Saturday, September 13, 2014

Obedience Is The Path To Peace

WikipediaThe Holy Bible speaks of obedience to authority.  Children are told to obey their parents (Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16).  The Holy Bible tells us to submit to the authority of the Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17).  .     

Obedience leads to peace.  If children obey their parents as they are told, there would be harmony in the human family.  So, if harmony and peace can exist in the human family though a child's obedience to his/her parents, how much more in God's family - the Church.  Peace and harmony would also exist in God's family where the laity obey their Church leaders, deacons and priests obey their Bishops and Bishops obey the Pope and the Pope obey God.  When Christ came incarnated as a man, He also submitted Himself to the authority of His Blessed mother Mary, His stepfather Joseph, and to God our Father.  Christ also submitted to the civil authorities by paying taxes (Matthew 17:27).  Christ is the role model and example we are to follow regarding obedience. 

According to Pope Francis, "Obedience, in fact, was the instrument with which to achieve peace".  The Pope said this as he commemorated the 50th anniversary of Pope John XXII on June, 2013.  According to the weblink below:  

Francis stressed that John XXIII’s obedience led him to live “a more profound faithfulness, which could be called, as he would say, abandonment to divine Providence.”

Peace was his most “obvious aspect,” he said, adding that John XXIII was “a man who was able to communicate peace, a natural, serene, friendly peace.”

It was a peace, he noted, that, with his election to the pontificate at the age of 76, was manifested to all the world and came to be called “his goodness.” Such a characteristic was “undoubtedly a hallmark of his personality, which enabled him to build strong friendships everywhere.”

Francis also remembered him as “an effective weaver of relationships and a good promoter of unity, inside and outside the Church community, open to dialogue with Christians of other churches, with members of the Jewish and Muslim traditions.”

Pope Francis also observed how John XXIII’s writings show “a soul taking shape, under the action of the Holy Spirit working in his Church,” that became a “prophetic intuition” when he convoked the Second Vatican Council.
Others also recalled his close relationship with the Holy Spirit and deep prayer life.

Jesuit Father Norman Tanner, professor of Church history at the Pontifical Gregorian University, said he was a “man of prayer,” and his “sensitivity to the movements of the Holy Spirit” led him to call Vatican II.

John XXIII Stressed Obedeince As The Path To Peace

52 comments:

  1. Diana -- Thank you for pointing out the very good example of John XXIII:

    "John XXIII was a man who was able to communicate peace, a natural, serene, friendly peace. It was a peace, he noted, that, with his election to the pontificate at the age of 76, was manifested to all the world and came to be called “his goodness.” Such a characteristic was “undoubtedly a hallmark of his personality, which enabled him to build strong friendships everywhere."

    "He was an effective weaver of relationships and a good promoter of unity, inside and outside the Church community..."

    Unlike Guam's Archbishop Apuron, John XXIII's Christ-like behavior was what earned him the respect & the obedience which Pope Francis calls for.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:10 a.m.,

      The Archbishop is obedient to the Pope. Unfortunately, some of his priests were disobedient. During the time that Deacon Steve Martinez was part of the financial council with Monsignor James, why hasn't the financial report been published every year??? The Archbishop has been asking for the financial report, and the deacon has never prepared it for 9-10 years. So, who is being disobedient?

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    2. The late Judge Cristobal Duenas was part of the financial council. Are you saying that this Man is also disobedient? Let it be known that the Judge is a man who would never go against what is not right! Woe to the person who smears this Judge's name. I am sure that if the financial statement was asked for, the judge would see that it was down and turned in.

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    3. Archbishop publicly went against Cardinals' letter..what are you talking about obedient?

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    4. Dear Anonymous at 4:25 and 5:20 p.m,

      The Archbishop needed the cooperation of the Finance Council. It was the job of the Finance Council to give the financial report to the Archbishop so he can have it published. That was their job. If it was only the job of the Archbishop who has to do the financial report and publish it, then what do you need a Finance Council for?? So, for the last 9-10 years, what was THIS Finance Council doing that a financial report was NEVER published and given to Rome???? The Archbishop has been asking the Finance Council for the report so he can turn it in to Balvo. Obviously, the Finance Council was not in cooperation, in disobedience, and even in neglect in doing its job.

