In the Umatuna dated June 21, 2015, Father Adrian stated: Seminarians are trained for ministry in the Church, they are not trained for the Neocatechmenal way as was falsely noted. Father Adrian's letter can be found here. Father Adrian is correct. The men at the RM Seminary are being trained for the new evangelization. This is what the RMS Articles of Incorporation stated (bold is mine):
The purpose of the corporation shall be limited to the following: to establish and conduct a Seminary to prepare men for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way as a way of formation in accordance with the precepts of the Roman Catholic faith.
What I placed in bold above is what Tim Rohr left out. This is what Tim Rohr stated:
Adrian, you are either stupid beyond belief of you are the Church's most unscrupulous liar. It says right here that the men are prepared "following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way",
http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/06/adrian-continues-to-make-joke-of-himself.html
Notice that Tim Rohr stated, "the men are prepared 'following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way'." He left out "for the priesthood for the evangelization....." He left this part out because he intends to mislead his readers into believing that these men are being prepared to become "Neo priests" rather than "diocesan priests."
There are different types of evangelization in the many movements and organizations of the Catholic Church. The Charismatic Catholics, for example, have their own evangelization, which is very different from the NCW. The Charismatic Catholics use prayer meetings, Spirit seminars, Masses and services with healing prayers, and music ministry as a way to evangelize. The NCW, on the other hand, evangelizes in two by twos, testimonies, itinerancy, through the Great Mission, the Catechesis, and with the Ad Gentes. The RMS seminarians are being prepared for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and iternary of the Neocatechumenal Way.......NOT in the life and itinerary of the Charismatic Catholic Renewal or even the Cursillio Movement. Father Adrian is correct. The seminarians in the Redemptoris Mater Seminary are not being trained for the Neocatechumenal Way. They are being trained for the evangelization and ministry of the Church as all Catholic priests regardless of whether they are Opus Dei, Jesuits, Franciscans, Charismatic Renewal, Eastern Catholic, or diocesan priests from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary.
Father Adrian also pointed out that there are seminarians in the RM Seminary whose tuition, room, and board are being paid by the Diocese of American Samoa, the Archdiocese of Apia, Western Samoa, and the Diocese of Kiribat-Nauru. Twenty-six of the diocesan seminarians are studying for the Archdiocese of Agana. According to Father Adrian:
Several of our diocesan priests ordained from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary now work in parishes in the Archdiocese. Fathers Alberto, Edivaldo, Krzysztof, and Antonino serve as Pastors. Father Harold is the Vice-Rector of the seminary, Father Michael Jucutan is Vice-Rector of the Cathedral-Basilica. Fathers Francesco and Vincenzo serve as Parochial Vicars, Fathers Julius Akinyemi as Parochial Administrator of Merizo and Umatac. Fathers Julio Cesar and Miguel Angel are off island doing doctoral studies in Theology; eventually they will return to teach at the seminary. Fathers Edwin, Aurelio, Fabio and Jason are on mission in other countries. Nine are currently in Guam, two are in studies, and four are on loan. Priests serve the local church to which they are assigned and are also called to go to all the nations and “teach them everything I have commanded you.”
Also Diana there is a difference between being formed following the life and itinerary OF the NCW rather than FOR the NCW.
ReplyDeleteYou can be formed following the life OF any religious order but this does not mean that you are being formed FOR that religious order.
ALL PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS ARE FORMED for THE CHURCH. You are not formed for anything else. However, you will not understand this if you continue to think that the NCW is separate from the church which it is not. When you are formed for the CHURCH you need to understand that the CHURCH is UNIVERSAL and is not just local.
Dear Anonymous at 3:50 am,
DeleteI agree with you. And nowhere did I ever say that the NCW is separate from the Church.
Wordplay....you and I both know that the seminarians are preparing to go out and gather more to walk in the Way. As you pointed out, it states in their own articles "following the life and itinernary of the Neocatechumenal Way." It is common knowledge now that there are two warring factions in the Catholic church on Guam and so to the average person, that translates to 'they (seminarians) are formed for NCW.'
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:42 pm,
DeleteAs someone pointed out under this thread, there is a difference between "of" and "for". This is what the RMS Article of Incorporation reads: to prepare men FOR the priesthood FOR the evangelization, following the life and itinerary OF the Neocatechumenal Way
Diana, there's a new player in Junglewatch. Looks like Timmy is getting a taste of his own medicine.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.junglewatch.info/2015/06/new-jokers-wild-not-playing-with-full.html
What goes around comes around. He must know something about Tim's skeletons in the closet. I find his last few sentences interesting. Am I wrong? but it's almost as if he's implying that Tim was once a seminarian.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:33 am,
DeleteI got that same impression too. According to Jokers Wild:
"However, If you so wish to reveal the truth, be sure to reveal the entire truth, include all the names of the once seminarians and details of those parties, I hear they were wild ones. Erotic at times. Brothers? thats not what they have to say about you. right Timothy?"
Jokers Wild insists to reveal the names of those who were "once seminarians." Then that last sentence: "that's not what they have to say about you. right Timothy?" makes the implication that Tim Rohr was once a seminarian along with other seminarians.
You really should read carefully before commenting. Read it again...the comment is to a Jon Toves. The "Right, Timothy?" is asking Tim to concur with his statements.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:32 pm,
DeleteYou may be correct.
Diana, you are incomplete in stating what Tim Rohr posted on what Fr. Adrian wrote. You failed to reveal that Tim also published an actual screen shot of the complete paragraph of Article III of the RMS By Laws.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, it states (emphasis mine):
Article III.
PURPOSE
The purpose of the corporation shall be limited to the following: to establish and conduct a Seminary to prepare men for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way as a way of formation in accordance with the precepts of the Roman Catholic faith. The Corporation may own, lease, or otherwise procure all such real and personal property as may be necessary to carry on any of the Corporation's business.
