Saturday, June 21, 2014

Neocatechumenal Way Liturgy And Statistics



The following are information about the Neocatechumenal Way taken from their facebook website and in the weblink I provided below.  It is interesting to note that Msgr. Juan Arrieta, Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts summarized how we receive the Body of Christ.  He said that we are to receive the Body of Christ standing up, and then take a seat until all have received the Body of Christ.  This was the change that took place in 2008, which I kept saying.  This was the change that was approved by the Holy See.

Neocatechumenal Way

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The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has observed the Way's liturgical practices from the beginning. Pope John Paul II celebrated the Eucharist at the meeting with the communities in Porto San Giorgio in 1989, exactly as the communities do it, including the communion rite in a sitting position.

Cardinal Francis Arinze, however, the Prefect of the Congregation from 2002 until 2008, was unwilling to accept the differences in the liturgy of the neocatechumenal Eucharist. In December 2005, he wrote a private letter to Arguello, Hernández and Pezzi on behalf of Pope Benedict. He warned that "[i]n the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything." The letter directed members of the Way to adopt the prescribed method of receiving Holy Communion, to participate in parish life, and to celebrate Mass with the rest of the parish community on at least one Sunday each month.

The Way argues that Arinze's letter has been superseded by the Final Statute of the Neocatechumenal Way insofar as it says that “the celebrations of the Eucharist of the neocatechumenal communities on Saturday evening are part of the Sunday liturgical pastoral work of the parish and are open also to other faithful.”The Way argues that this means that by participating in the Saturday evening Eucharistic celebration with their communities, members of the Neocatechumenal Way are already partaking in the Holy Mass of the parish community. In his Canonical Observations on the Definitive Approval of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, Msgr. Juan Arrieta, Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, summarizes the liturgical concessions of the Neocatechumenal Way as follows:
“First, that the neocatechumens celebrate the Eucharist in the small community, after the First Vespers of Sunday. Second, that this celebration, after First Vespers takes place according to the disposition of the diocesan bishop. Third, that these celebrations [...] are part of the pastoral work and consequently are open to all the faithful. Fourth, that in these celebrations the liturgical books approved by the Roman Rite are followed, 'with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See' (always with unleavened bread), moving the rite of peace before the consecration, communion under both species, brief admonitions and echoes and, finally, a new way for the distribution of Communion: 'Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive standing, remaining at their place.' The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host. The ecce Agnus Dei along with the Domine non sum dignus are typically recited but is sometimes omitted due to error on the part of the celebrant. Sharing the cup takes place afterward, individually, while the faithful are standing at their seats and a priest or Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion carries the chalice around.
In an interview with the Spanish newspaper La Razón, Antonio Cardinal Cañizares, current Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, expressed his view on the Eucharistic celebration of the Neocatechumenal Way:
"There are no liturgical anomalies [in the Eucharist]; everything is in full compliance of the guidelines of the ‘Ordo Missae.’ What I have really seen there are Eucharists celebrated without any hurry, with a great faith, and where you can perceive the joy and the thanksgiving for the gift which is being bestowed in the Eucharist.”
The Statutes also mention the sacrament of Penance celebrated according to the rite of reconciliation for multiple penitents, with individual confession and absolution.

Regional Statistics:
  • The highest number of communities found in Europe (and the World) are found in Italy (10,000 communities) and Spain (7,000 communities).

  • The highest number of communities in the world in a country per capita is found in Malta, which has 100 communities in an island of 400,000 persons, which is the equivalent of twice the number of communities both in Italy and in Spain.

  • The Way is present in all continents, in over 900 dioceses, with a total of about 40,000 communities in 6,000 parishes. Each community may consist of 20~50 members (Brothers and sisters). In 2014 there are 100 Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer) seminaries in total.

  • In Africa there are 800 communities, as well as in the Middle East with Lebanon having the highest number of communities.


83 comments:

  1. Geez Diana this is what I found . Seems to be some kind of discrepancy between the Msgr. Statement and that of the Cardinal regarding Communion.

    On receiving the Holy Communion
    In response to an interview in December 2008 Cardinal Cañizares Llovera stated regarding the best way to receive the Eucharist: "What does it mean to receive communion in the mouth? What does it mean to kneel before the Most Holy Sacrament? What does it mean to kneel during the consecration at Mass? It means adoration, it means recognizing the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist; it means respect and an attitude of faith of a man who prostrates before God because he knows that everything comes from Him, and we feel speechless, dumbfounded, before the wondrousness, his goodness, and his mercy. That is why it is not the same to place the hand, and to receive communion in any fashion, than doing it in a respectful way; it is not the same to receive communion kneeling or standing up, because all these signs indicate a profound meaning."

    In August 2010, the Cardinal stated that, due to the impact of earlier cultural impact and formation in children who learn at an earlier age, who are faced with mature issues earlier, and who are enormously influenced by modern morality, ethical systems, and the mass communications media, it might be preferable to start preparations for receiving the Sacraments of Penance and the Eucharist at an earlier age, which could also lead to lowering the age of reception for those sacraments (which is now about 7 or 8, the age of reason, where young children begin to be held responsible for their actions and belief systems).