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    5. So,what you are saying is that the late Judge didn't comply? I know that if it financial report was asked for, he would have had it done! Excuse me, but the late Judge takes pride in what he does and abides by the law! Don't go around assuming that the Archbishop asked! You like to make the assumption that this is it, without know what is. Do you know the reputation of the late Judge? If not, the. I think you better put the matter at rest.

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    6. Diana - I believe the 5:20 pm comment was in regards to Archbishop Apuron's public defiance of Cardinal Arinze (the Pope's representative) by questioning his credentials. It was on the radio where he displayed his disobedience. You might want to listen to it sometime.

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    7. No,no,no! The financial councils from parishes turn in report. Report is then screened by finance council at the chancery level.....chancery turns in report to Balvo. The buck stops with the chancery. Why is Deacon Steven the responsible party. Wasn't it Dominic Kim then Josephe Duenas then back to Dominic Kim as the responsible party for auditing. Pointing fingers again,,,,,go back in time and do your research......

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    8. anonymous 4:25.....the depths of which you have reached in an effort to support the finance council is beyond believe. What gains do you hope to achieve by associating the late Judge Duenas with this issue? Woe to the person who smears this Judges name......you just did anonymous 4:25...all by yourself.

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    9. Dear Anonymous at 4:15 p.m.,

      The Finance Council at the time was made of Richard Untalan, Monsignor James Benavente, Monsignor David Quitugua, Joseph Rivra, and Sister Mary Stephen Torres. So, no the judge was not there.

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    10. Dear Anonymous at 7:34 p.m.,

      I have listened to it. There is a difference between a disagreement and disobedience. Remember, in the Bible there were two sons. The father told the first son to do something. The first son said yes, but did not do it. Then the father told the second son to do something. The second son said no, but later changed his mind and did it. The person who was disobedient was the first son who said yes. The obedience is in the action rather than in the words.

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    11. Dear Anonymous at 10:05 p.m.,

      Deacon Steve Martinez was the Financial Advisor at the time. And during his time as the Financial Advisor, no financial report was ever turned in.

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    12. Diana, when they asked for the financial report, this was to cover all parishes! Were the financial reports of all parishes turned in? How can you say that Deacon Steve was again responsible. Before a report was turned into Balvo, was there a completion of reports by ALL PARISHES? Get it straight! NO REPORT FROM THE PARISHES =NO REPORT TO BALVO! It was an ARCHDIOCESAN REPORT which was to INCLUDE the RMS ASSETS ALSO!

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    13. Dear Anonymous at 6:59 a.m.,

      I think the problem is in the Agana Church where the Finance Council is. I have seen the financial report in my parish, and there were times I have seen the financial report published in the parish bulletin. You include the RMS also? What about the convent here in Guam as well as the Friary? From what I heard the Friary belongs to the Franciscans. The convent belongs to the sisters. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the RMS belongs to the Redemptoris Mater Corporation.

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  2. Diana, your concept of obedience smells rats to me! You don't have a mature understanding what constitutes obedience and what not. You might be too young and controlling your kids too tight. They need some freedom be given proper to their ages. Sometimes your kid says NO to you and you have to accept. Not because the kid is disobedient, but because your hurt her/his feeling. The same way, sometimes saying NO to a priest or bishop is absolutely necessary!

    You turned the Biblical story of Abraham upside down so you could justify your warped concept of obedience. I pointed out to you that Abraham was tested if he has the proper understanding of a sacrifice to God. He only had that after the test, when God sent his angel to switch the human sacrifice to animal one, so that no human life would be lost. This is the ethical dimension of our relation to God. We have to make ethical choices. If we believe that God is just, then we cannot accept injustice in the name of obedience.

    Catholic leaders cause great damage to the Church in the eye of the believers when they want to impose leashes on them to control. Believers do not need leashes, they need guidance in spiritual matters. A bishop cannot be unjust or unethical, because as soon as he is with us or with the clergy, he loses his authority in Christ. When someone is unjust or unethical, then he cannot speak in the name of the Savior! Our Lord is all just with strong ethical teaching, he wants us to make ethical choices! If we Catholics neglect this to understand and abandon Christ, then believers will turn away from the Church, toward other denominations. We should not cause Catholics to suffer. Even Vatican 2 talks about our joy in our faith and in our Lord.

