Wednesday, June 3, 2015

To Niinja2

The following comment was made by Niinja2 on June 2nd at 8:02 pm. with some modification.  The full comment can be found here.   My comments are in red.

So it appears that people have weakened nature and are susceptible to influence of sin but don't have weakened nature when threatened with fear of death and are free from this influ ence to do anything...because fear of death does not really influence us. This is because we are creatures of pure spirit not flesh, that cannot die and feel pain and we can walk through walls to.

Original sin weakens our nature that we become susceptible to sin.  The fear of death is NOT a sin.  Fearing death is a natural emotion.  There is no sin in feeling a fear of death.  Even Jesus feared the suffering that he was to undergo and the death he was to have that he asked His Father to take the cup from Him.  It makes no sense to compare sin to something that is NOT a sin. 

Furthermore, I never said that we should not fear death because we are creatures of spirit.  I said that as Christians we do not need to fear death because Christ conquered death thereby giving us access to eternal life in Heaven. 

It does not matter if you felt forced or not, you recognized my arguments as forcing something but when catechists threaten someone with fear or loss then that someone is not forced he is suddenly free...

What you say here does not make any sense.  When the Catechist tell you that it is more important that you attend the Eucharist rather than a music concert...that is not a threat.  He is telling you the truth.  How anyone can compare the importance of the Eucharist to a music concert is beyond me. 

However, if you choose the music concert, that is your choice.  And the choices we make do have consequences.  And when I say that the choices we make has consequences.....that is not a threat nor a manipulation.  It is the truth.  For every good choice we make, there is a consequence, and for every negative choice we make, there is also a consequence.  If you do not believe me, try robbing a store and see what the consequences is for robbing a store.

And since i am not talking to "some people" i am talking to you, you said this because YOU are these "people" and YOU FELT FORCED and now you play this word games to evade the fact that influence of others can put pressure on people just to DENY THAT MANIPULATION HAPPENS ON NCW.
I mean you are trying to deny that the sky is blue.

Nowhere in my comments did I ever say that I felt forced.  I specifically stated that YOU are trying to FORCE others to accept your views and only your views.  Apparently, you must feel some deep frustration in the NCW, but I do not think it has to do with the catechists.  I think your frustration was because you were unable to get the catechists or others in your community to accept your views and only your views. 

You are also trying to deny the simple historical fact that people enslaved one another and that slaves existed. Or could you explain what exactly enslaved black people?
"People do not enslave us. It has always been the Devil who is the enemy and who enslave us"
The devil that worked through white slave owners?
Oh it was not the people that enslaved others, no no people are always free to do what they want no matter the pressure from outside or chains on their hands because Jesus set us free...

Niinja2, suffering occurs in this world because of sin.  There are wars in this world because of sin.  The fact that some men chose to go to war, to enslave, and to kill is the result of man's free will.  I have showed you in the Catechism that man is endowed with free will.  Man is also endowed with intellect and reason to determine what is right and wrong.  Furthermore, the choices (whether good or bad) always have consequences and affects other people around us.  This is why St. Paul says in the Holy Bible that if one member of the Church hurts, then the whole body hurts.   

And yes, it is Satan who tempts man to sin just as he tempted Jesus in the desert.  People are free to choose their path in life even when faced with temptation.  The Church teaches us to persevere in those times of temptation.  Temptation is the pressure outside, but man is still capable of resisting those temptations especially through prayer or calling on God to help them.   

"None of those are slaves because Christ died for our sins and conquered death."

You just denied the history of slavery on earth! Tell me what color is the color of sky, no really? You not sure its green? I think its blue, oh i'm sorry i am forcing my beliefs onto you.

You read my words, but you did not understand.  Do you believe that Christ died for our sins and conquered death?  Do you believe that Christ has freed us from the slavery of sin or not?  According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 

CCC 421   Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." (GS 2 § 2).

In the NCW, we focus more on God and heavenly things rather than on earthly things.  And when you focus on God and heavenly things, then one finds true peace and happiness on earth despite the earthly wars, trials, and frustrations.  All the saints understood what "heaven on earth" means. 

Yeah it must be me...

" You simply do not understand my answer or do not like them, which is the reason you persist in argument"
I persist in an argument that is factually and historically correct.

When someone tells you something about you, it helps to listen because many times, others can objectively see things about you than you cannot.  You look at facts and history.  You are more like the Apostle Thomas who needs to see with his own eyes rather than believe what his brothers tell him. 

