An anonymous commenter made the following comment under the thread of my last post, which I think is worth listening to. It is something that we can dialogue. According to the comment:
AnonymousJuly 9, 2016 at 1:05 PM
Dear readers,
Tim is doing all of this--whatever this is--not for money, not for admiration, not for pride. I've known him a long time, and I know the man well enough to know that when he speaks plainly, he means what he says. So what does he say? What's at the heart of all of this?
He believes that the Neocatechumenal Way is heretical. More to the point, he believes that Kiko Arguello is a heretic and is leading others into heresy and away from Christ. For the purpose at hand, it's not important whether it's true or not; I'm not debating that, and Diana has asked not to go there, so I won't.
That's the heart and soul of all of this. NOW BEFORE YOU SLING YOUR ANGER AND INVECTIVE AT ME, please listen first:
I'm not saying you're heretical. I'm saying HE does. He sees your celebration of the Eucharist as gutting the sacrificial nature from it and leaving only an "agape feast." He sees the reduction of the parish life to smaller communities as a destruction of our faith life. He sees presbyters who cannot answer hard questions of his (and they are challenging, to be sure) as evidence that they are malformed as priests.
In light of this, he knows the Archbishop brought the NCW to Guam, so it's on him. But why the anger? Because despite the good it's done for some, he's seen the darker side too. Blind obedience to authority is troubling. Why should real obedience be for Tim? Among many reasons, because a priests tried to make a move on him, and his bishop did nothing. So he's already loaded for bear where bishops are concerned.
But what really bothers Tim is that if the NCW is heretical, then all these souls on Guam are in the darkness (and for the love of God, I'm not saying your are--I'm saying that's Tim's side of things).
I'm sorry to say it again and again, but I have to since as we've seen above, no one here seems to know how to read and think before responding. And the same goes for the Jungle, where they have mastered the same fault.
What I'm saying is, this is the beef for Tim. This is the core of the man: defense of the Church as the Tradition says.
Just a few comments above my writing this is the comment that the JW people are all conservative traditional Catholics who have been hurt by Apuron. That's not quite true, but even if it were, why the attack on "conservative?" Aren't the NCW attacked as too "conservative" in faith and morals consistently?
My wife asked me a few minutes ago why I'm bothering with this. It's because I care. I want healing on the island. I want each side to see the other's--not to see our commonalities, but to clearly see the differences. Then we can make the peace, not by wishing for unity (God bless Arch Hon for trying) but by saying to ourselves, we cannot resolve differences until we clearly KNOW our differences.
Tim doesn't hate the Church, and yes you mockers, he actually does believe he is doing the right thing. So do you. Laugh all you want with your LMAO at me, it doesn't change the fact one iota that unless you understand your opponent and his REAL motivation, he will always beat you. ALWAYS.
Thank you Diana for your allowing this post. You are most gracious. It is my hope that it spurs a discussion born from charity and reflection. Yes, readers say, but the Jungle is vicious in its attacks. Perhaps so. But I see daily in the attacks that you become steadily like them in not reading, thinking, praying. Just reacting.
I've said it before. Don't just pray. Fast. Offer up your Eucharist for Tim. Even on JW there are comments about how his children should burn in hell. What a terrible cancer is present in our midst.
This is my response:
I do not know Tim Rohr as you obviously do, but I know that the Tim Rohr who wrote in "The Mass Never Ends" is a differnt person than the one who is now writing Junglewatch. When he wrote about the Neocatechumenal Way in "The Mass Never Ends", he was not as obnoxious and highly critical of the Way as he is now. At that time, he never said that the Way was not Catholic. Although he stood against the celebration of the Way, Tim recognized the good it has done. Nevertheless, Tim Rohr helped build up the Neocatechumenal Way on Guam. The Way needed The Jerusalem Bible or the New Jerusalem Bible, the Biblical dictionary, and the Liturgy of the Hours. Tim supplied all these to the Neocatechumenal Way through his bookstore. As the communities grew, he ordered more of the things the Way needed. So, although he believed the Neocatechumenal Way was not following the correct liturgy, he supplied the materials that the Way needed anyway. Archbishop Apuron brought in the Way to Guam, but Tim Rohr helped build it up by supplying the books the NCW needed in their celebrations through his bookstore.
