Sunday, March 16, 2014
The Danger of Pride.
Father Neil has a Ph.D in Liturgy. His letter is posted here. According to his letter, he stated:
We have a Church that today has many liturgical rites, we have a special form of liturgy for use in the former Zaire, for use by the former Anglicans and those who use the Extraordinary Form are allowed to maintain their particular liturgical spirituality and practices. What binds the Catholic Church together is not uniformity in liturgical practice, but unity in belief and faith in communion with the Successor of Peter.
This past summer I personally attended Mass in at the Opus Dei shrine in Torreciudad (Spain), at London's Brompton Oratory and a Pontifical Mass in the Extraordinary Form celebrated by Cardinal Burke at the Fota Liturgical Conference in my native city of Cork (Ireland). While not everything in these celebrations would be my own cup of tea, I have no diffculty in accepting that these are valuable parts of the Church's liturgical treasury and I appreciate how they can help in the salvation of many souls. In a similar way, the minor liturgical adaptations that have been granted to the Neocatehumenal communities are precisely to help them answer to the needs of the New Evangelization and bring people back to the Church and to a fuller encounter with the Risen Lord.
Those who have so much pride dismiss this letter. They point out that Father Neil (an expert in liturgy) is incorrect by comparing the Neocatechumenal Way with other rites just as Mr. Rohr said in his blogsite. His reason is that the Way is a post baptismal catechesis within the Latin Church under which it is constituted and by which its Statute is approve and therefore not a rite and cannot be compared to others with rites.
This is what the Statutes of Neocatechumenal Way stated in its footnotes page 21-22 in its explanation of "post-baptismal catechumenate":
5 "An itinerary of a catechumenal type, which follows all those phases which the catechumens in the early Church followed before receiving the sacrament of Baptism...(See Post baptismal Catechumenate.........)
It is inspired by various documents of the Holy See, including:
- chapter 4 of the RCIA [......] which suggests an adapted use of the catechesis and certain rites proper to the catechumenate for the conversion and maturation of faith even among baptized adults;.............
- JOHN PAUL II, Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles Laici, 61: "A help [in the formation of Christians] may be given...through a post-baptismal Catehcesis of a catechumenal kind, by means of re-proposing some elements of the Rite of Christian Initation of Adults, aimed at leading to the acceptance and living of the immense and exraordinary riches and responsibilities of one's Baptism";
You can read the rest of the complete footnotes found in the Statutes here. Bear in mind that the Statutes were already approved by the Vatican in 2008. So, yes, the Neocatechumenal Way has adapted certain rites proper to the catechumenate needed for the conversion and maturation of the faithful, just as it says in her statutes and just as Father Neil said in his letter: liturgical adaptations that have been granted to the Neocatehumenal communities are precisely to help them answer to the needs of the New Evangelization and bring people back to the Church and to a fuller encounter with the Risen Lord.
This is what happens with one who carries a lot of pride. They question the expertise of others, thinking that they know better than the expert. Father Neil is the one with the Ph.D in Liturgy.
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Dear Diana, I am afraid, people at the JungleWatch would not pay attention to Fr. Neil's thorough arguments. There is a totally dishonest atmosphere there, people are making comments that absolutely make no sense, other play roles... I was engaged again into discussion, but then my responses are not published. This is how Tim Rohr operates his blog over there.
ReplyDeleteIf you allow me, I would like to place here two of my responses that were censured out from Tim's blog. So these are comments that I made, but were not allowed to appear. The first is a direct response to Tim about unity in the Church:
"Tim, we are members of the same Body, that of our Christ. We are all unified in the Eucharist, when we are one unit, one big community, one Church. We receive and consume the Body as one! The Church regulates small faith communities properly:
"The community includes single people, single parents and their children, godparents, relatives, neighbors, or anyone called to share in family life. Not all members must live under one roof, but all the members should be trying to share daily God's word, the Eucharists, prayer, time, possessions, and meals with at least some of the community's members."
http://www.presentationministries.com/brochures/IntroCommunity.asp
You misinterpret what I am saying. I have never said the Way is not Catholic What I said is the exact opposite! Please, do not give false interpretations and distortions to your readers."
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteAs you can already see, Tim Rohr questioned Father Neil who has a Ph.D in Liturgy as though he knows more about Liturgy than he does. Rohr said that Father Neil was wrong to compare the NCW to others with rites because the NCW is not a rite.
I said this before....I don't think Tim Rohr is interested in knowing the truth about the Neocatechumenal Way. He has already made up his mind about it. So, even if the Pope came out and said that the Way has no liturgical abuses, it will not change his mind. This is why I refuse to meet with him. He is only interested in knowing who I am, and my identity has nothing to do with what I posting on the Statutes or Father Neil's letter.
