Friday, June 26, 2015

Kiko Arguello's 2006 Letter

In 2006, Kiko wrote a "thank you" letter to Pope Benedict XVI.  This letter was twisted and misconstrued by those who oppose the NCW.  Nowhere in Kiko's letter did he say that he would disobey the Pope.  According to the letter: 

"We also wish to thank you for the benevolence, mercy, and goodness You have shown to those farthest away in allowing the moving of the sign of peace and in granting a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Communion of the Body and the Blood of the Lord: we have always shown to the many brothers who have emerged from hell, full of wounds and of self-loathing, that in the Holy Eucharist the Lord makes present his love, dying and rising for them; and not only that, but prepares a table, an eschatological banquet, which makes Heaven present and where He himself, full of love, has them sit down and comes to serve them: “He will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them” (Lk 12:37)."

First of all, as anyone can see above, Kiko THANKED the Pope for two things in the above paragraph of his letter: 1) for moving the sign of peace, AND 2) for granting them a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Communion of the Body and Blood of Christ. 

Kiko acknowledged his gratitude when the Pope moved the sign of peace and in granting a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ.  A colon punctuation was used after he expressed his gratitude.  In grammatical usage, a colon punctuation is used between independent clauses when the second sentence explains or expands on the first sentence such as the following: 

 He got what he worked for: he really earned that promotion.

See the explanation here.

Kiko was explaining or expanding more on what those adaptions were regarding the distribution of the Body and Blood of Christ.  Furthermore, this was how Kiko ended his letter: 

Thank You, Your Holiness! Together with the Cardinals and the many Bishops who have supported us, and above all in the name of the many who were far away and today bless Christ, we thank You with our whole heart.

Asking for Your Apostolic Blessing,

Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández, Fr. Mario Pezzi


The end of his letter showed an expression of joy and happiness because of the support they received.  If there had been no support, there would not have been a thank you letter as well. Common sense dictates that one does not give a thank you letter to someone who gave no support.  That letter was written in 2006.  In 2007, we know that Kiko Arguello and Pope Benedict XVI continued to have private meetings with each other.  According to news report: 

According to Giuseppe Gennarini, this way of receiving Communion sprang from a private meeting between Pope Benedict XVI and Kiko Arguello on May 26, 2007. The Holy Father liked the idea of the priest coming to each person with the Eucharist because it shows that Christ comes to you in the person of the priest, Gennarini said. 

Private Meetings with Pope

In 2008, the Statues were approved, and a new way of receiving the Body of Christ was introduced in the Way.  In other words, there was a change.  We received the Body of Christ standing, then we sit down and contemplate on His Body.  We consume the Body of Christ together sitting down.  That was the change.  Previously, we would receive the Body of Christ sitting down and consume His body together in a sitting position. 

How the NCW celebrate the Eucharist was NEVER kept a secret.  If Kiko and the NCW were deliberately being disobedient, why didn't they hide it?  Even a thief would not reveal his crime in the open.  The NCW never kept the way they celebrated their Eucharist a secret; therefore, everyone knew how the Eucharist was celebrated.  As a result of that openess, complaints poured into the Vatican accusing the Way of celebrating the Mass illicitly.   

As a matter of fact, in 2009, some of the Bishops in Japan closed the Way's seminary and wanted to expel the Neocatechumenal Way from Japan.  Despite complaints coming in, Pope Benedict XVI intervened and rejected the plan to expel the NCW from Japan.  According to news report:

Alvaro de Juana Hernandez, a spokesman for the Way told CNA Jan. 12 that Pope Benedict XVI had rejected the bishops’ plan. During the meeting, he said, "the Holy See communicated that the Neocatechumenal Way cannot be suspended, cannot be thrown out or taken out of Japan."

Pope rejects plan of Japanese Bishops

The Holy See said that the NCW cannot be suspended, cannot be thrown out or taken out of Japan.  The same would be true of Guam as well.  Nevertheless, as more complaints poured into the Vatican, Pope Benedict  XVI ordered an investigation to determine whether these complaints were actually true.  The investigation was ordered on April 11, 2012.  Thanks to the NCW who have never kept their Eucharistic celebration a secret, those investigations should be very easy to conduct.

On February 28, 2013, Pope Benedict XVI resigned. Almost a year had gone by and nothing came out from the investigation. On March 13, 2013, Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected Pope and took the name Francis.  A few months later, Pope Francis ceased all investigations on the Neocatechumenal Way that Pope Benedict XVI had started.  

Then on February 2014, Pope Francis confirmed Kiko Arguello for five more years as Consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity.  On March 6, 2015, Pope Francis gave the NCW his strongest support.  And on May 16, 2015, Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez received an honorary doctorate from the Catholic University of America. 

So, to those who oppose the Way and think that we are celebrating the Mass illicitly, continue to write your letters of complaint to the Vatican.  Your complaints are simply old news to the ears of the Vatican.  We have already given our answer.  We have the permission from the Pope to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do and are not in violation of it.  But if you do not believe us, then take it up with the Vatican because you have no authority over the NCW. 

119 comments:

  1. What is the status of the Neos in Lingayen-Dagupan where Archbishop Socrates Villegas is said to have placed a moratorium on the formation of new communities a couple of years ago. Is that moratorium still in effect?

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:54 pm,

      I do not know if the moratorium is still in effect. But the Philippines has 700 NCW communities.

      Delete
  2. Thankyou to Fr Pius for this explanation. Its not enough though. This is how you come across as disingenuous.

    The interview/article you quote where Gennarini says what he says was in July 2008, after the promulgation of the Statutes. Mr Gennarini details the "changes" that have taken place in the way the NCW conduct the mass - namely, that the faithful do not receive communion around the altar, but now go back to their places, and the priest/deacon comes to them. This article refers to the old way as being "seated", and implies that this has changed. But why does Mr Gennarini never describe the actual way the NCW will receive communion after the new Statutes. If it were sop "open" as you claim, why does he not say that you will continue to sit? Why does he not say that this direction was also given in a "private meeting" with the Pope? Because it never happened, thats why.

    Also, the "private meetings" occurred prior to the Statutes being release, but as you can see, they only had effect once the Statutes were promulgated. In other words, everyone knows that "private" discussions are not sufficient to vary the rubrics of the Mass, which is why they were incorporated into the Statutes.

    Finally, when you read the section of the article on the place of the NCW in relation to the parish you would think that something substantial had changed:

    "Another change that can be found in the new statutes is the incorporation of the Neocatechumenal Way’s liturgies into the larger parish community. Prior to the new rules, the Way celebrated its liturgies on Saturday evenings separate from the rest of the parish, so as to preserve the integrity of the process of conversion that all of its members undertake. However, the Way’s Masses must now be "part of the Sunday liturgical service of the parish," and "open to other members of the faithful as well." "

    But we all know that this aspect is exactly the same as it always has been - the Eucharist of the NCW is held outside of the Church building in a quasi-private, rarely advertised setting, and few, if not no, other members of the faithful are able to attend. Not to mention that the right of every member of trhe faithful to receive communion on the tongue is violated in these celebrations.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 10:15 pm,

      First of all, I am not Father Pius.

      Secondly, I am not going through answering the same questions over and over....especially when the Archbishop and the NCW already stated that we have permission to celebrate our Eucharist the way we celebrate it.

      In the third place, the NCW never kept their Eucharistic celebration a secret.

      Finally, if you feel that the NCW is in violation, write to Vatican. You have no authority to tell us to change the way we celebrate the Eucharist.

      Delete
    2. Dear Diana, I didn't claim you were Fr Pius. I merely thanked him for the explanation posted above. Secondly, you can't go "over and over" the same answers, because you have never answered them. For example how about seriously answering:

      "But why does Mr Gennarini never describe the actual way the NCW will receive communion after the new Statutes. If it were so "open" as you claim, why does he not say that you will continue to sit? Why does he not say that this direction was also given in a "private meeting" with the Pope?"

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    3. Thirdly, what proportion of the NCW Eucharists are advertised in parish newsletters? What proportion are, in reality, open to other faithful. Isn't it true that, in your opinion, the entire edifice of the NCW would be under threat if members of the general Catholic community began to attend the NCW Eucharists?

      Finally, can you please point out where I claimed authority to tell us to change the way you celebrate the Eucharist?