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 7:41 p.m.,

      There was no discrepancy at all. In December,2008 when Cardinal Canizares Llovera made that statement, it was NOT to the NCW at all.

      https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=166735166736513&story_fbid=517997378276955

      However, on December 14, 2008, he was interviewed by the Spanish newspaper La Razón. In the interview regarding the Eucharist of the Neocatechumenal Way, he stated the following:

      "There are no liturgical anomalies [in the Eucharist]; everything is in full compliance of the guidelines of the ‘Ordo Missae.’ What I have really seen there are Eucharists celebrated without any hurry, with a great faith, and where you can perceive the joy and the thanksgiving for the gift which is being bestowed in the Eucharist.”

      As I pointed out....there was no discrepancy at all because he was addressing two different groups of people. In the first, he was referring to the Eucharist of the Traditional Catholics. And the second interview, he was addressing the Eucharist of the Neocatechumenal Way.

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    2. Anon 7:41 PM it's a celebration not a funeral mass.

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    3. Dear Anonymous at 11:00 p.m.,

      I do not understand what you mean by this.

      But I think it is obvious that it was two different interviews. Anonymous at 7:41 p.m., probably got the information from the same website I provided. There was nothing in that website about the Neocatechumenal Way, but it did say something about the Tridentine Mass.

      Delete
  2. It was on December 14, 2008 during an interview with a Spanish newspaper La Razón, that Antonio Cardinal Cañizares, the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, expressed his view on the Eucharistic celebration of the Neocatechumenal Way:

    "There are no liturgical anomalies [in the Eucharist]; everything is in full compliance of the guidelines of the ‘Ordo Missae.’ What I have really seen there are Eucharists celebrated without any hurry, with a great faith, and where you can perceive the joy and the thanksgiving for the gift which is being bestowed in the Eucharist.”

    This was said by the Prefect after the changes were made. It was in October 2008 that I remember a change was made in how we receive the Eucharist. In my blogsite, I stated that I heard Father Pius said that they were given these instructions from Kiko, who in turn received the same instructions from the Pope. This change was universal. In the past, we used to receive the Body of Christ sitting down. The change that was made was to receive the Body of Christ standing up, then we sit down until everyone has received the Body of Christ.

    In his Canonical Observations on the Definitive Approval of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, Msgr. Juan Arrieta, Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, summarizes the liturgical concessions of the Neocatechumenal Way as follows:

    “First, that the neocatechumens celebrate the Eucharist in the small community, after the First Vespers of Sunday. Second, that this celebration, after First Vespers takes place according to the disposition of the diocesan bishop. Third, that these celebrations [...] are part of the pastoral work and consequently are open to all the faithful. Fourth, that in these celebrations the liturgical books approved by the Roman Rite are followed, 'with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See' (always with unleavened bread), moving the rite of peace before the consecration, communion under both species, brief admonitions and echoes and, finally, a new way for the distribution of Communion: 'Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive standing, remaining at their place.' The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host. The ecce Agnus Dei along with the Domine non sum dignus are typically recited but is sometimes omitted due to error on the part of the celebrant. Sharing the cup takes place afterward, individually, while the faithful are standing at their seats and a priest or Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion carries the chalice around.

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  3. Nice explanation and educate and you don't promote hate.

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  4. Diana, I hope you are humble enough to admit when you have made an error I have previously posted a reply but you have not published it yet. I shall try again:

    Diana, we've been through this before - are you being deliberately deceptive?

    The quote from Msgr. Juan Arrieta is wrong, as you well know. Here is a link to the actual document from an offical Way site: http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=statuto08_4

    You will see then, that Msgr Arrieta did not say this section:"The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host. The ecce Agnus Dei along with the Domine non sum dignus are typically recited but is sometimes omitted due to error on the part of the celebrant. Sharing the cup takes place afterward, individually, while the faithful are standing at their seats and a priest or Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion carries the chalice around."

    This was added by the facebook author or wikipedia or whoever, but certainly it was not the Msgr or any official of the Holy See who said that. But you knew this already because this came up on a comment post on another of your pages some time ago.

    If I am wrong, and the Msgr actually did say this, you will have no problem finding the primary source, but otherwise, I'm left wondering why would you choose to deceive people, Diana?

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 12:54 p.m.,

      You are correct. I had forgotten all about that. I had already written 160 posts and published over 1000 comments, and I just remembered about it. Thank you for correcting me. That last part was added in and Wikipedia and the weblink I posted are both asking for citation for the last statement. Nevertheless, that is what we have been doing since 2008. Also, this has been on the Internet so the NCW was not hiding what we were doing during the Eucharistic celebration. If this way of receiving Holy Communion is an error and did not come from the Vatican, the Pope never said anything about it.

      It was never my intention to deceive people, Anonymous 12:54 p.m. You judge me too easily.

      Delete
    2. It may not have been your intention to deceive, but the intention to deceive is in there somewhere. Either the facebook author, the wikipedia author or someone with a vested interest in the NCW set out to deceive by including those words in quotation marks. Is your faith in your leadership and hierarchy disturbed by this?