I completely agree with you, dear Diana. He acts as if his blog would be an alternative universe, where he can hide away from the reality and distort everything to the point where it only reflects his own mind. Even his own followers question him recently and express their disagreement.
DeleteReally Zoltan someone disagree with Tim? I hardly go to his blog. Please do share.
DeleteHere is a comment from last Saturday, under the same post:
Delete"Anonymous March 15, 2014 at 10:34 PM
I also didn't see Zoltan saying the neo-catechumenate movement isn't Catholic. I don't like the NCW either but, Tim, please clarify."
Of course, Tim was not able to clarify.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteTim Rohr is now clarifying it in his own post in Junglewatch. And he's interpreting your post the way he wants it. If you don't mind, I will print your comment in a new post to show how it is being taken out of context and misinterpreted for his own purpose.
The second comment that was not allowed to appear was to a certain Oleg, who made accusations based mainly on misinformation:
ReplyDelete"Oleg, why do you speak like that? I did not invade anybody, I am living and working on Guam. The Pope just approved 75 mission families from the Way to go to China, India, etc. for mission. See here:
"The Holy Father, with a special prayer and a solemn blessing, will send about 75 families who have offered their willingness to leave everything (work, home, family... ) and go on a mission in any city in the world."
Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/01/15/pope_francis_to_meet_neo-catechumens_on_february_1/in2-764294
of the Vatican Radio website
FYI my community in Chalan Pago will support 2 or 3 mission families from our own members who responded to the calling!
As about the Catechetical Directory, as you call it, it is a guide for the catechists. It is, in fact, not commercially available. Is this a problem for you? Do you want to join the catechists?"
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteI published your second comment. Your comment here deals with mission families. If anyone responds with name calling, it will not be published.
The NCW uses, implements, the Rites of Baptism, RCIA, Penance, derived from the Roman/Latin formation of Liturgical Rites in the formation of one's faith. However is the NCW in ITSELF a Rite?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
Or is it a device/organization for the "Itinerary of Catholic Formation"? as NCW itself expresses itself to be:
http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=statuti
Dear Peter Palomo,
DeleteThank you for the clarification. You are correct that the NCW uses, implements, and even adapt certain rites just as the Statutes and Father Neil pointed out. Because we use rites, the NCW can be compared to others who also uses rites. Opus Dei is also not a rite; yet, Tim Rohr says that the NCW cannot be compared to a rite. And this was what I was responding to. In his letter, Father Neil also did not compare the NCW to a rite. He compared it to the Opus Dei who also uses and implements certain rites.
Therefore, I will correct myself. The NCW uses rites just as the Opus Dei and therefore the NCW can be compared to the Opus Dei just as Father Neil did in his letter. Both Opus Dei and the NCW have their own liturgical rites that they use, which is appropriate for them.
This is correct! But you cannot reach this kind of agreement over at JungleWatch, as Tim is jealously preventing any meaningful exchange of thoughts. His dishonesty is revealed, for example, by the time stamps that clearly show his delaying tactics and manipulations with the comments other people make.
ReplyDeleteHere is the evidence: the comment I sent to him was published here at 9:50 p.m. yesterday, because JungleWatch did not allow it to appear. It was not there at Tim's blog even after 10:00 p.m. last night, when I checked. Now, Tim wanted to cover up his censuring activity by publishing my comment -- afterwards. Yes, some time after 10:00 p.m. yesterday. However, the original time stamp when I submitted the comment showed up as 11:19 a.m.!! Wow, what a blunder, Tim! This is the way you work.
If you have time, please check out that what I am saying here are the facts.
In defense of Tim, i doubt he screens his site 24/7 as he has a life. To say that he is manipulating the output to his site in other ways than what he openly prescribes and screens to be suitable material then it is really reaching to a conclusion without facts.
ReplyDeleteDear Peter Palomo,
DeleteIt's not the screening that I see as the problem. It's what he writes. For example, one of the topic of his posts states that "Zoltan confirms that the Neocatechumenal Way is not Catholic." Zoltan never said such a thing. In fact, he finished his comment with "We ask you to, please, respect our community based Catholic lifestyle."
Another way to say this, the footprints point to one single (and always the same) JungleWatch author.
Delete(typos corrected) Peter, there were between 20-25 comments posted on Junglewatch between 11:19 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. yesterday. It is undeniable that my response was delayed deliberately. This level of intellectual dishonesty reveals an unparallelled obsession with the Way. This very unique and characteristic obsession is shared by almost all anonymous comments at JungleWatch.
DeleteExactly Peter, Zoltan and Diana - Tim twist what you states. Please be careful.
ReplyDelete