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    4. Anon @10:15

      I would like to add that in all my study of the GIRM and other publications in relation to the Liturgy it is quite apparent that one thing is to be promoted at every Celebration, and that is UNITY.
      I have never been to any Eucharist other than that in the NCW where UNITY is paramount. It is evident in the mere singing of the Psalms and other songs, the entire community sings, not just the choir, in fact, there is no choir. The entire community stands together, you do not find some standing and some kneeling. If one is sitting then almost certain that all are sitting. All are giving the same kiss of peace, you dont have a few shaking hands, a few waving "peace" signs, a few just smiling, these dont exist. All receive the Holy Eucharist on the hand and then sit to consume. You wont find some standing, some kneeling, some on the tongue, some on the hand. Wheres the unity in that?
      So you decide, what Liturgy, what celebration follows more obedience to the GIRM?
      Like Diana suggested, Write Rome.
      The Eucharist has never been a secret, maybe it was perceived to be but is there justice in perceiving things. Then again, and the latest chaos proves right. We'd rather believe the shit that comes from the mouths of arrogant beings than the truth that comes from those who have chosen to live according to the formation of the NCW.
      You decide.
      -Jokers Wild

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 12:26 am,

      That information did not come from Father Pius. It came from me. Gennarini was being interviewed by the news media who only asked him specific questions They did not ask him to go over every single detail in the Eucharist.

      We did not continue to sit. As I said, there was a change. The change is that we stand to receive the Body of Christ, then sit and consume HIs Body together. As I said before, the way we celebrate the Mass is very similar to the concelebration Mass found in the GIRM.

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    6. Dear Anonymous at 12:29 am,

      If a person is really interested in attending the NCW Eucharist, they would simply ask. And no, we would not be under threat if the general Catholic community decide to attend the NCW Eucharist, but that is NOT reality. The reality is many of the general Catholic community cannot stand being in Mass for even one hour that some of them leave right after Holy Communion, and do not even wait until the blessing. Many others leave before the final song ended.

      The NCW Mass is two hours long. We do not leave right after Holy Communion nor before the final song.

      Delete
    7. Well I guess we will make it a reality then Diana. We will ask our priests to start posting the day and time of the NCW mass along with the rest of the masses. I wonder why they haven't been doing it.

      Delete
    8. Dear Anonymous at 9:46 am,

      If you decide to come to the NCW Mass, then come with a pure heart without any malice intention.

      Delete
  3. Diana, I would also be in crisis if the only time that I will meet Christ is between 5:30 and 11:30 Sunday afternoon. And it has to be in my favorite parish Church...nowhere else.

    Anonymous June 27, 2015 at 10:15 PM is so desperate to justify his self proclaimed righteous relationship with God that he is adamantly declaring that you Diana are another person. It just cannot be that he is mistaken. YOU HAVE TO BE FATHER PIUS.

    Had a beautiful Eucharist tonight Diana, how about you?

    JSB





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    1. Dear JSB,

      Yes, I had a beautiful Eucharist tonight. Thank you. :-)

      Delete
  4. This story would be fine if there was even one hint that it was actually true. The first question would be, why have we never heard Kiko or Carmen or Mr Gennarini or anyone else of any seniority in the NCW claim the same as you, Diana? You have said it, but you are anonymous. Why would this explanation not be given publicly by Kiko for example? The only reason I can guess is that Kiko knows its not true. Not even the Archbishop has been prepared to claim what you are claiming here. Why is that?

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 11:31 pm,

      You did not hear it because you are not walking in the Way. Do you not remember that I knew about the Rabbis asking Kiko to teach them how to transmit the faith to their children after they were impressed with the mission families of the Way. That was announced to the NCW during the Lenten Announcement on Februrary. See the weblink below:

      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/02/lenten-announcement.html

      The NCW heard about it first before it hit the news. We have been saying all along that we have the permission of Pope Benedict XVI to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. As I said, we never kept our Eucharist a secret. Investigations were launched and later dismissed by Pope Francis simply because the allegations were unfounded. However, as I said, write to the Vatican. Write your letter of complaint to them. That is the proper protocol.

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    2. You msunderstand. I said "Why would this explanation not be given publicly by Kiko for example?"

      You have not given any reasonable explanation as to why none of the senior leadership of the NCW has ever claimed this publicly. If it were true and the "Vatican" (well the pope "privately") has endorsed this method of communion, you would expect it to be made public at every opportunity. you yourself have referred to the numberous complaints made to the Vatican about the NCW Eucharist. These could be effectively rendered null and void if what you claimed were true. I smell a rat - there is no permission and they know it. You can say it because you remain anonymous. But lets see if the Archbishop is prepared to say the same. I'd put everything I own on him remaining quiet, because he knows the truth.

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    3. "However, as I said, write to the Vatican. Write your letter of complaint to them. That is the proper protocol. "

      No, the proper protocol is for the Bishop to provide guidance on these matters. He has said he would finr the document, because he knows there ought to be one, according to the proper functions of the Church. Perhaps you can tell us why he hasn't produced it yet?

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    4. Dear Anonymous at 12:24 am,

      The information was given to Kiko, but the information is not on the Internet. It was written down and given to all the Bishops and Catechists. I remember in 2008 when Father Pius was instructing us on how to receive the Body of Christ, there was a paper in front of him. I remember he said that when the Body of Christ comes to you, you stand up. This is now the new way. He was reading the instructions because I saw him looking down at a paper. In order to make certain that ALL communities do the exact same thing, it must come from a written form. Chances of human error are more likely to occur when information is passed down verbally. The only way to remove the human error is to pass the information in a written form.

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 12:32 am,

      Your Bishop has already given you the answer. Since you do not trust your Bishop, then the next step is to write to the Vatican.

      Delete
    6. Diana...First you said it was a verbal instruction and now you say it's a written form since human error is more likely to occur when information is passed down verbally. So if there is a written instruction and it was provided to all the Bishops and Catechists, why is so hard for Archbishop Apuron to produce?

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    7. Dear Anonymous at 6:16 pm,

      It was verbal instruction because I heard it from Father Pius back in 2008 during the Beginning of the Year Convivience. The Archbishop or Father Pius has the paper with the instructions. The only way that ALL communities around the ENTIRE globe can celebrate exactly the same way as we are doing now must come from a written instruction otherwise we would be celebrating it differently. I cannot speak for the Archbishop. Who knows? He probably does not want to produce it knowing that it would still be taken out of context by the jungle.

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    8. "Father Pius was instructing us on how to receive the Body of Christ, there was a paper in front of him. I remember he said that when the Body of Christ comes to you, you stand up. This is now the new way."

      What about the "sit down" part?

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    9. Dear Anonymous at 10:33 am,

      That came afterwards. Father Pius said that when the person next to you stand to receive the Body of Christ, that is your cue to stand up so you don't keep the priest waiting for you to stand. We had a practice on it. Then he said that after we receive the Body of Christ on our hand, we sit down and contemplate on His Body. We hold His Body close to our heart.

      Delete
    10. Dear Diana, this is rather extraordinary. I think we are making some progress at last.

      You said:
      "In order to make certain that ALL communities do the exact same thing, it must come from a written form. Chances of human error are more likely to occur when information is passed down verbally. The only way to remove the human error is to pass the information in a written form"

      And you are correct. This is why the Church also does the same - particularly in relation to serious matters such as the liturgy. And for this reason, it is impossible that Kiko received private, verbal permissions to make changes to the approved rubrics of the Mass.

      So either Kiko has been given written permissions for those variations that are not explicit in the statutes, and has not passed them on - or he has never actually received the claimed permissions (eg to sit down), but has instructed the communities himself in a letter to the catechists etc.

      Delete
    11. Dear Anonymous at 12:05 pm,

      Did you ever wonder why there were so many different liturgies in the western and eastern Church? On the contrary, Kiko did receive verbal instructions from the Pope. He and the Pope had private meetings before the statutes were approved. Giving instructions to one person is not the problem. The problem was ensuring that all communities get the same instruction. I heard Father Pius say that the instructions came from Kiko who received it from the Pope.

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    12. "The only way to remove the human error is to pass the information in a written form"

      Do you think the Church doesn't know this? Have you ever wondered why the Church issues clear instructions such as the GIRM? Because everyone knows that if you rely on verbal instructions only, it s a cause for confusion and scandal. This is exactly what we are observing here. Apparently, in your view, the Pope doesn't care about that.

