It appears that even the dancing in the Neocatechumenal Way is a problem for those not walking in the Way. Dancing is an expression of joy, and I don't see why being joyful in God's presence would be considered a desecration to those not walking in the Way. How is our music and dancing in honor of God be a desecration? Why do they despise our joyous dancing? I would think that doing something sinful or unholy in God's sacred place and in His presence would be more unacceptable and intolerable. But singing and dancing in honor and worship of God......a desecration??
Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God does not change. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. And one can see in the Old Testament how the Jewish people treated God, who resided with them in the Ark of the Covenant. King David built a tent for the Ark of the Covenant. This tent serves as God's sacred place and there was a lot of joyful music and dancing in God's presence.
1 Chronicles 15:28-29 So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouts, with the sounding of rams' horns and trumpets, and of cymbals, and the playing of lyres and harps. As the ark of the covenant of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despied him in heart.
Even St. John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when he felt the presence of the Lord nearby. So, even John the Baptist danced when he felt the Lord's presence nearby. Below is a short video of the NCW dancing around the altar after Mass is over, displaying our joy and honor for God.
The old would like a dull and boring type of mass. Go to a Sunday mass, it feels like a Funeral.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous,
DeleteI actually like both, and I attend both the parish mass and the Way's mass.
It is not only the dancing... way much more! Someone recommended this site for comment, Okay, I found a few people who have been there. They say strange things. Basically, there are 3 differences at masses in the neo-catechumenary.
ReplyDelete1. Their masses are inordinately long, because they make public reflections (called echo) after the readings. The missalette is banned! The rule of thumb in these reflections are that a. the name of the Nazorean cannot be pronounced and b. you have tell everybody what you did during the preceding week. For example an old lady bragged that she acquired a goat and now she will drink goat-milk every day. ;) It is real folks, they talk publicly about all kinds of nonsense during the official mass!
2. They sing too many unofficial songs, this also extends the mass time. Their songs are composed and worded exclusively by their Leader in Rome. Anyone who sings anything else is severely punished at once-a-month shouting matches they organize to let their steam out. These are called conviviance, a French word that nobody knows any meaning of. The lyrics of these songs sketch an alternative theology for Catholicism. For example, the Lamb of God in these songs is not the Nazorean but the Virgin Mary.
3. They go and round-kiss everyone in the room right before the offertory. They call this "peace". Just imagine an elderly grandpa going to a cute teenage girl whom he barely knows and demands two kisses. The girl has to comply. These practices take a long time during the service, that is why a mass at the neo-catechumenary is about 2 and a half to 3 hours long! No kidding.
I also heard that Pope Benedict was extremely concerned about these practices. However, he had to approve because otherwise nobody would go to China on mission. Almost like a blackmail situation. But why should anyone go to China on mission? They have Falun Gong, they don’t need Christianity. Anyway, I can completely understand why Pope Benedict decided to retire before his due time.
Dear Oleg,
DeleteI do not know where you got these rumors. First of all, the missalette is not banned. The name of the Nazorean (Jesus) can be pronounced. And there is no such rule as not telling anyone what they did the preceding week. The main rule is not to spread someone's echo out of the room because usually the person says something very personal about their life.
The songs we sing are mostl from the Book of Psalms, which is from the Bible. And you're exaggerating on the sign of peace.
So Diana, this "echo" is not actually private. If someone in the community decides to leave then the "echo" may become public knowledge. It's as if I need to tell my utmost secret to the community or maybe during conveyance and therefore it no longer becomes a private matter between me and my God.
DeleteThese are not rumors, but well attested facts from very reliable sources. The missalettes are banned for 2 reason: Scripture readings during the mass must be listened to from an assigned reader and the songs contained in missalette are not permitted to be sung in the neo-catechumenary. Are these true or not? The name of the Nazorean can only be pronounced by an ordained priest called presbyter. In particular, the deeds of the Nazorean are not permitted in the individual reflections or echos because the deeds belong to the Bible and you need an ordained priest to talk correctly about the Bible.