Also, he did not omit "for the priesthood for the evangelization" to mislead as you purported. Anyone familiar with Catholic seminaries knows that "for the priesthood for the evangelization" is the purpose for all seminaries, RMS or not. Thus, it is not the point of contention. That Adrian denied the fact in how the seminarians in the RMS are formed is.
However, it did not take Tim to correct Adrian, he just pointed it out on his blog that while Adrian attempted to mislead people in saying that the RMS does not form priests through the NCW, it was the RMS' own By Laws that exposed Adrian's fabrication.
"Whether they were formed following the life and itinerary of the NCW should not matter."
DeleteDiana, how can you say that? It really DOES matter that there is a restriction on their education. This restriction is not coming from Rome but it is coming from the NCW. The donor who bought the Accion hotel had never known about his restriction. Is this okay for you, Diana? Was not this lady misled somehow? Tell me pray, how can you follow the "life of the NCW" in education? No such thing has ever been sanctioned by the Catholic Church. It DOES matter that NCW grabbed Accion Hotel for its own purposes.
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteCan you be more specific? Exactly what restriction did the NCW place on the seminarians' education? The RMS Articles of Incorporation stated (Capitalization is mine):
"to prepare men for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way as a way of formation IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PRECEPTS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITH."
Dear Jose,
DeleteThe seminarians in the Archdiocese are formed as diocesan priests. Some of these priests are already parish priests on Guam. They are formed in accordance with the precepts of the Roman Catholic faith. Whether a priest is formed following the life and itinerary of the NCWshould not matter. These priests still function both at the parish level and as worldwide missionaries.
Diana, You said : "Whether a priest is formed following the life and itinerary of the NCW should not matter."
DeleteThis is not nowhere close to the subject of this conversation. What does matter is that Fr. Adrian did not speak the truth about how the seminarians in the RMS are formed. He flat out lied.
Why you attempted to circumnavigate this assertion with that which is not germane to the conversation has me thinking you are unwilling or unable to accept Adrian's offence.
Dear Jose,
DeletePerhaps, you can enlighten me. What exactly did Father Adrian lie about? Tim Rohr says that the RMS priest was formed for the Neocatechumenal Way. If that were true, these priests would ONLY be priests in the Way and not even doing Mass in the parish. They would be doing ONLY the Eucharist in the Way. But the fact is.....they are doing Mass in the parish. They are serving the universal Church.
I am happy to "enlighten" you Diana:
Delete"[RMS] Seminarians are trained for ministry in the Church, they are not trained for the Neocatechmenal[sic] way as falsely noted."
--Fr Adrian, Umatuna Si Yu'os, Sunday, June 21, 2015
ARTICLE III
PURPOSE
The purpose of the Corporation shall be limited to the following: to establish and conduct a Seminary to prepare men for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and itinerary of the Neocatechumenal Way as a way of formation in accordance with the precepts of the Roman Catholic Church.
-- By-Laws of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, Archdiocese Of Agana, as marked received on November 27, 2002 by the Department of Revenue and Taxation of the Government of Guam
Your attempts to parse words will only be an exercise in futility as the facts speak for themselves: Fr. Adrian lied and the RMS By-Laws exposed his ruse.
Dear Jose,
DeleteUnder this thread, an anonymous commenter made the following comment, which I agreed with. He/she stated:
"Also Diana there is a difference between being formed following the life and itinerary OF the NCW rather than FOR the NCW.
You can be formed following the life OF any religious order but this does not mean that you are being formed FOR that religious order.
ALL PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS ARE FORMED for THE CHURCH........"
Nothin in the By-Laws of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, Archdioces of Agana says that the priest was being prepared FOR the NCW. It specifically stated (Capitalization is mine):
" The purpose of the Corporation shall be limited to the following: to establish and conduct a Seminary to prepare men for the priesthood for the evangelization, following the life and itinerary OF the Neocatechumenal Way as a way of formation in accordance with the precepts of the Roman Catholic Church."
In other words, they are being formed, following the life and itinerary OF the NCW......not FOR the NCW. As the commenter pointed out. There is a difference between being formed following the life and itinerary OF the NCW rather than FOR the NCW. You can be formed following the life OF any religious order but this does not mean that you are being formed FOR that religious order.
Therefore, Father Adrian is correct when he said that the priests were not being formed FOR the Way. They are being formed FOR the universal Church.
You asked me to enlighten you yet you keep returning to the dark. It's clear as day that what Fr. Adrian was stating contradicts the stated purpose of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary.
DeleteIt does not matter how verbose you remain in trying to parse, manipulate or misdirect the language of the By-Laws, the fact remains that the RMS is training seminarians in the formation of the NCW.
This will be my last comment to you on this subject because there is nothing else to say on the matter.
Please keep me in your prayers and God Bless.
Dear Jose,
DeleteI read the same By-Laws as you did, and again nothing in those By-Laws says "FOR" the NCW. It specifically stated "OF" the NCW. Those are the facts. The only one saying that the RMS priests are formed "FOR" the NCW is Tim Rohr. But nowhere in those By-laws does it say "FOR" the NCW.
Furthermore, I said that if what Tim Rohr said is true, then the RMS priests would ONLY be a priest for the Way and ONLY do the Eucharist in the Way. But the TRUTH is the RMS priests on Guam are also doing the parish Mass.
Ok, there's an easy test of what is meant by the by-laws.
DeleteWhat actually happens? What do these priests actually do? Do they continue to participate in, defend, favor, implement in their parishes, defer to the leadership of - the neocatechumenal way?
Yes. And why? Because they have been formed FOR the neocatechumenal way.
