Monday, November 9, 2015

Comparing RMS In US And Guam

The following comment was made by Annie Aguon which can be found here.:  


Pay attention, Diana. Those applying for admission in a U.S. seminary must take the TOEFL(Test of English as a Foreign Language) if English is not their native language. This includes those with RMS in the states. They must show English competency before admission to the seminary. If they don't get a passing score, they are not admitted. A passing score on the TOEFL is required for those whose native language is not English. If they haven't a good command of English, they can't understand the course lectures or comprehend the required textbooks.This is not true at RMS Guam because seminarians are admitted without a competency in English. That's why some of them take ESL classes at GCC. They would not be admitted in a U.S. seminary. Seminaries in the U.S. publish their course offerings on their website. Guam does not? Why not? In this day of advanced technology, a website is de reguer for any organization complete with all pertinent information. They won't publish it because the courses taught most likely are not in line with what the Lateran University approved.
Please answer the questions in my earlier post.
Please note: RMS seminarians in the U.S. take the TOEFL that's why I'm not concerned about them. If they're in the seminary, they've demonstrated competency in English and can succeed in their academic and theological studies.
I did not say RMS Guam does not teach academic and theological courses. It does but the caliber of the courses is dumbed down because of the lack of English proficiency. My claim is that the courses are not as rigorous as compared to the seminaries in the U.S. where all seminarians are English proficient.
Annie Aguon, PhD

This is my response:  

You stated:  "Please note: RMS seminarians in the U.S. take the TOEFL that's why I'm not concerned about them. If they're in the seminary, they've demonstrated competency in English and can succeed in their academic and theological studies."  According to the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Washington DC (the bold is mine):  
The 25 seminarians from Redemptoris Mater are among 74 men studying for the priesthood for the Archdiocese of Washington; Washington seminarians attend a total of eight different seminaries in the United States and Rome, Italy. Redemptoris Mater also is home to seven men who are studying English before beginning seminary studies. Cardinal McCarrick will ordain 12 men to the priesthood on May 27, including two men from Redemptoris Mater. 

http://www.catechumenusa.com/2013/10/archdiocese-of-washington-cardinal.html 

As you can see, out of the 25 seminarians from the RMS in Washington DC, 7 of those men are studying English before they begin seminary studies and these 7 men are also living in the seminary.  The RMS in Washington DC is their home despite that they are still in the process of learning English.  Guam is no different from the RMS in Washington DC.  You find some seminarians studying English at GCC before beginning their seminary studies, and they are also living in the seminary. Those who are not at GCC studying English are already proficient.  Some of the seminarians in RMS on Guam come from American Samoa, and they are proficient in English.  They do not need take an English course. 

Therefore, you have simply adopted the colonial mentality and attitude that the RMS in the United States mainland is better than the RMS in Guam when in actuality they practice the same thing we do here.  Before a seminarian can study at the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, he must be proficient in English.  And like the RMS in Washington DC, he also lives in the seminary.    

The only difference between the RMS in the mainland and the one in Guam is that we are the only one affiliated with the Pontifical Lateran Univerity, which is commonly known as "The Pope's University" in Rome.  What does this mean for the RMS here on Guam?  It means that the degrees bestowed on the RMS on Guam come from the Lateran University in Rome. 

Father Miguel is pursuing his doctorate in Theology at the Pontifical Latern University.  Father Edivaldo has completed his license degree in moral theology from the John Paul II Instutute for Marriage and the Family in Rome.  He also has published a book signed by Pope Francis.  Another RMS priest (I forgot his name) is also studying at the Pontifical Latern University with Father Miguel. Father Krzystof has received formation in a wide range of areas, which include Sacred Scripture, Moral and Dogmatic Theology, Canon Law, Homiletics, Church History, Liturgy, and Pastoral Ministry.  These men speak English as a second language, but they speak and read English proficiently.   