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 6:26 p.m.,

      If the intention was truly there to deceive, it would not even be in facebook or Wikipedia at all. In my blogsite, I did say that when receiving the Body of Christ, we stand up and then sit down until everyone receives the Body of Christ. It is even in the YouTube video that Tim Rohr found on the Internet. The video on Youtube and what was printed in facebook and Wikipedia does not contradict anything with what I said nor with what we have been practicing since 2008. What is needed now is the source or citation for that quote. If it came from Arrieta, it must have come from some other document or interview.

      Delete
    4. But it didn't come from Arrieta at all. That is the deception. Do we really need to get a letter from Msgr Arrieta for you to concede that?
      This is what you have written on this page:
      "It is interesting to note that Msgr. Juan Arrieta, Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts summarized how we receive the Body of Christ. He said that we are to receive the Body of Christ standing up, and then take a seat until all have received the Body of Christ. This was the change that took place in 2008, which I kept saying. This was the change that was approved by the Holy See."

      Do you still stand by that? Or do you admit that there is actually no evidence anywhere (I have looked, by the way) for you to claim that Msgr arrieta confirmed the particular method of NCW communion. This is exactly the same sort of error that was made in relation to Cardinal Tagle.

      Now that you know the truth, you have a responsibility to post a correction to your article, and request that the facebook page be amended too (you did say "The following are information about the Neocatechumenal Way taken from their facebook website"). You are responsible, aren't you?

      Delete
    5. Dear Anonymous at 7:18 p.m.,

      How do you or anyone else know for certain that it did not come from Arrieta? People in Junglewatch are even claiming that I am Father Adrian, and some of them appear to be 100% certain about it.

      This is what is written on the page:

      The faithful receive the precious body while standing, take seat and wait until all have received. Then the celebrant says 'Body of Christ, bring us everlasting life!' and the whole congregation consumes immediately after the priest consumes the host. The ecce Agnus Dei along with the Domine non sum dignus are typically recited but is sometimes omitted due to error on the part of the celebrant. (CITATION NEEDED).

      A citation is needed to support this. The statement is written, but a citation is needed for verification. I already said that you are correct. Because there is no verification as of yet, you are correct. A correction is not needed. What is needed is a citation so it can be verified.

      On the other hand, there is verification on what Antonio Cardinal Cañizares, current Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, stated. According to the Cardinal on December 14, 2008:

      "There are no liturgical anomalies [in the Eucharist]; everything is in full compliance of the guidelines of the ‘Ordo Missae.’ What I have really seen there are Eucharists celebrated without any hurry, with a great faith, and where you can perceive the joy and the thanksgiving for the gift which is being bestowed in the Eucharist.”

      Do you have anything you want to say regarding the Cardinal's interview in the Spanish newspaper La Razon?

      Delete
    6. Actually, the text you quote (from facebook or wiki) clearly presents the disputed text as if it continued on from what the msgr wrote here : http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=statuto08_4

      And that is a deception. The text in dispute is clearly an addition made by the NCW - a description of the mechanics of the NCW communion. Most likely it originally followed the quote as a new paragraph (in fact I recall it having been written that way the first time I saw it on wiki some time ago), and was then incorporated within the quotation marks. Another clue that this is the case is that the words "citation needed" occur before the end of the full "quote", and there is a final sentence just hanging there after the "citation needed".

      Of course, any reasonable person would conclude that it would be imprudent, if not dangerous to perpetuate this invented quote any further, and at the very least, clearly point out that there is no evidence that the Msgr ever said it.

      If we get the reply of the Msgr that confirms that he never made these statements, what would you say? Another "miscommunication" perhaps? How many more "miscommunications" do you believe, Diana?

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    7. And yes, I will allow Sandro Magister to comment on the Cardinal's interview:

      "There is a shrewdness that the Neocatechumenals adopt when popes, bishops, or cardinals participate in or are present at their Masses: that of adhering to the general liturgical rules.

      Cardinal Cañizares is not the only one to have fallen into this trap. Or to have believed that the liturgical excesses of the Way, if any, are minimal and forgivable, in comparison with the fervor of faith of those who participate in them.

      Like him, many other cardinals and bishops look kindly on the Neocatechumenals, particularly in Spain. In the Vatican curia, they have a fiery supporter in the prefect of "Propaganda Fide," Fernando Filoni, previously the substitute secretary of state.

      Thus, while with the other Catholic movements the Vatican authorities are inflexible in demanding respect for the liturgical norms, with the Neocatechumenals they are more indulgent."

      http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350144?eng=y

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    8. The truth is that nobody have ever questioned the way Eucharist is distributes in the Neocatechumenal communities since 2008. Why? Because of the simple reason that is is the only proper way of distributing the Eucharist during mass in small communities. Just try any other form and you will fail. For example, there is no room to line up or kneel down in a small community setup.

      The Sacrament of the Body is not simply to fulfill dry book formulations but to bring to us the reality of the Lord Jesus among us through His precious and real presence in the holy host. How could those who don't understand this very simple thing have ever experienced His love?