Today, he says the Way is not Catholic and heretical. He resented the Way and severely opposed it ONLY after Monsignor James was removed from the Agana Cathedral. Tim would disagree with many things, but his use of profane words started only after the removal of Monsignor James. This was where the change in Tim Rohr began. That can be seen through his blog. The only time he called for the resignation of the Archbishop was after the removal of Monsignor James. Therefore, I believe the true reason for Rohr's change in behavior is the removal of Monsignor James.
Tim Rohr was already told by the Vatican Delegation last year that there is nothing wrong with the NCW and that it is fine. He kept this information from his followers. See the weblink here. Last year, he was told by the Vatican Delegation that the NCW is fine, so why did he keep this information to himself? Since the Vatican Delegation already said that the NCW is fine, then who should the junglefolks, LFM, and CCOG believe? Should they believe Archbishop Hon who is only second to Pope Francis or Tim Rohr who kept this information to himself?
If you know Rohr then you know how he teaches catechism and the Bible in his own way. He always makes an impression that there is a big secret and the ONLY person who can reveal what is behind the secret is himself. He, Tim Rohr, always and only himself! If you know him, you exactly know what I am talking about.
ReplyDeleteA typical trick is starting with "most Catholics think this way", then saying they are wrong, but "I'll give you the true meaning that way" and then he elaborates on his own personal views. It is not Catholic, it is alien from the catechism. Another thing is that Rohr is never reading the Bible with heart and reverence, he reads it as a dry text illustrating his own views. He does not really think the Bible is the word of God. You can tell how one feels about the Bible when you hear the person to read it aloud!
This is not the way to teach the Bible if you only want to make a difference in educating anyone on being Catholic! You teach that way if your goal is to get influence, adulation and power over souls. You do this when you use the Bible to display and raise your ego over the audience and make yourself the center of those things that should have a different center in the Lord Jesus.
The Bible should be taught with reverence. This is what we do in the NCW. Kids learn to respect the Word of God from the very beginning. Everything we read in the Bible is true. Indeed, it is the truth of our faith! We read the Bible and the Church interprets it for us through the catechists. How beautiful! How efficient! It is our life of walking on the Way of Christ.
DeleteIt is a worthy occasion to quote the Bible for our readers! My choice is today's psalm which is Psalm 69. It applies to our situation in so many regards! I will insert here this Psalm for soulful contemplation, 2 units a day, each unit consisting of 2-4 Bible verses.
DeletePsalm 69
Prayer for Deliverance from Persecution
To the leader: according to Lilies. Of David.
1 Save me, O God,
for the waters have come up to my neck.
2 I sink in deep mire,
where there is no foothold;
I have come into deep waters,
and the flood sweeps over me.
3 I am weary with my crying;
my throat is parched.
My eyes grow dim
with waiting for my God.
4 More in number than the hairs of my head
are those who hate me without cause;
many are those who would destroy me,
my enemies who accuse me falsely.
What I did not steal
must I now restore?
5 O God, you know my folly;
the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.
"We read the Bible and the Church interprets it for us through the catechists."
DeleteWhat type of training does one go through and how long does it take to be a catechist in the Way?
Rohr is following an anticlerical, liberal strategy in attacking the church. He collaborates with the local liberal media and liberal lawmakers. He is linked to SNAP, an openly anti-Catholic entity, takes advice and instruction from them. He single-handed created the sexual scandal acting on a script from SNAP. He praises SNAP at his blog, publishes SNAP's propaganda and takes more than moral support from them. Don't you see a well developed cuckoo in the Catholic nest?
ReplyDeleteI personally cannot respect the liberal media at all. They preach in everything the diametrical opposite of what the Church is teaching! Liberal media promotes that
Delete-- the Bible is not the Word of God;
-- the Pope is not a true authority;
-- what the Pope is saying should be mocked and ignored;
-- whoever is appointed by the Pope has not authority;
-- bishops are oppressors;
-- all bishops do is covering sexual charges;
-- a priest is not a spiritual leader;
-- a priest is an abuser;
-- priests should have wives and kids;
-- women should be ordained as priests;
-- women should have abortion;
-- there is no need for many kids in a family;
-- actually there is no need for kids at all in a family;
-- family is relative to sexes;
-- gay family is okay;
-- any two persons, independent of biological sex, can form a family;
-- transgenderism is good;
-- the Catholic Church is wrong.
This is all part of what the liberal media promotes. That is why I do not like the liberal media at all. Their propaganda, exemplified also at Junglewatch, is making me nauseated. For Catholics to collaborate with the liberal media is treason, a very cowardly and despicable act of grave indecency!
