Here of course we see not only why the Neo eschews the idea of celebrating the Mass on a consecrated altar, which the Catechism says is the symbol of Christ himself (CCC 1383), but abandons the church building altogether, in direct contradiction to Canon Law of course:In addition to criticizing the NCW, Rohr has also criticized the regular parish Masses. According to Tim Rohr:
Can. 932 §1. The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in a sacred place unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise; in such a case the celebration must be done in a decent place. §2. The eucharistic sacrifice must be carried out on a dedicated or blessed altar...The Code goes on to direct how the "eucharistic sacrifice" is to be offered when not offered on a dedicated or blessed altar, but of course the condition of when "necessity requires" has already been established.
1. Change your “altar” to a mere table
Since the 60's we've been hearing "the table of the Lord" instead of "the altar of God." Long ago, and before Kiko, we moved away from the High Altar atop "the three steps" to a table-looking thing that has edged ever closer to the people (and thus a "dinner" table and NOT an "altar") with some churches actually placing the "table" in the center (Santa Barbara) or almost in the center (St. Jude). And these churches are the among the most anti-neo.However, a friend emailed me a screenshot from Rohr's facebook page. It showed Tim Rohr having Mass on his kitchen table. Rohr accommodated a priest in his home, and they celebrated Mass on his kitchen table. See the screenshot below:
So, to the junglefolks, this is who your leader is. He pointed his finger at the NCW, telling them that they are wrong in having their Mass in their private homes instead of before a consecrated altar. Yet, it is okay for Rohr to have Mass in his private home on his kitchen table. He criticized the parish Masses of St. Jude Catholic Church and Santa Barbara Catholic Church by accusing these churches of having their Mass on a table rather than on a consecrated altar. Yet, it is okay for Rohr to have Mass in his private home on his kitchen table. What do you have to say about your leader now?
Classic "Do as I say, not as I do."
ReplyDeleteI had commented a few times on a jungle watch post made by frenchie simply pointing out the hypocrisy and negativity I see on the blog.3 sentences,and with those 3 not only did frenchie respond with whole long paragraph but assumed that I did not own a bible,and that I was uncomfortable.I responded with a correction saying that I did in fact have a bible and that I wasn't uncomfortable and that frenchie's assumptions towards me said a lot more about Frenchie than me.In the comment I gave a small lecture talking about how vengeance wasn't the way of Christ and that maybe jungle watch should learn to love their enemies.I ended it off with "I'll be praying for you".What did Frenchie do? Censored me.Frenchie did not post this last comment I made because it would clearly make jungle watch look bad.So yes this double standard is shown a lot.Since others won't be seeing what happened on JW I decided to share about it here.
ReplyDelete-
---Also a note to those who were calling JW folks idiots on their blog:Please do not do that as they will just use it against us.We are not going to win by insulting them.We are going to do it by pointing our their hypocrisy.----
Much love
-Fox
@9:37pm....who is he to say? Also don't want to do as he does....
ReplyDeleteClassic way to condemn one self if you follow tim....unless a big conversion happens with him and his testimony on finding God's love for him is sincere..
There are better people to follow and you will know thier sincerety for one's soul...
God gives me a conscience...
I hope that eucharist chased the demons away from his home that prawls around there....
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out that not only is he celebrating on the kitchen table, but that said table is a MESS. And so is the room. Canon law says that exceptions are allowed provided the table is suitable. A place where the Eucharist is celebrated with reverence and dignity. THAT room and table do neither.
ReplyDeletearen't priests recommended to say mass at least once a day Canon 904....so they need to do it wherever possible, as long as they are not in the state of grave sin. this is not a mass for the community.....but his duty as priest..
ReplyDeleteDear Superales,
DeleteSection 2 of Canon 904 says that a priest can say Mass more than once a day if there is a shortage of priests. But what has that got to do with the OP? Please stick to the OP.
Can. 904 Remembering always that in the mystery of the eucharistic Sacrifice the work of redemption is continually being carried out, priests are to celebrate frequently. Indeed, daily celebration is earnestly recommended, because, even if it should not be possible to have the faithful present, it is an action of Christ and of the Church in which priests fulfill their principal role.
Deleteyour reply above refers to canon 905
DeleteCan. 905 §1 Apart from those cases in which the law allows him to celebrate or concelebrate the Eucharist a number of times on the same day, a priest may not celebrate more than once a day.
§2 If there is a scarcity of priests, the local Ordinary may for a good reason allow priests to celebrate twice in one day or even, if pastoral need requires it, three times on Sundays or holydays of obligation.