Is there an expectation that the RMS priests will continue to do all these things for the NCW? Yes, because everyone knows that they are being formed FOR the neocatechumenal way.
DeleteDiana, these seminarians do not belong on Guam they are using our money to live. We are not a welfare system. Here on Guam they get money from us, they give nothing to this community. They are not wanted on Guam. leave Guam we do not want you on our Island.
Jose martinez give it up, your just hurt cause they fire you in KOLG.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:59 am,
DeleteIn the first place, that is a lousy test. All priests are supposed to defend everything that is Catholic, so that would also include the NCW. Do you see the Pope condemning the NCW? Do you see the Pope excommunicating the NCW? The Pope also supports the NCW. These priests supports everything that the Pope supports. Therefore, they were formed for the Catholic Church.
Dear Anonymous at 1:21 pm,
DeleteOpen your eyes. Some of these seminarians have become priests for Guam serving in Guam's parishes. Others do missionary work for the Church. Many years ago, Guam would borrow priests from the U.S. and the Philippines because Guam could not produce enough priests on this island. The Philippines and the U.S. were kind enough to give us priests. Now that Guam has ordained many priests, it is our turn to serve other countries that do not have enough priests. These priests serve our island and the Catholic Church.
Dear Diana at 11.16pm. Why did you latch onto the word "Defend" only? I said "participate in, defend, favor, implement in their parishes, defer to the leadership of".
DeleteNot all Catholic priests are supposed to do these things. That is why the test is fair, and why the result is obvious
Dear Anonymous at 11:52 pm,
DeleteI also said "These priests supports everything that the Pope supports. Therefore, they were formed for the Catholic Church." What makes a person "Catholic" is the union with the Pope. You, on the other hand, separate the NCW simply because you do not see it as "Catholic"; therefore, you are not in union with the Pope. As I said, the Pope gave his full support and acknowledgement to the NCW.
He also gave his full support to global climate change and is pretty against capitalism. So?
DeletePlease just stop pretending that the pope will excommunicate you if you do something wrong. The church is not living in medieval times anymore. Excommunication is not the answer. And to show you that this is true you can take a look at all the 'recommendations' Pope Francis gave to the charismatic renewal this year if I'm not mistaken. There were mire than he gave to the ncw last year in fact yet he did not excommunicate them either. Clearly they have many mistakes and there have clearly been stories of their equivalent of catechists in the ncw abusing authority by 'playing' with the Holy Spirit (who receives the Holy Spirit and who doesn't sort of). Yet he does not tell them after a long time of these stories I excommunicate your movement because it is not being true catholic. No he keeps on recommending ways to improve because he does not want to lose all the people in their communities just like he doesn't want to lose all the ppl in the mcw communities. So he wants to help the ncw, charismatics and many others. None are perfect and all must change for the better so please just stop using the phrase "report us to rome and they will answer and we will stop" or "when the pope excommunicates the ncw we will stop going to it" - they are stupid excuses for the people in movements not to change for the better. That is a wrong thing to be clear. Because knowing something may be arranged and choosing not to arrange it to the best of your abilities is a sin. So please, grow up and stop writing the same excuses which I've been hearing together with many others for years.
DeleteYou used to tell me the church does not care about numbers. Well no, it cares about souls, and it knows that simply excommunicating all the movements which dont accept to change because they think their leader is perfectly catholic and their way cannot be improved, will only result in broken families, loss of faith in the church and many other problems. If you think it through with the brain God gave us you may reason out what I'm talking about. Reasoning is good to the contrary of what the ncw teaches to let go of everything in the hands of God. Guess what? If God wanted us to live like a potato without a brain he wouldn't have given us one with free will and capability of cjoosing right and wrong.
Dear Anonymous at 12:13 am,
DeleteAnd so......according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice." The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.
Dear Keith,
DeleteRecommendations are not condemnations. And Kiko has thanked the Pope for those recommendations, which we follow today. The NCW will not follow any other instructions. So, if you think you want to improve the NCW, then write to the Pope and send him YOUR recommendations on how YOU think the NCW can be improved.
And for your information, excommunication is still being practiced today.
AnonymousJune 24, 2015 at 6:28 PM
DeleteJose martinez give it up, your just hurt cause they fire you in KOLG.
Anon @ 6:28 PM. The correct sentence is "Jose Martinez, give it up. Your'e just hurt because they fired you from KOLG."
If you're going to attempt an insult through a lie, at least have grammar in your arsenal.
Dear Jose,
DeleteYou stated: "Anon @ 6:28 PM. The correct sentence is "Jose Martinez, give it up. Your'e just hurt because they fired you from KOLG."
If you are going to fault someone for their grammatical errors, then you should correct your errors first. You also misspelled the word "you're."
So now you're going to engage me here on your blog in this manner "Diana?" Are you sure you want to go down this path? I'm big enough to admit to the typo, but that's not really the point, is it?
DeleteAnyway, you know who this Anonymous is, "Diana," and if you deny it you would not be fooling anyone. I do not think you want to drag this story out into the open and be on your hands. You're now advised to inform this seminarian and all the other seminarians, including certain clergy at RMS, to cease and desist. They will know what I mean. I am sure Fr. Pius will agree. Unless, of course, he agreed to you publishing that comment.
Dear Jose,
DeleteChrist said that before you take out the splinter from your brother's eye, make sure you take out the log that is in your eye first so you can better see the splinter in your brother's eye.
If you are so big enough to admit the typo, then why the attitude? By this attitude, I can see that you feel insulted when you are corrected. You should thank God that someone was able to let you see your imperfections so that you would understand that others are imperfect as you are.
You, and anonymous blogger, allowed a slander by another anonymous person to be published and I am being the one admonished and preached to?
