See, this is the problem in having dialogue with someone who has had their sense systematically dissolved by the Neocatechumenal Way. Follow this closely please.
Why are you bringing the NCW into this discussion. This is a dialogue we are having about the Jewish and Christian faith, so please stick to the topic of discussion.
"Jesus cannot be both God in flesh (second person of the Trinity) and also not God in flesh"
This does not mean that Jesus can't be both human and divine, Diana. It is a logical formulation. That is to say, if Jesus is truly God in the flesh, then he cannot be not-God-in-the flesh.
When you say "not God in the flesh" that could also imply that He is "not human." A human is also "not God in the flesh." The Jewish people is half correct. They do believe that Jesus is human. He is indeed a man; therefore, you cannot say that they are totally wrong. I never said that Jesus is not God nor did I ever say that He is not man. I said that Jesus has two natures - a human and divine nature.
It is the same as saying A cannot be not-A. Because it IS A. Do you understand?
As a Christian, I agree that Jesus is both God and man. I also understand that the Jews believe that Jesus is a man, but not God. The question is do you understand that the Jews believe in Jesus' human nature, but not in His divine nature? Do you understand that a Christian CAN believe that Jesus is God and that the God of Abraham is the one true God simply because the Christian knows that there are three persons in one God?
You say that "He is BOTH truly man in the flesh and truly God, the divine incarnated in the flesh". Yes, exactly. And if someone were to say He is not God in the flesh, they would be wrong, yes?
I agree that a person who says that Jesus is not God in the flesh is wrong. But it is also NOT wrong when the Jewish people say that Jesus is a man. They are only wrong when they say that He is not God.
So, the Jews say Jesus is not God in the flesh. They are wrong. If they are wrong, then by saying we share their faith, we are saying we also are wrong. I reject that.
And you are wrong for saying that they place their faith on a different god. The God they believe in is God the Father (the first person in the Trinity). This is the same God whom Jesus prayed to. If we believe in a Trinitarian God, then we cannot reject the God of Abraham by calling Him a different god for there is only one God. This one God does not go by the name Jesus ONLY. He is also God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The question really is – is it possible to worship God by rejecting Jesus? I think the answer is no.
Yet, you think you can worship God by rejecting God the Father (the first person in the Trinity). Jesus said that the way to the Father is through Him.....that is true. But that is not all He said. He also said, "The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks" (See John 4:23). In this biblical passage, Jesus is clearly speaking of His Father (the first person in the Trinity).
Therefore, whether one worships God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, or the Holy Spirit...they are still worshiping the SAME one true God. And if Christians like you cannot recognize that the Jews worship God the Father, then you are no better than the Jews who cannot recognize Jesus Christ, who is the Lord and Messiah.
Here’s another thought. You will surely agree that from time to time in the Old Testament, some Jews worshipped Baal, or Moloch or others. Were they not Jews at that time? Or were they worshipping the same God as we do by worshipping Baal or those others?
You are correct that SOME Jews went astray and worshipped other gods. But that is not true for ALL Jews. Do you honestly think that it was Baal or Moloch who gave Moses the Ten Commandments? Who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Was it not God the Father or did you think these Jews were speaking to a different god?
There is a massive difference in recognising the special election of the Jewish people in ancient times, of recognising the promises made to them, and even acknowledging that Christians share the spiritual heritage of the Jewish people – with saying that that means we worship the same God and share the same faith. Anon goes even further and says that what the Jewish rabbis teach is identical to the magisterium of the Church. These things are too far. For a Catholic, it is heresy to say this.