64 comments:

  1. Pay attention Diana,
    You seem to focus only on parts of my posts.
    Commendable that RMS stateside offers ESL classes on-site for those whose English needs improvement. Guam RMS should follow their example.
    They will take the TOEFL as a requirement for admission to a seminary for their academic classes. Obviously, they are not yet ready to take the TOEFL and need to improve their English ability first.
    There are some who enter Guam RMS proficient in English. I made this point in a previous post.
    At RMSB, seminarians get their academic training at St. John's Seminary and their neo formation at or through RMSB.
    RMSB does not take on both aspects of a seminarian's preparation as does Guam RMS.
    It admirable that Guam RMS has managed to to ordain presbyters who can continue their theological studies in Rome.
    You have given me an idea to investigate the original document sent by Archbishop Apuron to Rome seeking Lateran affiliation. After getting this document, I will visit RMS Guam to find out their courses, course descriptions, and faculty. I will then compare the two.
    Is the book by presbyter Edilvado available on Guam?
    Annie Aguon, PhD

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    1. Dear Annie Aguon,

      I think it is commendable that both the RMS in the US and Guam provide English classes for those who need to improve their English REGARDLESS of whether it is on-site or not. That is the proper and right thing to do. Your colonial mentality and attitude is once again showing that we in Guam should follow the USA by offering on-site English classes. The fact that the seminarians are receiving classes to improve their English is the important thing......not where the English classes are located.

      As I pointed out, even the RMS in the US have seminarians who have not yet taken the TOEFL due to the fact that they are still learning English; therefore, your statement that all RMS seminarians in the US who are in a seminary are already English proficient and have passed the TOEFL is in error. You should have visited the RMS on Guam before making such a judgement.

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    2. Dear Annie, you are welcome to get obsessed with the Neocatechumenal Way and scrutinize the education at the RMS. We are still not sure why should we focus on any part of your post? Is there any reason we should be obliged to care of what you say? Could you, please, explain this a bit? Just to make sure we understand each other. Whatever your business in this matter might be you are welcome to pursue it on your own.

      Also, whatever your finding about RMS might be, it won't have any impact on the education of our priests. Why should? These seminarians made some serious commitments of becoming priests and serve the communities. What is the reason you are unable to be glad about this? What do you think is wrong about young men choosing to serve God, dear Annie?

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    3. Are you glad about ordained Neo presbyter 29-year old Luis Camacho who broke his vows by having a sexual encounter with a 17-year old girl? Not properly formed or vetted before being accepted as a seminarian. Not a good reflection on Guam RMS or is his behavior ok with you as long as he publicly confesses before his community.
      Annie Aguon, PhD.

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    4. Dear Annie Aguon,

      It is bias and prejudice to label an entire institution on the mistake of one person. Furthermore, Father Luis Camacho was not charged with any sexual misbehavior by the Police Department. Please stick to the facts. He was charged with custodial interference. You blamed the entire RMS on Guam for the behavior of one priest. As an educator with a PhD, do you not know that the misbehavior should be blamed on the person who committed it? You judged Father Luis but you ignore the fact that Father Luis never excused his misbehavior and opted to resign.

      In the Catholic Church, there are good and bad priests. As you already know, there have been a FEW Catholic priests who sexually abused young boys. These few Catholic priests who sexually abused these young boys were also not a good reflection on the entire Church, but that does not make the entire Catholic Church evil. Would you label the ENTIRE Catholic Church as evil for the misbehavior of the few who committed these terrible acts????? It would be unfair and prejudice to do so.

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    5. "commitments of becoming priests and serve the communities."

      Ah, there it is. And all this time wwe are told they are become Diocesan priests.

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    6. Dear Anonymous at 6:27 pm,

      They are diocesan priests. They serve the Church.

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    7. Dear Annie, I have to ask you to apologize to Fr. Luis. How dare you to say he had a "sexual encounter with a 17-year old girl"? This is a slander. As a Ph.D. you should know what legal liabilities you invoke on your head when you spread slander about others.

      Fr. Luis was only charged with custodial interference. If you forgot that let me recall it to your mind.

      http://news.yahoo.com/guam-priest-resigns-arrest-custodial-interference-205440830.html

      If you have evidence otherwise, please, present it right now. Otherwise, please, withdraw your claim and apologize. It will show whether you possess a moral compass, if you do. Would you, dear Annie?

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    8. This is the problem, dear anonymous tim at 6:27. You do not think of the Church as a community of believers! Then you have a very serious problem. Because the community of all faithful in Jesus Christ is one.