DeleteCareful who you engage, "Diana."
Dear Jose,
DeleteThe fact that you ONLY corrected the person's grammar and said nothing about you being fired says a lot. Perhaps, there is a lot of truth in what the person said otherwise you would have corrected what you perceived as a lie and not just focus on correcting the grammatical errors. :-)
Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? I did not "ONLY corrected the person's grammar," I addressed it as a lie. However,I am sure my former employer would not want me to discuss, on this blog, the events that lead up to my resignation. You should ask him yourselves.
DeleteYou guys should really consult each other (your blogging crew) before you post anymore slander. Especially now since you all have this knowledge.
Dear Jose,
DeleteTelling a person that he lied is not a correction. It is an accusation. Telling him that you resigned is a correction. No need for an attitude. :-)
Thank you for your persecution, "Diana." [or are you a "John" Doe?] Your efforts to continue to allow the slander to perpetuate is noted.
DeleteDear Jose,
DeleteYou are most welcome. I hope that the next time you CORRECT someone, you do it with charity rather than with an accusation and remember that you are not perfect yourself.
Diana, you are mistaken if you think it is enough to attack Tim Rohr and the opposition to the Archbishop and NCW will go away. CCOG was particularly formed to separate our criticism of local church matters from JW. Many don’t like Tim's blog because it is too much one-sided. But we do not like the arrogant ways of NCW either.
ReplyDeleteTim is not our leader. He has JW as a full time blogger posting several times each day. He is acting on the advice of federal contacts. By collecting data through a network that is open to him and publishing the information he obtained, he prefers to promote his own personal agenda and his own family without regard to the interest of the local church and clergy. We feel he is not using a Catholic approach of humility, prayer and respect to everyone. Still, he pinpoints issues and at least one third of his posts should be taken very seriously!
Tim occasionally might go beyond limits about the RMS but the facts he revealed are most disturbing. A gracious donor released a huge fund to make a purchase and the same donor was not informed properly about who would exactly benefit from the act. The donor did not know that the money graciously provided will be used with restriction. Accion Hotel was purchased for a Catholic Seminary operated by the NCW. The emphasis is on "by the NCW" and not the Catholic Church without restriction. Is this not something the donor should have been honestly informed about in advance?
We understand that there might not be any law violated here. The act was made quite cleverly to avoid legal turmoil. However, we feel the trust of the donor and by this the trust of the Catholic flock of Guam was breached. I don't know what immediate consequences would follow, perhaps nothing, but I am absolutely sure there will be some deep seeded consequences in the long range.
Issues related to the Archbishop and to the NCW are similar. While JW cries out for the removal of the Archbishop and the elimination of the NCW from the island, we don't think it is an agreeable agenda. We would like to see self-restrain and moderation from the Archbishop. He should not give all leadership positions to NCW affiliated priests or laity. He should not chase and hunt down clergy who opposes the NCW. He should not prefer one ecclesiastical group over another. If he is unable of self- restrain, then perhaps he should resign from his position. But we say it should be his decision to resign, no decision of this magnitude should be forced on him.
Regarding the NCW, we cannot support banning or elimination from the island. Lay members of the NCW are our sisters and brothers of Catholic faith. However, NCW should stop its aggressive re-evangelization of good standing Catholic believers. If NCW thinks its mission is to spread our religion, then please go out and spread it among those who do not belong to our churches. Please, put a hold on your desire of taking over our parishes. If we see self-restrain of NCW members and NCW priests, including the Archbishop and visible cutting back of your arrogant power grab at our churches, then we could be able to make peace and live together with your presence in Guam.
Some things should be immediately amended. We cannot accept that clergy who oppose the NCW are assaulted while NCW affiliated priests go away free with their misdeeds. We demand equity in treatment of our preachers. Fr Paul and Fr James should be exonerated and apologized for not treating them with equity. All pressure on priests who do not want NCW in their parishes should stop. As a sign of good will, we request our sisters and brothers in the NCW, please, come back to our churches for the Saturday evening masses. The usual time of NCW masses is available in most if not all local churches. So why not worship God in the proper place of the church that was given to us through the Holy Spirit salvation history? Please, NCW members, come back to our churches.
Diana, as I said, Tim is not our leader. He is a fighter who fights with us and occasionally, for himself. He claims to lead our fight, but his views are not shared by many. In particular he speaks for no clergy. His media appearances are also done completely by his own. We do not identify with that kind of bravados. That is why CCOG was formed. We have true concern for our church.
DeleteI am not talking about what you CAN do, You can go and worship God wherever you want. I am talking about where SHOULD you worship God for the sake of unity with our sisters and brothers: in the church environment with its sacred paintings, statues and music that was formed by centuries of continuous work by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. The preferred place of mass is church. Why go away from this sacred space of God, dear Diana? Just because you CAN go away, you also SHOULD do it?!
I did not say the NCW is not Catholic. I said lay members of the NCW are our sisters and brothers of Catholic faith. Coming back to our churches would be a sign of good will from the side of the NCW. It was also the request of Fr Paul towards the NCW to allow the St Barbara parishioners to have NCW masses in the church. It is sad it was taken as a denial of allowing NCW into the church. Just the opposite is true: come NCW members, but please, worship God in His sacred place of the church.
I also said there is no time conflict with the 7:30 p.m. Saturday evening NCW mass. Churches are empty by that time. NCW communities could gather there which is the same place everybody else gathers for mass at different times. Would not this be a sign of true intention of unity? Come and worship God in the church undisturbed, following your own fashion as you usually do. Would it be too much to ask for the sake of peace, good will and unity?