Pope Francis, Pope John Paul II, and even Pope Benedict XVI all prayed in the synagogues with the Jews because they believe that Jews and Christians worship and believe in the same God....the God of Abraham. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ; therefore, we listen to what the Pope says. According to Pope Benedict XVI (the bold is mine):
9. Christians and Jews share to a great extent a common spiritual patrimony, they pray to the same Lord, they have the same roots, and yet they often remain unknown to each other
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2010/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100117_sinagoga.html
As you can see, Pope Benedict XVI said that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. How is it that you forget that Jesus was a Jew? How is it that you ignore the Popes' encyclicals? How is it that you are not in communion with the Pope? So, where is your evidence showing that the Catholic Church or the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) teaches that the Jews and Christians do not worship the same God????
I am convinced that, if this is truly what the NCW teach and believe, then we have our proof that the NCW is truly not Catholic.
Now, this is where your prejudice is showing. In my comments and posts, I have always said that Jesus is God, that I believe in the Holy Trinity, and that Jesus has a human and divine nature. I have shown you the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI stating that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. And based on these beliefs, which are taught by the Catholic Church, you have labeled the NCW as "not Catholic?" The one who follows the Pope and is in communion with the Pope is Catholic. I have shown you written evidence that Pope Benedict (the Vicar of Christ) said that Jews and Christians pray to the SAME God. Where is YOUR evidence saying otherwise? So, who is not Catholic now???
The fact that the NCW recognized that Jews worship God the Father shows that we are truly Catholic Christians. You, on the other hand, are the same as the Jews because you cannot recognize God the Father just as the Jews do not recognize Jesus Christ as their Lord and Messiah.
The only difference between you and the Jewish people is that you rejected God the Father by calling him another god. The Jewish people, on the other hand, recognize that Jews and Christians worship the same God...the God of Abraham. The Jews know that Catholics worship the same God as they do, which is why they are able to pray with us. They also did not reject Jesus. They only rejected His divinity, but not His humanity. So, they are half correct in recognizing Jesus' humanity while you are totally wrong for not even recognizing the God of Abraham. You are not even half correct.
 |
| Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio (now Pope Francis), prayed in a Jewish synagogue |
I bring up the NCW because you are NCW and you say absurd and heretical things, and other NCW commenters on this blog say absurd and heretical things - like "We should also be familiar with Jewish rabbis' teaching about God, because it is exactly the same that the magisterium of faith teaches to all Catholics!"
ReplyDeleteAnd: “We have the …. same faith in God”; and
“I challenge you, if you are such an expert of faith, that you just show me one single thing that is different in the teaching of the Jewish rabbis from what the magisterium of faith is teaching for all Catholics. I warn you, you won't find anything.”
And this:
“So, when you say that the Jews believe in something different, you are essentially denying God the Father and also denying the Holy Trinity”. (if the Jews did not “believe in something different”, they would be Christians, surely!)
Also:
“If you want to be Christ, if you want to save people, you have to take off the mantle of disobedience, put on the shirt of obedience and submit yourself completely to the will of Yahweh. It was Jesus' way to become Christ”
"When you say "not God in the flesh" that could also imply that He is "not human." A human is also "not God in the flesh." The Jewish people is half correct."
So, now to your points.
I actually wrote “not-God-in-the-flesh”. I'll try to clarify this for you. If I point to a banana and say "this is a banana", and you accept that it is a true statement, it is then impossible for another true statement to be "this is not a banana", because these two statements are contradictory.
If I say that it is true that Jesus is "God-in-the-flesh", it cannot be true to say "Jesus is not-God-in-the-flesh", even if we all agree that Jesus is both human and divine, because the statements are contradictory.
Moving on - I accept that the Jews are willing to believe that Jesus is a man. That's not enough though, is it?
Imagine King Solomon when presented with two women each claiming that the baby belonged to them, says "well, it is A baby", and leaves it at that. He wouldn't be very wise, would he? Because it is crucial in that case to determine WHOSE baby it is, not merely that it IS a baby.
You are doing much the same with this proposition. So what if the Jews think Jesus was a man? It's still incomplete, and leads to wrong decisions.
