThat is true. In the NCW celebrations, the members do not kneel, and the Vatican is fully aware of it just as they are fully aware that Eastern Catholics also do not kneel. So what is your point?
There is no kneeling in the NCW Eucharist because they emphasize the Thanksgiving part more than the sacrificial aspect of the eucharist.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:05 am,
DeleteThe Eucharist is BOTH a sacrifice and a thanksgiving. What do you see it as........ONLY a sacrifice and absolutely no thanksgiving?
IN the NCW the Eucharist is not a sacrifice. That's the problem. The basis for this is the NCW teaching that in Christianity there is not priest, altar or sacrifice. They're all pagan things apparently.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:38 pm,
DeleteThe problem is that you have never been to the Eucharist in the NCW. If you had, you would have heard the priest say "sacrifice." In the NCW, we believe that there are two priesthoods - the ministering priesthood and the common priesthood. We believe that there are three altars. The first altar is the Eucharistic table which you find in Mass. The second is the dining table at your house where your family gathers together when they say morning prayer and have a meal. The third altar is the marriage bed. The second and third altar are linked to the first altar in the Mass.
Dear Diana, Can you explain what do you mean by "three" altars? Why is the marriage bed and dining table considered an altar? And how are these two altars related to the Eucharist in the Mass?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:58 pm,
DeleteYour questions are answered in the following weblink:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-three-altars.html
The Eucharist is both Sacrifice and Thanksgiving. NO argument there but its emphasis is NOT on the sacrifice part. Do you recite the Confiteor? When did you start reciting that part?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:05 am,
DeleteYes we do recite it.
Diana, you should join is at the friary for mass every Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThis way you will learn what the catholic faith really teaches.
Dear Anonymous at 11:43 pm,
DeleteIf you think that only the friary Mass on Sunday teaches you the Catholic faith, you are mistaken. The beauty about the Catholic faith is that one does not need to go the Traditional Latin Mass to learn Catholicism. As long as they are in a Catholic Mass, they learn Catholicism.
So are you saying that everyone attending the friary mass every Sunday have faith?
DeleteIf this is true; can they walk on water? I wanna see
Dear Diana, re your"
ReplyDelete"Furthermore, the Eastern Catholics do NOT kneel. There is absolutely no kneeling in their liturgy, and the Pope approves of it. So, this OPINION that a liturgy with no kneeling is sick......is simply your own opinion and nothing more."
This is not true. I know someone personally that belongs to a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and he says they "prostrate in adoration" of Jesus present at the Altar.
Dear Anonymous at 7:28 pm,
DeleteAccording to EWTN:
"There is no formal procedure required before attending, but the ancient principle of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" should be diligently applied. Thus a Latin Catholic who wishes to attend one of these rites should acquaint himself with the basic practices and demands of the rite and adapt himself accordingly. For example, most Eastern rites remain standing for most of the celebration and do not kneel for the consecration; a Latin should respect this tradition."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur278.htm
I rest my case!
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"
DeleteHow apt. Perhaps we can re-phrase that
"When in the Roman Rite, do as the Roman Rite does"
I rest my case.
Dear Anonymous at 12:37 pm,
DeleteThe Roman rite has 9 different liturgical rites. The same rule applies when you go from one Roman rite to another Roman rite.
Which liturgical rite does the NCW use?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:54 pm,
DeleteThe NCW mainly follows the Ambrosian rite, which is one of the 9 Roman rites.
They don't kneel at the Carmalite Mass either.
ReplyDeleteDiana, I want communion rails built in cathedral basilica.
ReplyDeleteI will pay to re design sanctuary introducing communion rails.
I want to kneel to receive Jesus.
Kneeling is a sign of respect for the Eucharist.
Communion rails need to be buit in every church. Everyone must kneel to receive Holy bread.
Dear Anonymous at 10:04 pm,
DeleteWho are you to demand that communion rails be built in the cathedral basilica? Are you the Pope?
Dear Anonymous at 10:04pm,
ReplyDeletePlease provide your name and address so that an architect or contractor can work with you for redesigning the sanctuary for communion rails. Your info is needed to send invoices for payment you so willingly have offered to pay for.
I'm curious. What would these communion rails be made out of? Concrete, metal, wood or ifil wood? Would the design include latte stones in consideration of Chamorro culture?
DeleteNo need to pay an architect, the marble columns from the former rails are still inside the Cathedral Basilica. They were removed months after AAA was installed as Archbishop of Hagatna.
DeleteThe communion rails were made of Marble and was kept under the staircase of the choir loft. I once asked why was it kept there; answer was that a prestigious family had donated it when the CB was rebuilt.
DeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDelete- Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 66-68 says:
"The desire to restore everything indiscriminately to its ancient condition is neither wise nor praiseworthy. It would be wrong, for example to want the altar restored to its ancient form of a table; to want black eliminated from liturgical colors, and pictures and statues eliminated from our churches; to require crucifixes that do not represent the bitter sufferings of the divine Redeemer; to condemn polyphonic chants, even though they conform to the regulations of the Apostolic See...This attitude is an attempt to revive the "archaeologism" to which the pseudo-synod of Pistoia gave rise; it seeks also to reintroduce the pernicious errors which led to that synod and resulted from it and which the Church, in her capacity of watchful guardian of "the Deposit of Faith" entrusted to her by her divine Founder, has rightly condemned. It is a wicked movement that tends to paralyze the sanctifying and salutary action by which the liturgy leads the children of adoption on the path to their heavenly Father."
When the Pope-approved Statutes of 2008, which take into account the history of the Eucharist from the Early Church to the present day, determine the permissions and the direction the Way must abide by, it would not be a wise move (and most likely sinful to those who realize the Mass ought to be changed)to usurp the authority of Peter. By preparing for and participating in the Kiko-styled Mass, they are perpetuating the liturgical abuses.
Dear Tim Rohr,
DeleteAccording to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
50 ...... Hence likewise it happens from time to time that certain devotions long since forgotten are revived and practiced anew. All these developments attest the abiding life of the immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ through these many centuries. They are the sacred language she uses, as the ages run their course, to profess to her divine Spouse her own faith along with that of the nations committed to her charge, and her own unfailing love. They furnish proof, besides, of the wisdom of the teaching committed to her charge, and her own unfailing love. They furnish proof, besides, of the wisdom of the teaching method she employs to arouse and nourish constantly the "Christian instinct."
61.The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity.
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-controversial-liturgy-of-way.html
Furthermore, as I keep saying, the NCW already have permission to celebrate the Eucharist the way they do. The fact that you do not believe us is not my problem.