DianaismyrealnameJanuary 5, 2018 at 11:50 AMDear Diana,
Thankyou for proving my point. Instead of acknowledging that baptized people are ontologically and substantially different to the unbaptized, you argue that it is RIGHT to treat the baptized and unbaptized the same!
Here's a bit from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word" CCC1213
Sounds like something has changed, doesn't it?
So when we hear the catechists saying "There is nothing good in you! Nothing - Only selfishness and sin!", we know they are wrong, as we have "put on Christ" through baptism, and bear Christ in our hearts.
This is the main difference between the attitude of the NCW and the attitude of the Church. They are not the same.
The NCW takes practicing Catholics from the pews - the same people who are reverent, formed by the sacraments, living in grace - and tells them that everything they knew about God was an error, and that they need to be "undone" by going back down into the font of baptism, where the "new man", in the image of Kiko's own existential moment, can be made.
This is essentially a denial of Christ.
By the way, do you remember the prayer for the dead in the Eucharistic prayer (III, I think)?
"To our departed brothers and sisters
and to all who were pleasing to you
at their passing from this life,"
Why would the Church say "our departed brothers and sisters" and then a separate reference to "who were pleasing to you at their passing from this life"?
If even the pagans are our brothers and sisters, why the distinction?
It is because the pagans are not "children of God", as we are, because they are not baptized. While they are certainly "creatures of God", they have not yet been adopted into his family.
So, the NCW needs to understand that when they treat the baptized as if they are unbaptized, they deny Christ.
First of all, do not put words in my mouth. I never said that the baptized are to be treated the same as the pagans (who are not baptized). This is what I stated:
If you are a Christian, you would have known that even the pagans are our brothers and sisters. Why? Because all mankind were created in the image and likeness of God. The Apostle Paul also called the pagans in Athens "brothers."What I stated comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Holy Bible. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):
CCC 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
The Church bonds herself with non-Christian religions because the human race forms one community. All of humanity were created in God's image and likeness. All of us are brothers and sisters because all of us form one community.....the human race. This is what makes us brothers and sisters, but NOT brothers and sisters in Christ.....only brothers and sisters in humanity. It is important to distinguish the difference between "brothers and sisters" and "brothers and sisters IN CHRIST." In addition, the Apostle Paul called the pagans in Athens "children of God". Because they are also God's children, that also makes them our "brothers and sisters." According to the Holy Bible (the bold is mine):
Acts 17:22-29 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being.’[fn] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[fn] “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
As anyone can see in Sacred Scripture, St. Paul, who addressed the pagans in Athens, called them "God's offspring". It is through our humanity that the Church bonds herself with the non-Christians because all humanity was created in God's image and likeness and all humanity form one community, that of the human race. The difference between the Christians and the pagans is that the Christians received the Holy Spirit while the pagans did not.
It was through our baptism that we received the Holy Spirit, but this does not mean that we are no longer sinners. Conversion is a process, not a one time deal. Through our baptism we received the Holy Spirit so that we are incorporated into God's family, the Church, and into His kingdom as Heirs. When we were baptized as babies, the Original Sin was removed. Yet, as we grow older, we did not remain sinless. We are still sinners. And so, the Catechism of the Catholic Church stated that we need a POST-BAPTISM, which is what the Neocatechumenal Way is about. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):
CCC 1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.
According to the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way (Article 1, Section 3) (the bold is mine):
§ 3. The Neocatechumenal Way, endowed with public juridical personality,2 is composed of an ensemble of spiritual goods:3 1st. the “Neocatechumenate,”4 or a post-baptismal catechumenate,5 in accordance with the form described in Title II
Just received word that the chancery is working to centralize all payroll checks from all Parishes, schools etc. These will be administered by Toni Sanford’s company.
ReplyDeleteThere is a definite and UNETHICAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST here since Toni is a member of the archdiocese finance council. She’s all set up to earn millions of the church. Nice job Toni!!!
I’m sure PDN and GuamPost will not say a word.