"But it is also NOT wrong when the Jewish people say that Jesus is a man. They are only wrong when they say that He is not God. "
Oh, well they're just a little bit wrong then, and everything’s fine.
"Yet, you think you can worship God by rejecting God the Father (the first person in the Trinity). "
Show me where I ever rejected God the Father. You are delusional. Look, Jesus is the Word of God, yes? How can you be obedient to someone if you ignore (or don't recognise) their word?
"The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks""
Yes, and who is "the truth"? Let me give you a hint. His initials are JC.
cont...
Dear Anonymous at 11:51 am,
DeleteI already showed you the encyclical letter of Pope Benedict XVI saying that the Jews and Christians pray to the same God. If you do not believe the Pope; then it is you who is teaching heresy.
Dear Anonymous October 21, 2015 at 11:51 AM, I am amazed by your blatant disregard of the challenges you get. Have you ever read the Bible as a whole thing? Have you ever read the Catechism without cherry picking what you like and ignoring what you don't? You lack of basic knowledge regarding your faith is disheartening, especially your ignorance about the importance of the Jewish fathers and the foundation of Christian faith by the teachings of early Judaism.
DeleteHave you ever read the great Jewish prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel? They comprise a significant portion of the Holy Scriptures. Have you ever heard about the suffering servant of Yahweh who was obedient to the point of death? The suffering servant is prefiguring Christ. If he is not the model of your Christian faith then who is? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who easily quoted the prophets in everyday conversations. He identified himself with the message of the prophets. The message of the prophets is actually part of the Word of almighty God!
If you deny the Jewish roots of your faith, either by ignorance or by rebellion, then one has to seriously doubt that you are a Christian. Why don't you just give some more time for yourself to study the basics, read through the Bible and the catechism before you want to get involved in discussion about your faith? I am sorry, but by omitting the fundamentals, you just cannot get anything right.
"You are correct that SOME Jews went astray and worshipped other gods. But that is not true for ALL Jews. Do you honestly think that it was Baal or Moloch who gave Moses the Ten Commandments? Who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Was it not God the Father or did you think these Jews were speaking to a different god?"
ReplyDeleteOnce again, you miss the point. I asked if these people were Jews at the time they worshipped Baal. The answer is, of course, yes they were. Which shows that merely saying "Jews worship the same God as us" is not sufficient. When you make no distinction between Jews as a culture and Jews as a religious people you fall into this mistake. Anton LeVay, the founder of the Church of Satan, was a Jew, for example.
"How is it that you forget that Jesus was a Jew?"
Did I? Really? Ok, lets be clear. I acknowledge that Jesus was born as Jewish man and observed the Jewish practices. Before that, he was (is, will be) God. At the moment of his death on the cross, the veil of the temple was rent in two. That's something you seem to forget.
"So, where is your evidence showing that the Catholic Church or the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) teaches that the Jews and Christians do not worship the same God????"
Fair enough question. So how about Pope Pius VII for a start (in his encyclical Post tam diuturnas):
"By the fact that the indiscriminate freedom of all forms of worship is proclaimed, truth is confused with error, and the Holy and Immaculate Spouse of Christ is placed on the same level as heretical sects and even as Jewish faithlessness.[24]"
1 John 5:1 "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and whoever loves the father loves the son" (presumably “loves” relates to “worships”?)
1 John 5:10 "10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him, and whoever does not believe is making God a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
And I can produce even better evidence, from Our Lord himself:
"You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sin. For if you do not believe that I am He [the Son of God], you will die in your sin. (John 8:23-24)"
And further: "22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him .” (John 5:22-23)"
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:6)
Its weird, but on your logic, you would have to accuse Jesus of rejecting God the Father, and denying the Trinity!!
And the final word goes to John the Evangelist:
"20 We are well aware also that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know the One who is true. We are in the One who is true as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and this is eternal life. Children, be on your guard against false gods."