      Having the blessed time of common consumption of the Body of Christ in the Way when everyone is eating the Holy Bread, well this is something so dear and satisfying moment that cannot be replaced by anything else. This is sheer joy delivered to our souls directly by the Holy Spirit! Of course, mean people of dark mindsets will jealously deny and never understand this precious joy in Christ! Even if it is freely available for them, as well. Love and Peace.

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    9. Dear Anonymous at 8:17 p.m.,

      I see you have nothing to say about the Cardinal's statement.

      Delete
    10. Dear Anonymous at 8:22 p.m.,

      It appears that you have absolutely no trust in God that you think the leaders should be following you rather than the other way around.

      Delete
    11. Anon at 10.18pm, there is nothing that would prohibit the NCW from receiving communion standing, and consuming the blessed sacrament immediately. This is how it is done in small communities outside of the NCW. And this would be in conformity to the concessions granted by the Holy See as well as with the liturgical books.

      It is sheer wilfulness that is behind the NCW continuing to ignore the direction of the Holy See. Do you find disobedience "so dear and satisfying"?

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    12. Dear Anonymous at 11:16 a.m.,

      It was the Holy See who told us how to celebrate it the way we do it in the NCW. So, we follow those directions because we were told that it came from the Holy See. The way we received Holy Communion is universal in all the communities of the NCW regardless of what country they are from.

      Delete
    13. "It was the Holy See who told us how to celebrate it the way we do it in the NCW. So, we follow those directions because we were told that it came from the Holy See. The way we received Holy Communion is universal in all the communities of the NCW regardless of what country they are from."

      The Holy See did not tell you to celebrate the way you do. That is a lie - another deception, which has been demonstrated to you time and again. In fact, you say "we were told that it came from the Holy See". But, the Holy See issues very clear directions, available to anyone. You do not have to "be told" what the Holy See has instructed. Its in the documents - look for yourself, decide for yourself on what the Holy See actually says - not on "what you are told" by people who have deceived you, or at the very least people who are prone to "miscommunications". You can't trust these people as they will tell you only that which matches Kiko's intentions.

      The fact that "The way we received Holy Communion is universal in all the communities of the NCW regardless of what country they are from." does not help your argument, but only shows how the NCW comes to dominate and pervert the light of reason given to you all from God. Think for yourself for a change.

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    14. Dear Anonymous at 2:2 p.m.,

      I trust God, and it was God who put the Pope in charge. He did not put YOU in charge. I trust the people whom God put in charge. All five Popes supported the Way and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. I am not going to reject what all five Popes have supported and endorsed. Are you going to tell me that all five Popes are wrong in supporting the Way?

      Delete
    15. No, I'm going to tell you that the popes have supported the good aspects of the Way but not the bad. Which is why from time to time, the popes have given guidelines, suggestions, admonishments, sought investigations, made corrections to texts, issued concessions, made prohibitions and orders etc.

      But, only those instructions that were acceptable to Kiko and his intentions have been propagated through the NCW. Hence, even though the "Popes" through various means have addressed the manner of communion in the NCW, you still do the other thing, because "you were told to" by Kiko. Not the Pope, not the Holy See. Kiko.

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    16. Also, God didn't put the Pope "in charge". The Pope is the servant of God, the servant of Truth, made manifest in Jesus Christ himself. The same Jesus who is again made manifest himself in his full humanity and Divinity in the Eucharist. Do you not realize that when you receive communion, you receive the Majesty of God, veiled first in flesh and blood, and then again in bread and wine.

      Despite all the legalities and arguments, the concessions of the Holy See and the "Are you going to tell me that all five Popes are wrong in supporting the Way?" rhetoric, you have never sought to justify why it is truly better to do it Kiko's way (remember, that in the entire Catholic Church, it is only those that follow Kiko that do it this way).

      There is great shame to receive the Godhead as though you are eating any old thing. As much honor and glory is due Him as we can muster. Which is why, in every age, those that see through the eyes of faith, fall to their knees in adoration.

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    17. Dear Anonymous at 6:27 p.m.,

      We live in the age of the Internet. The Pope is not ignorant. He already knows how we celebrate because it is all on the Internet. It is in the Way's facebook, in Youtube, in blogsites, and other websites. Pope Benedict XVI DID order an investigation, but nothing ever came of it. When Pope Francis took over, he ceased all investigation of the Way.

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    18. Dear Anonymous at 6:50 p.m.,

      God DID put the Pope "in charge." Have you forgotten that Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of Heaven????? The keys symbolized "authority." The keys were passed on to the successors of the Apostle Peter. Have you forgotten that Christ told Peter three times to take care of His entire flock???? When Christ told Peter to take care of His entire flock, He was putting Peter in charge of them. This charge was passed on to Peter' successors.

      Already, you are telling me something false when you say that God did not put the Pope in charge. This statement is false. And this is why I listen to the Pope, not to you.

      CCC 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

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  5. If the Rohr's congregation of the Liturgy and the Archbishop? Are they still Catholic? Or just excommunicate themselves.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 1:02 p.m.,

      I do not quite understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the Latin Traditional Mass, which Tim Rohr attends still Catholic? If so, the answer is yes. The Latin Traditional Mass is Catholic.

