Tim Rohr's conclusion for this false rumor stems from the fact that we consume the Body of Christ sitting down. In other words, he is saying that we do not believe that bread and wine becomes the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ simply because we consume His Body SITTING down.
This is the same utter nonsense that Fundamentalist Protestants have for calling Catholics "idol-worshippers"......because they see Catholics BOWING to statues. Idolatry is found only in the hearts of men. It is not found in statues, paintings, jobs, wealth, or in other things. God can give wealth to people just as He did with Job. Money is not a sin. It is the "LOVE of money" that is a sin because one is supposed to love only God with their whole heart, mind, and soul. So, it is utter nonsense when Fundamentalist Protestants accused Catholics of being idol-worshippers because they see them BOWING to statues. Do these Fundamentalists say that those who bow to the audience after a performance are worshipping the audience? They understood perfectly that bowing to an audience after a grand performance does not mean that the performers were worshipping the audience. The same can be said of Catholics bowing to a statue of Mary. We do not worship Mary, and God who sees the hearts of all men is the only one capable of knowing this.
Therefore, for anyone to say that the NCW do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist as His actual Body and Blood simply because we consume His Body SITTING down is only following the seriously flawed logic of the Fundamentalist Protestants. The truth is...... the NCW believes that after the priest consecrates the bread and wine, it BECOMES the Body and Blood of Christ.
In fact, there are cases in Catholic history where the bread and wine miraculously changes into a human tissue and human blood. Experiments show that the tissue came from the tissue of a human heart, and the Blood was found to be AB human blood. The NCW believes in transubstantiation.
"The NCW believes in transubstantiation"
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the NCW claims to be an itinerary of formation means that it can't believe in anything, Diana. People "believe in things"; not itineraries.
The question is actually - what does the NCW teach about the real presence? And this is answered by what is contained in the catechesis (the secret texts), and by what is signified and practiced in gatherings and liturgies.
Though I'm pleased that you personally believe it Diana.
Dear Anonymous at 7:17 pm,
DeleteI have been going to the Eucharist in the Way for 8 years, and in all that time, I have NOT heard one priest say that the Body and Blood of Christ is only a symbol in the Eucharist. The catechesis, which you call the secret texts were approved by the Holy See. Therefore, there would be nothing in those texts saying that the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist is a symbol. If you think the texts says that, then essentially you are also saying that the Holy See and the entire Catholic Church also thinks it is a symbol.
The Catholic Church clearly teaches Transubstantiation, and so does the NCW. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
CCC 1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
"An itinerary of formation" is a process of becoming a Catholic Christian. To become a Catholic Christian is to believe in Christ and in all the things taught by Him through His Church.
So if I do not go through this formation. I am not considered a Catholic Christian? Is this what you are stating in your last paragraph
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:50 pm,
DeleteHow in the world did you come to that conclusion? Where in my comment did I say that you MUST go through this formation to become a Catholic Christian????
I stated that the "intinerary of formation" is a process of becoming a Catholic Christian. I was referring to the FACT that the NCW is an "itinerary of Christian formation" because that is what it says in the APPROVED statutes.
Through deduction of your statement, the way to become a Catholic Christian is to go throught the itinerary process. Even my fourth grader analyzed this statement and came up with the same conclusion.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:09 pm,
DeleteIt would help if you and your fourth grader would read the entire thread. I was responding to an anonymous poster who stated: "The fact that the NCW claims to be an itinerary of formation means that it can't believe in anything, Diana. People "believe in things"; not itineraries."
If you had read the entire thread from the beginning, then you would have come up with the proper deductions.
Read your last paragraph from your response. Usually the last statement is the conclusion! We read the entire response!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:33 pm.,
DeleteWhy are you only reading the last sentence???? That is the problem with some people. They only look at one sentence instead of the entire comment. Read who I was responding to. It is right there in the very beginning of my comment.
So Diana, if the NCW is an itinerary of formation, why is Archbishop Apuron in it? No one can seem to answer this question.
DeleteDiana, why are the 13 approved volumes of catechetical directory not for public perusal?