Sad! This diocese is so corrupt!
A semi-answer perhaps.
ReplyDeleteI notice you didn't deny the substance of my argument, but focused only on the question of our "brotherhood". Which, if you look carefully, is not really the point, as we seem to be saying much the same thing - I said all people are "creatures" of God; you quote the CCC saying that humanity is "one stock which God created to people the entire earth"; I said that the Mass refers to "brothers and sisters" as the baptized; you said "brothers and sisters in Christ" - basically the same thing.
Notwithstanding your reply, it stands as fact that the NCW treat the baptized and the unbaptized alike with respect to the catechesis program.
You chose not to address the catechists saying "There is nothing good in you! Nothing - Only selfishness and sin!"
You chose not to refute the statement:
"The NCW takes practicing Catholics from the pews - the same people who are reverent, formed by the sacraments, living in grace - and tells them that everything they knew about God was an error, and that they need to be "undone" by going back down into the font of baptism, where the "new man", in the image of Kiko's own existential moment, can be made."
Presumably because it is true?
You chose not to discuss what ontological changes occur through baptism, beyond simply "the Original Sin was removed".
In summary , this is a "semi-answer" as the substantial point was missed:
"you argue that it is RIGHT to treat the baptized and unbaptized the same!"
Dear Dianaismyrealname,
DeleteThe entire gist of your argument is the "brotherhood of humanity". After all, this is what you said in the beginning of your comment:
"Thankyou for proving my point. Instead of acknowledging that baptized people are ontologically and substantially different to the unbaptized, you argue that it is RIGHT to treat the baptized and unbaptized the same!"
And this is what you said in the ending of your comment:
"It is because the pagans are not "children of God", as we are, because they are not baptized. While they are certainly "creatures of God", they have not yet been adopted into his family.
So, the NCW needs to understand that when they treat the baptized as if they are unbaptized, they deny Christ."
I told you the reason why I call them "brothers and sisters". You call them "creatures" of God as though they are on the same level as the dogs, cows, pigs, and other creatures of the earth. The dogs, cats, and animals were never made in God's image.
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus' genealogy is traced back only to Abraham to show that he was indeed the Messiah whom the Jewish people were waiting for. However, the Gospel of Luke traced Jesus' genealogy all the way back to ADAM, the first man. Why do you think that is?
The Church bonds herself with non-Christians because she recognized that all humanity form one community and all humanity are made in God's image and likeness. The Apostle Paul also never called the pagans in Athens "creatures." He called them God's offspring. The Greek word the Bible used for offspring is "genos", which is translated to mean "children." The Greek word for creature is "zoon".
Yes, this is the point:
Delete"So, the NCW needs to understand that when they treat the baptized as if they are unbaptized, they deny Christ"
which you have chosen not to address. It is not sufficient to say that we are all, baptized and unbaptized alike, children of God. You even admitted that there was some (unnamed) difference when you said:
"It is important to distinguish the difference between "brothers and sisters" and "brothers and sisters IN CHRIST.""
So, exactly what is the difference? And importantly, how is that difference recognized in the NCW, particularly in the early steps?
Dear Dianaismyrealname,
DeleteNowhere in my comments did I ever say or claimed that the NCW treats the unbaptized the same as the baptized. I have no idea where you got the idea that the NCW treats the baptized and unbaptized the same. That is an unfounded accusation that came only from you.
Dear dianaismyrealname
DeleteWhen we are baptized do you even remember your baptism no we are a dumb baby and just a drooler but like right now in my walk I see I’m not a Christian because I need it for my conversion
"Nowhere in my comments did I ever say or claimed that the NCW treats the unbaptized the same as the baptized. I have no idea where you got the idea that the NCW treats the baptized and unbaptized the same. That is an unfounded accusation that came only from you"
DeleteDear Diana,
it is not unfounjded. I have listened to the catechesis, nd I have read the directory. There is no distinction made in any practical sense regarding the baptized or unbaptized. All are equally mistaken and fooled by the devil -until of course the NCW can set us straight. IN the view of the NCW, any Catholic, including priests bishops and popes need to be catechized - and the NCW are just the ones to do it.
