A vocation is a calling from God. It is a calling to holiness regardless of whether one is married, single, living a consecrated life, or ordained into the priesthood. We all have a vocation. We all have a calling from God. And we are all called to live a life of holiness. God said, "Be holy for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16).
There are four vocations in the Catholic Church: a married life, a single life, a consecrated life, and the life of an ordained priest.
Married couples are to live a Christian marriage and open to life. They are to put Christ in the center of their marriage and live a life of faithful vow to their spouse. Husbands and wives share a self-giving, love-giving, and life-giving relationship with each other and are committed to helping their spouse grow into Christian maturity. They are also open to life.
Those who are single are also called by God to holiness. A single person comes to believe that remaining single is the true and right way to faithfully live his or her baptismal call by embracing the gift of celibacy while living alone, with family members or with others who are also single. They are able to devote more time and energy in service of the Church in various ways. In the Way, some of these single folks become itinerants, spreading the Good News throughout the world.
Some have been called to live a consecrated life. Religious priests, brothers and sisters (nuns) are called to serve in areas such as education, health care, parish, youth ministry, aged care, pastoral ministry, social work, or even missionaries.
Those who are called by God to be ordained priests are also called to live a life of holiness. These are the vocations in the Catholic Church. Each vocation is a calling from God to live a life of holiness.
All members of the Way have a Catechist, who act as their spiritual director. It is in our walk that we strive to answer God's call to holiness. It is in our spiritual walk in the Way that we strive to live out the vocation that we all have been called for by God. To live a life of holiness so that we truly become sons and daughters of God. In each vocation, the person lives a life of faith and prayer to continually grow closer in a relationship with God. Each vocation is equal in the sense that no vocation is better or less than any other. Because God calls you to a particular vocation - whether marriage, priesthood, religious life, or single life - that vocation is the best one for you.
The Neocatechumenal Way has inspired many vocations. Some have chosen marriage and a family. However, some of these married couples have also chosen to become mission families, serving the church as a family in mission. Some girls in our communities have also been inspired to join the monastery while young boys were inspired to become priests. Some of the single members have also chosen to live a life as an itinerant, doing mission work.
Ray Cepeda RIP.
ReplyDeleteMay he rest in peace.
Dear Anonymous at 6:55 pm,
DeleteRay Cepeda, the former priest, passed away? When did that happen? Was it today?
yes. Today this afternoon.
ReplyDeleteGod grants His mercy and grace to those who put their trust in Jesus Christ. God's mercy grace open to all.Pray repose of his soul.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana, being single or married is more about marital status than about vocation. Most Catholics do not commit to consecrated life in a monastery or convent and do not become priests. All these people have a "civil" life, apart from the church, that they nevertheless would try to infuse with their religious belief. In my civil life I try to live according to the Gospels. My intention would not depend on my marital status.
ReplyDeleteIn our lives we follow our vocation according to our profession. We are given capacities, capabilities and talents to fulfill a vocation aiming for better life for everyone in our society. We might be teachers, doctors, nurses, engineers, construction workers, etc., whatever expresses our best potentials. In our jobs, of course, we should be led by Christian values.
The Catholic teaching urges us to bring appropriate remedies to institutions and living conditions in our society. We should work for justice and to advance the good for the benefit of all. It is much more than just following the conditions of our marital status. It is a true vocation in civil life to make improvements according to the gifts lavishly given to us by God.
CCC states:
1879 The human person needs to live in society. Society is not for him an extraneous addition but a requirement of his nature. Through the exchange with others, mutual service and dialogue with his brethren, man develops his potential; he thus responds to his vocation.
1888 It is necessary, then, to appeal to the spiritual and moral capacities of the human person and to the permanent need for his inner conversion, so as to obtain social changes that will really serve him. The acknowledged priority of the conversion of heart in no way eliminates but on the contrary imposes the obligation of bringing the appropriate remedies to institutions and living conditions when they are an inducement to sin, so that they conform to the norms of justice and advance the good rather than hinder it.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteWhen a person is called to holiness in their vocation, everything else falls into place in making society a better place.