One correction, at least I think. Tim's energy came up not with everything with Msgr James, but with Fr Paul. At least that is what Tim has said in JW. Either way, I understand your point.
ReplyDeleteFor Tim, the removal of either priest (or both) in inseparably linked to grave concerns over heresy. The Archbishop walks in the Way and is obedient to his catechist. But the Archbishop is the ultimate authority on Guam, as every bishop is in his own diocese. Who then is really in control? The assumption is Fr Pius. So from Tim's point of view, the Archbishop abdicated his responsibility for non-Neo Catholics on Guam and has in reality become a figurehead at best of Neo masters. IF the seminary property were given over to NCW authority and IF Fr Paul was removed from St Barbara because he was an obstacle to NCW there and IF Msgr James was scapegoated to allow for a NCW-friendly leadership in Agana (again, all hypotheticals), then that would be a huge abuse of power that flows directly from the bad theology and practice of the NCW. That is the position of the other side.
Again, I'm not debating the merits of the case, only what the motivations are. Not defending or attacking. To be sure, harsh words have been used all over the place. But this is just food for thought as to why all this has played out.
The reality is that now that the abuse allegations are in play, in a way all of this is pushed to the side. But I'm staying out of that and letting Rome do its thing.
Thank you 10:53 PM. It helps clear some things up as to how this has played out.
Delete"Who then is really in control? The assumption is Fr Pius."
DeleteWhose assumption is that? Please, elaborate! Is Fr. Pius acting as archbishop? How is he "in control"? What is he doing controlling anything? How, why, in what? Please, do not slime around, be specific! Answer the questions!
"bad theology and practice of the NCW."
You are badly mistaken, my friend. There is no such thing as "NCW theology". Please, prove that we are not in line with the catechism of the Catholic Church! If you cannot prove it, then why do you spread false information? The fact is that we in the NCW learn the teaching and catechism of the Catholic Church in a community setting.
If you are unable to come up with evidence about what you say, then we have to conclude that you only come here to repeat jungle propaganda. In fact you spread the same lies about the NCW in a deceptive language as they do in a vulgar and obscene language.
You are incorrect, dear anon. Rohr praised the Neocatechumenal Way, especially its membership, at the start of Junglewatch. He expressed his joy of possible collaboration in the future. It was at the time of the transfer of Fr. Paul from the St. Barbara parish.
DeleteNow, he claims he is so angry about Fr. Paul's transfer and Fr. James' reassignment that he had to create a whole load of sexual abuse stories and charges to bring down the whole archdiocese in flames. He blames the Catholic communities for some reason, but we cannot see the connection. Can you?
Anon 2:42--
DeleteRead 10:53 carefully...not saying what he believes, just stating his thoughts on what the other side's motivations are. If you followed this person's posts from the beginning, he said he was just hoping to share what he believes are Tim's point of view. (based on his following both sides.)
10:53 here. I'll say it again: I am not saying Fr Pius is in some de facto control nor that NCW has bad theology. I'm saying Tim believes that down to his core. That's my whole point--Tim's motivation. And once again, you aren't reading what I'm saying, just reacting to what you think is an attack and persecution. It's amazing to me how readers here and at the Jungle keep doing this same thing again and again and again.
DeleteAnd for the record, yes, Tim was initially supportive. But HE has made it clear that once all these instructions came down about approval (or non-approval) of the liturgical and non-liturgical practices of the Way, that's when he changed his mind (again, his opinion and therefore his motivation). That's why he goes on over and over again about "Where's the Vatican document that gives approval to your liturgy?" No one, not the Archbishop or anyone else, has shown him a specific instruction, just a statement from various officials saying it's ok. For him, that's not a satisfier.
It's like how he went to the Latin Rite mass for years and took heat for it because no one had "approved" it (it needed the bishop's approval, that's all). But once Tim had the Motu Proprio from Pope Benedict, then he had an instruction and that's that. So he's looking for something like that for the NCW.
As usual, I'll bow out of the discussion since most of the time I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
Dear anon at 8:04, no my friend, I exactly understand you. I actually look through you and your intention. Only fools would think you are impartial when you repeat the same garbage that were fed into your mind by Rohr at the jungle. Rotfl!
DeleteYour "I am not saying..." and "I only tell you what they think..." kind of fake sentences are the proof that you look down on us, taking us as fools. No my friend, we are no fools! The fools are not here, but at the other blog. Feel free to go back there. Lol.