In a comment below Joker asks in what context we were told "There is nothing good in you! Nothing - Only selfishness and sin!"
Well, it was in the context of the catechesis that we heard this (not just once)- trying to prove that we were all like pagans - not Christians. If you need proof of this, look then at the comment by God is One above:
"in my walk I see I’m not a Christian because I need it for my conversion"
Seriously? I heard the catechists of the NCW say the same thing about "not being Christian". This is of the same family of errors as treating the baptized as if they are not. It is a denial of Christ utlimately.
If Christ is in you and you try to live accordingly, even if you fail, there is goodness in you. And if you are baptized and wish to follow Christ, even if you fail, you are a Christian.
The NCW tells you that you are not Christian, that there is nothing good in you, in order to completely take away anything other than the community as a support. It may be good to encourage people to lean on the Church/Community, but not if, in the process you deny Christ.
Dear Diana, just for fun, can you indicate in what way the baptized and the unbaptized are treated differently during the initial steps of the NCW?
DeleteDiana they are just trying to get desperate because they are just trying to get info on us because they haven’t attended a catechesis and about the steps
DeleteDear Dianaismyrealname,
DeleteIn our community, we have a brother who was a non-Catholic. During our Eucharist celebration, he was not allowed to receive the Body and Blood of Christ until after he completed the the RCIA program in the parish. We also have a Catholic couple who were married in court. They were also not allowed to receive the Body of Christ until after they married in Church. I do not know where you got the idea that the NCW treats baptized Catholics the same way as the unbaptized.
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DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteThat is because it is a POST-BAPTISMAL catechesis. Before the Way, have you attended any other Post-baptismal classes?
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DeleteDear Dianaismyrealname,
DeleteI made a comment, which you misinterpreted. I stated that the pagans are our brothers because all of humanity are made in God's image and likeness. You took that comment and misinterpreted it to mean that the NCW treats pagans like baptized Catholics. I never spoke of the treatment of pagans by the NCW. I simply made a comment saying the pagans are our brothers BECAUSE they were created in God's image and likeness like we were. This comment is supported by the Catechism of the Catholic Church and by sacred scripture.
Then God is one made this comment:
"in my walk I see I’m not a Christian because I need it for my conversion"
You did not ask what he meant by that comment, but jumped to the conclusion that the NCW teaches that we are not Christian. The NCW is fully aware that Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox are Christians, but many times we do not act like "followers of Christ". Ghandi said it best. He stated: "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ."
There are so many Christians who call themselves Christians, but fail to act like one. Just look at abortion. There are many Christians who commit abortion on this island. Is this behavior Christian? Look at our Guam Legislature. A majority of them are Catholics. They passed a same sex marriage bill. Is this Catholic behavior? If their behavior is not Christian, then why do they call themselves Christians? Because the behavior is not Christian, we need conversion. Conversion is a process in which we become like Christ. If you can misinterpret my comment, don't you think you may have also taken the catechist's comments out of context?
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DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteThis is the truth. If a Christian committed murder, that is not Christian behavior. He can call himself a Christian all he wants, but the truth is...a murderer is not a Christian simply because that is not the behavior of a Christian.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteAccording to the Statutes of the Neocatechumnal Way, everyone starts as a neocatecumate regardless of how many catechesis classes he/she takes. There is nothing in the Statutes saying to move people up past the second scrutiny if they have been a Catholic for 30 years or more. The statutes was approved by Rome, so we go by what the Statutes say.
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DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteThe Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way was approved by the Holy See, not by me or the Catechists. The Statutes clearly stated that a community will be born in the parish after a series of catechesis and a convivience. The Holy See did not make any exceptions to someone who has had 5 years or 30 years of Catholic faith. If you feel that the Holy See was wrong, then take it up with them. In the meantime, the catechists must and should follow the approved statutes.