Please, do not misconstrue my words as demands. It is just an opportunity of mutual understanding. There are many flowers in the fields. You pick the flowers you want. But please, keep the flowers on the fields, do not hide them, so that others may also share in their beauty. Flowers were created for everyone. Just as God created teach and every person. You worship God as you wish. But please, exhibit your devotion for God in His church for His infinite beauty.
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteI was not attacking Tim Rohr. I was pointing out his deliberate deception. Apparently, he cannot distinguish between "for" and "of." Your last sentence is very disturbing. You stated: "Please, NCW members, come back to our churches." This implies that you do not believe that the NCW is Catholic. It was the Vatican who allowed the NCW to celebrate in small communities every Saturday night.
The NCW Mass is held every Saturday evening at 7:30 pm. It does not conflict with the parish Mass. What you want us to do is abandon the NCW celebrations so we can fill up the pews in the parish Mass. Would it help if I told you that some of us attend both the parish Mass the Way's Eucharist?
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteYou stated: " I am talking about where SHOULD you worship God for the sake of unity with our sisters and brothers. in the church environment with its sacred paintings, statues and music that was formed by centuries of continuous work by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. The preferred place of mass is church."
The unity of Catholicism is not "where" one worships. Unity is communion with the Pope and hierarchy of the Catholic Church. All Catholics become united when they are in communion with the Pope and Bishops. Unity never had anything to do with the place of worship because Catholics worship in many place. Persecuted Catholics in the Middle East do not even worship in a church building. St. Paul says that we are united through one baptism, one faith, and one Holy Spirit.
You also stated: "NCW communities could gather there which is the same place everybody else gathers for mass at different times. Would not this be a sign of true intention of unity? Come and worship God in the church undisturbed, following your own fashion as you usually do. Would it be too much to ask for the sake of peace, good will and unity?"
For your information, some of the brothers in my community attend Sunday Mass even though they also attend the NCW Eucharist. The Pope recommended that those walking in the Way attend Sunday Mass at least once a month, but some of us are in the parish more than once a month. Why? Because many of us serve as lectors, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers, and members of the Church choir.
Also, God's Church is not a place. God's Church is the people who gathered to worship Him. All Catholic people are His Church regardless of where they worship Him and what time they worship Him.
Diana, all I see is that you refuse to even discuss what I have proposed. You declare that unity is not in the place of worship. Would this mean NCW would never ever consider to return to our churches to worship God?
DeleteYes, I said that the preferred place of worship is the church. Most Catholics feel that way. Perhaps even in NCW there are many who desire to return to the church. I did not say though that the church is the only or mandatory place. You DON'T NEED to follow this preference, but you COULD if you want. Are you following me, Diana? You could do this in your small communities or community or communities, or whatever way you want, without any harm to your principles IF you want it. Don't you agree with me that the opportunity is given?
So what is the reason you refuse even to consider this? Why can't you hold your Saturday evening worships in our church buildings? All that you wrote does not explain this simple question. Why?
Dear grow in faith,
DeleteThe NCW would not be celebrating the Mass in "small communities" inside the Church building. The Early Christians celebrated Mass in the homes of people. Church buildings only came about when the Church (people) were growing. The Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, which was passed by Rome, stated that we are to celebrate in small communities just as the Early Christians did. The NCW is an imitation of the primitive Church.
How can we celebrate in small communities when you suggest that we use only the Church building? For example, Agana has 8 communities. Are all 8 communities going to celebrate inside the Agana Church with all its priests there? If so, that is no longer celebrating in a small community.
Another reason is the echoes. Most people tend to feel more comfortable expressing themselves in a smaller group rather than in a huge crowd.
"Another reason is the echoes. Most people tend to feel more comfortable expressing themselves in a smaller group rather than in a huge crowd. "
DeleteBut your Statutes say that the NCW Eucharist is "open to all the faithful".
Aren't you contradicted this?
Dear Anonymous at 10:16 pm,
DeleteIt is open to all the faithful, but it is not our fault that many chose not to come to the NCW Eucharist mainly because it is two hours long and the vigils are six hours long. Even the few visitors we have had do not return a second time, and most of it had to do with the long hours.
Diana, you misunderstand again. You said another reason for not celebrating in a Church is the "echoes", because "most people tend to feel more comfortable expressing themselves in a smaller group". In other words, the intention is that others are to be kept away from the NCW Eucharist, so that it remains a "smaller group". But the statutes claim that the NCW Eucharist is part of the Sunday liturgical work of the parish and "open to other faithful".
DeleteIf the Vatican, through the Statutes state that the celebration of the NCW Eucharist is open to other faithful, it follows that the Vatican is not concerned whether it remains a "smaller group" or not.
Diana, first you hurry to make a declaration of not coming back to the church, then you look for excuses. Should it not be the other way around? First look at the reasons of the rejection of having you masses in the church, then contemplate if these reasons are sufficient to reject the sacred place, the "House of God".
DeleteYou say the Agana church has 8 NCW communities worshiping God as a community of communities. Well, if there are, for example, two Saturday masses for the 8 communities, then these masses could be conducted one after the other in the church. Or taking rotation from one week to the other: one mass in the church, one in the social hall. I am talking solely about the Saturday evening worship service, There could be several good solutions if there is good will. But hey, is there any good will out there, dear Diana?
You say some people in the NCW feel uncomfortable echoing in a large group, so they don't prefer to go to the church to worship God. But you do echoing in a huge crowd during the Easter vigil mass as you said. What is the difference? Why to have some many echoes, anyway, during a mass celebration? Is echo so important for you? I wonder why? What is the point? What I understand about echo is that it seems to be a distraction from Sacred Scripture and a distraction from Jesus' presence during the mass who is there to host the worship. When you put God first, you should not put echo first. God is divine and echo is human. So look for a sacred place to worship God. Why don't you?