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    13. Dear Anonymous at 3:27 pm,

      The fact that all NCW communities are celebrating EXACTLY in the same way already shows that written instructions were given to the Bishops and International Catechists. In other words, how we celebratep the Eucharist on Guam is exactly the same in Italy. Therefore, the written instructions are found in the Vatican, with Kiko, and the Head Catechists and Bishops. We have been telling you that we have the permission of the Pope. But if you do not believe the Archbishop or the NCW, your only recourse of action would be to write to the Vatican. The NCW cannot follow you because it was already given its instruction from the Pope.

      The fact that Pope Francis ceased all investigations into the NCW shows that those allegations were unfounded. I am certain that Pope Francis takes his position as Pope seriously. He is not going to dismiss the investigation started by Pope Benedict XVI without first looking at it first.

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    14. Ah, just a minute, O you who follow the pope. Do you recall the answer given to Kiko in response to his letter to the Pope of 15 March 2015? The reply written by Archbisop Becciu?

      "as far as it pertains to the celebrations of the Paschal Vigil and the Sunday Eucharist, mentioned by you, articles 12 and 13, read in their entirety, constitute therefore the regulatory charter of reference."

      This reply does not leave any room for your claim that " the written instructions are found in the Vatican, with Kiko, and the Head Catechists and Bishops. We have been telling you that we have the permission of the Pope."

      Given the words of Archbishop Becciu, on behalf of Pope Francis, it is incumbent on you to prove otherwise - namely that there exists something other than "articles 12 and 13, read in their entirety" which regulate the liturgy of the Eucharist celebrated in the NCW. Bear in mind, of course, that to do so would be to contradict this official answer from the pope.

      Delete
    15. "Kiko did receive verbal instructions from the Pope. He and the Pope had private meetings..."

      How can you speak so confidently that these events happened Diana? Were you physically there to witness them? And if you were indeed present, how can we believe you when you're anonymous?

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    16. Dear Anonymous at 7:59 pm,

      The evidence is there in the news report. We all know that even the Archbishop had a private audience with Pope Francis. How? It was in the news report.

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    17. Diana, you sound so sure of yourself when you say that all NCW communities are celebrating EXACTLY in the same way. Are you SURE you know what goes on all around the world? That's pretty powerful!

      Delete
    18. Dear Anonymous at 7:00 pm,

      It is all in the footnotes. Below are the footnotes taken from the Statutes regarding Articles 12 and 13:

      42 See Roman Missal, Announcement of the Day of Easter on the Solemnity of the Epiphany: “The center of the whole liturgical year is the Triduum of the Lord’s crucifixion, burial and resurrection.”
      43 See Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1168.
      44 CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY, General Directory for Catechesis, 91; see ibid.: “The baptismal catechumenate is wholly penetrated by Christ’s paschal mystery. Therefore ‘all of initiation has to clearly reveal its paschal character’ (RCIA, 8 [corresponds to 8 of the 1988 US edition])”; see ibid., 59.
      45 Even today, many neocatechumens come from the world and experiences outside of the Church and they need a gradual introduction to the Sacraments: a sacramental pedagogy that John Paul II has defined as a “sacramental laboratory,” in which the baptized, but not initiated (see KAROL WOJTYLA, “So that Christ may use us: Catechumenate of the Twentieth Century,” Znak, Krakow, 34 [1952]: 402–413), may gradually discover the splendor of the paschal mystery. 46 See CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP, Circular Letter, Paschalis Sollemnitatis, 39–42, 77–96.
      47 JOHN PAUL II, Letter, Ogniqualvolta, August 30, 1990: AAS 82 (1990) 1515: “It is the announcement of the Gospel, the testimony in small communities and the celebration of the Eucharist in groups (see “Notification on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way,” L’Osservatore Romano, December 24, 1988) which empower the members to place themselves at the service of the Church’s renewal”; IDEM., Discourse to 350 itinerant catechists of the Neocatechumenal Way, in L’Osservatore Romano, January 18, 1994: “All of this is actuated in small communities in which ‘reflection on the Word of God and participation in the Eucharist ... form living cells in the Church, renew the vitality of the Parish through mature Christians capable of witnessing to the truth with a faith which is radically lived’ (Message to the Bishops of Europe gathered in Vienna, April 12, 1993).”
      48 See RCIA, 36 [corresponds to 217 of the 1988 US edition] and RCIA, 368 [corresponds to 243 of the 1988 US edition].
      49 See Benedict XVI, Speech to the Neocatechumenal Communities on January 12, 2006, in Notitiae 41 (2005), 554–556; CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP, Letter of December 1, 2005 in Notitiae 41 (2005), 563–565; “Notification of the Congregation for Divine Worship on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way,” L’Osservatore Romano, December 24, 1988: “The Congregation consents that among the adaptations foreseen by the instruction “Actio Pastoralis”, nn. 6-11, the groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may receive communion under two species, always with unleavened bread, and transfer “ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful.”

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    19. Yes, I am familiar with the footnotes. Please point out which footnotes provide the permission to sit down after receiving the Body in the hands, waiting until all receive in a like manner, and then consuming simultaneously with the priest.

      You can't because they don't. I rest my case

      Delete
    20. Dear Anonymous at 9:38 pm,

      The fact that you said that you are familiar with the footnotes and asked me to provide the permission for you only shows that you did not even bother to look up each footnote.

      I rest my case.

      Delete
  5. My good friend, a Baptist from California, is very interested in what is going on with our Catholic Church--especially on Guam. She has been reading both this blog and the JungleWatch blog. Her comment to me:
    The Catholic religion is going through another change that will result in another faction developed. There are the Latin Rite (or Western) and the Eastern Catholics' and now it seems there will be Neo Catholics. All will be Catholics, they just have different ceremonial practices. They have their own churches, each congregation believe they are the 'true Catholics'.
    Perhaps we should just acknowledge the division and leave each to his own. Maybe then the fighting will stop?

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    1. Aren't there Eastern Orthodox Catholic churches and Western churches? Aren't there on-going efforts of reconciliation? Aren't there differences, Theological and Ecclesiological, that are still being argued? Maybe not a faction, but they are not in agreement. Yet, both are Catholic and in communion with the Pope. This is what my friend means.
      So, again, acknowledge the differences and then let each to his own.
      The same can be said of the Neos with their constantly having to defend their right to worship as they want. It has been approved by Vatican.

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    2. Dear Anonymous at 10:50 am,

      There are no factions between the western and eastern Catholics. Both are in communion with each other and with the Pope. The Latin-rite and Eastern Catholics make up the ENTIRE Catholic Church. When our Eastern-rite brothers who are in communion with the Pope say that they are "true Catholics" they are correct because what makes them "Catholic" is that we have one faith and are in union with the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. Both the Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholic Church believe in the same dogmas and doctrines.

      However, there will always be disagreements and arguments within the Catholic Church. That was true even in the first century.

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    3. Perhaps I should have asked from the beginning then....do you think there is a division in our Catholic Church on Guam? Do you see a problem amongst the Catholics on Guam that is divided between NCW and non-NCW Catholics?

      Delete
    4. Dear Anonymous at 11:52 am,

      The division is only between those who support the jungle and the NCW. Those are only a few people as anyone can see from their last motorcade. Because I also attend the Sunday Mass, I still see people who are not in the Way attending Church despite that the priest is an RMS priest. The people in the jungle say that once a parish becomes a "neo", the people leave. In my parish, I only know of a few people who have left. The large majority have stayed. However, that is only in my parish. The others will have to make a comment as to what is going on in their parish.

      With that said, I think the main division is in the clergy rather than in the people. In the jungle, Tim Rohr made this statement:

      "What's really sad about the picture below is that you will never see a picture like that with Apuron and his own local priests. He's only happy with his imported neo boys - because of what they do for him...and what he does for them. I'll talk about that soon."

      This statement comes from a jealous heart or a heart full of envy. If a "non-neo" priest wanted to travel with the Archbishop, does he need an invitation? There is no sin in inviting yourself to tag along or even in asking to accompany the Archbishop.

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    5. While we do not oppose the NCW and the Archbishop in general as JW does, we do oppose what we see as excesses and a pushover agenda by them. We do oppose some particularities as the incessant campaigns in our churches and a power politics played out by exhibiting incredible bias, inequity and arrogance. We cannot accept that among Catholic clergy NCW members even if undeserved are raised to power positions. We are against that those who oppose NCW practices are chased at every turn and are hunted down one by one. We cannot accept that parishes are under unrelenting siege and lay people are under incessant pressure to allow NCW to penetrate their ranks and subject the parishes to the sheer power politics that slowly overcome and undermine our churches.