When a person is called to holiness lives a holy life society transformed for greater glory of God.
DeleteDear Diana, as you posted, all of us are called to holiness. You also stated that this call does not depend on marital status. This is true. It does not matter if we are married or not, as you pointed out.
DeleteWhat is the challenge is that we as sinners should engage in a process of spiritual betterment guided by the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. This is what Christians do in any of their denominations. There is only one holiness which is the divine nature demonstrated in Jesus. When we follow Him, we may share in His divine nature by overcoming our sins. We have to walk away from our sinfulness and overcome our disposition and inclination infused into us by the original sin.
The good news is that it is possible! The holy saints of the Catholic Church demonstrated that sin can be overcome by a life dedicated to Jesus. Mother Teresa had never said she was holy. On the contrary, she said we are all sinners. However, we know that she lived a holy life. This was acknowledged in the church by her canonization to sainthood.
If our vocation in the civil life is to live as a Catholic professional, as teacher, doctor, nurse, engineer, construction worker, etc. performing our jobs with our best abilities, then we advance the cause of holiness on Earth. Holiness is an opportunity to walk toward by those who are spiritually determined and strong enough to overcome sinful nature. It is only possible through Jesus.
This is why our only true "spiritual director" is Jesus. We may choose other advisors to follow and listen to in one or other questions but only as far as these advisors are able to express what is coming from Jesus. What is coming from Jesus is best expressed by the Gospels and the teaching of the Catholic Church. Catechists in the Way should grow up to this noble challenge when they are talking about holiness as a vocation.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteI do not think one would need the Church to become a better doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, engineer, etc. One can achieve that using the skills, intellect, and talent that God had already endowed us with. Being the best doctor does not necessarily determine their holiness. It is only through the grace of God that we can live a holy life. After all, even a homeless man with no job can become a saint.
Diana, do you really think we can live a holy life? I have serious doubt. We are predisposed and inclined to sin by the fallen nature of man. We are sinners. How can we live a holy life without walking away from and overcoming sin? Holy life is not possible without Jesus, without His teaching brought to us by the Gospels and the church. The community of Jesus is the church, therefore as much as we need Jesus, we also need the church with its legitimate leaders.
DeleteThe holy saints of the Catholic Church assure us that sins can be overcome! We can walk away from sin and toward a holier life. Most of us would never become a holy saint though. But we can turn the world into a better place for all, following Jesus in our civil life as best as we can.
Positive social change is the key to overcome poverty, hopelessness, addiction and crime, the sins of our modern society.
Our life is enfolding on big screen of the society. The church is only a part on this screen. The poor, the hungry, the orphan and the widow, all those who need our compassion and caring, are not only in the society at large! Good Christian professionals cannot work without them in mind. Helping them with a social program of compassion and care would not make you holy instantly, but would definitely improve the life quality of many.
Christian values, when in our hearts, are shining through daily routines and acts. Being a dedicated doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. is not for the benefit of the church only, but for the benefit of the whole society. Whoever has encounter with us as good and caring professional, should also experience the love we have received from Jesus. This is what we are called for. This is our vocation.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteYou asked if we can live a holy life? The answer is yes. You even said so yourself. The holy saints such as St. Mother Teresa and St. Pope John Paul II are a testimony of that. It is only with God that we can live a virtuous life because with God all things are possible. On your own, it is impossible. It is only with God that it becomes possible.
You stated: "Being a dedicated doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. is not for the benefit of the church only, but for the benefit of the whole society."
But what if the person is homeless and has no job? I remember the homily of an RMS priest. He said that an emperor asked the pope to give him all the treasures of the Church. The Pope went and did what the emperor asked of him. He brought all the poor and the homeless and told the emperor that these are the treasures of the Church. God never asked us to be successful in our profession. Instead, he asked us to be faithful to Him.