See, my proposal is to live in peace on Guam, coexist among different spiritual groups. Peace means giving and receiving. As Pope Francis said: "At times it can be better to give up living out in detail what your itinerary would call for, in order to guarantee unity among the brethren who form one ecclesial community, which you must always feel a part of. "
https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/february/documents/papa-francesco_20140201_cammino-neocatecumenale.html
So is there anything, dear Diana, that you could offer as a good will measure for the purposes of mutual trust building and a sign of honest intentions of the NCW?
Dear Anonymous at 11:04 am,
DeleteThe intention of the Vatican is for the community to celebrate in small groups....meaning that each community is supposed to celebrate on its own provided that they have a priest. So, other faithfuls are invited to attend the Eucharist of Community 1 while others can also go to community 2 and still others go to community 3. In this way, it is still a small group. But having all 8 communities together even if it is only the community members themselves is already a large group. Having all 8 communities together in the church building is what Grow Up is requesting us to do.
Not all communities have a priest of their own, so some of them combine with other communities who have a priest. On the other hand, some priests would celebrate the Eucharist more than once in order for communities to celebrate in small groups. The success of the NCW is attributed to the small communities.
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteI already go to BOTH Masses....the parish Mass and the NCW Mass. Did I not say to you that many brothers in my community already go to the Sunday Mass in the parish??? Why? Because many of us volunteered to be alter servers, Eucharistic ministers, lectors, and participate in the church choir. The Pope told us that those walking in the Way are to attend the parish Mass at least once a month. Some of us attend Mass more than once a month simply because of our voluntary service to the Church. What you really want is for the NCW to stop the Saturday Eucharist. We already attend the Sunday Mass, but that is not enough for you that you feel you need to dictate to us what you want us to do for the sake of co-existing in peace?? Explain why you are not satisfied with the NCW attending Mass at least once a month in the regular parish? Explain why are you not satisfied that me and my brothers attend Sunday Mass by participating as alter servers, Eucharistic ministers, lectors and church choir members?
"The Pope told us that those walking in the Way are to attend the parish Mass at least once a month"
DeleteRead it again. The pope did not say "members" - he said "communities".
"What you really want is for the NCW to stop the Saturday Eucharist"
Yes. At least after the initial catechesis.
"Explain why you are not satisfied with the NCW attending Mass at least once a month in the regular parish? Explain why are you not satisfied that me and my brothers attend Sunday Mass by participating as alter servers, Eucharistic ministers, lectors and church choir members? "
Because Mass is a visible sign of unity (communion) in the Church. There should simply be "Mass", not "NCW mass", especially since the NCW is not an order, group, association etc. Is there an "RCIA Mass"?
This problem is compounded by the stubborn refusal to follow the GIRM, but rather to do things differently - even at the summit of the Mass, Holy Communion. The NCW practices a "different communion", and this should be obvious to all NCW members - that there is division in the very heart of the Mass, deliberately, stubbornly and without good reason.
How much toward overcoming division could be accomplished simply by discontinuing the separate Masses after say the first year of catechesis? But it will never happen, because you have all sold your souls to Kiko and his way.
Dear Anonymous at 10:47 am,
DeleteYou stated: "Read it again. The pope did not say "members" - he said "communities".
The members are in the communities. The point is that the Pope said to attend Mass at least once a month.
You stated: "Yes. At least after the initial catechesis."
Then your true intention has nothing to do with a peaceful co-existence, but an elimination of the NCW altogether.
You stated: "Because Mass is a visible sign of unity (communion) in the Church. There should simply be "Mass", not "NCW mass", especially since the NCW is not an order, group, association etc. Is there an "RCIA Mass"?
The Latin rite Church has 9 different kind of liturgies they use in the Mass. The Eastern-rite Catholics have many more than that. You have a Novus Ordo Mass and a Latin Mass. Do you also tell those who attend the Latin Mass to go to the Novus Ordo Mass. The Catholic Church teaches that all Catholics are united regardless of what Mass they attend. I do not know where you came up with the idea YOUR Mass is better than others.
Deliberately obfuscating again Diana?
DeleteThe NCW must follow the Roman Rite, so please cease and desist these references to the other rites.
Now there are two forms of the Roman rite. Which one does the NCW use? Because if you claim to use the ordinary form, then you are subject to the dictates of the GIRM, which you patently ignore - eg flowers on the altar.
You practise a "different communion" to all others that use the Roman Rite. Which means that your are not in unity with the Church on this matter, as that is what communion means. You are in incestuous union with yourself (all other NCW communities) only, insofar as you choose the NC way over the GIRM.
Dear Anonymous at 11:53 am,
DeleteWe followed what the Pope instructed us to do. If you feel that we are not following what we are supposed to follow, then write to the Vatican, and we will wait for the Vatican to correct us.....that is if there is actually any correction to be done.
What a pathetic and typical answer for someone who has had their reason excised. Are you incapable of assessing reality for yourself? Can you not read? Have you never learned that it is you, personally, that must respond to the teachings of the Faith - that you can't defer this responsibility to others, even if they are the Bishop or the Pope.
DeleteI notice that you can't actually argue with the substance of my previous comment, but merely resort to the tired old "write to the Vatican", "we have been told to do this". So, evidently, you accept that you are not in communion with the rest of the Church's celebrations in the Roman Rite - that you disobey the directives of the GIRM. And in so doing, you proudly admit to something other than the Catholic faith
Dear Anonymous at 1:02 pm,
DeleteThe Archbishop had an audience with the Pope. If the Archbishop had any doubts about the way the NCW celebrates the Eucharist, he would have brought it up during the audience with the Pope. Because he has seen and heard the Pope, I believe the Archbishop when he said that he has the support of the Pope.