      However, unlike JW we are ready to peacefully coexist with NCW if visible measures and signs of good intention are demonstrated. I raised the issue of Fr Paul's proposal to NCW, asking you please to come back to our churches for the Saturday evening mass at your preferred time and in your preferred style inside the sacred space of the church. This could become a giant step toward reconciliation, don’t you agree dear Diana? Technicalities can be easily resolved, for example echoes as you said can be reduced somewhat to make the proposal feasible. It IS possible to return to our churches, it CAN be done if you wish! All you have to do is to convince your central command of initiators to allow this beautiful thing to happen.

      In lieu of accepting Fr Paul's proposal, what other trust building measures and good faith initiative could you offer from the NCW? Could you, for example, as NCW communities come with us to adore together the Blessed Sacrament in peaceful unity? Could you be with us as communities during prayer/ devotion services to Mary or the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or during the Stations of the Cross, etc.? I reckon these little things could go a long way if taken sincerely for the sake of unity of all Guam Catholics.

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  6. Dear Anonymous at 11:21 am,

    The Eastern Orthodox Church are not part of the Catholic Church. ONLY those Eastern Orthodox Churches that are in communion with the Pope are part of the Catholic Church. They call themselves "Eastern Catholcs." They include the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian and East Syrian Rites. You can see that both west and east make up the entire Catholic Church in the following website:

    https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

    The Eastern Orthodox Church that is NOT in union with the Pope are not part of the Catholic Church. But these Churches are Apostolic Churches because they can trace their lineage to an Apostle of Christ. And yes, there is still on-going dialogue and hope for reconciliation between the Pope and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

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    1. In addition, the website also shows that in the Latin-rite (Western) Church, there are 9 different liturgical rites. The Eastern Catholics have many more different liturgical rites than the western church, but all of these liturgical rites are valid and accepted by the Pope. The liturgy of the NCW follows the rite of the primitive Church, which is very close to the Eastern Catholics. The Eastern Catholics have the oldest liturgies.....much older than the western Church. And this is the source of contention between Junglewatch and the NCW.

      Delete
    2. It is interesting that you claim the ncw follow the "rite of the primitive church" because there is no such thing. In fact your statutes claim that the ncw follow the Roman Rite. Are you finally admitting that you willfully ignore your own statutes?

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 12:50 pm,

      There was a primitive Church, and the way they celebrated the Eucharist was different from the way you celebrate the Mass. In the first place, the primitive Church, which are the Early Christians, did not celebrate the Eucharist in a church building, but in the homes of people. The NCW have also celebrated their Eucharist in a home. The Early Christians also did not receive the Body of Christ on the tongue, but on their hands.

      There are 9 liturgical rites in the Latin-rite Church. Of the nine, which do you think was the oldest??? It was the Ambrosian rite that is very ancient and is part of the Latin-rite Church. The NCW uses the Ambrosian rite especially in regards to the exchange of peace. The next oldest one is the Mozarabic.rite, which dated back to the sixth century. And as I mentioned to you, the way the NCW celebrates the Eucharist is very similar to the concelebration Mass found in the GIRM.

      Delete
    4. Hang on. What do you not understans about your statutes directing the ncw to celebrate according to the Roman Rite. You seem to have no problem ignoring that?

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 2:09 pm,

      We follow the Roman rite. And we also have the permission from the Vatican for everything else. If you do not believe the Archbishop who also said that the NCW has permission from the Pope, then write your letter of complaint to the Vatican.

      Delete
  7. Thank you for the clarification. I should have eliminated "Orthodox" and just said Eastern Rite.
    I am told there are Diocese in the U.S. that have churches for both Eastern and Western congregations, and Catholics can attend either.
    Can we not have the same on Guam? (Which was my initial point.) Have churches for NCW Catholics and churches for Non-NCW, to maintain peace?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:44 pm,

      There are no Eastern Catholics that I know of in Guam. Peace between the NCW and those not walking in the Way will come in time. Like all other organizations in the Catholic Church, they have also faced persecution from fellow Catholics. The Jesuits, Franciscans, and other Catholic groups have faced persecution by fellow Catholics. But in time, they have come to accept the Jesuits, Franciscans, and all others. It is the NCW's turn to be persecuted, and in time, we will be accepted by those fellow Catholics who persecuted us.

      Delete
    2. Diana - It won't happen as long as people see that the neos continue to scandalize the Holy Eucharist. All other "organizations" follow the rubrics. Only the NCW doesn't. I agree with 10:50 AM that another faction will develop and I agree that they should have their own church.

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 6:29 pm,

      Some of those organizations had to get permission from the Holy See. For example, it was only recently that the Anglican rite was authorized by Pope John Paul II in 1980. The Opus Dei is also still being criticized due to the way they do their Eucharist.

      You say that we should have our own Church??? The Pope recognize and support us. That is all that matters to us. His acknowledgement and support is all we need to show the world that we are Catholic. If you disagree with the Pope, you disagree with Christ. I highly recommend that you write your letter of complaint to the Vatican if you are not satisfied with the Pope's decision.

      Delete
    4. "It is the NCW's turn to be persecuted, and in time, we will be accepted by those fellow Catholics who persecuted us."

      I believe it's the other way around Diana. With Archbishop Apuron taking the side of the NCW, it's the other Catholics who are being persecuted instead.

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 8:09 pm,

      Can you explain in specific details how they are being persecuted?

      Delete

    6. Archbishop persecuted violated human rights .

      Delete
    7. Dear Anonymous at 10:46 am,

      I said to be specific. What human rights did he violate? Did he kill someone? Did he torture a person? Please be specific. If someone had ask me how did Saddam Hussein persecuted his people. I would answer with specifics such as:

      1. He murdered his people using chemical weapons and had them buried in mass graves.
      2. He tortured his political enemies using acid and other man-made torture devices and then had them killed.
      3. He invaded the country of Kuwait and set its oil on fire causing massive economic disaster for the country and murdered innocent civilians.

      That is what it means to be specific. So, please be specific and do not give me a one sentence answer.

      Delete
    8. Umm, just a minute, hypocrite. How many times on this blog have we heard that the NCW is being persecuted? Just yesterday you said : "It is the NCW's turn to be persecuted, and in time, we will be accepted by those fellow Catholics who persecuted us. "

      So, using your own criteria, what human rights have been violated? Which NCW members have been killed, or tortured? Please be specific

      Delete
    9. Dear Anonymous at 3:11 pm.

      First of all, there are two types of martyrdom (red and white) just as there are two types of persecution (also red and white). If you want to know the difference between the two persecution, you can read the following CATHOLIC website:

      http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2015/05/02/martyrdom-wet-and-dry/

      Now, to answer your question:

      1. Some parishioners in Yona signed a petition declaring that they do not want the NCW present in their parish. Some parishioners in Toto expressed that they also do not want the NCW in their parish.

      2. There are some people in both the jungle and on this blog saying that the NCW should form their own church away from them because they label us as "NOT Catholic."

      3. Kiko Arguello, the founder of the NCW, was labeled an evil man by the jungle along with Archbishop Apuron who walks in the Way.

      4. Archbishop Apuron, who walks in the Way, had his tires slashed.

      5. A list of all the "neo-parishes" were listed on the jungle, and Tim Rohr encouraged everyone not to attend nor support these "neo-parishes." People also wanted to know where the "neo-parishes" are so they could avoid attending Mass there. See the weblink below:

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/07/a-neo-directory-of-parishes.html

      6. Zoltan's job was threatened by Tim Rohr because Zoltan walks in the Way and supports the Way. See weblinks below:

      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/09/threatening-persons-job.html

      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/12/responding-to-deacon-steve-martinez.html

      7. The Archbishop, Kiko Arguello, and the NCW were mocked and made fun of. The junglefolks demand that the NCW be removed along with the Archbishop and that the RMS seminary be shut down.

      8. Lies about the NCW not believing in Purgatory, Transubstantiation, and many others were spread around. On this blog, I and many NCW members have come out and stated our Catholic beliefs on these doctrines.

      Okay.....now it is your turn. Explain how the Archbishop violated human rights.

