I don't walk in the way, but I agree with Grow up in faith about JW. I see how the JW bashes and ridicules Diana by calling her dungbat. Many folks are turned off by JW's mud-slinging. They owe Diana an apology. I have yet to see Diana call Tim or any jungle folks any derogatory names.
That's why JW, LFM, and CCOG are losing the battle. All the mud-slinging, and derogatory name calling has a negative impact on their goal. The people in the silent protests are the same people. LFM had their first fundraiser, and only 70 people showed up. You would think that with all the fliers they gave out, they would get more people to their fundraiser, but they can't even get 100 people. Many people have given up on CCOG who said they would take AAA to court. That hasn't happen and it looks like it ain't gonna happen at all.
Diana, you talk about family abusers. I talked in a wider context, about evil and criminal activity you have to face and confront in your life.But okay. let's talk about the family. What to do if the husband is an alcoholic who regularly beats up the kids? Don't you have a duty to call the police and get the guy arrested? What to do if the husband is so wicked that he would sexually molest his own daughter? What would you do? Do you offer him your other daughter, as well? Come on Diana, this is insane!Laws are based on values, mostly Christian and Catholic values. You allow the law to intervene, because of the evil happening in your family. It is your duty as a citizen, it is your duty as a Catholic, as well! "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matt. 18:6)You are not a slave of a man's desire. Or if you choose to be one, it should be your own decision about yourself. But you cannot make your kids, your sons and daughters to be slaves together with you. It would be indecent. How dare you? You break them for a life time, push them into hell forever. If you allow this to happen then you are an accomplice in committing egregious crime and should be jailed together with the husband.Is this right, Diana? Is this true? Is it possible that I have misunderstood something about the teaching of the NCW about nonresistance? What does this teaching exactly state? What does it apply to? Does it have any basis in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or is it a pure invention of NCW?I appreciate if some people become better persons while "walking" in the NCW. It is something to applaud. But what about those people who become worse, more evil persons than before? What about those who become criminal? What about those who die on drugs? You don't talk about them, because they are out of picture. But they are real! Your self praise sounds like self promoting propaganda. But what is the reality of NCW communities? Do you really practice what you preach?It is a haughty idea to be like Christ in everything. You cannot. He is God, He is the Son of God, He is the Savior? Can you be all these things? Come on, be a bit more modest. You cannot make yourself crucified to save others. It was a privilege of Jesus and only Him. Only He could save the world in a divine action. Are you claiming you will be raised by God on the third day as He was? Come on, it will never happen to you. How could? Are you co-equal to the Lord? If you would be raised, then we would celebrate you at Easter and not Jesus Christ!
Dear Grow up in faith, You referred to Chuck White's post, which was referring about family abusers. Now, you are backtracking! Do you remember what I said about backtracking???You stated: "it is a haughty idea to be like Christ in everything. You cannot. He is God, He is the Son of God...." We are the sons and daughters of God, and with God all things are possible. The holy saints are testimonies of that. And some members of the NCW are also living testimonies.
No, Diana. I am not backtracking. My post is independent from Chuck's. I only referred to his post as an excellent occasion to start a good discussion about nonresistance as the NCW teaches. Are you up to this discussion? Or do you want to stick with Chuck's original post who is not even present here?Well, if you read then you know that my comment was my own take with my own questions, even though I quoted Chuck on the difference between an evil person and evil in general. Nonresistance is related to a whole lot of other things that we see as problems about the NCW.There is a reason I called you a while ago to return to our churches. If NCW is right about nonresistance, then it should be taught in the whole Church, not only at your community setting, apart from the parishes. However, if NCW is wrong about nonresistance, then this should come into light through honest discourse within the Holy Mother Church, so that the appropriate correction can be made.
Anyone who has walked in the way knows that Chuck White's analysis is correct. The NCW has distorted this teaching to suit its desire to control it members.
Dear Anonymous at 12:43 pm, Anyone who has walked in the Way as long as I have already knows that Chuck White was NEVER a member of the Way and distorts its teaching to fit his known agenda at whatever cost.