Dear Superales,
DeleteAgain, what has that have to do with the OP?
Rr:AnonymousJune 23, 2018 at 6:39 AM
ReplyDeleteJunglewatch does not have the monopoly on Censorship. Over the years
I have been censored on Diana's Blog many times, enabling Diana to perpetuate her views as true. I do not belong to the Junglewatch, or any group defending it - but am an onlooker from another country usually with information and sometimes views that the Neocatechumenal Way Community does not like - hence censored, and/or assumed pro-junglewatch. Truth hurts, but it will set one free.
Dear Anonymous at 4:21 pm,
DeleteI see that you only have negative things to say about the NCW. Did you not read the OP? This is one reason why I use censorship because you obviously ignore the OP. You say you do not belong to the jungle. Nevertheless, you are definitely anti-Neo.
I pointed out Rohr's hypocrisy. Do you not have anything to say about a man who constantly ridiculed and judged the NCW for holding Mass in their homes and then turn around and hold Mass in his home at his kitchen table????? Why did you ignore that truth???? You ignore this truth of the anti-Neo jungle simply because you are anti-Neo yourself. You are from the same tree. The truth hurts, but it will set you free.
Rohr charitably opened his home to this unexpected guest (priest- inpersona Christi) - in the early morning hour. I would not like to judge Rohr on his housekeeping, neither would I like to judge the priest who wanted to celebrate Mass irregardless of his surroundings. Many priests have said Mass in worse conditions. Yes, God deserves the best, but if that is not possible.....
ReplyDeleteThis is what makes Rohr's table different from the NCW's table.
Just wondering.....will I be censored?
Dear Anonymous at 4:49 pm,
DeleteYou wrote: "I would not like to judge Rohr on his housekeeping,..."
Please tell that to Rohr. He was the one who judged the NCW first when we had Mass in our homes. I only pointed out his hypocrisy.
Furthermore, unlike the Christians in the Middle East whose churches and homes are being destroyed, Rohr is capable of providing better surroundings. If he were to have Mass in his home, he should start by cleaning up the clutter in the room. The priest is not at fault for the MESS in the house.
After all, when we had the Mass in our home, all the living room furniture were taken out. And the floors were mopped, and the table cloths were ironed.
Diana, from Rohr's entry - the priest unexpectedly needed a place for the night and Rohr found himself at 4 am in the morning saying "yes." Should he have said "no" - my place is a mess (because of all that is going on in my life) to the priest/Jesus? Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto Me.
ReplyDeleteThis as I mentioned, is quite different from the Neocatechumenal Way which has time to make things "nice and proper according to the approved Liturgical Books."
And no Diana, I have no desire to badmouth the NCW - as the Popes have all said the NCW do a good job evangelizing, mission word, etc. The problem lies in although there is much to commend about the Way, that does NOT make the way they celebrate the Mass the will of God. If you look to Revelation, which Pope Benedict XVI refers to in his book "Spirit of the Liturgy" you will see the truth. (Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.)
And, I have many friends who are in the NCW. I certainly do not hate them.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:33 pm,
You have many friends in the Way and you do not hate them. But you hate the “Way” itself because you failed to understand the OP. This is about Rohr’s hypocrisy.
You wrote: “Should he have said “no” - my place is a mess to the priest?”
If Rohr truly believed that the Mass should be in front of a consecrated altar rather than a table (as he ALWAYS claimed), naturally he would have told the priest no. After all, look at how many priests he criticized who disagreed with him: Father Jeff, Father Paul, etc. But you know what he did instead? He changed his story, and this is not the first time he has done that. Rohr would say that Mass should only be in front of a consecrated altar unless you are persecuted like in the Middle East where there are few altars due to the many church bombings. He tells everyone that one thing, then turns around and suddenly we see a priest celebrating Mass in his private home at his kitchen table. You find excuses for Rohr’s hypocrisy because you are anti-Neo.
FYI- st judes church table is no longer in the center and has returned to the high altar/sanctuary. Been that way since September. The baptismal immersion font was also removed.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:55 am,
DeleteSo??? Why tell me? Tell it to the one who had a problem with it in the first place and then ask him when he started changing his mind about having Mass at his kitchen table.
The way I see it is that we ALL make mistakes and need correction in our lives. Rohr, the NCW, you, me, etc....
ReplyDeleteThe humble person will admit they are wrong, and the proud person won't - they'll continue to make excuses for their actions.
Peace.