      Delete
    10. 1. It is entirely reasonable for parishioners to express their desire to not be inflicted with the NCW
      2. Insofar as the NCW ignore their own Statutes and defy the lawful authority of the Church, they are protestants.
      3.Kiko Arguello is evidently a narcissistic megalomaniac who, in any other age, would have been quickly labelled a heretic
      4. I have never seen any evidence that links the alleged slashing of tyres with the devotion of the Archbishop to the NCW
      5. It is perfectly reasonable to withhold support for the NCW for all the reasons elucidated over the past few years
      6. Zoltan is a fanatic
      7. Yes, quite right
      8. There is good evidence for coming to these conclusions. The NCW has a secret doctrine that is not ever fully allowed to be examined, and demonstrates a disdain for the Church of the Ages

      I'll give you one example of "persecution", in your "soft" sense. By supporting the NCW's illicit liturgy, the Archbishop denies the faithful their enduring right to receive communion on the tongue at any Mass.

      Delete
    11. Let's see if you'll post this list to start off Diana.

      1. removing priests to make way for neo priests who are hard to understand/comprehend.
      2. removing Fr. Paul who was so instrumental at the Dededo church.
      2. having the locks changed out at the Dededo church while having a meeting with Father Paul.
      3. dragging the Lastimoza family out by insinuating he was a danger to children.
      4. spreading gossip to other priests that Father Paul and Mr. Lastimoza were in a homosexual
      relationship.
      5. denying our local boys support/sponsorship to off-island seminaries since they didn't want to be formed at RMS.
      6. making public charges against Msgr James without permitting him to see it.
      7. removing Msgr James, instrumental at the Cathedral and placing neo newbie Fr. Jucatan in his position.
      8. removing Santa Guadalupe statue at Santa Rita church and saying she can be placed in the rectory instead.
      9. assigning neo priests as parish pastors and all of a sudden, things start changing. Mass schedules are changed, rosaries for the dead at the church are restricted, parish councils are being abolished, no finance councils.
      10. keeping silent and not addressing his "whole" flock on the church's situation.
      11. lying that the RMS is for the formation of diocesan priests.
      12. removing Deacon Steve as SARC and replacing him with Deacon Larry who doesn't handle the position very well....case in point, Fr. Luis Camacho.
      13. scandalizing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by allowing the NCW to "do their own thing".

      to be continued....

      Delete
    12. Dear Anonymous at 6:14 pm,

      These are not persecutions. Let us take a close look at it.

      1. Expressing your desire was never taken away from you. You expressed your rejection of the NCW. Expressing rejection for a group of people is persecution.

      2. The fact that you call the NCW "protestants" despite the Pope's acknowledgement and support only shows your prejudice. No persecution there from our side.

      3. Again another opinionated and prejudice statement against the founder of the NCW. No persecution there from our side.

      4. The evidence is found when the Archbishop had the tires repaired. Being humble, he did not report it to the police. However, he did install security cameras as a result of the tire slashing.

      5. Withholding support for any one particular group is simply targeting that group for discrimination.

      6. Again, another opinionated and prejudice statement against someone walking in the Way. No persecution from our side.

      7. See number 6.

      8. See number 6

      You stated: By supporting the NCW's illicit liturgy, the Archbishop denies the faithful their enduring right to receive communion on the tongue at any Mass.

      This is incorrect. The Archbishop never denied the faithful the right to receive communion on the tongue at the parish Mass. In the parish Mass, anyone can receive communion either on the tongue or hand. It is only in certain Masses such as the Latin Mass and the NCW where one form is only used. The Statutes states that "the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities is prepared under the guidance of the presbyter...." (Article 13). The NCW Mass is NOT guided by YOU. So, if the presbyter says, communion will be receive by hand.....then according to the NCW Statutes, which is APPROVED by Rome, you must comply with the Presbyter.

      Delete
    13. Here we go again:

      1. "Expressing rejection for a group of people is persecution. " Not if it is reasonable to reject the group.
      2. I said "Insofar as the NCW ignore their own Statutes and defy the lawful authority of the Church, they are protestants". That is not the same as your paraphrase. The pope himself said as much through the letter of Archbishop Becciu
      3. Yes, it is an opinion based on the evidence.
      4. Your statement is merely an assertion, without any proof, and is therefore insufficient to warrant your orginal claim
      5. No, withholding support for a group is entirely reasonable. I can see why you might think that though, given you have bene subject to brainwashing in the NCW. It doesn't bode well tha tyou think that not supporting the NCW is "discrimination" (whatever that is supposed to mean). Do you support abortiionist? Oh well that must be discrimination. What about terrorists? How about those that hate the Church? Do you support them? Is that "discrimination too?
      6. Zoltans statements speak ffor themselves
      7. As long as the NCW remains obstinate in its heresy and unlawful, immoral activities, it is incumbent on us to demand it is eradicated.
      8. Show us all the volumes of the catechesis - the ones that Kiko described in the intorduction to volume 1 as haveing truths "not found in the specific words but in the general context". Can you imagine any other Church document claiming that?

      Once again you demonstrate that you are ignorant of the Church's position on communion on the tongue. The Church does not regard communion on the tongue and communion in the hand as equally valid choices. The Church says that communion on the tongue is the norm, and is not to be denied to any faithful at any Mass. Communion in the hand is effectively given as an indult - as permission to break the norm, but is not equally protected as communion in the hand is. A Bishop may make a decision to order that communion in the hand is not practiced, but he is not permitted to make the same ruling in regard to communion on the tongue. Therefore, any practice that prevents communion on the tongue being a licit option for the faithful at any Mass is illicit and in violation of the Church's clear teaching.

      Delete
    14. Dear Anonymous at 12:09 am,

      Here we go again:

      1. There is no reason to reject any particular group based on creed, nationality, sex, race, or religious beliefs. That is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you believe that the NCW is in error, your ONLY course of action is to write to the Vatican, and that is all. Allow the Vatican to do its job.

      2. The Pope has never called the NCW "protestant." Who are you to judge that we are? Are you higher than the Pope? The Pope NEVER said that the NCW are Protestants until they follow what we say. That kind of statement ONLY came from the people who persecute the NCW.

      3. You gave absolutely no evidence showing that Kiko or the Archbishop is an evil man.

      4. There are witnesses who saw the slashed tires. Even the jungle is aware of it and made fun of the Archbishop's tires being slashed. See the weblink below:

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/08/keep-out.html

      5. Comparing the NCW to abortionist is a very weak argument. Why did you not compare us to the Legion of Mary, the Knights of Columbus, or the Cusillio Movement? The NCW has more in common with them in that we are a religious organization like them rather a clinic for abortion. Again, this only goes to show that the NCW is being persecuted through unfair treatment.

      6. Like every citizen, Zoltan has the right to freely express his religious beliefs without fear of losing his job. His job was threatened by Tim Rohr simply because he spoke out in support of the NCW. Zoltan, on the other hand, has never threatened Tim's job. As I said, the NCW is being persecuted.

      7. Since when has it become the laity's duty to eradicate what the Pope supports and whose catechesis the Vatican approved?

      8. Those 13 volumes were APPROVED by the Vatican. If you have a problem with the first volume, then take it up with the Vatican. That is the only course of action you are required to do. You are not the Pope.

      Again, you failed to show how the Archbishop has violated human rights. The only reason you cannot provide such evidence is simply because there is none. On the other hand, the NCW is indeed being bullied and persecuted. And all you are doing is defending your right to bully and persecute the NCW. I rest my case. :-)

      Delete
    15. "Once again you demonstrate that you are ignorant of the Church's position on communion on the tongue. The Church does not regard communion on the tongue and communion in the hand as equally valid choices. The Church says that communion on the tongue is the norm, and is not to be denied to any faithful at any Mass. Communion in the hand is effectively given as an indult - as permission to break the norm, but is not equally protected as communion on the tongue is. A Bishop may make a decision to order that communion in the hand is not practiced, but he is not permitted to make the same ruling in regard to communion on the tongue. Therefore, any practice that prevents communion on the tongue being a licit option for the faithful at any Mass is illicit and in violation of the Church's clear teaching."

      A "presbyter" has NO AUTHORITY to decide that communion on the tongue is not allowed in any particular Mass

      Delete
    16. Dear Anonymous July 1, 2015 at 12:09 AM, you call my name but do not identifying yourself. Is this good or acceptable manner? I don't think so. If I would be Diana, I would not allow you or any anonymous to speak here, Whenever you post an anonymous comment, you reduce yourself to a no-name person with a no-name opinion that does not count. Is this what you want? You do not stand behind your view and this is very sad! I feel so sorry for you.

      If you would be a brave person who stands behind her/his opinion, then I would ask you to show what statements you think are fanatic I have ever made. You would mot find any. But you do not respect yourself enough to name yourself, so why should I?