DeleteI said, in these reflections or echos you have to talk about what you did during the preceding week and not the other way around. My source told me only "I-sentences" are tolerated: you are permitted only to talk about yourself as in a psycho session. Discussion of the readings is not an "I-sentence" therefore it is banned. The secrecy of echos is not due to privacy but due to the inordinate amount on nonsense that are uttered during official mass time, right in the middle of a mass. It results in completely chasing away the sanctity of the mass.
The songs are composed by the Leader in Rome and are exclusive. There is only one single Psalm during the mass, all other songs are part of the alternate theology invented by the Leader in order to indoctrinate the members of his organization. I have to say the Virgin is not an eagle and she has never been one as these songs try to convince the gullible. The Virgin is rightly called Mary, mother of the Nazorean.
The "peace" as you call it is a time of enforced kissing all around the room among people who may or may not know each other. Some immature younger members even count the "scores" that is the number of kisses they harvested from other sexually attractive members of their community. At least this is what my source is telling me.
@ Oleg your heart is filled of critic and skepticism. I'ts hard to explain it, you have to experience it.
DeleteEastside Agana
Dear Anonymous at 8:18, a.m.
DeleteA person cannot take out another person's echos. In other words, what is heard in the room should not be taken out of the room because some of the echos from the brothers are personal. However, whatever personal things I want to reveal to the communities are my own. I can even reveal personal things about myself outside the community if I choose.
Sorry Oleg but your source is wrong. Or you misinterpreting what he/she is saying.
DeleteDiana and who is to say the if a member leaves the community, this echo will about John or Jane Doe will not leak. You are so trusting yet so ignorant.
DeleteDear Anonymous,
DeleteThat will be between the person and God. I trust God that God will take care of it. Justice belongs to Him.
Please, tell me, which information is incorrect:
DeleteAre you guys using the missalette during a mass at the neo-catechumenary?
Don't you have public personal reflections/ echos during the mass?
Are you using the name of the Nazorean in these reflections/ echos?
Who can talk correctly about the Bible? Everyone or only an ordained priest/ presbyter?
Don't you guys talk about what you did in the preceding week, do you?
Do you use anything else beyond "I-sentences"? Or is everything about "I, me mine"?
Do you sing any song at the mass that was not composed by your Leader in Rome?
Don't you call the Virgin Mary an eagle in your songs, or any other inappropriate name?
How do you call her?
Are your songs or teaching is available online? If yes, where? If not, why the secrecy?
Don't you have your "peace" before the offertory?
Don't you round-kiss everybody in the room as a "peace"?
Come on guys, you have to be honest with these answers!
people are told that whatever they hear from another person's echo which are sometime confession are to be kept sacred. Under pain of mortal sin if ever you are to divulge them in public
DeleteAnon's opinion is not necessarily a mindset of just the Neo (as evident in this blog and comments on others rationalizing the dancing); it's very present in the thoughts of protestants and other non-catechized Catholics. The Mass is not a selfish activity there for your pleasure and modification. That being said, I don't think that Neo dancing is to make the liturgy exciting. That would be an insult to Christ. If I were Anon at 3:01, I would rethink my reasons of why I attend mass and why I am dancing.
ReplyDeleteBtw, in terms of Rites, there is no such thing as a "Way" mass. You should clarify.
Dear Anonymous,
DeleteThere is also no such thing as a "parish" mass, but I think you understand what I mean. I attend both the parish and the Neocatechumenal Way because I love the mass in both of them albeit there are a few differences in them.
There is a special kind of mass at the neo-catechumenary that is distinct from other masses. It came out very clearly at the Junglewatch bog. There are concessions:
Delete1. monition before readings
2. personal reflections or echos after readings
3. sign of peace before the offertory and not after the Lord's Prayer
4. Eucharist under 2 species
5. receiving the Host while remaining at their seats
These are well established facts, please tell us if not true.