DeleteSo if the NCW is an itinerary of formation which is the process of becoming a Catholic Christian, why do they recruit the "already-Catholics"?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:33 pm,
DeleteI will give you the same answer I gave another anonymous poster who asked the same question under another thread in my blog.
All of us (including the priests and Bishops) need to grow in faith. One can grow in faith by joining the Legion of Mary, the Christian Mothers, the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Crusullios, the NCW, and other organizations available to the Catholic faithful. The Catholic Church is rich in a variety of ways to help the faithful grow more in faith. Knowledge of Scripture and the doctrines of the Church is a good thing, but one also needs to put this knowledge into practice so that even the pagans can see that we are truly the sons and daughters of God in word and in deed.
We always pray for the Pope, Bishops, and priests because the Devil attacks them more than the laity. The Devil rejoices more when a priest falls rather than when a laity falls.
Dear Anonymous at 10:56 pm,
DeleteSo that they can grow in faith.
Diana @ 6:55 AM: You claim that the NCW is not a movement but an itinerary, yet now you compare the NCW to the different movements in the Church. I think you're confused.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:40 pm,
DeleteDo you know what a comparison is? When I say "One can grow in faith by joining the Legion of Mary, the Christian Mothers, the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Crusullios, the NCW, and other organizations available to the Catholic faithful".........that is not a comparison.
Here is an example of what a comparison is: "The Christian Mothers consist of both young and middle aged women whereas the Legion of Mary have more members over 65 years old........this is what you call a comparison.
Listing down a bunch of different organizations in the Catholic Church is not a comparison. It is simply a list.
Okay, let me put it this way. You put the NCW in the "same list" as the other movements. If you say the NCW is an itinerary, it shouldn't be on the same list.
DeleteCOMPARISON: The act of suggesting that two or more things are similar or in the same category
DeleteDiana @ 10:33 PM -- So you say the Archbishop joined the NCW because although he has knowledge of Scripture and the doctrines of the Church, he needs to put this knowledge into practice. So this then means that he hasn't been putting his knowledge into practice and needs the NCW to show him how. Ahhhh, I see now. Thanks for pointing this out Diana.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:23 am,
DeleteI put it on the same list because the NCW is PART of the Catholic Church. The only reason you feel it should not be on the same list is because you think the NCW is Protestant.
Dear Anonymous at 12:33 am,
DeleteKnowledge is not going to give you any spiritual growth. In other words, you know that the Bible says that we should forgive and love the enemy. But what good is knowing that if you do not forgive and love the enemy??? When you forgive and love the enemy, then you are growing in faith. Just ask yourself, can you love and forgive the Archbishop, whom you already consider your enemy?
So why isn't loving and forgiving the enemy not being taught to the Archbishop in the NCW catechesis?
DeleteLet me reiterate this again. The teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church believes in Transubstantiation; therefore, every faithful Catholic (whether they are in the Way or not) should believe in what the teaching Magisterium has taught in the Council of Trent about Transubstantiation. Transubstantiation has been clearly defined by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and is even in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (See CCC 1376 and CCC 1413). Therefore, Transubstantiation is part of our faith. The bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteThe NCW believes in Transubstantiation but it is never emphasized in its catechesis specially the weekend Convivence. The catechesis on The Eucharist that starts Saturday morning with the catechesis of the Passover Meal where it is made to parallel the Holy Eucharist with the emphasis on the Eucharist as Thanksgiving, Berakha in Hebrew. All the symbols and meaning of the Jewish Passover will be interpreted in the light of the Eucharist. Jewish Passover as passing from slavery to freedom, while the Eucharist is Jesus passing from death to life.
ReplyDeleteThe afternoon session will zero in on the history of the Eucharist, with philosophical and theological exposition but it will never deal with the issue of Transubstantiation. Equal emphasis will be on the different presences of Jesus in the whole Eucharist.
Is that correct, Diana? i think i can still give that catechesis after a long hiatus from the community.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteThe parish also believes in Transubstantiation, but I do not hear about it in the regular Mass as well. You would not hear the word "Transubstantiation" in the parish homily, so what is your point?