PS. Your final paragraph once again confirms you are not really Catholic in understanding. But it is not your fault. You have been deceived by the NCW deception. I pray that God may lift the veil from your eyes.
Dear Anonymous at 11:51 am.
DeleteYou stated: "I asked if these people were Jews at the time they worshipped Baal. The answer is, of course, yes they were."
If a Catholic worships Odin, the Norse god at the time they were Catholic, are they still Catholic? The answer is no. It is the same with the Jews who worship Baal. By worshipping other gods, they have abandoned the true God and can no longer be called "Catholic." he same applies to those who worship Baal. They are no longer "Jews."
You quoted Pope Pius VII, which clearly stated "Jewish FAITHLESSNESS." Do you know what "faithlessness" mean. It is the opposite of "Jewish faithful." Faithlessness means "a lack of faith". Pope Pius VII is saying that the truth will be confused with error if the Church of Christ is placed on the same level as the Jewish LACK OF FAITH.
You can quote the Bible about Jesus the Son of God all you want, but you have yet to explain Jesus' statement about the "true worshippers who will worship His Father." A Catholic does not pick and choose biblical texts that he likes and ignores the rest like the Protestants do. We take everything that Christ says as Truth. That means when Christ said, ""The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks"......that is ALSO the Truth that you chose to ignore simply because it does not fit your erroneous beliefs.
"They are no longer "Jews.""
DeleteOh, be careful Diana. You might have a fight on your hands if you were to suggest that Jews are not Jews if they don't follow your conceptions.
"Church of Christ is placed on the same level as the Jewish LACK OF FAITH"
Lack of faith in what pray tell? Jesus Christ? I think that is what Pope Pius is saying dear Diana.
"but you have yet to explain Jesus' statement about the "true worshippers who will worship His Father.""
Perhaps you didn't read to the end of my first response. I did answer this. Jesus said "in spirit and truth" and he identified himself as "the Truth". So there you have it. Also, we believe the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (at least if you are Catholic), so it goes without saying that you must believe in the Son if you are to worship in the Spirit.
Obedience to Yahweh is the defining feature of Christ. He is holy, but not be exploited as someone equal to to God, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is the Son of God but not El Elyon, who is the Father and Jesus is the Son. Yahweh whose other name is El Elyon is the supreme God who is not to be confused with anything else.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly the teaching of the Jewish fathers and rabbis. They teach the only true faith of God in the highest authority which is the same as the magisterium of faith for all Catholics. Jesus was a beloved rabbi of the Jews, he also taught them in their synagogues to be obedient to Yahweh, the almighty Father. Obedient to death, even death on a cross. That made him Christ our savior forever. Alleluia!
Christ Jesus,
who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.
(Phil 2:6-8)
Dear Anon. You are not Catholic. What you say is not the Catholic Faith. Jesus is equal with the Father, as is seen in the very passage of scripture you quoted:
Delete"[Jesus] did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited"
Here, it is clearly shown that Jesus has "equality with God", just that He does not "exploit" that equality.
I would like to ask you if you believe that this position you espouse derives from or is consistent with the teaching of the NCW?
Who are you anonymous to tell who is Catholic and who is not? I am seriously wondering about your incredible arrogance and aggressiveness. You obviously know nothing about the teaching of rabbi Jesus my savior! You are the one who want to exploit Christ my Lord. Even though he said do not exploit me! Are you Christian?
DeleteLet me repeat, you don't know the most basic things about your faith as taught by the magisterium. What kind of teaching are you espousing here? Is this your own? Then you should go and establish your own church for your own teaching, pal, not fooling around as Catholic.
Do not say you know Jesus. He is the Son of Yahweh, a faithful Jew in his own time, who prayed in the synagogue. He forgave the adulterous woman, a fellow Jew. He had to die because of the arrogant people like you. Pilate, a goyim, sentenced him to death and the Romans crucified. In the way of Golgotha he was surrounded by sympathetic Jews like Veronica and his mother. So what are you talking about, anonymous?
