AnonymousFebruary 1, 2016 at 1:23 PM
Vice and sin are still committed.
The Mormons and protestants continue to spread heresy.
The radical Islamists continue to rape, murder and pillage.
Politicians still lie.
And yes, Kiko Arguello and the NCW continue as if there is no problem with the NCW.
I guess you must think all of these come from God, because the "truth has not defeated" them?
I prefer to think that faith and reason can sort the good from the bad, and whether or not something "still stands" is not sufficient proof of its goodness, truth or beauty.
Evidently, you think differently.
The Mormons and protestants continue to spread heresy.
The radical Islamists continue to rape, murder and pillage.
Politicians still lie.
And yes, Kiko Arguello and the NCW continue as if there is no problem with the NCW.
I guess you must think all of these come from God, because the "truth has not defeated" them?
I prefer to think that faith and reason can sort the good from the bad, and whether or not something "still stands" is not sufficient proof of its goodness, truth or beauty.
Evidently, you think differently.
The following is my response:
Dear Anonymous at 1:23 pm,
God allows ALL those things to happen because He respects the freedom of man. God is not going to FORCE people to follow His commands, which is the reason why sin and vice are still being committed.
Nevertheless, the NCW stands not because of sin but because we are part of the Catholic Church, which was built by Christ. Jesus built a church for sinners. Since the beginning, the Church had always been filled with sinners. And the Church stood for over 2000 years not because faith and reason sorted the good from the bad. After all, the Church TODAY is still filled with bad people. ALL of them are sinners. The Catholic Church and all the organizations within her (such as the NCW) still stand because Christ is the Head and leads His Church where He wants it to go. The Church and all the organizations within her (which includes the NCW) still stand because Christ made a promise that it would.
Sin and vice will always exist, but only God has the power to turn something bad into something good. After all, the greatest evil was committed against His only Begotten Son. Killing an innocent man is evil, but from His death came the redemption of mankind. So, you see.....despite that we killed Christ (a bad thing), God allowed it to happen so that something good (mankind's redemption) can take place. Only God has the power to do with this.
The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners. The purpose of the Church is not to sort the good from the bad. Why? Because ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The purpose of the Church is to heal sinners so they become holy saints. It is only Christ through His Church that accomplishes this feat of turning sinners into holy saints. Only God has the power to take a sinner and sanctify him/her into a holy saint. The Church is a hospital for sinners, and God is the physician who comes to heal.
Diana, this is one contentious point of NCW ideology, that we are all sinners. It depends what do you mean by sinner. I can tell you a few definitions: sinner is who
ReplyDelete- was born under the original sin,
- is capable of sinning,
- have ever committed sin,
- keeps sinning no matter what,
- does not repent,
- does not go to confession,
- does not confess sin during confession,
- does confess sin but not sincerely,
- enjoys sinning,
- is addicted to sin,
- makes other sin,
- tempts others,
etc.
Which definition do you apply to
1. yourself?
2. others?
3. non-believers?
4. believers of other faith/ religion?
5. Protestants?
6. NCW members?
7. members of the Catholic Church?
8. clergy?
9. holy saints of the church?
10. Jesus Christ?
It would be helpful if you would answer these questions before you claim sinfulness for everyone. Please, do not get stuck with CCC paragraphs, try to argue. The truth is that nobody can claim sinfulness for others, only for themselves. Saying that you are a sinner is respectable humility, but asserting that others are sinners is pure arrogance.
In fact, the Church does not accomplish the feat of turning too many sinners into holy saints neither through Christ not by itself. Holy saints are very rare, less than one thousandth of a percent of the flock. Most of us would never become canonized. Sorry, but it is better to get real!
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteSince sin is an offense against God, then a sinner is one who offended God. There are only two people who did not have any sins.......Jesus and Mary.
Come on, Diana. How do you offend God? It is just an expression that is useless unless you tell the exact meaning.
DeleteFor example, which ones are offending God from the list above and which ones are not? Why do you think holy saints are offending God? How did Mother Teresa offend God?
Dear grow up in faith,
DeleteOut of curiosity, are you a sinner?
None of your business, Diana. Why do you think I have to tell you. You are not my priest. You say you are not even a priest. So how dare you to ask this question from people?