Zoltan you maybe Catholic but just a name.and anyone can still murder.
DeleteMauricio
So Diaba, please clarify..a murderer is not a Christian! If i had committed murder but paid the price for my actions, I can no longer consider myself a Christian? My sins and actions is between me and my God! I do not need to be in a dark room told to focus on the flame of a candle and asked "DO you believe?" I don't need to gave a catechst tell me that only x amount of people will enter the kingdom of heaven. She stated a number. Sure sounded like she was trying to convince herself that she will be one of the many counted.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:03 pm,
DeleteCan you please create a username? A murderer is not a Christian simply because the act of murder is not a Christian behavior. A Christian is a person who repents from their sins. You can go ahead and pay the price for your action in jail all you want. As long as you are not remorseful or repentant of your actions, how can you call yourself a Christian?
The New Testament starts out with John the Baptist calling people to repent from their sins. When Christ started his ministry, his first preaching to the people was calling them to repent from their sins. Then at Pentecost, the Apostle Peter stood up, and his first preaching to the people was “Repent.” Repenting from your sins is a Christian behavior. Three times, the call to repent was made. The first was made by John the Baptist who prepared the way to Christ. The Second was made by Christ Himself at the start of his ministry. And the last call for repentance was made by Peter, the leader of the Apostles and the first Pope.
You stated: “My sins and actions is between me and my God!”
Your sins and actions are NOT only between you and God, but also with the entire Church. When you murder someone, do you honestly think that it was only YOU who got affected???? 🙄. You do not think that the families and friends of the person you killed will not be affected???? Is that how you think?
When you murder someone, you will be hearing and seeing exactly how your sin was an offense not only against God, but also against other people. Do you not read the newspaper??? Did you not read and see how the widow and family of slain officer Piolo was devastated because of the sin of the other officer who killed him??? Oh my goodness........How can you be that blind?
Reread your comment Diana. You never stated anything about being renirsedul or repentant.
DeleteDianaJanuary 6, 2018 at 4:11 PM
Dear Zoltan,
This is the truth. If a Christian committed murder, that is not Christian behavior. He can call himself a Christian all he wants, but the truth is...a murderer is not a Christian simply because that is not the behavior of a Christian.
You generalized your statement. I am not blind.
"A murderer is not a Christian simply because the act of murder is not a Christian behavior. A Christian is a person who repents from their sins."
DeleteThen a Christian could at one point in his life have been murderer, IF he has now repented for his sins. All sinners, even those with mortal sin, are capable of becoming saints because He did NOT come for the righteous but for SINNERS. He can save a murderer just as much as he can save a thief.
So a murderer CAN be a Christian ONLY when he/she has repented for their crime. And isn't that between God and the sinner?
Dear Anonymous at 12:46 am,
DeleteAnd this is your comment below:
AnonymousJanuary 6, 2018 at 8:03 PM
So Diaba, please clarify..a murderer is not a Christian! If i had committed murder but paid the price for my actions, I can no longer consider myself a Christian? My sins and actions is between me and my God! I do not need to be in a dark room told to focus on the flame of a candle and asked "DO you believe?" I don't need to gave a catechst tell me that only x amount of people will enter the kingdom of heaven. She stated a number. Sure sounded like she was trying to convince herself that she will be one of the many counted.
Let us take a look at ONLY THE FIRST SENTENCE of your comment, shall we?
You stated: "So Diaba, please clarify..a murderer is not a Christian!"
This is my response to just that first sentence: REALLY???? You need CLAFIRICATION?????? Are you kidding me???? You cannot figure out on your own that a murderer is not a Christian and you need clarification on this????? So, yes....you are blind.
Dear John Doe,
DeleteYou stated: "So a murderer CAN be a Christian ONLY when he/she has repented for their crime. And isn't that between God and the sinner?"
Yes, the repentance and confession of the person is between himself and God. However, the sin committed by the person was an offense not only to God, but also to those affected along with the community.