Is this not true that NCW teaches nonresistance to evil? What is the NCW teaching then? How about these quotes?Final Convivence, Vol.I, p.394:"St. Matthew is clear: Not to resist evil….It goes on to explain very explicitly what it means to love your enemies: not to resist evil….And not to resist evil, not only in the field of politics which is the most spectacular place to do it (you denounce certain things in the factory and they kick you out, but you become an idol in the eyes of your co-workers); not only in this area but also in other areas you must not resist evil: at a family level, a personal level, etc., accepting your reality of neurosis, of homosexual tendencies, of shyness. Accept the evil in yourself, take up your cross; recognize your reality of sin."From Kiko’s meeting with young members of the Way in Chile, June 5, 2005:"That Christian sister, who is at home, and the husband is violent, a proud and abusive man; but she knows that God has given the husband, because she wants to save Chile, not just Chile, save Africa. And she accepts it for love of Christ, that the husband arrives and says, “you’re an idiot, and it is dirty, always the same, always the same in this house.”"From the Convivence of Kiko and Carmen with 253 American bishops in New York, in April, 1997:"Therefore, if a married couple are [both] baptized and [each] is adult Christian, Christian, it is indissoluble, it is indissoluble! Even if the husband crucifies the wife, the wife knows that she – that is Christ – has the mission to bear the sins of the husband, let herself be crucified, to climb the cross and to offer for her husband his binges."By the way, I did not see Chuck promoting divorce. Where did you see it?
Dear Grow up in faith, You stated: "I only referred to his post as an excellent occasion to start a good discussion about nonresistance as the NCW teaches." That is exactly where I started. The NCW is known to save marriages, not promote divorce the way Chuck White does. In a family abuse, all family members need help. That also includes the abuser. Read my response to you in this OP. Where do you see the nonresistance thus far? We have always spoken out against abortion and same sex marriage. In fact, the Archbishop who walks in the Way spoke out against same sex marriage when it became an issue here in Guam. My blog spoke out against it as well. So, where do you see the nonresistant to evil in us???? It was when the LFM distributed their hateful pamphlets, during their protests, and all the evil and spiteful insults coming from Tim Rohr. Where in my blog have I ever called Tim or any of the jungle folks a derogatory name?
Dear Diana, how about you refute what he has written then, not just give some sort of half answer? Chuck has quoted scripture, the catechism and the apostles. Why not then go through what he has written and point out where he is wrong, otherwise (to quote someone you might know) "why do you strike me?".Or if you can't, perhaps you need to admit that Kiko is wrong (gasp!)
Dear Grow up in faith at 1:04 pm, Have you not listened to anything I wrote? Do you not even see that Chuck White distorts the Gospel of Matthew? According to the Holy Bible: Matthew 5:39-42 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, [fn] let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. What is the scripture above saying? Kiko is correct when he teaches that if a husband slaps his wife, she should not slap back. That would only make things worse. The best thing would be to get away from him rather than to hit him back. Now, what was Chuck White's suggestion to family abuse? In his blog, he quoted the catechism on self-defense. Why self-defense??????? Chuck talks about FAMILY ABUSE and criticized Kiko who suggested that the wife not retaliate against the husband if he hits her. And after all that criticism, Chuck points to the Catechism on SELF-DEFENSE. So, why bring up SELF-DEFENSE when speaking about FAMILY ABUSE????????? What message is Chuck White really transmitting? Self-defense means that you can defend yourself by hitting him back. As a matter of fact, below is what Chuck White HIGHLIGHTED as he quoted the Catechism: "it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor" The above quote is what Chuck White highlighted in his blog. So, what is Chuck White REALLY preaching????? Is he not saying that it is okay for the wife to kill her husband in self defense after he slaps her?
Dear Anonymous at 1:08 pm, See my response above at 1:33 pm.
Diana, you did not answer any of my questions. Please, read them again and respond. Are you afraid to answer them? What is the NCW's teaching on nonresistance, in light of the quotes from Kiko, your founder? Is he not the chief catechist of the international catechist team for life time? You get stuck with some sentences of Chuck, who is not even here. Please, move on. Talk to him, if he is coming here. Why don't you answer to those who are actually here on your blog? We honor your blog to come here and ask questions from you. Please, honor us and answer our questions. You even inverted the sequence of comments. What is your purpose? My comment at 1:04 PM came as a response (!!!) to your comment at 1:04 PM. So my comment should be after yours! But it is now preceding yours, confusing the reader. How and why did you invert the sequence of these comments? Are you manipulating the time stamp? What for?