DeleteI can tell you this: I was born under the original sin and I am capable of sinning. I have committed sin in my life but I do not keep sinning no matter what. I do repent my sins and go to confession when I have to so to confess my sin sincerely. Sometimes I enjoy sinning but I am not addicted to sin. I hope I don't make others sin and don't tempt others. But, in fact, this part you never know for sure.
So please tell me, based on the above would the NCW call me a sinner? Yes or no? Here is the truth: NCW has no business to tell anyone or anybody on the wide world that this person is a sinner! NCW can blackmail its followers by any anti-Biblical ideology it wants, but cannot force those out of its scope to accept anything it claims. NCW is an authority for those only who accept this authority and submit themselves to it.
When NCW says somebody is a sinner, it tries to blackmail this person into obedience, into following its itinerary. But sorry, it is kinda repulsive tactic. The only one who can assert anything about the sinfulness of anyone is Jesus Christ.
You are not the one to talk in his name. NCW is not the one to talk in the name of Jesus Christ. If NCW does, it is proof that NCW is not Christian.
Dear Anonymous at 7:33 pm,
DeleteI asked grow up in faith if he was a sinner simply out of curiosity. I take it you are "grow up in faith" as anonymous now??? I am not asking you to tell me your sins. I simply asked if you are a sinner. That is a yes or no question. Pope Francis did not have a problem saying that he is a sinner. He said it publicly.
Should be an interesting conversation on judgment day....are you a sinner grow up in faith?.....well Lord...never on Sundays...and there a more serious sinners out there than I Lord.
DeleteThank God for only he has the patience to have a spiritual dialogue with people who live in denial?
J. BAutista, you are so obsessed about Judgement day. You are in denial too. you do not even know what a sinner is. You have no idea of what sin is? do not give me a catechesis coz i know what you are going to say. Sell your house and give the money to the poor. That is my challenge.
DeleteHi Diana, yes I am grow up in faith. I am sorry, I just hit the wrong button and my message came up as "Anonymous", but it is me.
DeleteLet me repeat, it is none of you business if anyone is a sinner or not. Now, high pressure groups employ this technique for recruiting. If you read Chuck White's blog, you see that NCW tells people "you are a sinner" so that people join the NCW. NCW offers a high road to heaven to attract people into their ranks. It is wrong. There is no high road to heaven. We are saved by Jesus Christ only and nobody else.
Chuck made the conclusion that NCW must be a sect, because this high pressure technique teaching about sinfulness is sectarian. But he might have rushed into an early conclusion. I haven't made up my mind yet in this regard. I would like to see first, why is it so important for NCW officers to talk this language of overarching sinfulness.
What I see here is just a play with the words. In my top comment to this topic I listed 12 different ways to talk about sinfulness. You haven't told me yet, which sense you are using. I also asked 10 questions about how do you apply your concept of sinfulness to 10 different kinds of people. You haven't answered to any of these questions yet. Why? You can't?
I understand your curiosity, dear Diana, but what you do is rude and inconsiderate. You cannot invade into other people's minds and private feelings. I only owe confession to my confessor who is my priest. So why don't you just respect the sanctity of this particular sacrament and leave this business on the priests?
As I told you I was born under the original sin and I am capable of sinning. But I do not keep sinning no matter what. The rest is none of your business. NCW shows a tendency to define Catholic conscience. It is wrong. NCW can set regulations for members of the NCW or followers of the NCW, but definitely cannot tell anything valid about the human condition apart from the church.
If you feel you are a sinner, it is your business. If you feel everybody else is a sinner, it is still your business. But saying it aloud is not! If other Catholic people have different view about sinfulness in general, it is absolutely none of your business. So please, stay off my grass and live in peace on your own.
NCW may remain on Guam in the long run by conquering your "sinners", but won't take over the church ever. Because not every Catholic thinks and feels like you do. Our guide and leader is the head of the church, Jesus Christ! Blessed be his name forever.
Dear J. Bautista, what kind of denial you think other people live in? Following Jesus Christ is not something negative like denial, but something positive! Jesus did not live in denial. But he opposed the ungodliness of the people of his time and he denied to submit to the power of the high priest and the scribes. Therefore, he had to die.