You will always have poverty, crime, and addiction no matter how good a doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher, nurse, etc. Mother Teresa dedicated her life to serving the poor, and poverty still exist. Jesus said, "you will always have the poor, but you will not always have me". (John 12:8). In other words, you cannot overcome poverty because you will always have the poor. But sin can be overcome through Christ.
Dear Diana, you did not answer the question. Human and divine nature are in conflict. A sinner cannot share in divine nature, cannot be holy. The idea of a "holy sinner" poses a logical contradiction. Of course, "everything is possible with God", but this refers to God's infinite potential only and not to God's ability to resolve or gloss over a logical contradiction.
DeleteThe fact is we don't remain sinners when we turn to Jesus for help. We can overcome original sin, our human nature. Despite oversimplified statements about our hopeless sinfulness, overcoming sin is the only way that might guide us to holiness.
When our catechists tell us that we are sinners forever, they might not think about our potential for holiness through Jesus. Qualifications are badly needed for people who want to direct and not mislead others. Therefore, our only true spiritual director cannot be anyone else, but Jesus.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteYou stated: “We can overcome original sin, our human nature.”
Original sin is a sin committed by Adam and Eve. All of us were born with Original Sin. The Original Sin was removed when we were baptized. After baptism, you cannot get the Original Sin. But you can commit personal sins. Personal sins are sins you committed.
The consequence of original sin is our predisposition and inclination to sin as human beings. Jesus made it possible for us to overcome sin, including our personal sins. In what sense do you think we are sinners if not by human nature?
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteThe statement “we can overcome original sin” is Pelagian.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteWe are sinners because we have free will. We can chose to sin or choose God. What exactly in my post above do you disagree with?
Dear Anon, I am sorry, I should have said we can overcome the consequences of original sin, as it is clear from the context. I don't know what Pelagian is.
DeleteDear Diana, I disagree with a misplaced overemphasis on the sinfulness on man as taught by our catechists in NCW. You cannot blow cold and hot from the same mouth. If we are sinners then we cannot be holy. If we are holy then we cannot be sinners. How can you talk about holiness as vocation when you also say we are sinners? You don't seem to acknowledge the contradiction.
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteAre you a sinner?
Dear Diana, I have the potential to overcome sin by Jesus. Look at the holy saints of the Catholic Church. They did it! Most of us won't ever be holy saints. But we all have the potential God gave us.
DeleteThe reason I am a sinner is not because I have free will. Free will is not sin! Free will belongs to the quality of life as part of the creation. I commit sin when I act against the Ten Commandments. By confessing at the Holy Sacrament of Penance, I walk away from sin and get absolution. Jesus gave us the Holy Sacrament of Penance to reconcile us with Him and with his Father in heaven.
In Matt 22:37-38 Jesus tells us: "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment." Loving God with all you mind means you make intellectual effort to reconcile conflicts and contradictions in what you teach about God, faith and salvation. I don't see this effort in our catechists. In particular, you don't even acknowledge the contradiction between being a sinner and living a holy life.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteI did not ask you if you have the potential to overcome sin by Jesus. I asked you if you are a sinner. That requires a simple yes or no answer. So, why all this talk???? Have you finally reached your potential of holiness that you cannot answer a simple yes or no question?
Furthermore, I never said that vocations are holy. I said that a vocation is a calling to be holy. Name me one saint who declared himself/herself holy and no longer a sinner.
There is no contradiction between being a sinner and being holy. Any saint will say he is a sinner. Read st. Teresa of Avila. Is she lying when she begins her autobiography by saying she is a great sinner? She says that the closer you come to God, the more you se how much a sinner you are.
DeleteA pelagian is someone who follows the teaching of Pelagius. St. Augustine, who also called himself a great sinner, wrote against the pelagian heresy that fundamentally states that we can choose to do good and overcome evil with our own efforts and good will. St. Augustine says we cannot. St. James also says it in his letter. He does not say do good and God is with you, he says the proof that God is with you is that you do good works. In other words, you can lead a moral life and not be a saint and yet you can be a great sinner and be a saint. Fr. Damian, Francis Xavier, st. Jerome all had fierce tempers. They are all saints. The proof that you are a saint is not that you do not sin. So much so that causes for canonization do not ask if the person was sinless. If you say you are not a sinner you make Christ a lier says St. John. So who is holy? He who has the spirit of Christ risen says St. Paul. Either you got it or you don’t. You can’t manufacture holiness. What is the proof that you have the spirit of Christ? Virtue without effort says St. John chrysostomus. Loving your enemy says St. John. Nowhere does it say being a good person or being sinless. And FYI the idea that the world is split between sinners and non is another heresy called Manichaeism.