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    1. Dear voice of faith,

      You say that I have to accept my kid's "no". My parents did not bring me up to disrespect them. And I am not going to bring up my kid to be defiant to me. If he disobeys me, he will be corrected and properly disciplined, not because I am strict, but because I love him and it is my responsibility to teach him right from wrong. It is wrong for a child to disobey his/her parent.

      As for Abraham, he was called the Father of faith excuse he had faith that even if he killed his child, he knew that God would raise him from the dead. He was called the father of faith because he was obedient to God and he loved God more than his son Isaac. Christ said that anyone who loves mother, father, or children more than Him is NOT worthy to be His disciple.

      There is nothing unjust in telling a priest to join in the NCW, and decide if he wants to continue or not. There is nothing unjust in asking a priest in opening his parish to the NCW to help those who need help.

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    2. Knock it out! They don't want to join then so be it! The problem with you folks is that I gotta follow what mama and papa does, but I too have a free will and I will not follow what I believe is not right. If mama and papa tells you to break and window, I suppose you will obey! There are limits and there are reasons for people not following they WAY.

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    3. voice of faith 10:51.....the test for father Abraham was not proper understanding of sacrifice to God but one of OBEDIENCE. Do you really think that God needs our sacrifice? Isaac represented Abraham idol and the test was to see who came first...our idols or God. OBEDIENCE

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      Ethical dimension of our relation to God? Ethics is a human practice that is switched on and off.
      Cannot follow Jesus Christ with ethics.

      Strike 2

      if we believe that God is just, then we cannot accept injustice in the name of obedience? Jesus Christ on the Cross did not have a problem with this..

      Strike 3

      voice of faith?

      Strike 4

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    4. Dear voice of faith, if your idea of a PC god was correct, Catholicism would boil down to a
      Buddhism-like philosophy not revelation. St. Paul tells slaves to be obedient to unjust masters. The revolution of Christianity is "love your enemies,do good to those who hate you". The question here is not wether AAA is ethical but wether you are Christian.

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 7:26 p.m.,

      As long as my kids are minors and under our responsibility, they must and should obey us. Mama and papa will not be telling them to break any windows because mama and papa loves their kids and knows their responsibility in bringing them up.

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    6. "St. Paul tells slaves to be obedient to unjust masters. The revolution of Christianity is "love your enemies,do good to those who hate you". The question here is not wether AAA is ethical but wether you are Christian."

      The Bible is full of inconsistencies. You need not look further than the story of Moses. If we go by your ideal of complete obeyance, God would have said: "Moses, don't go to Pharaoh. Don't tell him to free my people."

      The story didn't turn out that way, though.

      There are many passages in the Bible that state we should better ourselves, better our circumstances, and actively work to improve the world around us. These virtues do indeed mirror Buddhist philosophy and that's a good thing. A very good thing!

      I suspect that you intended to paint the concept of self-improvement in a negative light by aligning only with Buddhism, thus as being unChristian. The last several Popes have had wonderful relationships with Buddhist leaders. They have made great strides in drawing upon similarities in philosophies rather than highlighting minor differences. It's a shame that you choose extremely strict and narrow interpretations of the Bible to suit your defense of Apuron and the NCW.

      When you look at the Bible as a vast work of knowledge and philosophy, what stands out more?

      Obey your Bishop? Obey your slavemaster? Obey the unjust?

      - OR -

      Do good. Improve your circumstances. Live a life of service to your fellow mankind.

      A life of service to your fellow mankind. That's a far cry from "God chose me and only the Pope can get rid of me."


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    7. Diana, if that is your view on obedience, then I accept it -- for you! I respect as your way of being obedient upward to your supervisors and demanding obedience downwards from others. Perhaps you are an administrator who treats people like this every day. However, you cannot enforce your view on others. Is that clear for you? The American way of life is based on freedom. This freedom can be restricted by good ethics only, not by intimidation.

      It is okay for a kid, and not disrespectful unless your kid, to say NO to her/his parents. Especially if the kid feels it is unjust what you ask for. Otherwise how would you know?! Then you'll have a chance to overrule your decision or stick to it, depending on how you evaluate your kid's emotional reaction. The important thing is that you do evaluate before you spell out the final verdict. This is modern parenting, except in those families with an old 19th century morality. Why? Because then you kid will respect you more for taking his/her input into consideration. I hope, you don't work in a school, Diana, so young kids are safe from your ancient, restrictive views of obedience.