The Church teaches that sin separates the person from God and the Church. To reconcile back to God and His Church, the person needs to go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He would also need to ask forgiveness from the family of the person he murdered.
Dear Zoltan at 4:10 PM,
DeleteYou wrote "Yes, I attended Catechesis classes in the past and that was very beneficial! We learned the Catechesis of the Catholic Church. Learning an interpretation of the catechesis and the Holy Gospel is not the same as learning the real stuff." That is a powerful statement to make! That is also the reason why I haven't been able to bring myself to join The Way. I want to learn the REAL STUFF!!
You are very brave to ask Diana "Why do you think that the interpretation of the NCW catechists is the only true interpretation? Why don't you see and teach the real stuff rather than some substitute interpretation of it?"
I noticed she didn't answer your question about catechesis but went back to the same old argument about the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way being approved by the Holy See. The STATUTES (rules) were approved alright. But what you're asking about is the CATECHESIS. And Diana has no answer about why the interpretation of the catechists are the only acceptable interpretations of the Holy Scriptures in The Way. She only parrots about the STATUTES.
Poor Diana.
Dear Anonymous at 10:29 am,
DeleteCould you please create a username. Actually, I did respond to Zoltan’s comment, but it was you who did not notice it. See my response above on January 6, 2018 at 4:43 pm and 5:29 pm.
Furthermore, Zoltan’s issue was NOT about the catechesis. According to Zoltan, his issue was the fact that because he had 30 years of Catholic faith and catechesis outside the NCW, he feels that he should NOT start at the beginning of the community, but be placed in the upper stage of the catechesis. According to Zoltan’s comment on January 6, 2018 at 5:11 pm:
“This is exactly what Dianaismyrealname is questioning. How can you call and treat someone as “precatechumen”, when the person has 30 years of good Catholic faith life behind her/her?! This person might have a deeper faith in Jesus than you or the catechists can ever dream of!”
Zoltan’s comment at 4:10 pm also says the same thing. Therefore, I highly recommen that you read the threads rather than make up your own story, Anonymous at 10:29 am.
In addition, Zoltan mentioned the interpretation of the catechists and also HIS interpretation. Apparently, he prefers HIS interpretation over the catechists. The problem with this kind of statement is that, there should only be ONE interpretation. That one interpretation comes only from the teaching Magusterium of the Church. The Catechists have the APPROVED Catechetical Directory from which they get their interpretation.
Poor Anonymous at 10:29 am.
Actually Diana at 11:08 AM, my username is Poor Diana because I feel sorry for you. Whenever someone takes the side of someone you oppose you take it so personally. You shouldn't. It's not personal. It's business.
DeletePoor Diana
Dear Poor Diana,
DeleteMy comment to you was not a personal attack. I simply disputed your statements. And now you have nothing to say except this? 🙄 your comment here is a personal attack, and you resort to it only because you lost the debate.
Incidentally, the third Eucharistic prayer refers to: "our departed brothers and sisters", not to: "our departed brothers and sisters in Christ".
ReplyDeleteThe second group is referred to as: "those who were pleasing to you at their passing".
Evidently , the Church makes the same distinction.
Dear Dianaismyrealname,
DeleteAll Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ despite their imperfect communion with the Catholic Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
The Orthodox Christians are much closer to us that St. Pope John Paul II called them the left lung of the Church.
Great delivery. Great arguments. Keep up the amazing effort.
ReplyDeleteDianaismyrealname,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned,
So when we hear the catechists saying "There is nothing good in you! Nothing - Only selfishness and sin!", we know they are wrong, as we have "put on Christ" through baptism, and bear Christ in our hearts.
My question to you is when & where did you hear this? Are you taking it out of context?
It really matters at what moment was this mentioned to you.
Every time someone says something about what "catechists" have taught, it is always out of context.
Give us the whole story,
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Diana,
ReplyDeleteThank you for what you do. In this time of doubt and distress am great full for the truth being said even when no one wants to hear it. Keep up the fight we need people like you to push us to keep going.