Diana, you are not my confessor. You are not even a priest. You seem to follow the catechists' tactic of personalizing theological content. Would not it be better to clarify first what is the the teaching?
DeleteIf you don't acknowledge contradiction, it is not my fault. Perhaps, you don't have an answer. Mother Teresa is not a holy saint because she said so. She is because the church said so!
You denounced free will as a cause of sinfulness. This is not a Catholic view. Free will can be pious or zealous just as well as sinful. Mother Teresa by free will lived a holy life and she was canonized by the Catholic Church.
Dear Anonymous at 11:34 am,
DeleteI agree. None of the saints ever declared themselves to be holy. They always said they are sinners despite that they lead virtuous lives.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteI never denounced free will as a cause of sinfulness. This is what I stated about sin:
“We are sinners because we have free will. We can choose to sin or choose God. “
You, on the other hand, stated this:
“We can overcome Original Sin, our human nature.”
Mother Teresa lived a holy life through the grace of God. She did not do it on her own. She had the free will to choose God, but it was God’s grace that made it possible for her to live a virtuous life. She could not do it on her own. The catechists are correct when they say that they are sinners. I am also a sinner. But you cannot say that you are a sinner.
Dear Zoltan,
Delete“Free will can be pious or zealous or sinful” is Pelagian thought not Catholic.
Also saying we can choose sin or choose God is pelagian. We cannot choose God. What we can choose is to say no to God. Instead God can send us graces to help us listen to his voice and not harden our hearts. Which is why the attitude of the saints is to constantly ask God for help. And you can only ask for help if you know that you are a sinner and without God’s help all you can do is sin. Read St. Augustine.
DeleteYour are both arguing the same thing. Which is why your discussion is going nowhere and it will end up in hurt.
If you disagree with your catechist then talk to them Which is what Jesus and St. Paul say to do when you have a problem with someone. Not splash it on the internet.
Dear Anonymous at 2:23 pm,
DeleteWhen I say we can choose to sin or choose God, I meant that we can choose to follow sin or choose to follow God. We can choose death or life. The choice is ours to make. Sin is death and God is life. God is not going to force his grace on us without our “yes”.
“Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:"
before man can choose good there is grace. you are getting nowhere with Zoltan because you are arguing the same thing! you are both saying that man has free will to choose good or to choose evil. St. Augustine wrote 2 letters against this! Zoltan is saying will can be good or bad and he can choose freely, you are saying the same thing. go read st. Augustine. I don't know why I bother even jumping into the discussion except that if you two were correct then you would be negating the resurrection! god resurrected Christ to make him life giving spirit so that he can direct the choice. he overcomes original sin. he overcomes the consequences of original sin. not us! non nobis domine. you are making of the freedom of grace something that requires choice and effort. yes, we live in a spiritual battle against the devil the world and the flesh, but christ has won the battle for us. don't you see that if you transform it into "I have to choose good or evil" faith becomes a terrible legalistic system? all we can do is ask for help, and even the desire for help comes from a movement of grace inside us.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:09 pm,
DeleteI stand corrected. You are correct. Before we can choose good, there is grace. I did not think I was arguing the same thing with Zoltan. I said that one cannot be virtuous without God's grace. We cannot do it on our own.
I don't get it. Are you saying man has no free Will? Cuz the Catholic Church teaches that man was created with free will. That's in the Catechism.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:06 pm,
DeleteAnonymous 3:09 pm is correct in that there is a grace before we choose to do good because the laws are written in our hearts and God speaks inside us. We have free will in that we can choose to say no or say yes to God. If we say no, we reject God and follow sin or the devil.