If you believe that the Way is disobedient, the correct course of action would be to write the Vatican. Who are you to think that you have the authority to change the way we celebrate the Eucharist?
Hmm, if you read my reply, you will find that I make no attempt to "change the way we celebrate the Eucharist".
DeleteI merely point out that it is your responsibility to adhere to the teaching of the Church - not to defer that responsibility to someone else even if they are Pius, The Archbishop, Kiko or even the pope.
There is enough information for you to see what is obliged of you if you wish to be Catholic. Part of that reponsibility is to observe the norms of the liturgy. And to the extent that you ignore or defy these; that you advance to others that this defiance is acceptable, or even normal - to that extent you are culpable when these others are also drawn into error.
Dear Anonymous at 11:06 pm,
DeleteIt is our responsibility to be obedient to the Pope. He gave us permission to celebrate the way we celebrate the Eucharist. That permission had always been found in Kiko's 2006 thank you letter to the Pope. kiko thanked the Pope for many things, and one of them was giving them the permission to consume the Body of Christ sitting down.
"That permission had always been found in Kiko's 2006 thank you letter to the Pope."
DeleteIs that so? Well, do I need to remind you that your "definitive" Statutes were not promulgated until 2008? That means that this supposed "permission" to which you have often referred has been supersedes by the provisions of the Statutes - which clearly state what is and isn't allowed of the NCW in the celebration of the Eucharist. Are you seriously proposing that ignore your own Statutes of 2008, wherein you are required to "stand" - and wherein there is no reference to "sitting down"?
I think your argument has just come undone!
Hi Diana, first I have heard of this 2006 thank you letter to the Pope. Is this published somewhere? Thank you.
Delete"If the Archbishop had any doubts about the way the NCW celebrates the Eucharist, he would have brought it up during the audience with the Pope"? To even raise the possibility that the archbishop would have any doubts about anything his catechist(s) told him is ludicrous. The archbishop, as Brother Tony, would not dare to harbor any doubts whatsoever about what he received from his catechists. The one thing I believe that Brother Tony, along with other members of his community, has learned is to OBEDIENCE and the second thing is NOT TO QUESTION the catechist.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:34 pm,
DeleteThe Archbishop is higher than the Catechists. It is the Archbishop who oversees the NCW because he was the one who authorized the implementation of the NCW in the diocese.
Diana at 9:56 PM, the archbishop in his ecclesial position may be "higher than the Catechists" as you claim BUT as BROTHER TONY, he is just another NCW community member and would not dare to question the teaching of his catechist(s).
DeleteIf the archbishop had not joined the NCW and stayed independent, he would have been able to oversee the NCW. Once he joined, that role of overseer was superseded by that of community member.
Dear Anonymous at 1:31 pm,
DeleteHave you ever read the Holy Bible? St. Paul and the Apostles call everyone in their Church brothers and sisters despite the fact that they were Bishops. Pope Francis even said that we are all brothers and sisters despite the fact that he is the Pope. You are incorrect to think that a Bishop cannot be a Bishop and still be a brother. All the Apostles were Bishops, and they called every "brothers and sisters." Did you not learn this in the Catholic Church?
Dear Diana
ReplyDeleteChrist built his church on saint Peter not Kiko
Dear Anonymous at 6:30pm,
DeleteWhere in any of my comments did I ever say that the Church was built on Kiko? Kiko is Catholic and follows the Pope. The NCW is Catholic and follows the Pope.
AnonymousJune 23, 2015 at 6:30 PM Same with you loving Tim Rohr and Chuck White. At least Kiko is diligently evangelizing, what do you do? Belly ache the whole day? The only thing is good with you is criticize people.
DeleteDiana, Tim said that you made him laugh.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:37 pm,
DeleteGood! I am glad that I was able to make him laugh because most of the time he is a very angry and bitter man. :-) Laughing and smiling gives one a longer life.
angry and bitter man ???? if he doesn't watch it he's going to have a arch attack Why does Tim have lot of hate for the bishop ? turning his own people against him. priest talking bad about him does Rome know all this? priest talking against their bishop.'' Disrespectful''
Delete"Why does Tim have lot of hate for the bishop "
DeleteReally? You don't know?
Because "the bishop" favors the NCW at the expense of the faithful, and is beholden to the NCW leaders. In this way, he betrays his own flock, and fails to live up to his vocation. That's why.
Dear Anonymous at 11:06 am,
DeleteActually, it is due to jealousy. Have you not notice that Tim Rohr is always telling the Archbishop what he should do. For example, he tells the Archbishop only to cite the Catechism when speaking about homosexuality. The things that he accused the NCW leaders is actually what Tim Rohr is guilty of. In other words, he accused the NCW of telling the Archbishop what to do.....when in reality, he (Tim Rohr) is the one telling the Archbishop what to do. And he does this because he wants the Archbishop to pay attention to him. Tim Rohr and many others perceive that the Archbishop pays more attention to the NCW only because of jealousy in their heart.
favors the NCW at expense of faithful ?? WOW he didn't murder anybody, or steal money from anybody.he didn't turn his back on the people he just trying to help other people . and he's supposed to be hated for that.sounds like jealousy to me.....
DeleteAnonymousJune 24, 2015 at 11:06 AM
ReplyDelete"Why does Tim have lot of hate for the bishop "
You should ask rohr why he hates the Arch Bishop personally. As a business man, be prepared to be sold on his adjenda.
As for the Arch Bishop betraying his flock; his mission is not for the welfare of the whole but for the ones who have gone astray...lost.
Think about it for a minute; 40 plus thousand people live in Dededo; maybe 5 thousand attend churches of different churches on Sunday. What are the other 35,000 doing? This is why God sent his Son to the world; to save those 35,000. This is the mission of the Arch Bishop TODAY.