Oh my ,i have seen the light, you have convinced me. Now just tell me how is something that did not helped me in 6 years supposed to help me now? How much time should i waste listening to the same things and why exactly?
What will happen if i don't?

Niinja2, I am NOT telling you to join the Way.  Your catechists recommended that you start from the beginning.  The only reason he told you that is because if you did not understand the first time, you might understand the second time or third time.  When I watch the same movie three times, I am amazed to find things in the movie that I did not pick up the first time I saw it.  

When you first joined the Way, what were you expecting to happen?  What exactly did you expect the Way to do for you?   


  1. Let me also place here some of my comments to niinja2:

    Any kind of fear can prevent you from living in freedom. Living in freedom is on the top of the hierarchy of freedom, it is always above elective freedom and free will. Why? Because living in freedom is much more than elective freedom and free will. Living in freedom is the ultimate embodiment of God's will for us in both social and religious sense. When fear is imposed on you, then you are deprived from experiencing freedom.

    What kind of fear? Well this is an important question. It could be fear from
    - death
    - isolation
    - mobbing
    - being singled out
    - chastisement
    - penalty
    - discomfort
    - losing material possession
    - losing love
    - losing a loved one
    - losing salvation
    - etc.
    You see there could be a lot of fears in our lives. People can manipulate you by imposing those kind of fears on you that you are most sensitive of. Manipulation through fear can take the form of blackmailing, as well. The only way to overcome fear is to overcome those who impose fear on you. You have to turn to Jesus with your whole being, because He had never given up to fear. He is the One by whom you can overcome fear. You have to accept Him as the only authority in your life, so the harmful impact that imposes fear on you can be demolished.

  2. "You can leave and you might feel less pressure but one day in maybe 15 years something might happen..." This is about the fear from future. Perhaps it is the most immaterial of all, because anything could happen in the future that would build or destroy your planning. Instilling fear of future is an unfair tactics in relation to trust and love of Jesus. You should always test if Jesus would say the same thing to you. You can accept it only if you are firmly convinced that Jesus himself would say the same! That is why you need to read His Gospels and have a personal relation to Him that you keep away from harmful influence.

    "God gives you freedom of choice and when you choose freely God will remove his hand from you to let you pick that choice." This is about the fear of isolation from God and from His love. This is quite serious as no Christian would ever want to be separated from Jesus who is the source of our confidence. People who think that God simply equals to the Father cannot understand this. Because God is not only the Father, but also the Son who is Jesus and the Holy Spirit Jesus promised and sent to us at Pentecost!

    "Catechists simply have some kind of influence which make people submissive in their prescience." Now this is something you have to come completely clean about: is this influence man made or God made? Is the impact on you bringing you apart from or closer to Jesus? Is this authority you experience in the presence of the catechists harmful or beneficial on you? Is the feeling of submission that overwhelms you, is this feeling forced on you or is it coming naturally by some internal approval of righteousness? Would it let you down or lift you up? Would Jesus want to have the same impact on you? If you can discern the answers to these questions then you would know immediately how to respond.

    1. ZoltanJune 3, 2015 at 3:46 PM

      "Would it let you down or lift you up? Would Jesus want to have the same impact on you? If you can discern the answers to these questions then you would know immediately how to respond."

      I agree with you now for the most part.
      The point is that for a neocat catechists become Jesus that discerns for you what is right and what is wrong. Bible can be interpreted in so many ways, who knows what Jesus really meant. Catechists are there to "shine the light". People accept this and this feeling becomes a part of them.

      What is worse even if you say you feel bad about something they say or something that happens to you they reply with something like "its your sins rebelling" or do "you cannot trust yourself because you are subjective and we are objective" or "the devil is deceiving you".

      I think that many of neocats are actually quite confused about what to feel and about what is right. Some of them just accept pain they suffer from the demands their leaders put on them as one part of the cross they need to bear.

      This is one of the worse things that happen in NCW. People are constantly trying to convince you that you do not know the truth , they are the ones that do.
      On NCW truth is determined by the authority of a figure not actual observations or what the bible says. The authority figure tells you what the bible actually says. If you disagree with authority figure you are told you are deceived by the devil , no procedure is taken to see if this accusation is true. The accuser can basically make stuff up and if you try to defend yourself you just bury yourself deeper because defending yourself goes against the deep rooted belief, that we are all guilty sinners. This is one form of abuse that happens on NCW.
      I do not know if you have noticed but some neocats are quite obsessed with authority figures as the only valid standard of what is true.