No. Ur argument was fine until u started talking about free will.
DeleteIt is very hard to argue w pelagians. In the first place because our whole society and culture is permeated with pelagianism. In the second because to deny pelagianism you need to do exactly what you asked Zoltan to do which is to say I am a sinner. And he got offended because for him sin is a betrayal of personal commitment to God so it’s like I sin and I break the contract w god and god gets offended and society goes potty and I can’t ever get to heaven. Which is why he cannot accept that a homeless man can be a saint. But if instead he were to see that our human condition, sin, is the great equalizer so that no one can feel or think that he is better than anybody else then we can all together be free to experience that god can transform us. This is what keeps me in the community. That we can be free and still love each other. I can’t even do that in my family! And now with the holidays coming and we will all be together we all have to watch what we say so we don’t cause world war 3. Instead in the community I never have to watch what I say. I can be free and know that Christ loves me when my brothers and sisters in the community put up with me and love me. That is a treasure.
Anon @ 406
DeleteMan does have free will. He can say no. For example. You how you feel bad When u fight with someone? And maybe you have thoughts of calling that person or trying to resolve it? thats Holy Spirit. Then we can think oh but I am right and that person is wrong. Here you choose. You can resist the desire to love the other which comes from god or you can follow the inspiration of grace.
Diana, where did I say you can do it without Jesus? On the contrary, I have emphasized our need for Him. Here is a list from my comments:
DeleteThe holy saints of the Catholic Church demonstrated that sin can be overcome by a life dedicated to Jesus. (12:50 p.m.)
Holy life is not possible without Jesus, without His teaching brought to us by the Gospels and the church. (5:50 p.m.)
"The fact is we don't remain sinners when we turn to Jesus for help." (11:26 p.m.)
Jesus made it possible for us to overcome sin, including our personal sins. (7:45 p.m.)
I have the potential to overcome sin by Jesus. (10:58 a.m.)
Dear Anonymous, you stated:
Delete"God resurrected Christ to make him life giving spirit."
Jesus as a spirit? How about the bodily resurrection of our Lord?! The Holy Spirit is a different person from Jesus in the Holy Trinity! Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit or Paraclete so that we are comforted. But He himself did not become the Paraclete.
Dear anon at 4:14 p.m. You don't need to speculate about what I said, it is enough to read it. If I am a sinner or not is between me and my confessor. Without offense. Period. I have never said a homeless man cannot be saint. It is the sin of the society at large that they do not have compassion on the homeless. Sin and holiness are mutually excluding each other because holiness is the nature of God and God has never sinned.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:14 pm,
DeletePelagianism argues that you can be holy on your own without God.
I have always said that you need God's grace to be holy. If one says yes to God, then he is choosing good. If he says no to God then he chooses evil. Whether he says yes or no to God, it is the same as choosing between good and evil. This is free will. It is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that man was created with free will. If man have no free Will, then how can he be held accountable for the sins he committed? At some point, we will stand before God and answer to our sins. We cannot be like Adam who blamed his sin on his wife nor like Eve who blamed her sin on Satan. The devil tempts us....yes. But this is where we turn to Christ to help us say no to sin because we cannot do it on our own. We need God's grace. pelagianism, on the other hand, says that we do not need God and can do it on our own.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteThis is what you stated:
"Diana, do you really think we can live a holy life? I have serious doubt."
I have answered your question. We can live a holy life, but only with God's grace because all things are possible with God.
Life giving spirit. From St. Paul. Man of the spirit vs man of the flesh. New Adam. Born of the spirit The spirit of Christ risen. If we are in the spirit. Holy Spirit, grace, life of god within you, new nature, baptism, whatever you want to call it. We can receive the spirit of Christ victorious over death to experience that our death is also overcome.
DeleteDon’t be facetious Zoltan. It’s not becoming.