Your arrogance and judgmental spirit is not from the Lord who endured his passion with peaceful heart, but from demons who are the servants of devil. You better face it, only scrutiny, soul searching and ultimate exorcism can save you. Do not give up brother, contact your priest now. Jesus manifested the resurrection for all of us sinners. I'll pray for you. Please, also pray for me.
Dear Anonymous at 1:31 pm,
DeleteI do not think he/she is saying that Jesus is not equal to God. The Son and the Father are one, but many times we forget that Jesus is also human. It is Jesus' humanity that is obedient to the Father. At the cross, it was Jesus' human body that died. His divinity did not die because God cannot die. Jesus' humanity is the same as us except sin. As human, Jesus is able to grow old, grow in knowledge and wisdom and learn, and even die.
Dear Diana, please read this comment again and then tell me if he/she is not saying that Jesus is not equal with the Father:
Delete"He is holy, but not be exploited as someone equal to to God>, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is the Son of God but not El Elyon, who is the Father and Jesus is the Son. Yahweh whose other name is El Elyon is the supreme God who is not to be confused with anything else. "
Dear Anonymous at 12:46 am,
DeleteI am reading his/her entire comment and not part of it. The quote from Philippians is speaking about the mystery of the Incarnation. Jesus is true man and true God. As true man, it can be said that the Father is greater than the Son. In the Holy Bible, Christ said "The Father is greater than I" (See John 14:28). When Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I", He was also referring to the relationship He has with His Father and not to the shared nature He has with Him. The following Catholic weblink explains it better:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/jesus-is-god
Dear Diana, while it may seem charitable to read anon's comments in this way, if you read the series of comments he/she has written, it is clear that he/she holds a view of the Trinity which is not orthodox. Really, your responsibility is to correct this anon, and not try to defend their strange views.
DeleteOf course, Jesus being the Son, cannot be the Father, but the doctrine of the Trinity is that Jesus is co-equal with the Father in the Godhead. By all means anon, or you, are welcome to point out the obvious, but only if at the same time the Trinity is affirmed in an orthodox way. Anon's comments are dangerously close to Arianism, and your defense of them is suspicious.
Diana, would you say that the comments of anon are consistent with the teaching of the NCW?
Dear Anonymous at 11:01 am,
DeleteI think one first needs to understand exactly what Anonymous was trying to say rather than making assumptions. You do that by reading the entire comment rather than half of it. If you only read half of it, then you can easily take it out of context. You could also ask him/her for clarification. The fact that he/she quoted from the Letter to the Philppians is an indication that he/she was referring to the mystery of the Incarnation. If Anonymous is incorrect in his assumption, then he/she should be corrected.
With that said, even you admit that Jesus being the Son cannot be the Father. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity does say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal because Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God. On the other hand, they are also distinct from one another.
I say that the comments of Anonymous are consistent with the Catholic Church. According to Catholic Answers: "....the Father can be said to be greater than the Son relationally, while they are absolutely equal with regard to their essence as God." I provided the weblink to Catholic Answers in my previous comment. Did you read it?
I have said that we believe that there are three persons in ONE God. These three persons (although one) are also distinct from one another. The first person is the Father. He is NOT the Son. Jesus is the Son of God and the second person of the Trinity. ONLY Jesus has two natures. Both the Father and the Holy Spirit do not have a human nature. The third person is the Holy Spirit. All three are one God but also distinct from each other. Christians are the only ones who know the nature of God. The Jews worship and pray to the same God as the Christians, but they do not know His nature the way we do. Nevertheless, their ignorance of God's nature does not change who God really is. As Pope Benedict XVI said, Christians and Jews pray to the same God.
ReplyDeleteAs do Muslims.