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    9. To Anonymous at 7:21 pm:
      Why did he take her to a secluded beach? Why don't you ask Diana to apologize to the handicapped woman she accused of trying to disrupt the archbishop's gala? What proof had she that this was her intention? What do you have to say about her accusations? Let her present proof. Luis Camacho's behavior reflected poorly on RMS. It's not fair but it is what it is.
      Annie Aguon, PhD

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    10. "This is the problem, dear anonymous tim at 6:27. You do not think of the Church as a community of believers! Then you have a very serious problem. Because the community of all faithful in Jesus Christ is one"

      Then why did the Anonymous at November 9, 2015 at 11:23 AM say "communities" if in fact he/she meant Church? If the Church is a community - "community of all faithful in Jesus Christ is one" - "one", why the plural ("communities")? We know why. Because that person was referring to the Neocatechumenal Way "communities". Get off your high horse.

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    11. Dear Annie Aguon at 10:45 pm

      The two could be simply talking to each other. The police were there, and nothing in their report mentions anything of a sexual activity. The charge against Father Luis was custodial interference. So, let us stick to the facts in the police report and with the police officers who were actually there to witness everything. Let us not invent stories.

      As for Eileen, I am not the only one who has "reasonable cause" to keep an eye on her at the hotel. The security guard was there and saw everything. Apparently, the other protesters who entered the Hyatt Hotel did not run into much problems as Eileen did because they had the decency and common sense to stay far away from the Gala celebration. Eileen, on the other hand, was wandering too close to the area, which brought the security guard's attention.

      Father Luis' did not make any excuses for his behavior and had the good sense to resign. A psychological test is not a guarantee that a priest will not fall into sin. Priests are human too and they can commit sins, which is why we always pray for our priests.

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    12. So if they were simply talking to each other and the only charge was custodial interference, why did he resign and why his disappearance Diana?

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    13. Dear Annie, you badly failed the moral compass test in relation to your slander about Fr. Luis. It is a shame that you come here to lie about a priest and fail to apologize when caught. I feel truly sorry for you.

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    14. Check the definition of slander, Anonymous at 8:16 AM, you have no inkling of my moral compass. Diana lies continuously about Eileen but that's Ok by you, right? Luis Camacho needs no apology from me. He should apologize to the girl, her family, his Neo community, and the Guam RMS. Is he still incardinated as a Neo presbyter with the archdiocese of Agana? I hope he is getting counseling. He may better serve as a lay person. I wish him all the best in discerning his true calling which should have taken place in the 10 years he was a seminarian.
      Annie Aguon, PhD

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    15. Dear Annie, you claimed sexual encounter. You provided zero evidence. This is called slander. If you feel your moral compass is okay, then I feel even more sorry for you.

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    16. "As for Eileen, I am not the only one who has "reasonable cause" to keep an eye on her at the hotel. The security guard was there and saw everything. Apparently, the other protesters who entered the Hyatt Hotel did not run into much problems as Eileen did because they had the decency and common sense to stay far away from the Gala celebration. Eileen, on the other hand, was wandering too close to the area, which brought the security guard's attention. "
      The above quote is from Diana's post.
      Diana, did you interview the security guard to get all the information you posted about Eileen? The guard should be expecting a subpoena soon to testify in the civil suit. Or maybe he will required to do a sworn testimony, with questions posed by her lawyer. Not sure about the legal details but he better be prepared. You too, may be subpoenaed. Be sure of your "facts."

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    17. These are empty threats of lawsuits, typical Tim Rohr kind of bullying around. You won't spend any dollar on a lawsuit because you know you'll lose it big time. Unless, of course, if you want to make your lawyer rich! Lol.

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    18. Ai Adai! For cryin' out looud, are we back to this again? This you, Eileen? The guard saw your protest sign, which read "Any GALA Funds for Guam's Homeless?"  Other signs were about Fr. Paul, Mon. James, the Way, the seminary. But Eileen, your sign is about the GALA. It didn't have anything to do with past issues. The guard saw your sign protesting the GALA and saw you coming near the Gala celebration and drew the same conclusion that Diana did. The guard told you the reason he kept you out. So, get over it and go on with life.