RE: You have many friends in the Way and you do not hate them. But you hate the “Way” itself because you failed to understand the OP. This is about Rohr’s hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteHuh? I hate the Way because I failed to understand the OP????
Naught! I do not hate the Way. Just because I don't hate Rohr's actions, does not make me anti-NCW. Personally, I believe both Rohr and the NCW can and should improve. Personally, I believe we ALL can and should improve.
We are supposed to be One in Christ
Dear Anonymous at 7:38 am,
DeleteThen why not go to the other blog and tell them to improve? Why only come here in this blog? Go ahead and tell Rohr to improve the Mass at his kitchen table. Better yet, ask him why he suddenly changed his belief about having Mass at a kitchen table.
Anon @ 7:38 AM
ReplyDeleteIf you think we can all improve then don't come here to tell us that.Tell Rohr that.You don't have to hate Rohr's actions,you just have to see the hypocrisy.If Rohr could break through his pride and admit his wrongdoings we wouldn't hate him for it.The problem is he does not admit it.I agree with you that we are all one with christ.But comimg over here to complain about the way we celebrate mass is not going to help you or us.The person who truly needs help right now is Rohr.He is a brother too.You want peace? Go help Rohr.For the person he is hurting the most right now.
Is himself.
-Fox
Let me address this OP...
ReplyDeleteIs it wrong for a priest to celebrate mass? No, but lets look at the picture closely.
The priest, when on vacation should celebrate mass once a day but privately (meaning for himself). Was Tim present during this Mass? We see that the mass was celebrated on Tim's kitchen table. Because Tim is a member of the Archdiocese of Agana, did this priest get permission to say mass in the home of Tim Rohr or because the residence fall under the parish of Mount Carmel, did the priest get permission to say mass for Tim which is under the Mount Carmel parish jurisdiction?
I believe that there was no permission asked or given. If the priest is saying mass for himself then he is allowed to. But if the priest is saying mass and a member of the church is in attendance, then permission must be granted prior to the mass. In this case, I don't think there was one.
It was nice that Tim's friend called him to take in a priest. But who called Tim? Who asked Tim to take in this priest? Looking at the picture, how was this priest able to carry all that is needed for the mass? Yes, there is a mass kit, but did Tim provide the sacred vessels for the mass? Did Tim provide the bread, wine and other equipment needed? If so, how does he have them? If, not then who provided them with the materials for mass. I think that Priests would bring an alb and a stole for mass. But some bring their kit. It looks like some of these materials were provided by the caller or someone who buys these (fiddleback chasuble) equipment.
your thoughts
Dear Guamboy,
DeleteIn my opinion, I believe that God sent this priest to Rohr’s home so Mass can be celebrated in his home. From his message on the Facebook page, it appeared that Rohr felt happy and blessed that Mass was said in his private home. God had opened Rohr’s heart at that moment so that Mass can be conducted in his home. Rohr had only experienced a little bit of how the Early Christians celebrated in the home.......something which the NCW follows. And in just that one experience, he found a little joy.
Had he cleaned up the clutter in the room and had more participants in his home, then he can come to realize the exhilaration we felt when the NCW had Mass in the home. In that morning when he had Mass in his home, God was trying to tell Tim something.
The least tim could have done is clear the clutter, clean the mess to have dignity for the mass.... i believe the way does that as part of setting up for mass....it is stressed......
ReplyDeleteBut yes, i see the hypocracy....
Mt 7:1-5
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot of unanswered questions that makes it impossible for any one of us to judge Rohr and/or the Priest, don't you think?? Come to think of it, we shouldn't be judging Rohr and/or the Priest, should we.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 2:10 pm,
DeleteThere is no judgment here. I am simply stating the facts....the truth. These are the FACTS:
1. Tim Rohr stated that the NCW should and must have the Mass before a consecrated altar inside the church and not before a makeshift table outside the Church.
2. Tim Rohr accused St. Jude and Santa Barbara Catholic Church of having Mass at a table instead of a consecrated altar.
3. Tim Rohr preached that a Mass should be held before a consecrated altar and not on a table.
4. On May 30, 2018, Tim Rohr held Mass in his private home at his kitchen table.
Therefore, Tim Rohr does not practice what he preached. Is this not hypocrisy?
1 Cor. 5:12. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
DeleteWe can judge our brothers and sisters in a way to correct their mistakes. In order for the truth to be revealed, facts need to come out even if it indicates that the brother is a hypocrite. This is also so the brother can be corrected and rid himself of hypocrisy.
When circumstances prevent us from celebrating on a proper Altar, do we forego being able to receive the gift of His Body and Blood?