      Excommunication, however, is a different topic. Sometimes, it is not needed for the Pope or Archbishop to excommunicate a person. For example, women who had an abortion are automatically excommunicated. Many women are unaware of this, and the Church needs to educate the faithful more about abortion. Abortion is a very serious and grave sin that constitutes automatic excommunication.

      On the other hand, when a person goes deliberately against the teachings of the Catholic Church, they are also putting themselves OUTSIDE the Church, but it is not considered "excommunication." It is, however a separation from God and His Church.

      For example, if a person supports same sex marriage, the person is not in union with God or the teachings of the Church. Holy Communion signifies that one is in Union with God and with all Church teachings. If a person supports gay marriage, the person should refrain from receiving Holy Communion. Although they are not excommunicated, they placed themselves outside of the Catholic Church because he/she goes against Church teaching.

      Delete
  6. Sorry to confuse you Diane. Using my smart phone and it's difficult to type. I'M ANON 1:02 PM. What I meant if Quaker Rohr Congregation are against the Archbishop and the Way Liturgy. Are they still Catholic?

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 3:20 p.m.,

      Thank you for the clarification. Yes, Tim Rohr and the rest of his congregation (followers) are Catholic. They are still our Catholic brothers despite that they put themselves outside the Catholic Church.

      Delete
  7. Diana, how do JW bloggers put themselves outside of the church. I think you should be on solid ground before saying that. Pretty Strong. I'm a brother; but uneasy with this.

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    1. Dear Anonymous at 5:00 p.m.,

      This was what Jesus said more than 2000 years ago, which is written in the Holy Bible:

      John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

      They are the other sheep. The other sheep loves Jesus Christ as we do, but they put themselves outside the Catholic Church because they do not obey and respect the Archbishop nor do they endorse what the Pope (the Vicar of Christ) endorse. In other words, they do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, and they do not accept everything the Church accepts. If they did, they would recognize that their leader whom they are to respect is the Archbishop.

      Instead, they express so much defiance and disrespect toward the Archbishop of Guam. Five Popes endorsed the Neocatechumenal Way, and they rejected what all those 5 Popes endorsed. This is how they put themselves outside the Catholic Church.

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    2. This is your heavy duty JUDGEMENT, Diana. We are trying in every way possible for Archbishop to HEAR US. Other methods have not been effective for years and years. Maybe we think it is you who have put yourselves OUTSIDE of the Church. Maybe. Lighten up. And take that judgement back.

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    3. Diane if they're outside? Then they are half bake. What made me ponder; to against the Archbishop and continue to receive communion. That ain't right. You must reconcile with a brother that you have judgement with. My take, I just can't take it. I won't feel right.

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    4. Dear Anonymous at 9:55 p.m.,

      I agree with you. Jesus said to leave thy gift at the altar and reconcile with thy brother. After one has reconciled with thy brother, then he can return to the altar. Reconciliation is very important to Christ. A woman who has gotten an abortion cannot go to the altar and receive Holy Communion. She must go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It is the same with a person who advocate for same sex marriage and homosexuality. They cannot receive Holy Communion at the altar because they are not in communion with Church teaching. These people are Catholics, but they put themselves outside the Catholic Church. It is the same with those who oppose the Archbishop of Guam.

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    5. Dear Anonymous at 8:43 p.m.,

      You can call it a judgement if you want, but I have the Catechism to back me up. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

      CCC 1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, holding them in respect and affection. Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.

      Yes, I know you want the Archbishop to hear you. From what I read in Junglewatch, it appears that you also want the Archbishop to follow you and meet your every demand.

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    6. "Obey and Submit" I can only imagine the victims of Church sexual abuse who were fed this line also and silenced with guilt because they didn't want to be the "other sheep".

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    7. Dear Catholic United,

      This is where you do not understand Catholic teachings at all. I quoted you the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says to obey, submit, and respect your Church leaders. From your statement, I see that you have problems with the Catechism I cited because you brought up the sexual abuse.

      Catholic United, did you not know that the Church ALSO teaches to obey God rather than men if man were to go against the moral order??????? The moral order has to do with the Ten Commandments. So, for example, if a priest tells you to commit suicide, Church teachings does say that you do not need to obey the priest who says that because suicide is murder. If a priest tells you to have sex with him, you do not need to obey because fornication is a sin. Perhaps, if more Catholics were more knowledgeable of their Catholic doctrines, they would understand better what to do. They would understand that anything that goes against the moral order of the Church does not need to be obeyed. The Catholic Church teaches that individuals should not act against their moral conscience.

      CCC 1713 Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him "to do what is good and avoid what is evil" (cf. GS 16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.

      CCC 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." "We must obey God rather than men":

      When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.

      CCC 2256 Citizens are obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order. "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

      Delete
    8. It would be amazing to hear that i don't have a problem with your citation. You wrapped the CCC 1269 it into the all-obligatory request for unquestioning obedience because of our baptism and their (ordained) standing in the Church as a cap to tie off your earlier posts. In that you cite that those who don't follow, having obeyed and submitted, are outside of the Church. I submitted my proof against your argument by citing the Sex Scandal. And there is no difference in the heinousness of the matter.

