See, this is the problem in having dialogue with someone who has had their sense systematically dissolved by the Neocatechumenal Way. Follow this closely please.
Why are you bringing the NCW into this discussion. This is a dialogue we are having about the Jewish and Christian faith, so please stick to the topic of discussion.
"Jesus cannot be both God in flesh (second person of the Trinity) and also not God in flesh"
This does not mean that Jesus can't be both human and divine, Diana. It is a logical formulation. That is to say, if Jesus is truly God in the flesh, then he cannot be not-God-in-the flesh.
When you say "not God in the flesh" that could also imply that He is "not human." A human is also "not God in the flesh." The Jewish people is half correct. They do believe that Jesus is human. He is indeed a man; therefore, you cannot say that they are totally wrong. I never said that Jesus is not God nor did I ever say that He is not man. I said that Jesus has two natures - a human and divine nature.
It is the same as saying A cannot be not-A. Because it IS A. Do you understand?
As a Christian, I agree that Jesus is both God and man. I also understand that the Jews believe that Jesus is a man, but not God. The question is do you understand that the Jews believe in Jesus' human nature, but not in His divine nature? Do you understand that a Christian CAN believe that Jesus is God and that the God of Abraham is the one true God simply because the Christian knows that there are three persons in one God?
You say that "He is BOTH truly man in the flesh and truly God, the divine incarnated in the flesh". Yes, exactly. And if someone were to say He is not God in the flesh, they would be wrong, yes?
I agree that a person who says that Jesus is not God in the flesh is wrong. But it is also NOT wrong when the Jewish people say that Jesus is a man. They are only wrong when they say that He is not God.
So, the Jews say Jesus is not God in the flesh. They are wrong. If they are wrong, then by saying we share their faith, we are saying we also are wrong. I reject that.
And you are wrong for saying that they place their faith on a different god. The God they believe in is God the Father (the first person in the Trinity). This is the same God whom Jesus prayed to. If we believe in a Trinitarian God, then we cannot reject the God of Abraham by calling Him a different god for there is only one God. This one God does not go by the name Jesus ONLY. He is also God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The question really is – is it possible to worship God by rejecting Jesus? I think the answer is no.
Yet, you think you can worship God by rejecting God the Father (the first person in the Trinity). Jesus said that the way to the Father is through Him.....that is true. But that is not all He said. He also said, "The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks" (See John 4:23). In this biblical passage, Jesus is clearly speaking of His Father (the first person in the Trinity).
Therefore, whether one worships God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, or the Holy Spirit...they are still worshiping the SAME one true God. And if Christians like you cannot recognize that the Jews worship God the Father, then you are no better than the Jews who cannot recognize Jesus Christ, who is the Lord and Messiah.
Here’s another thought. You will surely agree that from time to time in the Old Testament, some Jews worshipped Baal, or Moloch or others. Were they not Jews at that time? Or were they worshipping the same God as we do by worshipping Baal or those others?
You are correct that SOME Jews went astray and worshipped other gods. But that is not true for ALL Jews. Do you honestly think that it was Baal or Moloch who gave Moses the Ten Commandments? Who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Was it not God the Father or did you think these Jews were speaking to a different god?
There is a massive difference in recognising the special election of the Jewish people in ancient times, of recognising the promises made to them, and even acknowledging that Christians share the spiritual heritage of the Jewish people – with saying that that means we worship the same God and share the same faith. Anon goes even further and says that what the Jewish rabbis teach is identical to the magisterium of the Church. These things are too far. For a Catholic, it is heresy to say this.
Pope Francis, Pope John Paul II, and even Pope Benedict XVI all prayed in the synagogues with the Jews because they believe that Jews and Christians worship and believe in the same God....the God of Abraham. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ; therefore, we listen to what the Pope says. According to Pope Benedict XVI (the bold is mine):
9. Christians and Jews share to a great extent a common spiritual patrimony, they pray to the same Lord, they have the same roots, and yet they often remain unknown to each other
As you can see, Pope Benedict XVI said that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. How is it that you forget that Jesus was a Jew? How is it that you ignore the Popes' encyclicals? How is it that you are not in communion with the Pope? So, where is your evidence showing that the Catholic Church or the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) teaches that the Jews and Christians do not worship the same God????
I am convinced that, if this is truly what the NCW teach and believe, then we have our proof that the NCW is truly not Catholic.
Now, this is where your prejudice is showing. In my comments and posts, I have always said that Jesus is God, that I believe in the Holy Trinity, and that Jesus has a human and divine nature. I have shown you the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI stating that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. And based on these beliefs, which are taught by the Catholic Church, you have labeled the NCW as "not Catholic?" The one who follows the Pope and is in communion with the Pope is Catholic. I have shown you written evidence that Pope Benedict (the Vicar of Christ) said that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. Where is YOUR evidence saying otherwise? So, who is not Catholic now???
The fact that the NCW recognized that Jews worship God the Father shows that we are truly Catholic Christians. You, on the other hand, are the same as the Jews because you cannot recognize God the Father just as the Jews do not recognize Jesus Christ as their Lord and Messiah.
The only difference between you and the Jewish people is that you rejected God the Father by calling him another god. The Jewish people, on the other hand, recognize that Jews and Christians worship the same God...the God of Abraham. The Jews know that Catholics worship the same God as they do, which is why they are able to pray with us. They also did not reject Jesus. They only rejected His divinity, but not His humanity. So, they are half correct in recognizing Jesus' humanity while you are totally wrong for not even recognizing the God of Abraham. You are not even half correct.
|Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio (now Pope Francis), prayed in a Jewish synagogue|