      The idea that you do not know the truth is further supported by the idea that your view of yourself is subjective and therefore possibly wrong and others see you objectively and therefore what they say about you is always true.
      The fact is that you have a perception that understands yourself from within which others do not see. Others have a perception which perceives you from outside that you do not see. They are both subjective because they do not take into account the whole perception of you inside and out.

      This is one part of conditioning through which people on NCW loose control over their lives, it happens by redefining the standard in which people discern what is truth...

  3. Hi Diana,
    Are Neo members required to attend the Saturday liturgy? Can they attend a parish Mass on Sunday if they have something planned for Saturday?
    Eleanor Aguon

    1. Dear Eleanor Aguon,

      There are times I could not make it to the Mass on Saturday night, so I attend the Mass on Sunday morning. Members of the Way are encouraged to attend the Sunday Mass once a month, but there are some in my community who attend Mass every day including Sunday Mass in the parish.

    2. Why is it not possible to evangelize at a concert?

      Why couldn't a Christian go to the concert, and still fulfill their Sunday obligation to attend Mass?

      It makes no sense. This is a false dichotomy

    3. Dear Anonymous at 11:43 pm,

      You asked: "Why couldn't a Christian go to the concert, and still fulfill their Sunday obligation to attend Mass?

      The NCW is an itinerary of Christian formation. How are Christians formed? It is always easy to say they love God, but when it comes to choosing between a music concert and a Eucharist, many people prefer to choose both. How can Christians be formed to love God and only God when they decide that they can have can have their cake and eat it too.

      If a wife asks her husband to fix the roof because it's leaking, and he says to his wife, "Yes, I will fix it, but I want to watch the football game on TV first. After the football game, I will fix the roof." What is going through the wife's mind when she hears that response from her husband.

      If a husband cannot sacrifice a football game to please his wife, then how is he fulfilling the biblical passage that says "husbands, love your wife as Christ loves the Church." Christ sacrificed His life for His bride, and this husband cannot even sacrifice a football game for his wife??? True love is about sacrifice. Between the Eucharist and a music concert, I think the Eucharist is far more important even if I have to miss the music concert. How can a Christian be formed if he can have his cake and eat it too? In other words, how can he learn about sacrifice?


    I asked how is it possible that we become slaves under the influence of sin but not under the influence of fear of death.

    You replied:
    "It is because of Original Sin that we have a weakened nature, which makes us tend to sin...."

    You said nothing about influence of fear of death on slavery in that comment. So i made a semi sarcastic comment. This is the first thing you cited in this post from me and i will mark it here as (1) and it starts as "So it appears that people have weakened..." Here i basically mock the idea you imply ,which is that fear of death cannot make us slaves.

    Then you respond posting everything here and you do not answer how does fear of death makes someone a slave which was my actual question, which means you still imply that fear of death cannot make anyone a slave.
    You do say though:
    "Furthermore, I never said that we should not fear death because we are creatures of spirit. I said that as Christians we do not need to fear death because Christ conquered death thereby giving us access to eternal life in Heaven. "

    My comment about spirits was sarcastic. But according to your response WE MIGHT AS SWELL BE CREATURES OF SPIRIT that do not feel threatened by death because Christ dealt with that.

    (1) So to conclude: How does one become slave under the influence of fear from death? You reply with :He does not because Christ saved us from that. You only become a slave to sin. This implies that American black slaves were not really slaves.


    Although you did reply on May 31, 2015 at 7:35 AM at the linked post:
    "A slave also has choices. They can choose to obey their master, rebel against their master, commit suicide, or choose to run away to Canada."
    So here you are talking about some kind of a slave who is a real slave with a human master, not a slave of sin. Which is in contradiction with the responses you made in (1) which say people can be enslaved ONLY by sin, not by other people through fear.
    So it appears to me that you are in CONTRADICTION with some things you wrote earlier and that you are the one WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what you are saying.

    You said:
    "When the Catechist tell you that it is more important that you attend the Eucharist rather than a music concert...that is not a threat."
    Yes this is true. But its not what the catechists told that women and its not what i wrote. You took it out of context. I wrote on May 27, 2015 at 11:15 PM at the posted link:
    " they told her that she should stop with her concerts and then said "Jesus is saying that"or something bad is going to happen if she does not."
    That is a threat.