"I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall."
DeleteThen try to talk to us and not vomit on us. Very simple, my friend...
Vomit? I've been nothing but courteous and respectful, and I have tried to raise the level of discourse to something above the playground level. So much for peace and unity.
DeleteWow, Diana. Quite a posse.
Dear Anonymous at 8:10 am,
DeleteI publish your comment as a post in the hopes of having a decent dialogue. I agree that you have been courteous and respectful. But as you can see, it takes time to establish unity and peace. We cannot accomplish it at a fast rate. It takes time to even establish trusting the other without thinking there may be a motive behind it.
I have received much more hate comments and death threats, which I have not published on this blog at all. As much as I remind people to keep their language G-rated, humans will always be humans. We are all weak, and many times we simply need to forgive and move on.
Tim has more gripe about the removal of Father Paul and Monsignor James than he does the so-called liturgical abuse of the Way. He either has a motive in inventing stories that Father Pius is in charge or he is delusional. Archbishop Apuron had always been in control. That is a fact.
Dear anon at 8:10, then please try not to blame us for everything. You will be surprised how easy it is to stop sliming around the NCW.
DeleteSliming is defined as covering with a soft, moist, slippery and sometimes sticky matter.
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/sliming
I like the way this person in Anonymous @ 10:53 thinks! Just laying it out to help people see what may be the thinking on 'the other side'. Indeed food for thought.
ReplyDeleteWe see absolutely clearly the "other side's" thinking. They want to
Delete1. chase away Archbishop Hon,
2. destroy Archbishop Apuron,
3. close and sell the Seminary and
4. deport our NCW communities from the island.
They said this very clearly at Junglewatch, CCOG meetings and LFM demonstrations, there is no need of any more explanation. Thank you.
Um, I'm pretty sure deportation wasn't on the agenda. Nor could they outlaw the NCW if they wanted to since NCW isn't a lay organization that can be banned in that way. As for selling the seminary, I keep hearing people say that's selling it is what Tim wants, but I haven't heard him say it or seen it written. If he has said so, then I'm the first to agree. Still, if the property is for a seminary (since that's why it was donated) and it's not used for that, then the property ceases to belong to the Archdiocese and can legally, at least canonically, be taken back.
DeleteI'm pretty sure I've oversimplified here on those two. As for Hon, you're right--they have no respect. For the Archbishop, yes, it's escalated to the point of demanding his laicization. Right or wrong, that is where we are at.
I'm glad you don't need any more explanations. Too bad a tidy little list is even more simplistic. And people wonder why Tim always seems 3 steps ahead...
Dear Anonymous at 11:07 pm,
DeleteTim Rohr did say that he saw nothing wrong with selling the seminary. For three years, his frustration has only grown. Monsignor James and Father Paul has not been reinstated. The seminary has not shut down, and the NCW still exists.
"Tim always seems 3 steps ahead..."
DeleteOh really? Perhaps in muckraking, yes. Lmao.
"Nor could they outlaw the NCW."
DeleteThis would not prevent them from trying. Jungle has a contempt for the constitution and people's constitutional rights. Haven't noticed yet, my friend? Lol.
"I'm pretty sure deportation wasn't on the agenda."
Really? Then read what Tommy Tanaka vomits about NCW all the time. They sweat blood in their barren effort to link sexual allegations to the NCW. We exactly know why.
As I said above, you can sling that LMAO all you want. Do any of us really want Tim's plan to come about? If not, then stop underestimating the man and reducing what he's doing to some Donald Trump-ism.
DeleteAs for deportation, you can't deport an American citizen. Even illegal aliens know that much.
Wow, dramatic much? What are you, in middle school?
You see, anon 8:05, you try to make me look ridiculous while it was THEM who used the word "deport" in context of the NCW. The barking of rabid dogs are like benevolent baby songs when compared to the calumnious language of Tommy Tanaka and Gerry Taitano of CCOG at Junglewatch. Rotfl.
DeleteIt is a sign of cowardice that Rohr allows, in fact produces and orchestrates, more and more insulting anonymous comments against Archbishop Hon. It is nauseating to see how far they go. LFM is just a satellite organization in subjecting themselves to the service of the jungle.
ReplyDeleteCowardice? No, he's pretty matter of fact about his contempt, and he's not doing it anonymously. So he's not a coward. But He is rude, disrespectful, somewhat foulmouthed, and definitely opinionated. I'm with you there.