ReplyDeleteGod deserves the best, but when this is not possible....
This is what makes Rohr's table different from the NCW's table. The NCW knows ahead of time that there will be a Saturday Mass. They also have the time to prepare for this "expected" Mass.
Hence, there is no hypocrisy on the part of Rohr. The NCW's condemnation for him in this regard is unjust.
Again, I am not a NCW hater, nor am I pro-Junglewatch.
Dear Anonymous at 12:31 pm,
DeleteThe FACT that Rohr had always declared that Mass be held in front of a consecrated altar is what makes it a hypocrisy, regardless of whether the room was clean or not.
The NCW, on the other hand, believes that it does not matter where one has Mass, whether it is before a consecrated altar or not.
If you are not an NCW hater, then why make excuses for Rohr's hypocrisy??? Did you not read the OP?
Must be slow news days this past week. With all the comments about celebrating the Eucharist on a consecreted altar. I think this has been beaten to death already.
DeleteThe 4 Guam seminarians attending the St Patrick Seminary sure got a lot of newsprint space in the Umatuna Si Yu'os paper over the weekend. Don't think the RMS seminarians got this much attention in the paper. Let's include these 4 local seminarians in our prayers that they receive fruitful formation. And then at the proper time be ordained as priests of our Archdiocese of Agana.
Dear Anonymous at 1:44 pm,
DeleteI apologize for the slow week. I'm not always on the Internet, but I try to blog every now and then. My blog on Catholicism is even slower. I have neglected it and I would need to go back to it soon.
Yes, I saw the Umatuna on the four Guam seminarians. It is unfortunate that our RMS seminarians did not get any attention at all, but perhaps it is because they were already rejected by the Archdiocese of Agana and will go on to become priests for other Dioceses.
Diana, just because you did it once or twice doesn't mean it is the norm for the rest of your life.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:05 am,
DeletePlease choose a username. Also, please read the following weblink on what is now the norm:
https://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/03/regarding-kneeling.html?m=0
Dear Anon @12:31 PM,
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight,trying to help Rohr with his hypocrisy is unjust? It is clear you haven't been listening at all.I tell you to go help Rohr and instead you come back here to complain about the way we celebrate mass once again and then you say that we are being unjust to Rohr.We are stating facts.Why? To help Rohr. You still do not see it because you are biased.How is it that you say we are unjust for trying to help this man.But you haven't said one peep about what he has done to us. This man has been hurting our people and he is hurting himself.Which is why pointing out his hypocrisy is the first step to help him and us.
If you still do not see it.
Then leave us alone Satan.
I'll be praying for you AND Rohr
-Fox
Censored again.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 3:57 pm,
DeleteI repeat....I will not publish any jungle propaganda on this blog. You can always go to the other blog for that.
Why do you censor what St. John Paul II said? Why do you censor what Pope Benedict XVI said? Why do you censor what Pope Francis said? You've censored the Popes and have given the podium to Kiko.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 2:03 pm,
DeleteI did not censor the words of the Popes. I censored YOU because you twisted their words to fit your agenda.
Which words of the Popes did I twist?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 1:56 pm,
DeleteYou applied your own interpretation and took it out of context. Also, can you create a username?
I said many things. What exactly are you calling twisted?
Delete"An Aid" will be my user name
DeleteDear An Aid,
All you do is quote the popes at us and twist them simply to tell us that the NCW is abusing the Liturgy. We have heard it before. The NCW is 52 years old. If we are in violation of anything, Kiko would have been disciplined. But he was not. He was given awards. Furthermore, we follow the Archbishop, not you. When Apuron was in charge, we followed him. Now that Byrnes is in charge, he instructed us to have the Eucharist inside the church building, so we obeyed. So, what is your problem? Did you think the NCW will follow you?
Furthermore, read the OP. It is about Rohr’s hypocrisy.
The Neocatechumenal Way communities continue with their way of conversion. Celebrations of the Word, Celebrations of the Eucharist, Convivences, Lauds, Vespers, Youth Scrutacio, Pilgrimages, etc. We celebrate where our Bishop and Pastors allow us to. Evangelization still occurs as curious people participate in our Celebration of the Eucharist, or youth attending the Youth Scrutacio.
ReplyDeleteWhere are the CCOG and LFM now? How have they nurtured the Catholic faith of their followers? What was their purpose? To be the foot soldiers of the evil one in sowing hate and division in our Catholic Church in Guam? What are their fruits? What are the Jungle's fruits?