AnonymousAugust 29, 2016 at 11:12 AM
Dear Diana, the etymology of "presbyter":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyter
In my previous comment, I stated that the Latin word for priest is "presbyter" and the Greek word is "presbyterous" Anonymous then gave me the etymology of presbyter according to wikipedia. So, according to Wikipedia (the bold is mine):
Etymology[edit]
The word presbyter etymologically derives from Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), the comparative form of πρέσβυς (presbys), "old man".[3] However, while the English word priest has presbyter as the etymological origin,[4] the distinctive Greek word for "priest" is never used for presbyteros/episkopos in the New Testament, except as being part of the general priesthood of all believers,[5] with the first Christians making a distinction between sacerdotal Jewish and pagan priests and New Testament pastors.[6]
The word "presbyter" was derived from the Greek word "presbyteros" but it is NOT Greek. The Greek word is presbyteros meaning "elder.", but the English word priest has presbyter as the etymological origin.
Now, let us take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about the English word "priest" (bold is mine):
Etymology[edit]
The word "priest", is ultimately derived from Greek, via Latin presbyter,[1] the term for "elder", especially elders of Jewish or Christian communities in Late Antiquity.
As anyone can clearly see, even Wikipedia recognize that the word "presbyter" is Latin. As I pointed out in the discussion thread, the word "Presybter" is the Latin word for priest and I provided Dictionary.com as my evidence. Wikipedia did not contradict Dictionary.com but only verified it.
The language of the Roman Catholic Church is Latin. If you search for the word "presbyteros" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will not find it. But if you search for the word "presbyters" it is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism lists "presbyters" 11 times and 0 times for "presbyteros."
Do you not know English either? Ultimately from Greek. It's a loan word to Latin. After that it cognates. Goodness, it's like pulling teeth.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:14 pm,
DeleteThe word may come from a Greek word, but it is recognized as Latin rather than Greek. In the same way, I would never say that the word "priest" is Greek. It is an English word.
I think the main point is that "presbyter" and "priest" mean the same thing. People from JW often demean this word "presbyter", not even knowing that the word means the same as priest but only in a different language. As diana pointed out, the language of the Roman Catholic Church is Latin and you can find the word presbyter in the catechism while the Greek word is not found anywhere in the catechism.
DeleteJW say that we're not supposed to call our priests presbyters, but it seems that just another rule they made up on their own. If the catechism can use the latin word, why did they prohibit everyone else from using it?
Does the Pope call them priests or presbyters?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:42 pm,
DeleteThe Pope uses both words regardless of whether they are RMS priests or not.
No one ever said its a Latin word until you did. Even the wiki page says its Greek. Never mind. You have the right to be wrong, I guess.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:32 pm,
DeleteWhere did wikipedia say it is Greek? It says it came from the Greek word "presbyteros", but it never said it is a Greek word. In fact, wikipedia recognized it as a Latin word for the English word "priest."
The English language has its roots from Latin and Greek, but that does not make the word itself Latin or Greek. It becomes part of the English language and labeled as English.
ReplyDeletecmon guys! they're just saying presbyter to be different! it means the same thing! it's not that the word priest is bad or not really good enough, or not fancy enough, it's just to be different is all!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 3:25 pm,
DeleteWe never criticized the TLM Catholics for using the word "priest." They were the ones criticizing the NCW for using the word "presbyter". For the NCW, it never mattered. For them, it mattered so much that they demean the word "presbyter" without realizing that this was the word the Catholic Church had always used when Latin was language used in the Church before changing to the vernacular.
Dear Diana @4:02-
DeleteOf course you never criticized them for using "priest" -- because that's the term used since ever since. I bet even you used "priest" before you began Walking!
And if it never mattered, why change?
Dear Anonymous at 4:17 pm,
DeleteAll you had to do was read my blog, and you will notice that I ALWAYS called them RMS priests. I never called them RMS presbyters. In fact, if you look at the side of this blog under labels, I have a label that says "Priests and vocations". Therefore, I did not change and neither did the brothers in the Way. The question is why does it bother you so much when a person uses a different language?
Anonymous @ 2:58:
ReplyDeleteBy the English it is labeled as English. But I bet the Greeks, Spanish, etc still consider them Greek, Spanish, or whatever the origin of the word.
So, people, are we talking ORIGIN of word? First need to come to that agreement...
Dear Anonymous at 4:06 pm,
DeleteThis is exactly what I mean when I made my comment at 4:02 pm. The NCW does not care what language a person uses for the word "priest". They mean the same thing in different languages, whether it is Spanish, German, etc. The question is why does it bother the TLM Catholics that they criticize the NCW for it?
I suppose for the same reason that it bothered the Congregation for the Divine Worship?
DeleteTo "translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters".....cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of sacrality, that carries with it the history of the development of the faith in favor of a term which does not."
In other words, it seems that the Holy See believes that the reason some people prefer to use the word "presbyter", is because they want to discard the "sense of sacrality" and the "history of the development of the faith"
Now, who does that?
Dear Anonymous at 9:29 pm,
DeleteI was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. Look at the reason why that letter was written. It was addressed to a question that was sent to the Vatican. The question was asked whether they can use the word "presbyter" DURING THE ORDINATION. The Vatican said no that they cannot use the word DURING THE ORDINATION. So, it is only DURING THE ORDINATION of a priest that the word is not used. But YOU think it applies to everything else????
Please explain why it should not be allowed DURING THE ORDINATION, but elsewhere its fine?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:19 am,
DeleteThe answer to your question is written in that letter. Last week, someone asked me if we can replace the word "agenda" to "plan" in our meeting, I said no because the word "agenda" appears to be more appropriate than "plan" and I did not want to give the impression that our meetings have already been set into a plan without any input from other members. When I made that decision, does this mean that the word "plan" cannot be used at all anywhere else?
Is the jungle seriously getting upset with the use of the word? What are you? 12?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 6:24 pm,
DeleteYes. See the comment from August 29 at 9:29 pm.
I'm not with the jungle. I'm saying that Greek is Greek and Latin is Latin. Late latin is totally different than Augustinian latin, including the introduction of articles and such. By then presbyter may have been in with the renewal of Greek in the West, but since the Latin Fathers shunned Greek after the Vulgate, pls understand that when the Latins say priest, they say sacerdote.
DeleteBesides, the Greek presbyter/presbyteros as elder implies that they have the wisdom of the transformation of Christ in them. In their word and example, we would follow them, precisely because they are elders.They were also priests.
It doesn't matter to me one bit whether the way calls priests presbyters or not. Please just get the Latin and gReek part right. I"m only annoyed just like people say Chamorro is like spanish. No, it's not. It's the same kind of irritation.
Diana, why do we not have a response to any of the allegations that were made about the RMS? I feel like a punching bag?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 3:15 pm,
DeleteI do have a response, but I have not publish it yet. I apologize for not always being on the computer.