      In some Asian countries some mothers of poor neighborhoods force their daughters to the streets to make money. Sometimes they push them into prostitution or sell their virginity for money. Do you think some pure girl devoted to Jesus could grow into being a Little St. Theresa in such an environment unless she is firm enough in her faith to tell NO to her mother? Just think about this a bit before you start to bludgeon what you hear.

      It was Soren Kierkegaard, a 19th century Protestant existentialist philosopher who said Abraham is the exemplary Christian in obedience. It is a Protestant view that has filtered through its way into some Catholic circles and caused considerable confusion in the 20th century theological thinking. The prevalent Jewish view, as I quoted before at this blog, would link Abraham's test to making ethical choices. It was unethical to sacrifice human, as Abraham wanted to sacrifice Isaac, that is why God sent his angel to replace Isaac with a ram. Human sacrifice was a custom of the pagan Canaanites at the time and God wanted to separate Abraham from paganism once and for all. That is why He taught Abraham to make ethical choices based on discernment rather than on blind obedience.

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    8. Dear Anonymous at 1:00 AM, being ethical is not the same as being PC. You promote here a 19th century obedience that was imposed on Guamanian people by the Spanish conquerors. The Spanish king wanted order and quiet on his colonies so he sent the religious with a message of blind obedience. This became firmly rooted in Guamanian Catholicism.

      However, there is another message in the Bible, the message of compassion and charity, as the Americanization of the island pointed out very early from the 20th century. Please, try to see this whole thing in historical perspective. This message is also Scriptural and is about freedom and liberalism, corresponding to the cultural values of modern America.

      So the real question is truly this: has the Catholic population of Guam already grown up to a mature ethical and liberal world view that is American in its innermost nature or remained in a sophomore level Spanish imposed subjugation mindset that history has swept already away in all other parts of the world?!

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    9. Dear voice of faith,

      Many kids would feel that it is unjust for teachers to impose homeworks on them because they do not want to do their homework. They prefer to play with their friends or talk on the phone for hours. Many kids would feel that it is unjust for parents to give them chores to do. My parents raised me up to be obedient and respectful of them, the teachers, and adult superiors. I teach my kids the same way. I do not disobey or show any disrespect to my parents, my boss, or the Archbishop. And when my kids see this, they understood that I practice what I teach to them, and that has an even greater impact on them.

      In the same way, Deacon Steve feels that it is unjust for the Archbishop to tell him to join the Way. He calls it FORCE and he forgets that he was given the choice to leave after his ordination. If it was really force, he would never have been given the choice to leave. Deacon Steve simply has a GRUGE against the Archbishop, and he has been holding this grudge for ten long years.



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    10. Dear voice of faith,

      Are you saying that the Chamorro people only learned obedience from the Spanish???? The ancient Chamorros also taught their children to obey and respect their parents, grandparents, and elders. That is true for all cultural societies. The Chamorros had rules that everyone was expected to obey.

      It was the Catholic Church who taught us to respect the Bishops and priests. And the Catholic Church is not the same as the Spanish government. It was the Spanish government who set to conquer people and lands. The main goal of the Catholic Church is to spread the Gospel so souls can be saved.

      You actually think that the message of compassion and charity came from the Americanization of Guam?????? It was Jesus Christ through His Church that taught compassion and charity long before the Americans came here. And for your information, America was not all compassionate. America discriminated against the Chamorro people. The Americans forbid the Chamorros to speak their native language in the schools and punished those who spoke it. They treated the Chamorros unfairly.

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    11. Blast 1: The Gospel is the same, but the time when and what you read out of it is a changing.

      Blast 2: Modern time is not only American time, it is universal.

      Blast 3: Compassion and charity is only meaningful in freedom and liberalism.

      Blast 4: We live in the 21st century even on Guam.

      You are blasted, Diana.

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    12. Dear voice of faith,
      historical perspective in your welntanshaung = relativism. again truth is truth, in the 1st, 10th 19th and 21st century. your perspective is not Catholic, it is subjective relativism.