      You cite now the references which give precedence to call to action all those questions that have been posed on this Archdiocese.






      Delete
    9. Dear Catholic United,

      Anyone who has been in the Jungle knows that it is much more than just asking questions to the Archbishop. They have no interest in being obedient to the Archbishop. Rather, they want the Archbishop to be obedient to them.

      Delete
  8. There must be something amiss with the movement/itinerary?

    If indeed everything is hunky dory, above board, on the level, beyond reproach; then why do we see the constant supplicating, the constant appeals, the constant reiteration of the statute this and the statute that?

    As you said, 160 posts on your own, yet there are still clouds of doubt because this is now post #161?, for you would have moved on to another subject already, but this defense and explaination of the validity of the particular practice of the Eucharist has so to speak reared it's ugly head again.

    if all the Popes endorsed then why did Kiko have to explain the entire process of the Way to Pope Francis all over again? Didn't this Pope know everything has been/is on the level, why did Kiko go on the defensive?

    Would it be too much to ask if one the responsibles or cathechists could post a video detailing the process of the Eucharist and it's conformity so there can be no more doubt and we can end this ballgame?

    If all is right and proper then there should be no problems with doing so? The Eucharist is public, as i understand the part of echoing is private, but certainly the functions as pertaining to the Sacrament would be nothing secret, or perhaps Catholics on the Move could film? Or would you invite us and inform us what we don't understand?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Catholic United,

      First of all, Kiko never explained the entire process of the Way to Pope Francis. There were malicious people who deliberately misconstrued and twisted what the Pope said on February 1st. Those who hate the Way purposely changed the 3 recommendations of Pope Francis to 3 "reprimands" or 3 "rebukes". By doing so, some of the bishops and priests who used to hold the Way's celebration ended up cancelling the celebrations. Kiko then wrote to the Pope about that, and the Pope wrote back to Kiko saying that he backs and supports the Way's liturgy just as it was reported in Zenit. As a result, those parishes then opened up the Way's celebration.

      The video was already published in Youtube in Junglewatch as to how we receive Holy Communion. Also, anyone is welcome to come to the Eucharist and see for themselves. The Eucharist is open to the public.

      Delete
    2. United there is an answer to your question; GO TO THE CATHECHISIST AND EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF. 20,000 PAGES you won't be able to absorb it. It's impossible!

      Delete
    3. Catholic United has just made a really great suggestion. Have COTM film the NCW Eucharist as they have done with the TLM. Jennifer Dulla, who has been active as a COTM reporter, could even provide an overview of what we will be seeing. Maybe someone from one of the NCW communities can work it out with COTM to do that!

      Even though there is a YouTube video of how the NCW receives Communion, it would be more meaningful to see a local community. Just as there are YouTube videos of the TLM, the local recording by COTM generated more discussion and interest. The same could happen if COTM records a local NCW Eucharist service. You have said there is nothing secret about your service, so let the cameras in and let them roll!

      Delete
    4. Dear Anonymous at 10:58 p.m.,

      As I said, the Eucharist is open to the public. The fact that the Eucharist is open to the public already shows that there is no secret. The fact that we have a facebook detailing how we receive Eucharist shows that it is not a secret. The Youtube video on how we receive Holy Communion also shows that it is not a secret.

      However, the Youtube video which shows how we receive Holy Communion is not enough for you....is it? Junglewatch already makes a mockery of that youtube video. So, you want the whole mass on tape so you can make MORE mockery of the Way?? Your REAL intention has nothing to do with exposing secrets because we ALREADY told you how we receive Holy Communion. Your real intention is to mock and humiliate.

      Delete
    5. I further would suggest COTM video the Mass and provide us explanations to clear the air. Or better, perhaps the Archdiocese, since it is obviously Pro-NCW could perform a Way Mass in the Cathedral so that there is room enough for all of us to witness.

      Delete
    6. Dear Catholic United,

      We have already provided you the explanations. You already know that we do not kneel during the Mass. You already know how we receive Holy Communion. The Mass is open to anyone, so it is not a secret.

      We are not going to have the Mass treated as a "freak show" to be put on display for you and your friends to mock. After all, you have already done that with the short video on Youtube. You are welcome to come to our Mass, and you can choose not to participate by not receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. After all, you are not going to be there for Christ anyway.

      Delete
    7. United - you have cruel intention not to clear the Air. If you would like to know, come to the catechisist instead of being in the sidelined with worthless comments. Your feeding off Jungle Watch and you keeping throwing stones that you have no idea how the NCW liturgy is.

      Gut feeling your interested.

      Delete
    8. Diana, this is Anonymous @ 10:58 pm again. Are you saying you can read my mind as you claim “Your real interest is to mock and humiliate”? Think again!

      Just so you know, I was scandalized by the posture of the presbyter in the video posted on JungleWatch. He was leaning back, holding up the Bread in his right hand and the microphone in his left hand as he gave the community the signal to consume. Is it unreasonable to expect more decorum on the part of the presbyter? That he should be seated more upright instead of leaning back into his chair?