DeleteJesus is a mediator between Yahweh and his people, Israel:
DeleteBut Jesus has now obtained a more excellent ministry, and to that degree he is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted through better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)
Jesus got a ministry from the Father to mediate between him and his wayward people, who we are Israel. He is the only God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the forefathers of faith of Israel. Shema Israel!
There is none except El Elyon, the most high who gave us better promises than earlier. It is the meaning of the new covenant in a nutshell. In order to enact his better promises, he had to send a Son who mediates these promises between himself who is almighty God and his beloved people. The task of the new ministry for Jesus is to enact this new covenant for all believers. But the new covenant is with the same people, the people of God. That is who we are, Israel.
You problem, brother, is that you cannot imagine yourself as being part of Israel of our God, the almighty Father, Yahweh Sabaoth.
Dear Anon, you are certainly free with the assertions about what my "problem" might be, and this sort of pseudo-mystical language that says nothing. How about actually answering some of the questions that have been raised, or at least qualifying exactly where you get this stuff from?
DeleteDear anonymous, you need redemption because of your rebellion against God and his people. Look for the sources of redemption and you'll find the Holy One of Israel. Your redemption is surely in the recognition of the people of God and in supporting the great divine plan of reestablishing the ancestral homeland.
DeleteBecause of your disdain for the chosen people and aversion against the rabbis, the authentic teachers of faith, you have to make amends. Please, acknowledge God who knows your heart, and do not make him angry even more. Because of our brothers and friends around the world, Jerusalem, the great, will be built again! Stand by the beauty of Jerusalem, the city of my Lord, and he will forgive you.
Support Eretz Israel, the ancestral homeland of all believers of Yahweh our Father in heaven. You see here your ticket to heaven, so do not squander it. Pray to Jesus, the Son of the most high, our minister in mediation, that he enlightens your heart and mind.
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/future
Thankyou for your judgement of me. I will place myself before the mercy of God and my savior Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the hope of purification, conversion and a happy death.
DeleteI offer this for your consideration:
http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html#ratisbonne
Dear Anonymous at 9:13 am,
DeleteI support a Palestinian State for the Palestinians with Israel right beside her. I do not agree with Hamas who believe that the Jews should be pushed into the sea, but I also do not agree with the extremists in Israel who are against a Palestinian country.
Dear Diana, words have different meaning in the old and new covenants. The teaching is the same but we know that everything is a little elevated, raised higher in spirituality by the godly nature of Jesus Christ. Just as you said earlier.
DeleteWhen we say God, we think of the trinity God. The rabbis do not include Jesus, but we know He is there. When we say Israel, we think of the church, the community of believers. The rabbis do not include Christians, but we know we are there. When we say Jerusalem, we think of the heavenly city of God, our home and rest. The rabbis think of the city of God as a geographical location, but we know it is much bigger.
So while the teaching of the rabbis is the same that we learn from the magisterium of faith, we add our understanding about Jesus as Son of God, our own beloved rabbi, minister and mediator. This is what anonymous misses because he is biased against the people of God. We know more about the divine nature of our Lord and this knowledge of the new covenant makes sense in the context provided by the old covenant, that is the teaching of the rabbis! Old and new go hand in hand together.
Who is the people of God? We all are part of it, as long as we believe in Yahweh, our Father in heaven. So yes, we may even respond to political challenges as the Palestinian State for the Palestinians. Eretz Israel is the ancestral homeland of ALL believers in God, as I said earlier. Even though the rabbis think of a geographical location, we know that it includes much more, it includes all the people of God who we are. Included are the Palestinians too as long as they believe in the same God.
Pope Benedict XVI has asked Catholics not to use YHWH as it is offensive to the Jews.
ReplyDeleteDear All,
ReplyDeleteThe least problematic of the questionable statements on this OP and the previous one, is that Jews (read religious Jews) and Christians "worship the same God". The claim that we have the same "faith in God" is entirely wrong, as is the claim about Jesus being less than God the Father, and that the teaching of the Jewish rabbis is identical to that of the Church's magisterium.