      Obedience to the Catholic hierarchy transcends personal ideas of ethics because at the head of the Church is Christ Himself. To obey one's bishop is to obey Christ. If the bishop is wrong, or makes mistakes or is personally repulsive, you still obey (unless he is commanding you to commit something sinful) because FAITH says that Christ, who is the bishop's boss, will rectify whatever injustice you have received at the hands of your bishop: the fight becomes Christ's not yours. This leaves you free to forgive the injustice and love your enemy because you have remitted your cause to a higher judge.
      However, in order to allow someone to commit gross injustice against you and not retaliate, you need to really believe that God is greater than human understanding and justice, and that he will act, even in a way that makes no sense to you. You have to trust God to be more just than human ethics, and to be able to bring good out of evil.
      This is not 19th century pedagogy, it is Catholicism.

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    13. Dear voice of faith,

      Regarding your blasts:

      1. The Bible existed toward the end of the fourth century. Before that, the only scripture that existed were the Old Testament books. And at the time of Abraham, there was no scripture.

      2. In our modern time, there are still some countries who are not as technologically advanced as the western world. There are also developing countries. There are also people in Yap who are still living the same way their long ago ancestors did.

      3. Compassion and charity can also exist in communist countries or countries with dictatorships. Compassion and charity are found in people of all nations regardless of their countries' government.

      4. This is the only thing you got correct.

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  3. "Obedience leads to peace. If children obey their parents as they are told, there would be harmony in the human family."

    This assumes that all parents are honest, just, and righteous.

    So here we go again with the grand NCW assumption - that Apuron is all the above - despite evidence to the contrary.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 11:35 a.m.,

      This assumes that a VAST MAJORITY of parents love their children and therefore bring them up the best way they can.

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  4. @Diana 5:52. "the Finance Council was not in cooperation, in disobedience, and even in neglect in doing its job. " The Archbishop is on the Finance Council, no?

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 5:58 p.m.,

      No, it was Deacon Steve Martinez who was supposed to be in charge of providing the financial report to the Archbishop.

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    2. Archbishop is a trusting person. If he asks you to do something, he trusts you and does not check every single iota of your assignment. Some people took advantage of this trust.

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    3. Who took advantage of the "trust" of the Archbishop? Where's the evidence of this?

      If you don't provide it - via a financial statement or the like - then you are merely slandering people.

      Just like the Archbishop has refused to provide financial statements or even a formal accusation against Msgr. James. He just runs around and publicly slanders him. No proof. Nada.

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    4. Dear Anonymous at 5:31 p.m.,

      The accusation was read to Monsignor James. The Archbishop is not giving a copy because he already knows that it will end up published in the jungle. That is the consequences of what the jungle had done. And the Archbishop is not running around publicly slandering Monsignor James. He's been very quiet.

      The financial mismanagement is so bad that it is taking a bit longer to sort all the improprieties that they have discovered. Once all that has been sorted out, it will be published. Then everyone will know everything.

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    5. If Archbishop Apuron stands behind his accusations, there shouldn't be any reason to keep it under cover. If he believes in what he is doing, so what if it ends up in the jungle? What is he afraid of?

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    6. Can't wait to know everything!! Luckily, Msgr James has David Lujan, a local, born & raised attorney instead of someone who is not from here.

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    7. Dear Anonymous at 10:47 p.m.,

      Private and confidential papers should not be published. Once the Internal Review is done, then it can be published. Unfortunately, it is taking a long time because there has been too much financial mismanagement, and the Internal Review is trying to sort everything out. The problem is actually much worse than first anticipated.

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  5. Speaking of obedience: http://cruxsancta.blogspot.com/2014/09/cronica-de-una-desobediencia-anunciada.html

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  6. Diana that explain the rebellious act of this Deacon, last night fiesta at the Cathedral is beautiful. The Archbishop walk arround greeting people and base my observation people who I taught who followed Msgr James remain in the parish. The dumb part the Knights of the Colombu has a seperate preparation. This is not passing judgement but ultimate seperation.

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  7. Obey you Archbishop. He was appointed by God.

    Period.

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    1. If the Archbishop is morally bereft, should we still obey?

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    2. God appointed a pope who had many mistresses and poisoned his enemies, including fellow men of the cloth.