      However, Let me give you an opportunity to save your face. I challenge you to meet me in front of an audience and the media for an honest discussion of the issues at hand. The format would be a debate moderated by a respected local media personality acceptable for both sides. How about that, dear Anonymous?! Do you accept the challenge? Now is the time to stand behind your words!

      Delete
    17. Dear Zoltan,

      There are no respected local media on Guam. And meeting a person who defends his/her right to bully and persecute the NCW is not worth the time of day.

      Delete
    18. Dear Anonymous at 10:27 am,

      The Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, which was approved by the Vatican gave the presbyter the authority to permit communion by hand only. According to the Statutes Article 13, Section 4:

      "The celebration of the Eucharist in the small community is prepared under the guidance of the presbyter, ........"

      As you can see, it is the presbyter (priest) who has the authority to guide the Eucharist. It is NOT you! If you feel that the Vatican was wrong in approving the Statutes, then write your letter of complaint to them.

      Delete
    19. I know we have discussed this before, but its worth a try again, I suppose. Please read the following, noting that not even a Bishop is allowed to prohibit receiving communion on the tongue:

      http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-a-bishop-prohibit-receiving-communion-on-the-tongue

      You quote ""The celebration of the Eucharist in the small community is prepared under the guidance of the presbyter, ........"

      which is in relation to the "preparation" for the Eucharist, not the rubrics of the Eucharist, that are separately determined by the Holy See. Under the NCW Statutes the presbyter "guides" only the "preparation" of the Eucharist (which actually we know is rarely the case anyway).

      In fact, you have selectively quoted that article of the Statutes (13.4), which actually goes on to describe the type of preparation that is referred to:

      "brief monitions to the readings, chooses the songs, provides the bread, the wine, the flowers, and takes care of the decorum and dignity of the liturgical signs. "

      Nothing about the method of communion.

      Delete
    20. Dear Anonymous at 12L37 am,

      You are correct. Thank you and I stand corrected because it does say "preparation." Nevertheless, the Statutes does say that the presbyter does have the authority in the NCW, but I cited the wrong article. Title V, Article 27 states:

      The pastor/parish priest and the presbyters carry out the pastoral care (see c. 419 CIC) of those who go through the Nocatechumenal Way - also in the light of what is indicated in art. 5 S2 and 6 S2 - and exercise "in persona Christi capitis" their priestly ministry by announcing the Word ofGod, administering the sacraments and, as far as possible, presiding over the celebrations of the first or of other neocatechumenal communities in the parish."

      The Bishop you cited in your article is not walking in the Way. The Pope, the Pontifical Council for the Laity, and the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, and the Congregation of the Clergy are all aware of the fact that the NCW receives communion only on the hand. They are aware that in celebrating the Eucharist in the Way, the priest does not yet take communion until after the Body of Christ has been distributed to all members.

      This is my take on it. If I go to the Traditional Latin Mass everybody receives on the tongue and kneeling, so I should be one with them and follow them. If a person goes to the Way's Eucharist, they should do the same and be one with them. If not, they can go elsewhere.

      Delete
    21. my dear Diana July 2, 2015 at 6:04 AM, your reply to; Dear Anonymous at 12L37 am,

      i'm sorry, did i read that right "If not, they can go elsewhere" (last sentence) really?
      my dear after all this time, years of stating WE ARE ALL INVITED....wow

      Delete
    22. my dear diana, "this is my take on it"
      we need to adhere to the blessings of the pope and be obedient
      .
      § 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical
      books of the Roman Rite are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See.49 Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the
      neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place.

      we all need to follow rules, in our house, our rules

      Delete
    23. Dear Anonymous at 6:57 am,

      The NCW is not there to do your bidding. If you feel uncomfortable to be one with us, then go somewhere else. You are invited so long as you respect us and not force us to follow you or to disrupt our Mass. If you cannot behave, then go somewhere else. I am pretty sure that this same rule applies to those attending the Latin Mass and the regular parish mass.

      Delete
    24. Dear Anonymous at 7:33 am,

      As I kept saying, the Pope has granted the NCW permission to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. There was a change that was made in how we receive Holy Communion. The Holy See stated that the NCW should receive Holy Communion standing up as with the rest of the Catholic Church. This change was made in the NCW in 2008. Today, we now receive the Body of Christ standing rather than sitting.

      If you do not like the way we celebrate our Eucharist, then write your letter of complaint to the Vatican. That is the only rule you need to follow.

      Delete
    25. Dear Zoltan July 1, 2015 at 12:34 PM,

      I accept your offer to debate these issues - on two conditions however.

      So, given that you say "Whenever you post an anonymous comment, you reduce yourself to a no-name person with a no-name opinion that does not count", the first condition is that "Diana" should identify herself, as "Diana" is essentially the same as "Anon". You could call me "Bilbo" if you want, but that wouldn't satisfy the sentiments of your comment.

      Secondly, you must produce the written permission in regard to the method of communion in the NCW Eucharist and any other deviation from the liturgical books - the same "permission" referred to any number of times on this blog, that supposedly is "somewhere" according to the Archbishop, and that he "has to find it".

      So, do these two things and you get your debate.

      Delete
    26. Dear Anonymous at 11:19 am,

      And why does my identity have to be revealed when it is not me who will not be debating with you? Zoltan chose to use his real name. The fact that you made my identity as one of the stipulations for your condition shows that your intention is not in a debate at all, but in bashing my person.

      Delete
    27. Dear Diana, while you remain anonymous, you don't have a "person". You are merely words on a page, as am I. However, as you seem to think Zoltan is perfectly entitled to make these comments and to criticise my anonymity, I think it is only fair that if I am to reveal my identity, you ought to as well. In fact echoing Zoltans sentiments, one could accuse you of being nothing other than an instrument of division for having this blog without any recourse to your real motivations. You, on the other hand, are free to say all you like about Tim Rohr and his family (and you do) because he has the courage of his convictions.

      Delete
    28. Dear Anonymous at 11:46 am,

      That is the problem with the world today. Their mentality is that a "non-person" or a "thing" is doing the typing behind these words. If the mentality of people could see the facts that behind the screen of a computer, ipad, or iPhone is actually a REAL person, the world would be a better and kinder place, and there would be less cyberbullying. How unfortunate, that the devil lets them see only what the devil wants them to see and how easily they fall to the whims of the devil.

      Tim Rohr can reveal himself because he is not the one being persecuted. It is the NCW and the Archbishop who is being persecuted. Zoltan chose to reveal his name, and it was Tim Rohr who threatened his job. It was not the other way around.

      Delete
    29. "If the mentality of people could see the facts that behind the screen of a computer, ipad, or iPhone is actually a REAL person, the world would be a better and kinder place, and there would be less cyberbullying."

      That could be easily fixed Diana. Just identify yourself and "courage brother"!

      Delete
    30. Dear Anonymous at 12:05 pm,

      You misunderstood what I said. It is your mentality that has to change in order to make a better world.

      Delete
    31. That you continue to misrepresent who you all are "Diana" is sad. Not only do others know who you are, others know that "you" are not just a singular entity. You are stuck with this narrative because you feel the need to maintain the façade. Even those in community that know of the efforts of this blog are aware of who you all are.

      So, go ahead and deny this in your next response, go ahead and list all the names you always list when you claim others always get it wrong (Some of those people on that list also know the truth). You are only digging the hole that much deeper. But, really, I don't need you to admit to anything on your blog. I already know the truth. We all already know the truth.

      Also, enough of the misappropriation of the term persecution. You profane the word through your constant misuse.

      Delete
    32. Oh, I see now. What you were really saying is "You are a servant of Satan".

      Delete
    33. Dear Anonymous at 12:59 pm,

      We all fall to the whims of the devil, but that does not make us his servant because the devil is tricky and can easily deceive us. But Christ is always there to pick us up when we fall.

      Delete
    34. Dear Jose,

      I have always said that I am not a priest since the very beginning. I have never changed my story. I am only one person who writes on this blog. This blog belongs only to me, and I am the only one who has access to it. Both my responsible and catechists do not even know who I am. Whether you believe me or not is not my problem.

      Delete
    35. Dear Anonymous July 3, 2015 at 11:19 AM, I am so glad you accepted the challenge of debating the issues at hand. This shows that, after all, you might not be the no-name coward with no-name opinion thst you show yourself to be. All we need to find now is an agreeable time, date and a good location with a suitable moderator to hold the debate. I promise you it will be spectacular! I am somewhat concerned though about your two conditions you want to impose on the debate. Whatever saying you want to have in the debate, the first thing should be to identify yourself. If you don't, then well your opinion remains a no-name opinion that does not count.