    You said:
    "Nowhere in my comments did I ever say that I felt forced. I specifically stated that YOU are trying to FORCE others to accept your views and only your views. "
    Who are those others whom i am supposedly forcing? I am talking only to you, so it is you who are those "others" and it is you who felt forced. There are no "other" that i forced anything in this discussion.
    Why do you play this word game i can only assume but this answer is not actually relevant other then to show your way of thinking.

    I did not force you to accept my view i forced you to answer questions or concede you are wrong. And since you enter a public space in a debate you can expect to be asked to answer questions. This is not forcing anyone to accept a certain belief.

    " Apparently, you must feel some deep frustration in the NCW, but I do not think it has to do with the catechists. I think your frustration was.."
    Whether i am frustrated with NCW is irrelevant for the debate.

    1. Dear Niinja2,

      You say many things that contradict what you say. For example, you stated: " I asked how is it possible that we become slaves under the influence of sin but not under the influence of fear of death."

      However, on June 2, at 6:51 am, you stated: "I am not talking about slavery caused by influence of sin , i am talking about slavery CAUSED BY INFLUENCE OF OTHER PEOPLE."

      So, apparently you are confused because you contradict yourself. First, you say that you are talking about slavery caused by influence of other people.......and now here you say that you are speaking about being a slave caused by influence of fear of death. Therefore, as a result of your contradicting statements, which jumps from one subject to another subject, the rest of your comments will not be published. I am sorry but this type of dialogue only goes around in circles.

  5. To Niinja2,

    I already said that I will no longer publish any of your comments if you persist in making these roundabout questions, which have already been answered. You spoke about slavery influenced by people. I already stated that there is a difference between people and sin. God loves the sinners, but not the sins. The real enemy is the devil who tempts people to sin. I also told you that feeling fear of death is NOT a sin. It is a normal emotion.

    I also told you that when a Catechists tells you that doing good and negative things has consequences, there is truth there rather than a threat. Always choosing the music concerts over attending the Eucharist can be bad for your soul. The NCW is an itinerary of Christian formation. So, how can a Christian be formed when they can decide to have their cake and eat it too? It is so easy for anyone to say they love God; yet, when the Catechists tests them, they cannot do it. True love is about sacrifice. Christ sacrificed his life because He loves us. And here we are. Rather than sacrificing something for Christ, we would rather have our cake and eat it too. So, how do you form people into becoming Christians if they decide that rather than sacrifice, they can have their cake and eat it too. In other words, how do you expect people to learn about sacrifice?

    1. Dear Diana, I do not think it is useful at this point to silence niinja2. When we have the truth at our hands, as I believe we do have, we should never get tired of sharing this truth as often as needed. niinja2 was forthcoming with his reasons to quit the Way. He felt enormous pressure on her/him by the catechists that made him feel like the Way was operated as a cult. We should address this issue honestly and in all details in order to dispel the misconception of a cult. I told niinja2 that his perception of pressure might have come from a misunderstanding of the role of catechists. (S)he thinks of them as rulers rather than advisors. But if Jesus is the only Ruler then the catechists are more like advisors than decision makers in your life.

      niinja2 claims (s)he was instilled with fears, including fear of death and fear of separation from the love of God. Is this true? I don't know, but (s)he definitely shows signs of genuine fear that has been developed in her/him during the years. These kind of fears may just simply be there without knowledge and any intention of the catechists. Still, it is true that you cannot live in fear and live in freedom. Jesus never wanted us to live in fear but to live in freedom.

      We got so many gifts from God. There is not a single cell in our mind or brain that is not from our Creator! Talents, like in music, arts, etc. should be nourished because they come from God and not from human beings. When you work on your talent, play or listen to music for example, then you put God first, because it was Him who wanted you to be talented. Jesus tells us that we are unfaithful servants if we do not nurture and increase our talents. Why? Because we are to manage our God given gifts wisely. If we miss that opportunity then even the little talent remained will be taken away from us.

      Slavery is also a tricky issue, because it definitely has different meaning in social and religious context. There are sad stories when young ladies are invited to other countries with lucrative job offers, but when they arrive, they are captured with paperwork and passport confiscated. Their whole lives become dependent on fear and submission. These young ladies, completely at the wish of their captors, are then forced to make money by prostitution that they cannot keep. It is a modern day slavery in social and existential sense imposed by fear and ruthless people. You may argue that it is also a slavery in religious sense as it is the sin of other people that enslaves these unfortunate your ladies.