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    19. dear Annie Aguon Phd,

      How sad that you accuse Pale Luis of a sexual crime. Very sad, wheres the hope and forgiveness in that? Youre familiar with this standard no?
      What is so sad is that you have made it so obvious that the only intel that you have is based on articles written by rohr and his cohorts. In regards to Pale Luis' case, a while back rohr threatened to get to the bottom of this by sending a FOIA request to GPD for the police report, he has yet to reveal his findings. I urge you to request from rohr a follow up report if any. Good luck because rohr found nothing. Wala! Taya! ni hafafa!
      Please use your Phd to better discern the information that you believe to be scholarly.
      Now in regards to Eileen BB, she new very well what she was trying to do. Her poor judgment got her in a deeper mess and made her look foolish. Out of all the other options to go and get some dinner she decided to support the very Hotel that allowed to host the Archbishops Gala Dinner. Out of all the restrooms available for her to use, she purposely decided to go to furthest restroom which happened to be the nearest to the Gala. Now for a lady who continues to segregate herself from anything "apuron" or "neo" she decided to eat at a "apuron" and "neo" favored hotel that evening, she also decided to wash her hands and sit on the same toilet seat that "apuron and "neo" supporters availed themselves of that same night.
      Poor thing but yes there is hope and forgiveness after all.

      -Jokers Wild

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    20. Jokers Wild,
      You seem to know a great deal about the motives of Eileen B-B.
      why don't you meet with her in person and tell her to her face what you think of her? Have you the courage to meet a woman with severe hip arthritis that causes her to use a rollator walker as needed? If afraid to meet with her do hire the same G4S guard that protected the archbishop
      and his gala from a frightening group of mostly older peaceful demonstratorswho held their demonstration from 5-6 pm the evening of the gala.
      Meet in a public place not at a secluded beach... but do meet as she wants to look directly at you as you tell her what motivates her in regards to the archbishop. She is willing to meet with you any time you say. She is very astute in reading people by looking directly into their eyes. Don't be afraid to meet with her in a public place. What say you, Jokers Wild???
      "Ellen B. or Eilleen Benavente- Bles"

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  2. 11.23. Can you tell me how someone raised in Columbia could possibly have a desire to serve as a priest in A remote packfic island which he may never have heard of in his life. You make so sense at all.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:28 pm,

      Christians do not belong to this world and know no national boundaries. A priest's allegiance to Christ takes priority over national identity. God called him to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

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    2. For instance, our Father Pius has spent many years for the New Evangelization in the Pacific. He never hesitates to do more for the Church.

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    3. Father Diego Luis de San Vitores (1627 – 1672), a member of the religious order of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits), brought Christianity to the Chamorro people in 1668. He was killed on Guam 2 April 1672 just a little less than four years after his arrival, a death that he welcomed because he would be considered a martyr in his efforts to spread Christianity.

      I see that we on Guam still do not understand. I bet his English was not that good either.

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    4. Good question, Anonymous at 12:28 PM.
      Why indeed would Harold who is from Medellin, Colombia come to the RMS seminary in Guam when there is an RMS seminary in his hometown of Medellin, Colombia? Strange...

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  3. Anonymous 11:23...the seminarians commitment is not to the communities but to the Church.
    And commitment alone won't get you far. That is why you have seminaries for formation. It is good that Annie asks for accountability of the formation, otherwise what is the point of putting up seminaries. anyone can make priests under the coconut tree.

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    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 3:24 pm,

      The problem I find with Annie is that she had already formed a prejudice and biased judgement against the RMS on Guam without even making any inquiries at the seminary. She already judged that the RMS seminarians in the United States are better than the RMS seminarians on Guam. Accountability involves being objective and fair, but not when one already has formed a pre-conceived bias against the seminary on Guam.

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    2. This is the problem, dear anonymous. You do not think of the Church as a community of believers! Then you have a very serious problem. Because the community of all faithful in Jesus Christ is one.

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  4. Diana I did not realize Father Luis resigned from the priesthood. How come that wasn't in the news?