      1. Whatever business you have with Diana, it is a business between you two. So please, keep it there. Your business with me is that you called me a fanatic with statements that are supposedly showing this. Now, your claim is a proof of your cowardice unless you identify yourself and show me the above mentioned statements during our debate. If you can't, then you have to publicly apologize. This is your business with me!
      2. I am in no business in producing any kind document for you. My clear speaking document of faith is the Bible, please, read it frequently. I recommend that you turn to the proper official authority for any document you might need. On this blog, on a debate or anywhere else I represent myself because I happen to be a real person, unlike some no-name persons with no-name opinions!

      The linking of the debate where you have to give account for your false claims and outright lies to issues about the Neocatechumenal Way, Diana and the Archbishop irking you is a sad exhibition of your flawed character as that of a no-name person with no-name opinion, zero responsibility and zero self worth. If you keep considering yourself to be a person like that, then why should I do differently?

      Delete
    36. Dear zoltan, each time you speak of "no-name persons with no-name opinions" remember you are also speaking about "diana" who remains similarly anonymous, but with much more to say than i do.

      And i never asked you to consider me with any compassion, respect or "worth ". Thats entirely up to you, and i won't lose any sleep over it.

      Incidentally, the only subject i would wish to debate you on would be the behavior of the NCW, meaning of course that the alleged documented "permission" is entirely relevant. Oh, also please bring along your copy of the thirteen volumes of the catechesis so we can talk about that too. Whats that you say? You don't have a copy because you're not sufficiently advanced along the path? How tragic!

      And you want to debate me?

      PS. For the sake of satisfying your request, from now on please refer to me as "Diana". Its my confirmation name, you see.

      Delete
  8. Diana, these are your own words: "It is our responsibility to be obedient to the Pope. He gave us permission to celebrate the way we celebrate the Eucharist. That permission had always been found in Kiko's 2006 thank you letter to the Pope. Kiko thanked the Pope for many things, and one of them was giving them the permission to consume the Body of Christ sitting down."

    So it was permitted as early as in 2006 to sit down before you consume the Body of Christ in NCW masses. But then how can you say it was only granted in 2008? I am confused.

    I definitely do not want to dwell on this issue, as JW does, because it is really not my business how people consume the Euchanrist. The best thing is to follow official regulations. I do not agree with JW that sitting down is necessarily a violation of those regulations right now. But it may become violation one day in the future. Vatican may declare one day, as it has not been declared ever, that receiving the Holy Host includes consumption and swallowing. This issue could play the role of a so called "security leverage" built into the statute of the NCW by Vatican. There are security leverages built into some founding papers of all orders and Catholic movements so that in case the leadership of these movements go rouge and break koinonia with Rome, this leverage can be used to eliminate unwanted leaders and guarantee submission to regulations and unity in the Church. As Pope Benedict said, an existing charism in the Catholic Church may be granted or may be extinguished.

    For example, some generations ahead down the road there might come a Pope who wishes to curb the NCW. Then he will have all disputed material at his disposal and will use the leverage to exert pressure on the NCW leadership so that they to follow Rome's instructions. JW had completely misunderstood the significance of this issue and tries to misuse the form of consuming the Eucharist in the NCW to make accusations against the movement. It is wrong! Rome is silent because using the leverage of Eucharist regulations in the NCW statute is NOT the privilege of JW, but the privilege of Rome and only Rome. It is only the Pope, present or future, who can make that decision.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I do not agree with JW that sitting down is necessarily a violation of those regulations right now"

      Of course its a violation. The NCW are to follow the liturgical books of the Roman Rite "without adding or omitting anything". Sitting down, without serious reason, violates the liturgical books of the Roman Rite. It beggars belief that anyone could argue that this was worked out in some private, verbal agreement. That's just not how it works.

      "Vatican may declare one day, as it has not been declared ever, that receiving the Holy Host includes consumption and swallowing"

      That doesn't matter as the GIRM instructs that the host is to be consumed immediately after receiving it in the hand.

      "It is wrong! Rome is silent because using the leverage of Eucharist regulations in the NCW statute is NOT the privilege of JW, but the privilege of Rome and only Rome. It is only the Pope, present or future, who can make that decision. "

      You are mistaken. It is the obligation of all the faithful to be vigilant about these matters. Please see Redemptionis Sacramentum

      Delete
    2. Dear Anonymous at 3:33 pm,

      Then please write your letter of complaint to Rome. Only Rome has the authority to discipline the NCW (if we are wrong) or to support us (if we are right). You have no authority over the NCW.

      Delete
    3. grow up in faithJune 30, 2015 at 7:25 PM

      Dear Anonymous, as far as I am concerned NCW members can consume the Host by standing upside down if they wish, I would nor care any bit. It is their business not mine. I am more concerned that the time line of approval as Diana presented here is kinda messed up. She said Kiko thanked the approval in a letter back in 2006. However, she also stated the approval happened only in 2008. So how can you thank something in 2006 that is going to happen only in 2008?! I am deeply puzzled!

      Another concern is that NCW communities seem to be unwilling to show any kind of trust building or good faith measures towards their Catholic sisters and brothers for the sake of unity. They as community or as community OF communities are unwilling to
      --- come back to our churches for the Saturday evening services,
      --- adore together the Blessed Sacrament in peaceful unity,
      --- participate in prayer/ devotion services to Mary,
      --- adore the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
      --- do the Stations of the Cross with the parish community,
      --- walk with us in processions during holy days,
      --- exhibit any kind of sign of unity with the parish.

      I would be glad if I could be wrong here, but what we see, hear and read here, this seems to be the fact about the NCW communities all around the island.

      Delete
    4. "as far as I am concerned NCW members can consume the Host by standing upside down if they wish"

      I guess its a good thing its not up to you then.

      But, I wholeheartedly agree with the remainder of your assessment :)

      Delete
    5. Dear grow up in faith,

      I never said that Kiko thanked the Pope for the approval in 2006. I said he gave a thank you letter to the Pope for supporting them. The discussions between Kiko and the Pope were still on-going even until 2007. There were private meetings between Kiko and Pope Benedict XVI before the Statutes were approved.

      Also, the NCW has been back in the parish. Some of us attend the 5:30 am, 6:00 am, 9:30 am, 10:00 am, and 11:00 am Mass. Why? Because of our involvement in the Parish Mass. We also participate in parish activities. Therefore, what you REALLY want is the destruction of the NCW rather than coexistence.

      Delete

  9. Diana, many accounts of NCW presbyters persecuting old people with psychological threats bullying.
    What would you do if a presbyter threatened blackmailed your mother? This is reality on island presbyters bullying abuse of old.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:45 am,

      Another rumor going around? Who are these old people? For your information, the vast majority of NCW members are middle age people and youths.

      Delete
    2. "vast majority of NCW members are middle age people and youths."

      That doesn't mean that there aren't any old people in the NCW, Diana. I know of several old women who are in the Way.....easy targets for psychological threats.

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 6:17 am,

      Anonymous at 9:45 am stated that there are MANY accounts of RMS priests persecuting old people. The fact is that there is not even one account.

      Delete
    4. How can you be so sure that there is not even ONE account of it happening?

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 7:07 am,

      Because this is one of those fantasy stories started by the jungle.....just like the fantasy story of Father John hiding in the RM seminary.

      Delete
  10. DianaJuly 3, 2015 at 4:51 PM
    Dear Jose,

    I have always said that I am not a priest since the very beginning. I have never changed my story. I am only one person who writes on this blog. This blog belongs only to me, and I am the only one who has access to it. Both my responsible and catechists do not even know who I am. Whether you believe me or not is not my problem.


    "Diana" there are people who know who you all are and you know they are aware that you are not forthright about who all is involved . It's a conundrum for them because while they want to be obedient to Fr. Pius, they also know that "your" anonymity is not righteous. (I hope you are not going to deny that Fr. Pius is involved with this blog or is knowledgeable of it's authors.)

    Whether I believe you or not is irrelevant. I am not the only one who knows that you are not being truthful. How many times do you all have to go to your confessor before you all cease with the fabrications. Receiving the sacrament of Reconciliation is not a license to continue this ruse.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Jose,

      Every single entry post on this blog was published by me. The only things on this blog that does not come from me are those which I placed in red or blue as they come from articles or quotes. If the material comes from another source other than me, I always cite the source.

      You stated that you are the only one who knows that I am not being truthful. Are you God? Only God can see the heart of a person.