      God also "appointed" a pope who exhumed his predecessor and put his corpse on trial.

      The Church isn't God. It isn't infallible.

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    3. Anonymous 10:00 am - The Church is infallible in terms of faith and morals, please review your catechism. The pope is the vicar of Christ and when he teaches in terms of faith and morals ex cathedra then he speak infallibly. The bishops in union with him form what we call the magisterium of the church. Your ignorance is of immensely obvious.
      Unfortunately, people have chosen to discredit the archbishop. Please wait and see that will be uncovered once we se the truth of the financials of the cemetery and cathedral. Already the clergy and religious have been informed. Fasten your seat belts, this is gonna be a bumpy ride!

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    4. Anon 9:52 and 10:00 (Although I feel you are the same person),

      These are questions you should ask God when you pray? All you basically told me is that God chose men. When I say men, I mean the creatures that He created and yes, are sinners. I never said the Church IS God, but as a Catholic, I know God is with those in His Church. Good job, you pointed out that we are sinners. We already know that. The archbishop and his superior are sinners. We all know that!


      STILL, Obey your archbishop. Again, be he ( a sinner) was appointed by God. Yes, God Himself. Unless of course you believe God made a mistake with this decision, which would lead to you saying God makes mistakes.

      I am a sinner, and God loves me still. He says so Himself. The Archbishop is human, and God loves him too. God said so Himself. The appointed ones in our church history did wrong. God loves them too.


      So yes, In the end...I am saying RESPECT YOUR ARCHBISHOP.

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    5. >"Good job, you pointed out that we are sinners."

      Thanks. What I pointed out was that there have been many evil men who have risen to power inside the church, not merely sinners. Your notion that a man - Archbishop Apuron - is infallible in all ways is simply incorrect.

      >"The Church is infallible in terms of faith and morals, please review your catechism."

      "Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly...provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively."

      Pope's Viewpoint: The NCW should not be forced upon people.
      Apuron's Viewpoint: Yes it should.

      Pope's Viewpoint: The Church needs to be more transparent, including finances.
      Apuron's Viewpoint: The Church needs to be less transparent, especially with its finances.

      Pope's Viewpoint: Follow the liturgy of the Church.
      Apuron's Viewpoint: Nah. Follow the liturgy of Kiko.

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    6. Dear Anonymous at 5:18 p.m.,

      The Financial report will be published soon. Because of all the improprieties that they are discovering, it will take time to sort everything together. Then everyone will know everything.

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    7. Soon the real truth will reveal and people will start running including Tim Rohr in the payroll. He threaten he will seek legal action if his information publicly reveal. What sort of man you seek who started this mess. Can't wait for the Popes letter. If the EXCOMMUNICATION occur today; prediction of the following will be out of the Catholic Church.

      Tim Rohr,Chuck White, Mary Lou Garcia Pereda, Eileen Blas,Gerald Taitano,Marilu M.D.Mike Crisostomo,Owen Bollinger,Ray Dalisay,Fr.Efren, Fr.James Benavente and Deacon Martinez.

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    8. Dear Anonymous at 10:07 am,

      The fact that Tim Rohr does not want any information about himself revealed linking to the financial mismanagement shows that he has something to hide. If there are other benefits that Tim Rohr received while employed under the payroll of Monsignor James and linked to any financial management should be revealed by the Internal Review.

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    9. But Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than any human authority. Acts 5:29 (NLT).
      In this cases here in Guam, If Jesus were here, Jesus would be the first one to protest, rebel...
      sorry. I am on the side of the Rebel Jesus.

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    10. Dear Isaias,

      Do not take scripture out of context. Peter and the Apostles said those words to the Pharisees after they commanded them not to teach in Jesus' name.

      Isaias, do you believe that Jesus is God?

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  8. Anonymous September 14, 2014 at 9:52 AM

    We cannot compare the works of the Lord to the works of men. John Chapter 10: 22-39. I will however pray and give thanks to our Father who sent his only Son for those who do are blind, crippled and poor in spirit. Not to sound priestly, saintly or saved but to acknowledge that we are no different or better than these popes you mentioned above. In spite of your comment....the Church isn't God; I believe nonetheless that you do believe there is a God. One that loves you....loves all for who we are. Isn't that great!

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