    2. Dear Zoltan,

      If Niinja2 feels that he has received death threats, then he should report to the police. By law, death threats are illegal. I have not yet heard the catechists side of the story whether what Niinja2 says is true. It is possible that it may all be a misunderstanding between him and the catechists or it could be that he wanted something from the catechists and they refuse to give it to him.

  6. If you did want me to respond and keep debating maybe you should have not posted my comments on the top page of your blog...
    And its rude that you did that and not let me post my comments.

    But otherwise thank you have shown what NCW is really about.

    1. Dear Niinja2,

      I posted your comment and my response to your comment. I said that the fear of death is NOT a sin, but a normal emotion. Then you come back and the first thing you say is: "You said nothing about influence of fear of death on slavery in that comment". Regardless of whether a person is a slave or not, the fear of death is still not a sin. Apparently, you prefer that I say something else??

  7. " When you work on your talent, play or listen to music for example, then you put God first, because it was Him who wanted you to be talented."


    I will concede the possibility that the community you are in does not have cult like behavior. But mine sure did have. And when i left NCW i felt and understood that to really praise God is to became the best possible replica of Him here on earth. And to do that i need to develop my own talents and my own identity by myself. I felt that when i left i was finally free to receive Gods influence which those people were shadowing by pretending to be Gods prophets.

  8. In light of all of this, just wanted to share a link to an interesting article on Pope Francis' recent approach to CATECHESIS. Ive noticed that the Popes heart is together with the NCW on many levels. I guess birds of a feather do flock together. Thankful to be CATHOLIC.

    1. This has nothing to do with the NCW. The pope doesn't mention heretical sects

    2. Dear Anonymous at 11:32 am,

      Since when did the Pope ever said that the NCW is heretical?

  9. Diana i did not even read all this post but i read the part about the music concert and the eucharist.. and i just wanted to say, that 1) you yourself had told me catechists should not speak about non spiritual matters. 2) ok maybe going to the Eucharist is a spiritual matter true, BUT not going to the NCW eucharist does not mean you are not choosing God and choosing the concert instead. Here is from where the rumors start.. 'they are forced to go to the eucharist and thus build a church parallel to the church' .. this is a clear example from where people come up with these things.. and i have to say it is a worrying thing unfortunately, because try as much as he can, Kiko can NEVER be better than the Church i.e. the NCW can never be more important than the church, because it is only one way, like many many others, no matter how many members testify that it changed their lives.
    Thus no, choosing a music concert over the NCW Eucharist is nothing wrong, because the Church gave us the possibility of choosing (actually God did because we have a free will) which mass we go to, and when as long as it is from saturday evening to sunday. So if I want to go to a concert and im in the NCW, no the catechist should not tell me, dont go, or you should come to the eucharist, I am free to go to another mass which I find fulfilling and meaningful to me.
    IF there is a situation where the NCW mass is the only mass available throughout the whole saturday to sunday, then yes only then will it be the responsibility of the catechists to encourage all the catholics to go to the mass instead of anywhere else.

    But this balance is what is missing from the NCW. Everything is either black and white for the catechists, and unfortunately it is not.

    1. do we chose to follow Jesus Christ? YES or NO

      No gray area here unless one is Catholic LITE

    2. Dear Keith,

      The NCW is an itinerancy of Christian formation. Those who join the NCW are formed to become true Christians in which God will be put first. In the NCW, we only celebrate ONE Mass for a reason. The parish Mass, on the other hand, has MORE than one Mass to accommodate people's schedule. So, if a person cannot make it to the eight o'clock Mass because they have a game to go to, he/she can go to the eleven o'clock Mass.

      In the NCW, we teach people how to sacrifice for Christ, which is why we only have one Mass. You choose whether you want to go to the music concert or to the Eucharist. In other words, we are teaching Christians that you cannot have your cake and it too. You need to choose either God (which is the Mass) or the music concert. We are here to form Christians so they can put God first. In the Way, people learn about up what they want and putting God first.

      Now, how does the parish teach the people about sacrifice? They don't. They have more than one Mass to accommodate people's schedule so that they can have their cake and eat it too. They can do what they want to do and still go to Mass because they have more than one Mass. They do not learn about sacrifice or putting God first.