      Delete
    2. I wrote: "I am not the only one who knows that you are not being truthful.

      Please stop. Please stop with being less than truthful. You are not kidding anyone. It may be one person who presses the button to publish posts, but it certainly is not one person who is authoring the posts and comments. No more lies. It's bad enough that you remain unaccountable for the misdirection through your anonymity.

      Delete
    3. Dear Jose,

      I am both the person who pressed the button and who is the author of this blog. That is the truth. I am the only one who posts and authorize everything on this blog. This blog belongs only to me. It does not belong to Father Pius, the Archbishop, or anyone else in the NCW. Whether you believe that or not is not my problem.

      Delete
    4. This is a problem for all of you. Your anonymity renders you with no credibility. You have no way to support anything you are saying about your identities because you have chosen to portray yourselves as one person. Write anything you want, but any effort to gain credence is nullified through your anonymity.

      This has been a most revealing exchange. All that needs to be said has been said.

      Delete

    5. I was told by an honest source Diana blog is owned paid for by archbishop. He pays $10,000 monthly for the support of Diana to maintain blog. Instructions were to begin a blog to compete with JW.

      Delete
    6. Dear Anonymous at 11:37 pm,

      I laughed when I read your comment. The only time anyone knew of this blog was through the jungle. The Archbishop did not know anything about the blog I started, and he certainly is not donating anything to my blog. In fact, I do not receive any donations for my blog.

      Delete
    7. Dear Jose,

      On the contrary. The reason I and many others remain anonymous is because of persecution, which can easily be seen. These persecutions along with our anonymity gives us more credibility than you think. As I pointed out, Tim Rohr threatened Zoltan's job when he spoke in support of the Way. Many of us have jobs and families, so we remain anonymous to protect them. We are not blind to what the jungle is doing. After all, no one wants to be stalked only to have a photo of their home and worksite published on a blog.

      Delete
    8. Just wondering if Zoltan lost his job as a result of the threat?

      Delete
    9. Diana, your statement doesn't make sense:

      "These persecutions along with our anonymity gives us more credibility than you think."

      Since when does anonymity = credibility?

      Delete
    10. Dear Anonymous at 7:45 am,

      There are many Christians whose names we do not know, but died as a result of persecution. There are many saints in Heaven. The Church recognize some of them because they are known, but there are many unknown saints in Heaven.

      Everyone can see the reason why many in the NCW refuse to identify themselves. Here is a sample of the NCW being persecuted. These persecutions have become our credibility:

      1. Zoltan supports and walks in the Way. His job was threatened by Tim Rohr.

      2. Jessica Blas and Holly Leon Guerrero copied my avatar and placed it on their facebook page. Immediately, they were accused of being me and they started mocking these young girls.

      3. The Archbishop who walks in the Way is being stalked.

      4. The Archbishop's tires were slashed.

      5. A $500 reward by Tim Rohr was placed on my head for anyone who can identify me.

      6. Some parishioners in Yona signed a petition declaring that they do not want the NCW present in their parish. Some parishioners in Toto expressed that they also do not want the NCW in their parish. The junglefolks have also been calling for the removal of the NCW, not only from the parish, but from Guam.

      7. There are some people in both the jungle and on this blog saying that the NCW should form their own church away from them because they label us as "NOT Catholic" despite that the NCW is recognized and supported by the Pope.

      8. Kiko Arguello, the founder of the NCW, was labeled an evil man by the jungle along with Archbishop Apuron who walks in the Way.

      9. A list of all the "neo-parishes" were listed on the jungle, and Tim Rohr encouraged everyone not to attend nor support these "neo-parishes." People also wanted to know where the "neo-parishes" are so they could avoid attending Mass there. See the weblink below:

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/07/a-neo-directory-of-parishes.html

      10. The Archbishop, Kiko Arguello, and the NCW were mocked and made fun of. The junglefolks demand that the NCW be removed along with the Archbishop and that the RMS seminary be shut down.

      11. Lies about the NCW not believing in Purgatory, Transubstantiation, and many others were spread around. On this blog, I and many NCW members have come out and stated our Catholic beliefs on these doctrines.

      Delete
    11. Dear Anonymous at 7:42 am,

      You stated: "Just wondering if Zoltan lost his job as a result of the threat?"

      Whether he lost his job or not is irrelevant. The point is.....his job should never have been threatened. A person's job should never be threatened simply because the person disagrees with your religious views.

      Delete
    12. Guam is just too small to be up front about who we are. We are typing back and forth, eventually someone will misunderstand, take it personally and then we will have created another jungle.
      As I have told Rohr before, when push comes to shove, I will reveal what I know and my real name will be signed at the bottom.

      -Jokers Wild

      Delete

  11. Diana very well said. No ones job should be threatened because a person disagrees with your religious views. But this is exactly what Pius does.. He threatens those who do not follow him. This is the problem. Problem is not NCW it is five people practicing evil that is the problem.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:50 pm,

      Where is your evidence that Father Pius threatened a person's job the way Tim Rohr has done? People saw Tim Rohr post Zoltan's phone number at work and his place of work. People saw Tim Rohr's comments on the Internet, calling on Zoltan's employers.

      Delete

  12. No one has time or inclination to stalk archbishop. It just happens when he makes a stupid move someone present photos . That is not stalking. Stalking is when you follow a person. When they leave the house, where they go, who are they with.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:52 pm,

      Stalking is also getting information on the person and his hereabouts. We all know that Tim Rohr has boasted about having spies everywhere.

      Delete
    2. Diana at 1:07 PM, your statement "We all know that Tim Rohr has boasted about having spies everywhere." is funny. The only time I heard about his "having spies everywhere" was at a CCOG meeting when he said that people share documents and photos with him (and which he shares on his blog). I think his words were "It's almost like having spies everywhere," but nothing about actually having spies everywhere.

      It's hard because we are afraid of coming out into the open to complain so we stay anonymous. Tim Rohr will tell us when he gets something thru FOIA but he won't tell where he gets the rest of his documents (and sometimes photos). But I don't think enough people like Tim Rohr to be in a network of spies for him.

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 1:53 pm,

      This is all from Tim's blog. Tim Rohr boasted in his blog to Kiko that HIS people are everywhere. Tim Rohr is claiming these people as HIS own. According to Tim Rohr:

      NOTE TO KIKO
      Our people are everywhere...and we are watching.

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/03/note-ot-kiko.html

      Tim Rohr is not saying "the" people. He said "OUR" people are everywhere and "WE" are watching." This is no longer a group of frustrated people who are supplying him with information. These are HIS people deliberately spying on people for Tim Rohr, who is the head of the spy network.

      Tim Rohr also has a French UNDERGROUND. The term "underground" means "to operate in SECRET," He has a French underground network in Manila. If he has no spies as he claimed at the CCOG meeting, then why call it an underground? Only spies have underground networks who go around obtaining information and getting photos exactly like what this French underground network did when the Archbishop was in Manila.. See weblink below:

      http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/01/report-from-french-underground-in-manila.html

      Delete
    4. What unearth is wrong with an underground movement. The CIA operate in underground world to gain intelligence for the white House.

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 6:38 pm,

      The CIA is a spy network. It's purpose is to serve the U.S. government. The CIA has done some things that the American people are not proud of.....such as spying on their allies. I can understand the United States spying on North Korea or Iran, but there is something seriously wrong when the U.S. government starts spying on Great Britain, France, Spain and other countries who are their allies and friends.

      The CIA is controlled by one government, and already you see what kind of damage can be done. How much more a spy network controlled by only one man??? What purpose would one man have for a spy network? A country....I can understand......but one man?

      Delete
  13. Diana on July 4, 2015 at 6:26 AM said "Many of us have jobs and families, so we remain anonymous to protect them. We are not blind to what the jungle is doing. After all, no one wants to be stalked only to have a photo of their home and worksite published on a blog."

    I agree, stalking and intimidation is not Christ like and, importantly, it is illegal. That is why you should tread carefully when you falsely accuse those you disagree with of doing all these adverse activities. For me, I don't need to lob accusations, I have documented evidence to cite. However, while your readers may find certain reported incidents interesting, thus rendering your accusations hypocritical, Fr Pius may not appreciate the irony.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Jose,

      I am not stalking anyone. And the information that I published in this entry post are public information that I obtained from the Internet. Anyone can see that; therefore, there is no hypocrisy.

      Delete
    2. Everyone seems to have documented evidence here in Guam!!!!! Jose is in the same club as Tim!!!

      Delete