      My suggestion of having COTM record one of the Eucharist services was to provide a better image of what your services are like since I thought there would be more reverence shown in the local communities. While you’ve told us how you receive Holy Communion, the video bore out the idiom that “actions speak louder than words.” That YouTube video really does leave a negative impression of how NCW communities treat what is supposed to be the Body of Christ, despite what you write.

      BUT if the presbyter in the video is typical of all NCW presbyters, then I withdraw my suggestion. I just hoped to have a better image of what you do.

      PS - As I pointed out, COTM has recorded a couple of TLMs. I thought that it would just be fair to provide equal airtime to the NCW Eucharist service.

      Delete
    9. Dear Anonymous at 10:58 p.m.,

      You were NOT the one scandalized because you were not in the video. You were one of those who mocked the video. You only saw negativity in the video because negativity was already in your heart. As I said, you already know how we receive the Body of Christ. You already saw the Youtube video......but it was not enough for you......was it? You enjoy mocking and humiliating people?

      Delete
    10. Instead of defending the itinerary with this idea the NCW turns themselves into a victim of something that didn't even happen. I thought "courage" is instilled in cathecumens? This is a classic psychological reaction, at least on Diana's part, of someone who is hiding.

      Luke 8:17....


      Delete
    11. Dear Catholic United,

      I have no idea what you saying.

      Delete
    12. Diana, I did not have to be "in the video" to be scandalized but if that is what you believe, then let me restate my reaction to "I was DISGUSTED by the posture of the presbyter …" I know what YOU say about how members of the NCW receive and consume Holy Communion but SEEING that particular video was worse than I imagined. No reverence toward the Body of Christ was shown. There are hundreds of YouTube videos of the TLMs; the same cannot be said of the NCW Eucharist service, so there is still an air of secrecy about your services.

      For some reason you are being incredibly uncharitable these days. If anyone is doing any "mocking and humiliating," I suggest you look in the mirror. I'm asking for a better example of your services and YOU MOCK ME.

      Delete
    13. Dear Anonymous at 12:38 p.m.,

      There are actually some Latin Traditional Catholics who mock the Novus Ordo Mass because they feel the same as you do. Some of them feel that the people who attend the Novus Ordo Mass are NOT showing reverence to our Lord. There are some who feel that receiving the Body of Christ on the tongue is the ONLY proper way to show reverence. Nevermind the fact that the Holy See already says that receiving the Body of Christ can also be taken by hand.

      YOU are like these people. YOU decide what you think is reverent and you want all people to follow your way. If you really want to see our Eucharist, all you have to do is attend it. What you see and experience with your own eyes should be sufficient.

      Again, as I said, the REAL reason you want to put our Eucharist on camera is because it is so much easier for you NOT to attend the Eucharist and just watch it on film, so you can mock it all you want without having anyone hearing you. If you were actually there in our Eucharist, it would restrain you from mocking us because we are around you.

      Delete
  9. "The bread that we break,
    is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
    Because the loaf of bread is one,
    we, though many, are one body,
    for we all partake of the one loaf."
    (1 Cor 10:16-17)

    Bernie

    ReplyDelete
  10. Tim Rohr just announced his book he wrote about his concocted Junglewatch garbage, including illegally obtained documents, letters and other materials. If you have ever written anything here on this blog or on the Junglewatch, then your words may have been stolen and distorted in this book in order to bring Tim Rohr fame and glory among his international ilks. Very dubious kind of fame and glory... I am sure there are serious copyright and defamation issues involved here. We truly need to pray for this self-destructive sheep, who still has the audacity to call himself a "good Catholic", going astray.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon 7:24,

      So have you read the book?

      Delete
    2. Watch out, be careful over there at insiders view. All you are doing is fine tuning the focus of who you are.

      Delete
    3. Dear Anonymous at 10:16 a.m.,

      If you will notice....Anonymous 7:24 am, said that we should pray for that self-destructive sheep. And he is correct. Praying for those who have gone astray is who we are.

      Delete
    4. Diana, Diana, stop posting that you are not Fr. Adrian ...."the lady doth protest too much". Just ignore it. They are not 100o/o sure. They are taunting you. You mentioned a couple of times. Enough already!

      Delete
    5. A SMILE to Anonymous 11:27 a.m. :-)

      Delete
    6. 11:37 best reply, Diana.

      Delete
    7. Anon 7:24 AM my dog just chewed up Quaker Rohr's book. Can you buy me a copy? = :-D

      Delete
    8. Anonymous 7:24 a.m. you are right about the book. But you forget something: the money! We read about the complaints at Junglewatch how much resources, time and efforts are invested in keeping Tim Rohr's blog afloat. Well, he just wants his money back with a nice sum of added profit! This is the whole point of his blog.

      The key word is investment, as Junglewatch is nothing else than a business endeavor trying to make its way into recognition by hard core anti-Neocatechumenal businesses, an international market place. Tim Rohr's book is exposing his reason of his activities and inordinate involvement: it is not for charity, not at all! His concern is anything but Fr. Paul's well-being. His concern is his own well-being and his own profit he wants to make on the expense of others by exploiting gullible people who will read his book!