No it is not correct, Isaias. You should know better. In the catechesis we speak about transubstantiation. But I give you the benefit of the doubt. You have been absent now for many years.
DeleteExercise in futility, dear Diana…
ReplyDeleteThe only reason why I sometimes contribute is because I think that my posts can help those with a good intention. Your articles do help, Diana, those who have ears to listen. It is useless to dialogue with the others. I have yet to decide whether these people are outright stupid or simply stubborn.
You probably won't post this but at least it was said; please read the last two sentences of your statement. "The others" who you consider stupid or simply stubborn are those you are called to love. Please be more charitable when replying. You must be leavened, salted and love the unlovable. Peace be with you & with your spirit.
Delete"............The NCW believes in transubstantiation." Had it had not been posted under a pseudonym it would be otherwise very compelling to believe that you do."
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 10:55 pm,
DeleteDo the RMS priests and NCW members need to take a lie detector test to show what we believe in? Only God can see what we truly believe in because He is the only one who can see into our hearts. You cannot because you are not God. This is why it is ridiculous for Tim Rohr and Chuck White to publicly announce what the NCW believes in.
Diana, you told us that a kid who wants to join the NeoCat must be obedient to his father until he becomes 18 years old, when he is considered "officially" adult. Then, at the age of 18 he becomes free to join the NeoCat without regard to his parents' objections. How about countries where the official age of adulthood is not 18, but 21 years? The the kid has to wait until he is 21? Do you see the trap you closed yourself in? Where exactly in the Bible is this regulated that you may start to disobey your parents at age 18 or 21? I am curious, Diana. Could you quote this for me, please? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteDear voice of faith,
DeleteDo not put words in my mouth. When a kid is 18 years old, he is legally an adult. As an adult, he CAN make decisions for himself. If he wishes to join the Way, the Way will welcome him. However, he should also ask his parents for forgiveness because his parents are against his decision for joining the Way. Good parents who love their children will allow their adult children free will.....the choice to make decisions on their own. A parent's role is to instill the values and faith to their children so that when they are old enough to make decisions for themselves, the values and faith they instill in them would help them make the right decisions even after the parents are gone from this earth. The parents cannot live forever to give advice to their adult children. As adults, they need to lean on God rather than their parents.
As for countries that have a different official age of adulthood, the NCW follows the culture of that country. So, if the official age is 21 years old, then the 21 year old can decide for himself if he wants to join the way or not.
Dear Diana, it is strange that you make it dependent on state law if a kid should be obedient to his father or not. Should it not be based on Scripture or Church teaching? The same time you demand blind obedience from other people, especially from deacons and priests towards the Archbishop. Is this not hypocritical?
DeleteI am not particularly surprised that you throw out my other questions. Let me just repeat. Could you please explain these 3 things from our conversation in the last couple of days:
Delete1. What do you mean that Jesus was a Jew and also God? Is Jesus a Jewish God?
2. How was Isaac an "idol" to Abraham?
3. Why would Abraham think that Isaac could be resurrected after sacrificing him?
I hope you don't think my questions are offensive. These things came up at your blog. I am truly looking forward to your explanation. Thanks.
Dear voice of faith,
DeleteThe Pope already told us to respect the culture of the different countries on February 1st of this year. The governing practices is part of the culture of a country, so we will obey the Pope. And obeying the Pope is based on Scripture and Church teaching.
So Diana, why don't you respect then the deacons, the priests, or Aaron for that matter? Respect the culture that says people are human beings with discerning mind that cannot be forced to serve the NeoCat! America is the land of the free. It is not a slogan, but a hard fact! The time of slavery has ended everywhere, even inside the Catholic Church. Do NeoCats want to bring it back?!
DeleteDear voice of faith,
DeleteThere is no force involved when priests and deacons made a promise to obey the Archbishop. As for Aaron Quitugua, he planned on joining the ministering priesthood, so he also must prepare himself to be obedient to the Archbishop. That means......when the Archbishop tells you to do something, then do it. Why? Because they made a promise to obey.