We have many, many Catholics who are blind to the mission of the Church. They don't appear to understand the mission of the Church. They do not practice the faith of Jesus Christ. They talk about their money but never talk about their faith. They want a nice Church, painted, decorated with air-conditioning and a Priest that respects their will, not the will of God.
Is this the flock you are referring too?
JSB
And therein lies the problem: "his mission is not for the welfare of the whole but for the ones who have gone astray...lost." And here I thought he was the Archbishop for all of us!
DeleteCome to think of it, though, if non-Neos are described as "... many, many Catholics who are blind to the mission of the Church. They don't appear to understand the mission of the Church. They do not practice the faith of Jesus Christ", then shouldn't the Archbishop be paying attention to them? After all, in the Neo's eyes, non-neos are the ones 'lost', and have gone 'astray' (desiring nice churches, painted & airconditioned, etc. etc.) Sounds like that would be the Arch's mission as defined by JSB.
Dear Anonymous at 9:56 am,
DeleteThe NCW describe themselves as sinners always in need of Christ. The NCW members often say that they are the ones who are lost because we are sinners.
If you have been reading my blog for the last couple of years, those who are not in the NCW are always criticizing the members of the NCW for focusing too much on sin. In fact, one person calling himself "Grow up in faith" even stated that Catholics are "not sinners per se but saved people......" Those who are "non-Neos" feel that they are the one, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, and call the NCW "Protestants." Christ left the 99 righteous sheep to look for the one lost sheep. The Non- Neos who make comments on this blog feel that they are not lost because they are the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Thank you for that explanation, Diana. It is a bit confusing, but I believe I see what you are saying.
DeleteWhat about JSB's comment on the Archbishop's mission? He also emphasized 'TODAY'. Does this mean NCW sees the mission of the Archbishop has changed? If so, this will be percieved that the Archbishop will be favoring NCW walkers, which will cause jealousy and, in effect, separation amongst Catholics. As a leader, this is not a good way to maintain peace in a group.
Dear Anonymous at 10:26 am,
DeleteFirst of all, all of us are lost. We are all lost because all of us are sinners in need of Christ. The Archbishop's mission is to bring all Catholics to be closer to Christ.....NOT closer to him (the Archbishop). But there is nothing anyone can do for those who feel that they are not lost or not sinners.
This Bishop must be a saint. To survive all these lies and all this hatred, he must have lots of zeal and love.
ReplyDeleteHow can those who criticize him so viciously and so anti-evangelical go to communion?
When E. Stanley Jones, well-known missionary to India, had the opportunity to meet with Mahatma Gandhi, he asked a searching question of India’s revered leader: “How can Christianity make a stronger impact on your country?” Gandhi very thoughtfully replied that three things would be required.
First, Christians must begin to live more like Jesus. Second, the Christian faith should be presented without any adulteration. Third, Christians should emphasize love, which is at the heart of the gospel.
Thank you Diana for that clarification on the word lost and its application to not only the NCW but to those who attend one Mass a week or so who will not admit to being lost and especially to those who have strayed away or never had a relationship with Christ.
ReplyDeleteRohr's message of discontent is being received by a majority of Catholics that fall more or less in the second group mentioned above. They fulfill the most basic of sacraments and for the most part feel that they have established a very comfortable relationship with God. It is a relationship that is in their mind fits their lifestyle; timelines and priorities.
JSB
Questions that need to be asked for the sake of transparency
ReplyDeleteWho is funding Tim Rohr?
Who is funding CCOG?
ReplyDeleteTim Rohr funds his own page.
Who is funding Tim Rohr?
ReplyDeletethis is a very good question Anonymous but we will probably never get a truthful answer.
When Jesus said in Matthew; Come after me and I will make you fishers of people; he did not say, bring your money, your intellect, your self righteous opinions, your pride...etc. I...I....I will make you....I...I...I will guide you.
rohr, ccog, white...if they are following Christ; they are not sowing the love of Jesus Christ.
JSB
"Your intellect"?
DeleteWhat is this supposed to mean? That "intellect" is an impediment to holiness or the Christian life?
This one statement says much about the distorted view of man that is advanced by the NCW. I have heard similar things - "Intellect is from the devil", for example. This sort of sentiment is quite evidently a means by which the NCW exerts its control of members. It is anti-Christian and quite fundamentally wrong, although it explains much of the very poor reasoning displayed here and elsewhere by the advocates of the NCW.
hhhmmmm.....seemed to have struck a sensitive cord with Anonymous June 27th at 5:49.
ReplyDeleteMaybe...judging by the tone of his comment; he is acknowledging that his own intellect; knowledge or reasoning of Jesus Christ is in question.
His comment: "the NCW exerts its control of members" is amazing evident and affirmation that in his mind; what he says has truth.
He does not however speak through experience because the NCW does not exercise control on anyone or anything. We may individual control of our lives; YES but we accept that it is only God who is in control and he has given us the freedom to choose. We follow God which is never easy; failing many times but he sent his Son to sustain and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We listen. We walk like Abraham.
Want to see control? Human control?
1. Let us write a letter to the Vatican to replace Arch Bishop Apuron.
2. Don't give money to your parish Church.
3. Let us sell the Yona RMS so we can pay off our bills
4. Let us question the formation of RMS seminarians.
5. Let us call Father Adrian a liar
6. Let us disrespect Catholic Priest like Father Pius.
7. Let us disrespect anything that we don't understand.
8. I am right; I am and only I am speaking the truth
9. Let us write; be interviewed by the media; don't need facts or truth; they will listen to me.
No Anonymous; we do not need intellect to go to heaven; holiness or Christian life. You just need faith and the humility to accept that if we say we have it; we really don't. If we say we know it; we really don't.
JSB