DeleteI am talking about the anonymous comments published by Rohr directly insulting Archbishop Hon. I see more and more of it. It IS cowardice!
DeleteAs for anonymity, without it most of us wouldn't post at all. Neither of us can fault them for that.
DeleteTimothy Guile, please consider Vatican policy that prohibits Archbishop Hon from interfering with the sexual abuse investigation that is done in Rome. Archbishop Hon cannot override the authority of the office of the Supreme Pontiff and of Pope Francis. That is the reason Archbishop Hon has to deal with everything ELSE, except the sexual abuse allegations.
ReplyDeleteArchbishop Hon has an equally challenging job in bringing peace among the Catholic faithful of good will. You need good will to achieve anything. It is too bad that those without a good will work dictate to others, work hard to prevent peace and perpetuate their "holy war" forever.
Does Vatican policy prohibit Archbishop Hon from acknowledging the presence of the accusers
Deleteand from listening to them? I hope not. Archbishop Hon does not need to make a pronouncement as to the authenticity of the accusations, rather only to listen to their story and administer some pastoral care. I trust when we make a man a cleric we have not gutted the heart out of a him.
Timothy, you still don't get it. That would be interference at the local level, therefore not authorized. Everything associated with the accusations is taken directly by Rome.
DeleteYou are right, Anonymous: I don't get it. I prefer humanity and pastoral care over legalisms, the Samaritan over the Levite.
DeleteActually, that's not interference; it's mercy. I think that's Timothy's point. If what you say is true, then he's not an administrator at all, only a proxy for Abp Apuron, rather like a VP. If that's the case, then you make Tim Rohr's point for him by demonstrating that Hon isn't here to actually DO anything at all. Timothy Guile's request from Hon assumes that Hon is actually an archbishop (which he is) who as the administrator of an archdiocese (which he is) should at least be acting like a pastor.
DeleteHere follows an example from my own experience. Once an older student came to my office to speak to me about her coursework. In the run of the conversation, she said her husband had been a teacher. I said, well, maybe he could help her. Then she told me he had passed away due to chemical poisoning when an experiment went wrong during a lab. (He was a high school chemistry teacher.) As she told the story about how her husband died, she broke down in front of me. Professorial decorum says: don't touch a student. I ignored the rule and reached out for her hand to comfort her. She appreciated the comfort. Not having read the Vatican policy referred to by Anonymous at July 10, 3:42, I don't even know if there is a rule preventing ANY kind of contact between Archbishop Hon and Archbishop Apron's accusers. If there is such a rule, I cannot imagine Pope Francis having seen it and approved of it.
DeleteDear Timothy Guile,
DeleteYou have no reason to doubt your student. Unfortunately, there are lingering doubts about the sexual allegations of the alleged victims. Do you think that showing comfort to the alleged victims will pacify them and the jungle? They not only want Archbishop Hon to show comfort to them, but they also want him to call for other victims to come forward. It is not going to end with a show of comfort.
"Actually, that's not interference; it's mercy."
DeleteAs the charges were raised to Rome by the accusers, the only place that mercy may come from is Rome. That is what they wanted.
"If there is such a rule, I cannot imagine Pope Francis having seen it and approved of it."
DeleteDear Timothy, the Pope is in charge 100% in the investigation of any bishop charged with sexual abuse. That is why we trust Pope Francis and his appointed representative on Guam.
If Apuron hadn't threatened to sue and instead acted like a pastor in the first place, like Cardinal Pell in Australia, we might not have even heard about any of this. If Hon hadn't kept the status quo and surrounded himself with the same people in the chancery who threatened canonical action against anyone who spoke up, no, we probably wouldn't be here.
DeleteWe do trust Pope Francis, but since he's not infallible except in matters of faith and morals, he's perfectly able to choose a man not up to the task.
The Umatuna published a subtle message from Archbishop Hon:
ReplyDelete"Modern societies have sharpened the tools of the law and people may be led to the belief that wrongdoings can be solved simply by lawsuits or the passage of certain Bills."
This message is setting the Catholic view in the matter: the current situation won't be resolved by law and certain bills. Those who push for certain new bills in the Guam legislation to punish their political adversaries inside the church, as Rohr tries to punish Archbishop Apuron, do not work on resolution. They work on escalation. Vatican and the Curia cannot agree with this approach.
Pope Francis cannot side with people or groups whose declared goal is destruction and not reconciliation.