Dear voice of faith,
DeleteI deleted your other comments because you said something offensive about our catechists, which is uncalled for. I will answer your three questions in a post.
Deal all anti-NCW anonymous posters,
ReplyDeleteWe believe in transubstantiation. We believe in God, the Trinity, Mary and Joseph, etc.
You all will never listen to this or the fact of what the NCW has done for many families. So there is no use even trying to answer your questions.
If we say it helped marriages find Christ, you people would turn to whether or not we are SITTING down. If we talk about how it saved someone from desiring to commit suicide, you would turn around and wonder why we sing the songs we sing. If we talk about how it has changed the way we see death or serious illnesses, you would turn around and wonder if someone sitting 3 inches away from the person next to them.
ANYTHING!! You will all look for ANYTHING!
Get over it! Our families will forever be grateful for the NCW and there is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, that will change that.
When my family was going through a major crisis, where were all YOU PEOPLE (Catholic brothers and sisters)? I'll answer that for you. YOU WERE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. Fortunately, thank God....as you people would probably advise us with the lies of the devil and the world.
CHRIST found my family, through the NCW.
We are forever grateful.
Do me a favor and DROP YOUR STONES. If you'd like, you may just throw them at yourselves.
you do, but do your founders/initiators do? because what anti-NCW are doing is simply going by what they(kiko and carmen) say
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:20 am,
DeleteThe Initiators of the Way also believe in Transubstantiation. The only ones who say they do not are those who are against the Way, and their sources are from the same anti-NCW websites. They do not even quote Kiko,
Dear Anon at 8.22AM. Why are the catechetical texts kept secret? IN the context of the Catholic Church this is unique. Surely you would agree that if they were made available a lot of the misunderstandings could be ironed out?
ReplyDeleteNo I do not agree. See what someone posted recently : You have access to the first volume. It is on sale. Ask Chuck White where he acquired it. But believe it or not, even if this document was approved and praised by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, some people in Guam still manage to question it. Yes, discussing with certain people is definitely is an exercise in futility! Because a. they criticize even the Congregation and b. I am sure they will say “how do we know that the catechists are being constantly faithful to what is written?!” It keeps going on and on. You can never satisfy a doubting mind.
DeleteBy the way, I do not need to read the Catechetical Directory. I trust my catechists. They have never deceived me. They have brought fresh air to my Catholicism. Through them God saved my life. That is enough for me. Amen. Alleluia.
A PS for your general information. Founded by Pope Paul III in 1542, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith’s sole objective is to "spread sound Catholic Doctrine and defend those points of Christian tradition which seem in danger because of new and unacceptable doctrines.”
Just wanted to share that this topic of "Transubstantiation" and the "Real Presence" was actually the determining factor in my choosing of the NCW as an Itinerary for my faith.
ReplyDeleteI was told the same lie, that the "Neos" did not believe in this. Actually, some ministers here at my parish, San Dimas in Merizo, had already predicted that our "Divine Mercy Chapel" where there is 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration, that this Chapel would eventually close with the assignment of Father Wolchek in 2008. Its now 2014, soon 2015, and our chapel is still open, and our pastor Fr. Luis continues to find ways to encourage our parishioners to frequent the chapel. Father is also regularly seen at the chapel in adoration.
The assurance that the NCW does believe and promote the Eucharist actually came from my Catechist during a Lenten Announcement, He encouraged us to frequent the Blessed Sacrament, an Exposed Blessed Sacrament preferably as part of our Lenten Prayer journey. I said, Awesome!. This is for me.
Again, while on pilgrimage July of last year, for World Youth Day in Brazil, I was amazed that every "neo" parish had a Chapel dedicated to the Blessed Sacrament.
Anonymous September 24, 2014 at 11:14 AM
ReplyDeleteWould it really matter is the catechetical text is provided? If you don't understand the word of the Father in the bible, what makes you think you can understand the text? Praying that you'll understand the readings for the mass and Eucharist this weekend. Miracles do happen