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    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:53 am,

      It was in the news. See the weblink below:

      http://www.kuam.com/story/28548167/2015/03/18/priest-resigns-from-archdiocese-following-arrest

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    2. Luis resigned from parish . In fairness to him he did not,resign priesthood.
      One must remain open to the possibility he can amend his life and discern how he can best serve the church in his journey to salvation. Be it priesthood or married life single life he should be helped.

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    3. He resigned as pastor not as a Neo presbyter.
      Ellen B.

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    4. Dear Anonymous at 9:48 am,

      You are correct. He resigned from the parish, but not from the priesthood. Ellen B., there is no such thing as Neo presbyter. The priests who were ordained from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary are known as RMS priests.

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    5. "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive..."

      DianaNovember 10, 2015 at 10:53 AM
      Dear Anonymous at 9:48 am,

      You are correct. He resigned from the parish, but not from the priesthood. Ellen B., there is no such thing as Neo presbyter. The priests who were ordained from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary are known as RMS priests.
      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/11/comparing-rms-in-us-and-guam.html?m=1#comment-form
      ---------------------------------------------------http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/02/semantics.html?m=1

      "Another semantics that they use to divide fellow Catholics is the words "Priest" and "Presbyter." I have actually used the word "priest" in my general admonition, but no one (not even the priest) ever told me not to say "priest." When I use the word "Presbyter" in the general admonition, they also say nothing. On the other hand, the opponents of the Way insist that the word "priest" should be used.
      --------------------------------------
      Above are Diana's posts.
      Ellen B.



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    6. Dear Ellen B.

      What exactly is the contradiction do you see? There is no such thing as "Neo Presbyters" in the Catholic Church. There is also no such thing as "Neo Priests" in the Catholic Church. The correct term is RMS presbyter or even RMS priest.

      The semantics is from the jungle who cannot see that the word "Presbyter" is the Latin word for "Priest". They demand that we use ONLY the word priest. If that were the case, them why do some in the jungle use the word "Pale"?

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    7. You should know why some priests are called "Palé" if you know the Chamorro language.

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    8. Dear Anonymous at 1:03 am,

      Exactly my point! You should know why some priests are called "Presbyters" if you know your Latin language.

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  5. http://www.pul.it/pul-nel-mondo/istituti-aggregati-affiliati-e-collegati/?lang=en

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  6. Anonymous 5:55, the problem with you is Diana talked about the 'communities' (NCW) and not the Church as a community of believers, But i think it is true that RMS stateside are better prepared compared to RMS Guam as the steteside seminarians go to a diocesan seminary for studies and are more exposed to other professors outside the RMS control.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 6:37 am,

      RMS seminarians are able to go to a diocesan seminary because they are Catholic and diocesan. The reverse is also true. Diocesan seminarians can go to an RMS seminary because they are Catholic and diocesan. The materials being taught are the same. The only difference is that the RMS seminarian are trained to evangelize worldwide rather than locally.

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  7. Evangelize meaning give 'work with the NCW communities, family in mission, itinerancy,". Yes, materials are the same but real diocesan professors have their studies from different theological schools that have special emphasis. RMS seminarians should have a 'well-rounded' formation like a graduate from RMS Guam take further studies at the Catholic Theological University, etc.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 8:58 am,

      According to Dictionary.com, evangelize means to go out and preach the gospel. It has nothing to do with the NCW communities. Please do not invent your own definition. There is only one kind of theological school........and that is Catholicism. Everything that Catholicism follows is the only theology that should be taught in all Catholic seminaries.

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    2. The truth is diana, RMS does not want to go to other seminaries outside of Rome because they do not want to learn 'other' ways of understanding Catholic theology. RMS formation is narrow-minded
      traditional/fundamentalist theology. I can attest to that.

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    3. Dear Anonymous at 12:35 pm,

      What do you mean "other" ways of understanding Catholic theology? Please explain.

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    4. But 'evangelize' is a term that Diana has emphasized and the meaning is not the dictionary meaning.
      You twist everything Diana/Susana to fit your agenda.
      "other" ways of understanding of Catholic Theology is like Pope Francis is doing.
      You know that there are different shades of Catholics. Theology is also understood differently depending on the charism for instance of a group. NCW is a charism initially, born of the the Spirit, but it became a mandated organization after the statues came out. That is why leadership has been pushing and ordaining priests, building seminaries. NCW is not anymore a charism, a fruit of the spirit.