My source tells me that monitions and echos are actually egotistic outbursts in most occasions that distract from the readings that were assigned to a particular mass by the official liturgical calendar. Claiming the Holy Spirit in these activities is plain silly and disrespectful. The Holy Spirit is an awesome power and not simple minded blabber.
As a consequence of the concessions, this kind of mass can last as long as 2.5-3 hours, a complete waste of the time of the believer! Are these concessions creating a different kind of mass apart from the mainstream? Well, no question about it!
I can testify thousand of youths are outside the parishes who have left THE CATHOLIC Church, I was one of them 20 years ago. Now I'm back and I found in this charism. For those who have strong belief who has a better understanding of the Catholic Church. I didn't. Now I found this jewel with in the Church. You can insult it and knock it but It's hard to explain it. You just have experience it. It change my life and change my family. Oleg your personal attacks about the way will end you only OUTSIDE the box. You really have to experience it but if your heart is prejudice there is nothing you can do but criticize it,.
DeleteDear Oleg,
DeleteI don't know who your source it, but he/she is definitely wrong.
Dear Oleg,
DeleteFirst of all, we don't ban the missalette as you claimed. We use the missalette for preparation rather than for celebration. And we don't boast as you claim. We also can say Jesus' name, and the Catholic Church is the only one who can correctly interpret scripture....the Catholic Church being the Pope and the teaching Magisterium.
If you can get all these things wrong, everything else you heard is also wrong. You should read our Statutes, which has already been approved by Rome. We follow what's in the Statutes. Our Statutes is available on the Internet, so you don't even need to purchase it.
You are not straightforward and you are distorting my questions, dear Diana. The missalette cannot be used during the mass. You confirmed this. There was no talking about "boasting". I said you guys talk about yourself during mass time in "I-statements" because only an ordained priest/ presbyter can talk correctly about the Bible. That is the rule you follow. You seem to confirm also this one. You claim all other things I wrote about is wrong. But you are not telling the truth and I do not believe you. You forget that these things are very easy to confirm. My source has confirmed already. I am curious if you follow the same rules on you beautiful Guam in the middle of the ocean or not. It seems that you do follow uniformly everything coming from your Leader in Rome. So why don't you tell the truth, Diana?
ReplyDeleteLeader? Approved of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, your POPE Oleg unless your referring to your leader LUTHER? Hmmmmmmm?
DeleteUn Hombre de Espana
Dear Oleg,
DeleteI am not distorting your questions. You DID say that the missalette was BANNED from the Way's Mass. This is false. We never banned the missalette because we use it for the preparation. We don't use it during the celebration BECAUSE my community does not celebrate in the parish building WHERE the missalettes are located.
I don't think it would be right to steal the missalettes from the parish building to use it in our celebration, which is held outside the parish. However, communities who do celebrate in the parish building (as some are doing in the U.S.), the missalettes are there, so the members of the Way can even read and follow along in the Sunday readings if they want.
Please, Oleg, we don't need this attitude here. You are not for conversation, you are for controversy. You want to import this from the Jungle. Please, don't do it!
ReplyDeleteThe Missalette is not an issue, as Diana said. The Way has concessions from Rome, it is true. We follow these: about admonitions, echos, Peace offering and the Eucharist under two species. So what is your problem with these concessions?
The name of the "Nazorean" is Lord Jesus. Didn't you know?? Anybody can pronounce it. There is no previous week sharing at the echos, we reflect on what we heard in the readings. Is this hard to believe? Our songs are special, Biblical verses and sung for music composed by Kiko Arguello. Yes, it is available on-line! Interpreting the Bible belongs to the Catholic Church, as Diana pointed out. Please, tell me what do you think is wrong with that?! Our celebrations are just a little longer than regular church services, as we give time for the Holy Spirit to show his presence in our communities. Believe it or not, He is there.
Stop to spread your nonsense and superstitions, please. You said in the Jungle that Padre Pio got his stigmata from holding the Eucharist in his palm. This is untrue if not plain stupid! Read his biography, please, and keep your misinformations in the Jungle, okay?