DeleteWe faithful Catholics have to deny many things that is coming out of NCW ideology and high pressure technique. I for one deny your right to accuse people and the right of NCW to talk in the name of Catholics. NCW is a very tiny fraction of the church. You should see the log in your own eye before you pick on the speckle in the eye of others.
and you....you have the self righteous claim to know what is right and wrong...what comes from Christ...what does not. You are a hypocrite.
DeleteA challenge for anonymous February 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM
Deletesomeone who is too cowardly to state their name.
Not a challenge.....elementary school yard antics
All talk, words JB. Sell all you have and give to the poor. Then i will believe.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:31 am,
DeleteDo you honestly think that it is impossible to sell all you have and give to the poor? That is what the mission families and itinerants of the Way did. Christ asked the rich man to do the same thing, but the rich man could not do it. It is only with God that it becomes possible. How unfortunate that you will not believe that oh ye of little faith.
Dear Diana, I sent you my comment that it was me who accidentally sent a message as Anonymous 7:33 PM above. I am sorry, I hit the wrong button. What happened to this comment? I cannot see it on your page. Was it eaten by the cat?
DeleteI asked you which of the 12 meanings you use for "sinner" from the list I provided on the top? If you can't answer this question then the conversation would lose meaningfulness, I'm afraid. Look also at the 10 different kind of people I listed. Which meaning of sinner do you apply to them?
I am talking about the two separate lists, the 12 meaning of sinfulness and the 10 different kind of people. Thanks.
Dear J. Bautista, I don't know the right from wrong by my own, apart from Jesus. Jesus is the one who tells me in the Bible. So whatever I know, I know it from Him! I recommend you too to read the Bible when in doubt. It is the Word of God! Jesus tells "I am the Word of God, I am the Light of the world." Don't you believe Him?
DeleteJesus came to the sinners and prostitutes to bring them to God. He was opposed by the high priest and the scribes. That is why He had to die on the cross. So come out of your bondage and embrace salvation. Be a sinner no more. As a faithful Catholic, you can do it. This is the meaning of salvation. What else could be?
DeleteAnonymousFebruary 4, 2016 at 6:31 AM
All talk, words JB. Sell all you have and give to the poor. Then i will believe.
Already done.....you are 08 years behind my all talk brother in Christ
Seriously? Do you call that a response? How about posting the entire conversation?
ReplyDeleteNo? Well here it is:
"AnonymousJanuary 29, 2016 at 10:00 PM
Dear Diana, I'm quite happy to discuss the entire book, or books if you like. However, it wouldn't be a very productive conversation if you aren't able to read it yourself.
DianaJanuary 31, 2016 at 11:35 PM
Dear Anonymous at 10:00 pm,
Once a person has made up their mind about the book, this discussion would only go around in circles.
AnonymousFebruary 1, 2016 at 10:38 AM
I agree. You are totally inflexible and resistant to the truth. It would get nowhere.
DianaFebruary 1, 2016 at 10:43 AM
Dear Anonymous at 10:38 am,
What you perceive and proclaim as "Truth" has not defeated Kiko Arguello and the NCW. It has not changed anything. The NCW still stands.
AnonymousFebruary 1, 2016 at 1:23 PM
Vice and sin are still committed.
The Mormons and protestants continue to spread heresy.
The radical Islamists continue to rape, murder and pillage.
Politicians still lie.
And yes, Kiko Arguello and the NCW continue as if there is no problem with the NCW.
I guess you must think all of these come from God, because the "truth has not defeated" them?
I prefer to think that faith and reason can sort the good from the bad, and whether or not something "still stands" is not sufficient proof of its goodness, truth or beauty.
Evidently, you think differently."
So, now, the point is this. You seemed to claim that because the NCW still carries on doing what it does, all criticisms of it are therefore untrue, and (by implication) it is something holy.
So I pointed out that bad things also carry on, and by your logic, they must be holy and good too.
Its just stupid logic - to which we have become accustomed on this blog.
Dear Anonymous at 11:35 pm,
DeleteYour comment has not refuted anything I said in the OP. All you did was copy and paste quotes. I already said that the NCW still stands because it is part of the Catholic Church. Anything that goes against the Church and all organizations within her (which includes the NCW) cannot be defeated because it comes from the living God. As long as the NCW have the support of the Pope, we are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church which Christ promised to be with until the end of the world.