Dear Grow up in faith, I already answered those questions. I already said that if a husband hits his wife, the wife should not hit back. That would only make things worse. That is the same thing as Kiko said:"That Christian sister, who is at home, and the husband is violent, a proud and abusive man; but she knows that God has given the husband, because she wants to save Chile, not just Chile, save Africa. And she accepts it for love of Christ, that the husband arrives and says, “you’re an idiot, and it is dirty, always the same, always the same in this house.”"Just as Kiko said above, when the husband tells his wife that she's an idiot or she is dirty, she is not to retaliate. Do you see anything in that quote saying that the wife is supposed to call her husband idiot and dirty? No, of course not. As Kiko said, she accepts it as a true Christian accepts it. A true Christian does not stoop to the level of her abuser. We follow the goal of the Catholic Church, which is to bring the sinners to Christ. One cannot bring sinners to Christ through retaliation, violence, or revenge.....which is the message of Kiko Arguello. St. John said in his gospel...Christ laid down his life to save us; therefore, we should also lay down our life to save our brothers. To keep an abuser from harming an innocent, you give your life in exchange just as St. Maximilian Kolbe did. If you do not want to give your life to save another, then you have your own choice to make. I already told you that the kind of evil that we do not need to resist are hatred, anger, jealousy, and envy.....the kind that the NCW here on Guam has shown to the jungle, LFM, and CCOG. If you continue to ask the same question again, your comment will be deleted. Simply read the OP and my comments on this thread.
"the kind of evil that we do not need to resist are hatred, anger, jealousy, and envy."How about violence? Violence kills and destroys. It mauls babies and leaves them hurt for a life time. How to handle that one? Let me recall the Michigan murder case where an Uber driver killed many people. One mother protected her children by her own body. She got hit by the killer, but the children were saved. Don't you need to resist violence?"Even if the husband crucifies the wife, the wife knows that she – that is Christ – has the mission to bear the sins of the husband, let herself be crucified, to climb the cross and to offer for her husband his binges."What does this mean? The wife is Christ? Is she supposed to "climb the cross"? How? For what? How about the baby who is suffering? Diana, I am not repeating questions, I try to keep focus on the meaning of nonresistance at NCW. We still haven't given the big picture on this. If I am wrong, please tell me in what and how. Are you helping me to pour clear water into the glass?
Dear Grow up in faith, You cited Uber driver and how the woman protected her children by her own body. And what did I just say in my previous post?????? Go back and read my previous post. I said that we are to give our life in exchange as St. Maximillian Kolbe did.........and you could not make that connection????
Grow up in faith questions clearly shows the underlying struggle people have with their own lack of faith.Shortly before the revolt of Judas Maccabeus (2 Maccabees 8), Antiochus IV Epiphanes arrested a mother and her seven sons, and tried to force them to eat pork. When they refused, he tortured and killed the sons one by one. The narrator mentions that the mother "was the most remarkable of all, and deserves to be remembered with special honour. She watched her seven sons die in the space of a single day, yet she bore it bravely because she put her trust in the Lord." Each of the sons makes a speech as he dies, and the last one says that his brothers are "dead under God's covenant of everlasting life".Grow up in faith should first answer his own questions first. Do I have the faith of the seven brothers or the mother?
Tim thinks the Vatican is corrupted. If that were the case, then who are the Catholic faithful supposed to follow? I guess Tim expects Catholics to follow him and not the corrupted Vatican. TimFebruary 23, 2016 at 2:07 PMFor the sake of those reading, it is quite obvious that one of the reasons Rome has not "acted" as we would like them to is because Rome itself is crippled with crooks. This is no secret to anyone who is following the Vatican news. This is nothing new, which is why I encourage people to read and know church history. Bad clerics started with Judas, and he was chosen by Jesus himself. Nothing to get upset about. The gates of hell will not prevail. Meanwhile, what Archbishop Krebs said last year rings true: that we must solve our problems ourselves. The more I think about it the more I realize that this wasn't just a gentle admonition. It was a coded way of saying Rome is too messed up to help you. You guys need to take this on yourself. As per today's post on the activities of the LFM and the CCOG, it is obvious that we have people willing to "solve this ourselves." The question is whether more will join them. It comes down to "people power." We will see if Guam has it. Apuron is betting that we don't.
Dear Anonymous at 5:28 am, When Rome sent a Vatican delegation to Guam last year, Tim Rohr was thrilled. I do not recall him saying anything negative about Rome. He even had a chance to speak to the delegation, and I do not doubt that he gave them all his EVIDENCE. So now, he thinks the Vatican is corrupted???? He is in denial. Rome is not removing the Archbishop simply because they have found that all the allegations from the jungle presented to the delegation were false and unfounded. People power???? It has been three years, and they are still trying to recruit members? That alone should have already told them that they do not represent the majority of Catholics on Guam.