    3. we have differences of what is means to "put God first"
      If i say i put my work first it means i work alot, if i say i put my children first it means i spend much time with them. If i say i put my family first it means that when i need to chose between family, eucharist, or work i chose family. The problem with putting "God" first" is that it can be anything. I mean its not like if you put God first that you go and sit with God and drink coffee with him and have a conversation. Its very unclear what it means to "put God first" because this can be anything. From volunteering to killing infidels like in the crusades.

      Who is the one who is to judge and by what standard how an individual is supposed to serve God?

      In your example serving God means only to be present on the Eucharist. I find this simplified and poor. I mean did Jesus died so 2000 years later so the highlight of his sacrifice and our existence is so we could sit in the church?

    4. Dear Niinja2,

      There is no difference on what it means to "put God first." He is either "first" or not.

      Again, I will repeat myself. The NCW is an itinerary of Christian formation. Its purpose is to form Christians in that they put God first and foremost in their lives. So, if you chose to walk in the Way, we only have one Eucharist. As I said, there is a REASON why we celebrate only one Eucharist, and part of that reason is for Christians to learn sacrifice.

      However, since you have left the Way, you now attend the parish Mass. You can choose to have BOTH things you like, which is to attend your music concert and the Eucharist.

    5. "There is no difference on what it means to "put God first." He is either "first" or not. "

      I am not talking about this and my comment is clear enough.

      You serve Him by going to Eucharist.
      Zoltan serves Him by developing talents.
      Someone else serves him by volunteering.
      And so on...
      There is a difference on what it means to serve God.
      And this can't get any clearer.

    6. Having the two things is not wrong, and see, this is where you are wrong. You think the best way to do things is the ncw way. I'm sorry to break it to you but it isn't. The church has to provide many masses because our lives are not only about going to mass. Talking from experience I like to change the mass i go to sometimes and I sometimes go to an earlier one or a later one, or a completely different one, because I know that the whole day of sunday is for God, and if i have to go on Saturday (which isn't even the specific day we should go to mass) to a concert I know that as a Catholic i can go to this concert and make a difference. For example by not drinking that I become drunk is a simple but powerful example. That is control of the body as much as not making out with someone you just met is for example. There I would also be living as a good christian.
      Sacrifices are important yes, but unnecessary sacrifices are well unnecessary and can do more harm than good.
      Let me give another example- due to the mass on Saturday the youths go out not at clubs afterwards which is good (they are told by the catechists not to go) .. But then during the week they go to the clubs just the same, and if they want to look at girls they do, if they want to make out with a girl they do, if they want to get drunk they do, so explain to me how sacrifice works for the ncw, because all i see is a very restrictive kind of sacrifice where the only sacrifice i see is going to everything ncw labeled and then you can do whatever yo uwant afterwards doesn't matter. If you sin go and confess then, but as long as you come to everything ncw you are making the necessary sacrifices and you are a good christian.
      And please don't tell me 'because we are weak christians and christians are sinners' - that's an excuse all christians say not to control themselves and make sacrifices, if we truly have God with us we have the power to overcome evil with Him for sure,

    7. Dear Keith,

      Of course, having two good things is not wrong. The point I am trying to make is which of those two good things come first? When you have a good and bad thing, it is easier to choose, but when you have two good things, which one would you put first?

      If the Church were to provide only one Mass, how many would actually attend? Not many. Why? Because the Church today provides many Masses, and the attendance in the Church has been dwindling. Church attendance has decreased over the years. In our secular world, God is no longer first. Other things became more important than God.

      You ask: " so explain to me how sacrifice works for the ncw,"

      There is something in the NCW that is being done right. Why? Because we have mission families who can sacrifice everything to evangelize for Christ. We have itinerants who are doing the same thing. We have youths who are participating in the World Youth Day by the hundreds of thousands. We have youths who can pay attention in Mass for two hours and even stay up in night vigils for six hours. We have young men who are sacrificing their desire for families and wanting to become priests. We have young girls who are also doing the same.

      Of course, we are still sinners. But what I mentioned above are the testimonies from the NCW.