With regard to the first statement, even if it can be admitted that followers of Judaism and of Christianity worship the same God, merely agreeing on the object of worship does not mean that Jewish worship is acceptable or pleasing to God. Only through Jesus Christ will their worship be acceptable.
Please refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia for a discussion on Judaism, including the following:
"While Christianity thus asserted itself as the new Kingdom of God, the Jewish theocracy, guided by leaders unable "to know the signs of the times", was hastening to its total destruction. The Romans came, and in A.D. 70 put an end forever to the Jewish Temple, priesthood, sacrifices, and nation, whereby it should have become clear to the Jews that their national worship was rejected of God. In point of fact, Judaism, shorn of these its essential features, soon
"assumed an entirely new aspect. All the parties and sects of a former generation vanished; Pharisees and Sadducees ceased to quarrel with each other; the Temple was supplanted by the synagogue, sacrifices by the prayer, the priest by any one who was able to read, teach, and interpret both the written and the oral law. The Sanhedrin lost its juridical qualification, and became a consistory to advise people in regard to the religious duties. Judaism became a science, a philosophy, and ceased to be a political institution" (Schindler, "Dissolving Views in the History of Judaism").
This new system, treated at first as simply provisional because of the surviving hope of restoring the Jewish commonwealth, had soon to be accepted as definitive through the crushing of Bar-Cochba's revolt by Hadrian. Then it was that Rabbinical or Talmudical Judaism fully asserted its authority over the two great groups of Jewish families east and west of the Euphrates respectively. For several centuries, under either the "Patriarchs of the West" or the "Princes of the Captivity", the Mishna "Oral Teaching" completed by Rabbi Juda I, committed ultimately to writing in the form of the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, and expounded by generations of teachers in the schools of Palestine and Babylonia, held undisputed sway over the minds and consciences of the Jews.
In fact, this long acceptation of the Talmud by the Jewish race, before its centre was shifted from the East to the West, so impressed this Second Law (Mishna) upon the hearts of the Jews that down to the present day Judaism has remained essentially Talmudical both in its theory and in its practice. It is indeed true that as early as the eighth century of our era the authority of the Talmud was denied in favour of Biblical supremacy by the sect of the Karaites, and that it has oftentimes since been questioned by other Jewish sects such as Judghanits, Kabbalist, Sabbatians, Chassidim (old and new), Frankist, etc. Nevertheless, these sects have all but disappeared and the supremacy of the Talmud is generally recognized."
Pope Benedict already said that Christians and Jews pray to the same God. Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis also prayed together with the Jews in the synagogues because the Church teaches that Christians and Jews worship the same God.
ReplyDeleteRome has spoken.
Rome has said the diplomatic thing "We pray to the same Lord" means what?
DeleteLets say two people claim to "serve the same King". One by growing vegetables to put on the King's table. The other murders people who he considers the Kings enemies. The King himself is pleased with the first servant and what he does; but he is displeased with the what the second servant does.
Both say they serve the same King, but clearly only one serves in a way that is acceptable. The object of service (the King) is the same. But the result is quite different.
So too with the statement that Jews and Christians worship the same God.
Of course, the Popes are not wanting to needlessly upset anyone so they say these things that sound good, but don't really say anything.
Dear Anonymous at 9:40 pm,
DeleteWhen Rome says "Christians and Jews pray to the same Lord," then it means just that. The fact that the Popes have prayed with the Jewish people in their synagogues shows they meant just that. The fact that the Jews do not know God's nature does not change who they pray to. He is still the same God. If you do not believe the Vicar of Christ, would you believe Sacred Scripture?
John 4:21-22 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
There is only one Bible and one Torah. Both have been translated with hundreds of version to suit.
ReplyDeleteYou must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul. This is the greatest and the first commandment.
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your possessions"
Sounds the same to me........SHEMA ISRAEL
Just wanted to say Hello.
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