As you can see, the jungle, LFM, and CCOG with all their efforts combined have not even made a single dent in destroying the NCW or in removing the Archbishop. The people who were out protesting in front of the cathedral yesterday were basically the same people who have been protesting since the beginning. Their fliers have produced nothing.
Ok. You said that "What you perceive and proclaim as "Truth" has not defeated Kiko Arguello and the NCW. It has not changed anything. The NCW still stands."
DeleteWhat is this except a defense of the NCW by claiming that its enduring presence (ie, it hasn't "been defeated" yet) is proof that it is good, correct and inspired?
The response to that is to point out that there are many evils that endure too - some even within the auspices of the Church - and that by your logic, they also must be good.
You always seem to misunderstand. Is it because you are basically stupid, or is it because you simply fear facing the truth?
You also said "The purpose of the Church is not to sort the good from the bad."
Pretty much every Church Father "sorted" the good doctrine from the bad. Pretty much every Council of the Church "sorted" the good from the bad. So while it may be that sorting good from bad is not the most primary description of the mission of the Church, it is true to say that sorting good doctrine from bad is, in fact, the concern of the Church.
But even that is not the point. I said that faith and reason can enable the believer, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to know what is good and to cleave to it, and to know what is evil and reject it.
Remember - "test everything, and hold fast to what is good".
Dear Anonymous at 3:36 pm,
DeleteYou stated: "The response to that is to point out that there are many evils that endure too - some even within the auspices of the Church - and that by your logic, they also must be good."
Are you now saying that God's Church will fall due to the evil within the auspices of the Church? Do you honestly think that He lied when He said that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church? The Church and all organizations within it comes from God and will never be destroyed regardless of the fact that the members of the Church are bad. Why? Because Christ is the Head and has always been the one leading His Church where He wants it to go.
You also stated: "Pretty much every Church Father "sorted" the good doctrine from the bad."
And what bad doctrine comes from the NCW? Is it the doctrine that YOU ascribed to the Way by reading only page 51 and ignoring the rest of the book?
ReplyDeleteWho finances this LFM?
Who is behind all this.?
What if the local hospital AAA and minions (NCW) is the cause of the outbreak of illness and chaos, and poison. What if the medicine they are giving out is the poison that JW is trying to take away? Have you ever thought about that?
ReplyDeleteThe medicine is too strong a dose for JW. Thier body is rejecting it....
ReplyDeleteNeed to lower dosage....to help the body heal and not shock it from the medicine that is trying to heal and save the "SOUL".....
That is what I thought about in your last post......
Learn truths about Father God ms Dina before writing nonsense.
ReplyDeleteYou sound uneducated in catholic faith.
Dear Anonymous at 4:09 pm,
DeletePlease enlightened me rather making such senseless comments. What part do you disagree with in the OP and why??? Is it the part where I said that God comes to heal us? Do you believe that God does not come to heal us from all our infirmities?
How do I find a community near me? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteDear Christopher,
DeleteWhere are you from?
The reason we still question AAA is coz he hasn't been straightforward with us. The certificate of titles, for example , is a sham. The deed restriction wasn't listed on it, and it should be there coz it's an encumbrance. The certificate of titles should list all encumbrances, Diana.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:54 am,
DeleteThe Pacific American Title conducted a title search AND an encumbrance report. Their encumbrance report showed that the Declaration of Deed Restriction was NOT an encumbrance at all, which is the reason why it was not listed in the Certificate of Titles.
Tim Rohr deceived you. Why do you think he focused your attention on the Denver law firm and said nothing about the Pacific American Title report? However, if Rohr feels that a crime has been committed, why is he not reporting the information to the police?
Why do you want to take the seminary away from the seminarians? It belongs to them and those who provide education for the future priests. By juridical language: it belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana and the owner is the Archbishop. That is all laid down in the appropriate documents.
DeleteIt does not matter how much Tim Rohr is talking about the seminary, it remains an institution for priestly education that won't ever change! Period. The subtleties of juridical language might be read by lawyers because of their profession, but lay people just don't care much about that. All they care about is that the seminary is in good hands, contributing to the better service of the Catholic people of Guam. What is your concern beyond that?
If you really want to help the situation, stop complaining. You should applaud those who choose religious life and enter the seminary. Support their vocations. It is only fair that the faithful contributes to the expenses because the utility costs are running high. But if you choose otherwise that is your decision. I just let you know that regarding me and my household we will.