    8. But tell me what good it is if the youths sent to the youth days come back home or even while on the journey itself do drugs, and other things when they aren't 'absorbed' in the functions of the ncw or the youth day itself. If families who go to evangelize end up leaving their family broken, if large families end up neglecting one of their children at an early stage to have another baby. Where is the sacrifice there? When in the 20 or so year journey of the ncw are people taught to live their life outside the church, in their work environment, with friends, with the poor, giving more than they get, fighting injustice.. These are all very important catholic values which unfortunately I continue to see even though I left the ncw and this to me is not true love, it is a restrictive part, a very simplistic part of our faith, which has to be matured. That is all i want fromthe leaders of the ncw, to mature their techniques to bring even better Catholics, and not half taught catholics, which then pretend to be better than the church.

    9. And do not keep saying that the ncw is approved by the church as a sort of whatever kiko decides is right and therefore whatever the catechists do is right please, it's very childish. The Charismatic Movement is also fully approved by the church but in the audience he had with them he gave recommendations like the pope did to the ncw last year. Unfortunately no one seems took notice of them from the ncw, i cannot talk about the charistmatics since I've never been a part.

    10. Hey, I am not a sinner. If you are a sinner, it means you keep sinning doesn't matter how much you try to do otherwise. But this is not true. Not everybody is that weak. I for one am not a sinner. I try to avoid and DO avoid sinning. Don't you? I am praying to God to help me to be strong and avoid the near occasion of sin. I pray this each time at confession smf I mean it. You say I am weakened by the original sin. It might be true. I am not an Abel, who was completely clean and died without ever sinning. But I do not keep sinning without control as you assume.

      Why do you accuse everybody by committing sin? The holy saints of the Catholic church were not sinners. If you sin once in a while, you are still not a sinner. We have to resist the temptation and not give in to temptation. This makes a huge difference. Jesus said to the adulterous woman go and sin no more. St Paul says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus". He is not saying we are sinners. He is saying that we have sinned. That is different. Do you understand the difference?

      So let me ask you, please, give me a break, I am not a sinner. If you are, then judge yourself. But please, do now ever judge anyone else, because it is a very un-Christian thing. Thank you very much.

    11. Dear Keith,

      You say that the Charismatic Movement is also fully approved by the Church; therefore, what makes you think that the NCW is not. The NCW is not excommunicated from the Church. We have the full support of the Pope, which means that we are approved.

    12. Dear Keith at 9:58 pm,

      There is no guarantee in life, but we do know that a person can stop being an alcoholic, a drug addict, etc with God......because with God all things are possible. When Kiko spent time in the Shanty towns in Madrid, he spent them with alcoholics, child abusers, and prostitutes. These are the poor in the Shanty towns. What attracted Pope John Paul II and other Bishops was the changes that took place in the Shanty towns. The alcoholics stopped drinking. The child abusers got an education and stopped abusing their children. The prostitutes found decent work instead of selling their bodies. It is much easier for the poor to change for the better. It is much easier for them to find Christ because they did not have much to begin with.

      It is much harder for people like us to make those kinds of changes because we are not living in poverty as those in the Shanty twons. Most of us are educated people with decent jobs. But that does not mean I am better than they are. I am also a sinner. Although I am not a child abuser, but there are times I have been angry at my children. But our conversions are much more difficult than those living in poverty.

    13. Diana, you wrote on 6/6 at 6:48AM that "In the NCW, we teach people how to sacrifice for Christ, which is why we only have one Mass."

      Are you saying that there is only ONE NCW Mass for all those in the NCW to attend? Someone told me that the Cathedral Bulletin lists a 7:30 PM Saturday NCW Mass. And someone else told me that the archbishop has his own Mass but at his house not at the Cathedral. So it sounds like there are at least 2 Masses for NCWs to choose from. So is there only one NCW Mass? Or are there two?

      Also, are you saying that the archbishop is wrong to allow the non-NCW Catholics to have multiple Masses to choose from?
      I think the archbishop can order that there be only ONE Mass, or maybe two since there are more non-NCWs than NCWs, so that the non-NCWs will learn to sacrifice like the NCWs do. Right?

      BTW: Someone heard Tim Rohr say that he drives all the way from Agat to attend the ONE AND ONLY Latin Mass that is available on Sunday at the Friary. I think that's a pretty big sacrifice.

    14. Dear Anonymous at 10:30 am,

      All the NCW mass starts at 7:30 pm on Saturday. I am saying that the Church has accommodated people's schedule. Gone are also the midnight masses of Christmas and New Year. These midnight masses have turned into night masses that usually starts early......and again, all to accommodate people's schedules.

      That is good that there is a Latin Mass. I know that Pope John Paul II got rid of it at one time. It was later reinstated by Pope Benedict. I think the Latin Mass is a good thing despite that very few people attend it. The Mass is often called a sacrifice, and that is true.