Dear J, I understand you. You like to test your faith just like the faith of others. This is very natural thing to do. I also used to test my own faith. We all need a lot of faith, but some of us has more or less than the others. You bring this nice example from the Book of Maccabees about the refusal to eat pork. Jewish customs prohibit eating pork, just like the Islam. They take pork as unclean. In my family we do eat pork. My favorite is pork roast with veggies, yummy! But pork cutlet is also delicious with beans and sauerkraut. There is nothing unclean about pork! So thank you, I do not have the same faith as the seven sons who were martyred over the pork in front of the eyes of their mother. During WWII general Pershing executed Muslim terrorists by dipping their bullets in pig's blood. Just imagine the impact on their religious beliefs! Terrorism was instantly shattered because they did not want to die a disgraced death "contaminated" by pig's blood. According to their beliefs it would have been sacrilegious. Something to learn from the past for today. But just come back, dear J, to the protection of children from evil. It is more about little babies, not adult sons who make their own decisions. As a parent, you have to protect babies from harm, as the mother protected them from the crazy Uber driver who committed mass murder. If you have a little baby in your family, you exactly know what I am talking about. You don't want the little one to suffer evil.You see, dear J, that is why the mother has the duty, both as a citizen and as a Catholic faithful, to call the police on the abusive, drunken husband, if the guy tries to harm the little one. In child abuse cases only zero tolerance is acceptable! Saying that the mother has to accept suffering for the baby and "climb the cross" as Christ did is a big error of faith. The mother is not a Christ, she will never be. She does not have the capacity to save the world as Christ did! It is very questionable if she would ever be able to redeem her husband, but it is for sure that allowing the rampage of the unruly husband she throws the baby into living hell. It is against civil law to be accomplice in child abuse!So, dear J, how exactly are you advocating nonresistance in a very violent world?
Grow in faith....your comments were fixated on the NCW....now you are asking me; So, dear J, how exactly are you advocating nonresistance in a very violent world? This is good.Let me ask you the same question; exactly are you advocating nonresistance in a very violent world?
No J, as I told you before, I do not advocate nonresistance. On the contrary, I advocate fierce resistance to evil!"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matt. 18:6)No woman is a slave of a man's desire. Or if she chooses to be one, it should be her own decision about yourself. But she cannot make her kids, her sons and daughters to be slaves together with her. It would be indecent. How would she dare? She would break the kids for a life time, pushing them into living hell on earth. But if she is not insane and has a drop of clear conscience, then she must immediately call the police and get protection against an abusive husband who hurts the kids.If she does not resists then she is an accomplice in committing egregious crime and should be jailed together with the husband.
Grow in faith....thank you for your response and before the Way; I would have helped you lock the prison door and let that person rot.This is the way of the world; man's justice that demands retribution and lawyers. Care to take a guess of the number of man's laws in the civilized world?The Way has helped me understand and continues to help me live with two spiritual instructions from LUKE 10:27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.God and satan cannot live or exist in the same heart Grow in Faith. It is impossible. It is difficult to convert; to live a life in communion with Jesus Christ but please don't be so critical of people who are struggling do so.
How does Chuck White promote divorce?
Dear Anonymous at 9:59 am, Chuck White focuses more on the wife who was abused and virtually leaves out the abuser who is also a victim of abuse. In twisting Kiko's catechesis, he brought up the Catechism of the Catholic Church that dealt with self-defense, highlighting the part that stated: "it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder."Furthermore, in his last post he accused abused women of being "enablers". Regarding women who do not resist the abuse of their husbands Chuck White stated: “Enabling” does not win souls, and God does not want women to be codependent or enablers, or facilitators of their husbands’ addictions. Period. And no, it’s not good for their children to see this modeled for them." Nothing in his blog says anything about getting help for the husband. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, strives to help ALL in the family because abuse affects all of them. Helping only the wife and not the husband will not help the marriage. Most likely, it will end in divorce. The key is to get help to all of them.
This is a far cry from promoting divorce. If you are to accuse Churck White of that, you would simultaneously be accusing the catechism of the same.
Dear Anonymous at 11:05 am. As I said, helping only one family member will not save a marriage. The Church strives to help all family members.
If the husband had committed crime then he goes to prison. Pure and simple. If he needs help, there is counseling therapy at the prison available. If the wife visits him in jail, that is okay. But he must stay there until he pays the last dime for his crime. Does is sound strange to you, Diana? Well, it is real life, no fairy tale. Help is available for everyone at his allotted place.
Dear Anonymous at 11:21 am, That is not strange at all because that way is part of this world. However, the NCW, Couples for Christ, and other Catholic organizations were able to help the abuser and the abused without any jail time. Even St. Rita was able to convert her husband without putting him in jail.