Songs: http://irishsongs.tripod.com/cantos_ir.htm
ReplyDeleteSo Diana why is the Agnus Dei omitted in the NCW celebration?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous,
DeleteWho told you that it was omitted?? The Agnus Dei is included in our celebration of the Eucharist.
Obviously, Anon at 7:09 does not realise that a few years ago the NCW masses were amended so that certain parts, like the Agnes Dei, which had been omitted for many years, were reintroduced in most communities.
DeleteDear Anonymous,
DeleteThat explains it then. There are still some people in Junglewatch who also believe that members of the Way still receive the Body of Christ while sitting down. This was also changed. Now, we receive the Body of Christ standing up.
Yes, although communion is still received into the body while sitting down, at least in most communities I know. The omission of the Agnes Dei and the other parts of the mass, before the changes a few years ago, still raises some serious questions about the theology of the NCW. I think this is why, probably with good reason, many people point out that the NCW denies the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist. Because it was those aspects of the Mass that mentioned sacrifice that were omitted before.
DeleteDear Anonymous,
DeleteI don't know of any member in the NCW denying the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist. Also, the members of the Way receive the Body of Christ standing up. There are only two ways to receive the Body of Christ....either by hand or by tongue. The Way receives it by hand standing up, which is the correct way.
"Received into the body while sitting down". Is this not the case?
DeleteMy dear Oleg, I attend my Parish Mass and choose NOT to use the missalette as I can follow the Mass without reading it. Also LISTENING intently to the readings, Gospel is better for me than reading. I think it is a choice by attendees.
ReplyDeleteIt is worthwhile to look at the Wikipedia (!!) sometimes. I found this:
ReplyDelete"In his Canonical Observations on the Definitive Approval of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, Msgr. Juan Arrieta, Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, summarizes the liturgical concessions of the Neocatechumenal Way as follows:
'Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive standing, remaining at their place.'[42] The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host." (...)
"In an interview with the Spanish newspaper La Razón, Antonio Cardinal Cañizares, current Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, expressed his view on the Eucharistic celebration of the Neocatechumenal Way:
"There are no liturgical anomalies [in the Eucharist]; everything is in full compliance of the guidelines of the ‘Ordo Missae.’ What I have really seen there are Eucharists celebrated without any hurry, with a great faith, and where you can perceive the joy and the thanksgiving for the gift which is being bestowed in the Eucharist.” [43]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way
This is something our adversaries at JungleWatch should also read and humble themselves a bit...! ;)
Zoltan thanks for the info. I doubt this would convince Tim.
ReplyDeleteZoltan, be careful with Wikipedia. An overzealous editor has taken some licence with the statement from Msgr Juan Arrieta. Here is the text: http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=statuto08_4
ReplyDeleteArrieta does *not* say: "The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host."
This has evidently been added in a way to imply that the Msgr has said it, but you can check the text itself.
Here is what the Congregation for Divine worship says about the matter:
Notitiae 45 (2009) pages 242-243:
"Whether it is licit for the celebrating priest to take Communion only after the Holy Eucharist has been administered to the faithful or *distribute Holy Eucharist and communicate at the same time as the faithful*?
"Response: Negative to both"
After the official reply, there is a brief explanation of the reasoning behind it. Summing up, these arguments are:
All existing and traditional rites of the Church foresee that the bishop or priest first receive Communion. After the celebrant receives Communion, the various ministers receive according to their hierarchical order and then the faithful.
The priest receives first, not because of a human protocol but in virtue of the dignity and nature of his ministry. He acts in the person of Christ, for the purpose of the integrity of the sacrament and for presiding the people gathered together: "Thus when priests join in the act of Christ the Priest, they offer themselves entirely to God, and when they are nourished with the body of Christ they profoundly share in the love of him who gives himself as food to the faithful ( Presbyterorum Ordinis, No. 13)."
In order to understand the way things are done in the Neocathecumenal way, it is essential to be catechized in the principles of Christian religion which you will receive before entering the way
ReplyDelete