    15. Dear Niinja2 at 12:42 pm,

      There is a difference between "serving God" and "putting Him first". I was referring to putting God first when it comes to choosing between two good things.

    16. Yes exactly both movements are fully approved but one need just listen to the pope talking to both the movements last year and listen to the 'recommendations' he gave to the NCW and the things he told the charistmatics to correct.. I say this to show you that no matter if the whole church approves all the books and directories of all the movements in the world, it does not make them perfect, but they will still all have mistakes to arrange. Being approved means simply approved. It does not mean the movement is immaculate and no changes are necessary to make it better. So yes every movement needs to change and listen to the Pope's and the Church's words because as they approved the movement they can also disapprove it.

      I agree with your second answers however that was not my point, my point is that why do people, mostly the children of those who chose to be in the NCW need to and are made to have a difficult life and one which can lead to the things we mentioned, in order for them to be pulled down and they would then have to turn to God because they have no choice. That is to put it simply, cheating and wrong. If a person who is going to the ncw with his family in the ncw because some years ago they felt they needed help in their faith because they were weak, why should that person be made to go through all the passages again? because that is why there is the emphasis on sins etc in the beginning of a community to make sure that everyone is feeling like he's a sinner, and to feel he had all the wrong ideas about faith no matter if they were right or not. That is why then all can 'grow' together, because they have been broken together. That is the psychology and why the catechists try to stop members from going to psychologists or stop them from saying they attend a movement like the ncw.

    17. Dear Keith,

      The changes have already been made. You are correct. No one is perfect, but the NCW remains close to the Pope and follows his recommendations.

      If you want to know why the Catechists do not allow its members to go to a psychologists, you should ask the Catechists themselves rather than taking the word of someone who said he/she heard it from them. It would be fair and reasonable to hear their side and not only one side of the story. You might even be surprise to fiend that they never said such a thing. Who know.....unless you speak to them and hear their side.

    18. Diana - On June 3, 2015 at 10:42 pm, you wrote that sometimes you can't make it to the Saturday night mass and so you attend the Sunday morning mass. Didn't you just say that the NCW has only one mass because they teach you how to sacrifice for Christ?

    19. Dear Anonymous at 11:28 pm,

      Yes, on those times that I miss the Saturday evening Mass, I was either very sick or have a sick child to tend to. I did not have any music concerts to go to.

    20. "have a sick child to tend to"

      You have made your children idols. You should have gone to Eucharist.

    21. Dear Anonymous at 10:58 am,

      Neglecting a sick child is a sin. If I neglected my sick child to go to the community's Eucharist, then the community becomes the idol. God should always come first even before the community. The community should not be a social club.

  10. Anon @ 11:32am

    The Pope nor the Author of the article need mention the NCW. If youve been to any Catechesis offered by the NCW you would understand. Its about the approach, the content remains the same in so far as to Church Teachings. You can hear a Gospel proclaimed over and over, many times, and each time a different message is perceived but at the end of the day it all comes down to the one important truth of the Love that God has for you. Nothing Heretical in that.

  11. Diana you said:
    "It is much harder for people like us to make those kinds of changes because we are not living in poverty as those in the Shanty twons. Most of us are educated people with decent jobs."

    Keith did not ask you why is it harder for us to convert then for alcoholics and prostitutes, he asked you why does the Way teach that serving God is only serving NCW and not alcoholics and prostitutes for example.

    " I was referring to putting God first when it comes to choosing between two good things. "

    This is not what i asked you in the comment you responded to. You often refer to questions you are not asked.

    1. Dear Niinja2,

      These are the questions Keith asked, which I placed in quote:

      "my point is that why do people, mostly the children of those who chose to be in the NCW need to and are made to have a difficult life and one which can lead to the things we mentioned, in order for them to be pulled down and they would then have to turn to God because they have no choice."

  12. "When in the 20 or so year journey of the ncw are people taught to live their life outside the church, in their work environment, with friends, with the poor, giving more than they get, fighting injustice."

    This was his question

    1. niinja2....who is feeding you this?


  13. Dear Diana, can you tell us how you and your community celebrated the Holy feast of Corpus Christi? And what that feast means to you personally?

    1. Dear Anonymous at 11:22 am,

      Corpus Christi means the Body of Christ. We believe that the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. We believe in transubstantiation.