      Delete
    9. Let Go and Let God! God will take care of things in his own time and in his own way! Why does it bother you all what Tim Rohr does? Why does it bother you all as to what anyone says? Can't people just let it in one ear and out the other?

      Diana has her views on the NCW. Tom Rohr has his own views. Both believe in what they do! Me, I am just a simple person trying to make the right choices!

      Delete
    10. Let Go and your point is????

      Delete
    11. I respect and obey the Archbishop ad Vicar of Christ. When someone redicule and insult your Father. You can't help sit back and say nothing. My question is to you. Why does it bother you so much? Hmmmm

      Delete
  11. One of your cheerleaders is on JW saying you are going to destroy Tim. Is that for real?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous at 1:04 p.m,

      Members of the NCW are taught that revenge is wrong. That is the same teaching of the Catholic Church. I am not going to destroy Tim.

      Delete
    2. Anon 1:04, even Tim admitted that was a fake comment... so why are you bringing it here??

      Delete
    3. Why did DI answer?

      Delete
    4. Dear Anonymous at 7:47 a.m.,

      The name is Diana, not DI. I answered because the question was asking me if I am going to destroy Tim. Whoever the anonymous cheerleader is, he/she is false.

      Delete
    5. Sorry, Di, won't happen again.

      Delete
    6. Dear Anonymous at 5:16 p.m.,

      That is okay. I really prefer that comments in the jungle stay in the jungle where it belongs. You will notice that I have not made any comments in the jungle.

      Delete
    7. Miss you over there, Diana!

      Delete

    8. Dear Diana,

      Why is it that Msgr. Juan Arrieta's comments re posture in your article are not in compliance with the heart and mindset of saints and popes in the article obtained by googling " Flowave - kneeling, the right posture for adoration at Mass.....?" This troubles me greatly - and so should it trouble Kiko who is the initiator of eliminating kneeling at Christ's Sacrifice of the Mass. And, rightfully, it should trouble every member of the neocatechumenal way.

      In regards to the backing of the NCW Mass by various bishops, I would like to bring to your attention #883 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which says:
      "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."





      Delete
    9. Dear Anonymous at 5:44 p.m.,

      It is because he is addressing two different groups of people. If he was addressing the Eastern Catholics (who do not kneel), do you think he is going to say that they should kneel?

      Delete
    10. Dear Diane,
      Why don't I find my non-bashing argument against the NCW's Mass not being approved, posted?
      Just a reminder - the NCW is not a different RITE - it's the Roman Rite " bound " by the Roman Missal/GIRM. Kiko apparently refused to be a different rite.
      As for Eastern Catholics not kneeling - I've been to several of their Masses and we kneel. Someone I know goes to one of their churches and they prostrate themselves during the Eucharistic Prayer.
      Still praying that all may be one.

      Delete
    11. Dear Anonymous at 5:44 a.m.,

      For your information, there are Eastern Catholics who do NOT kneel. See the weblink below:

      http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/one-holy-catholic-and-apostolic-church_26.html

      Delete

    12. Dear Diane,
      Ezekiel 1:22—2:2
      When Ezekiel caught a glimpse of “the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD,” he “fell facedown” (v. 28). This is a typical response of those in the Bible who encounter the presence of God. John gives us a similar scene in Revelation 4. John describes God’s throne surrounded by 24 lesser thrones, an elder is seated on each one. Four living creatures continually cry out in the heavenly liturgy “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come” (Revelation 4:8). The elders in response fall down and lay their crowns before the throne (v. 10). They then begin to proclaim God worthy “to receive glory and honor and praise” (v. 11).
      Phil:2:10
      ...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

      If at the name of Jesus, we should kneel, how much more in adoration should we do when we behold our Lord at Mass - True Presence.
      signed,
      a NCW wannabe, but can't - because I feel their Mass is not in compliance with the Roman Missal and the GIRM - not in compliance with the wishes of the Pope, but in compliance with the wishes of Kiko.

      Delete
    13. Dear Anonymous at 9:54 pm,

      I just gave you evidence showing that the Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine rite do NOT kneel, and this was APPROVED by the Catholic Church. Are you going to tell me that the Catholic Church is wrong because YOU know much more than the Church? Now, do you understand the reason why I did not publish your comments??

      You have nothing to say about the Rite of most Eastern Catholics who are in communion with the Pope, and who practiced one of the oldest liturgies of the Catholic Church. I pointed out to you that they do not kneel......and this is approved by Rome, and you have nothing to say about that. Instead, you dismiss what I say and talk about the Book of Revelation??? First, figure why the Vatican had no problem with the Eastern Catholic NOT kneeling.

      Delete
    14. Also, for your information, the Japanese Catholics do NOT kneel, and they follow the Roman rite. The Vatican gave them permission not to kneel but to stand. In Japanese culture, kneeling is the same as sitting, which the Japanese find disrespectful.

      Delete
    15. Dear Diane,
      The eastern catholics may not kneel, but they express their adoration and awe of our Lord by not handling the Eucharist - Communion in directly into their mouths.

      Delete
    16. Dear Anonymous at 1:03 p.m.,

      And you think that we do not express adoration and awe of our Lord??

      Delete