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 8:18 am,

      Which Pope says that the NCW is no longer a charism???

      Where did you hear this false rumor that the NCW leadership has been pushing and ordaining priests. Can you quote an NCW leader saying this? It takes at least 8 years for an RMS priest to be ordain. Many of them go beyond 8 years.

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    6. Every year since 1985.

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    7. Dear Anonymous at 1:34 am,

      I did not ask you for the year. I ask you for the name of the Pope who stated that the NCW is no longer a charism.

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    8. What is a charism?

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  8. All,seminarians born raise Guam should go to St.Patrick's . All foreign seminarians need to,go back to their own countries and seek admission to their home dioceses.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:37 am,

      I do not know if you realize this, but your statement is only putting our island down.

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    2. I'm not putting down island Diana.
      I'm trying to build a common ground of peace for all of us who call Guam home.

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  9. Does that include having a visiting lecturer state that "Christ was a sinner"?
    Ellen B.

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    1. Dear Ellen B.

      Anyone listening to that recorded tape should already know that the instructor speaks English as a second language. Due to his being an ESL speaker and because I do not the know the topic of his lesson, it can easily be misinterpreted.

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    2. Duh, Diana. Presicely why they should not be instructing here! It can easily be misinterpreted.

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    3. Dear Anonymous at 10:54 am,

      It was easily misinterpreted by the jungle, not by those who were in the room listening to the lessons. They were there and knew the topic of the lesson. The jungle deliberately saw the opportunity to take advantage of someone who was an ESL speaker and kept the topic of the lesson out to mislead others. The jungle had the agenda to look for any opportunity to put down the NCW and the Archbishop. In fact, they even point out the grammatical errors of everyone who is in the NCW and ignore their own.

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    4. Diana, you are being disingenuous. He said more than once, "Christ was a sinner." Sinner is not a difficult word to understand for an ESL priest. If he has not the proficiency in English to lecture on matters of theology he should not lecture. Is there no one else available who speaks and understands English who can come to Guam RMS and help educate the seminarians?
      Ellen B.

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 1:00 pm,

      This came from the recording, which is found in Chuck White's website:

      "FR. VERALDI: …very action, action of liturgy. Liturgical action. Also when we sight the son by ourself, because as a church we pray for everybody. And then there is Jesus Christ inside, inside of the sons (signs?). Sons (signs?) must be referred to, to Jesus Christ. Is a prefiguration. He experienced, he experience the son (sign?) before ourself. Before me and before you, Jesus Christ experience the Son (sign?). He experience the love of God, the Father.
      He experienced the forgiveness of the Father, because he was a sinner. He became a sinner. Willing, not because he was imposed, because he was a sinner, willingly, willing a sinner."

      Notice that Father Veraldi stated: "And then there is Jesus Christ inside, inside of the sons. Sons must be referred to, to Jesus Christ. Is a prefiguration."

      It appears that he was speaking of two different people. Jesus is inside who, which he calls a prefiguration? Abraham's son, Isaac is a prefigurations of Christ because the father (Abraham) was going to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Isaac did not fight back to save his life. He went willingly to be sacrificed..

      Father Veraldi did not say that Christ was a sinner. He said "He was a sinner." The problem here is.....who is "HE"? Who is the HE that the instructor was referring to? Because he is an ESL speaker and his speech was taken out of context, it is difficult to determine who are the two people he was speaking about. We know that one of them is Christ, but there is another person he was speaking about. Someone who was a prefigurement of Christ.

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  10. Diana, one of our brothers in community not doing well tonight. Please can I ask you to lift up Brother Marco in prayer tonight. By sunrise he will have entered the New Jerusalem .

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  11. How sad. Prayers for his intention.

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  12. Diana, any thoughts on this article about the Neocatechumenal Way?
    http://www.postguam.com/forum/mindful-musings/43045-concern-about-neocatechumenal-influence.html#.VkI-YGbXenM

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 10:24 am,

      See my reply in the following weblink:

      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/11/what-it-means-to-be-catholic.html

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  13. I enjoyed to watch Fr. Pedro ordination on live stream. Did I miss where he will minister? Will he stay on n Guam?

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