Dear Diana at 5.16. You are either being disingenuous or very silly. Zoltan was making a point, and if you had continued his quote you would have found that he answered his own rhetorical question:
Delete"How can we live a holy life without walking away from and overcoming sin? Holy life is not possible without Jesus, without His teaching brought to us by the Gospels and the church."
That seems pretty straight forward. The kinks in these discussions always seem to come form your obstinacy and pride.
Dear Anonymous at 11:37 am,
DeleteActually, what he said was a contradiction. He started by saying:
"Diana, do you really think we can live a holy life? I have serious doubt."
He answered his own question when he said he seriously doubt it. The contradiction started in his next sentence when he wrote:
"How can we live a holy life without walking away from and overcoming sin? Holy life is not possible without Jesus, without His teaching brought to us by the Gospels and the church."
So, why the serious doubt?
It becomes even more contradictory when he stated the following:
"Most of us would never become a holy saint though. But we can turn the world into a better place for all, following Jesus in our civil life as best as we can.....
"Helping them with a social program of compassion and care would not make you holy instantly, but would definitely improve the life quality of many.
Christian values, when in our hearts, are shining through daily routines and acts. Being a dedicated doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. is not for the benefit of the church only, but for the benefit of the whole society."
Being a dedicated doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. will not make one holy because even an atheist can be the most dedicated doctor and help improve society. In fact, it is much easier to be dedicated to your work to improve society than to respond to God's call to holiness.
Whatever vocation God called us to be (married, single, religious life, or ordained priest) we are called to be holy, but that can only be done with God.
Furthermore, if I am wrong about something, I can admit it. Someone pointed out to me that there was grace before we do good. That is correct. God is in us. He guides us to do the right thing before we do it. So, grace was there before we do good.
Diana, do you think it is right to throw out my response when I try to protect the integrity of what I have written and to defend common sense?!
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteI did not publish your last common because there was no truth in it. If you have a problem with the catechists, you should take it up with them. You claimed that the catechists have never seen a holy life. How would you know that? If you want to bash the NCW and Kiko with fabrications, the jungle would welcome your comments.
Anonymous 10:31 pm, whose comment is below is correct. The disagreement started simply because you are unaware that in the Catholic Church, a vocational discernment means to recognize one’s vocation in the Church rather than in civil life.
Dear Diana, you might be angry and I completely understand you. I apologize if I am the cause of your anger. The truth about the catechists is that Archbishop Byrnes would like to see their credentials for a reason. As the appointed leader of the archdiocese, it is his responsibility to make sure that all catechisms are given according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. It is a common wish of all Catholics on Guam being inside or outside of the communities.
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteI am not angry at all. Please speak only for yourself rather than for all Catholics in Guam. I can understand you and Archbishop Byrnes wanting to look at the credentials of the catechists. Both you and Archbishop Byrnes think more like the world.
Discern on these things tonight......what credentials did the Apostles have? Under this thread, you spoke about the vocational discernment of the civil life. I have always heard the catechists speak of the vocational discernment of the Church......something you need to contemplate.
The world is now different than biblical times. How can we ensure that the catechists are teaching according to Catholic teaching?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:58 am,
DeleteHave you notice that the catechists team always include a priest with them? The priest works with the catechists and can ensure that they follow the Catechetical Directory approved by Rome. The International team, Kiko and Carmen, also have Father Mario working alongside them. The New Evangelization calls for the laity to evangelize. This is where we are at today.
Dear Diana, I have contemplated your suggestion that the catechists have the same credentials as the first apostles had and found this idea greatly lacking. The first apostles met our Lord face-to-face and listened His teaching in person. This gave them much authority in the church. In contrast, the catechists of the Way do not have this credential. So how can they claim authority over others? What kind of credentials do they have that is acknowledged by the church as valid?
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteFirst if all, how do you know that the catechists have not met the Lord face to face?
Diana, what are you trying to say...?
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteYou claimed that the Aoostles have credentials because they met Jesus face to face even after his death. You are implying that the catechists have no credentials because unlike the Apostles, they have not met Christ. So, the question is posed to you......how do you know the catechists have not met Christ?
Diana, the first apostles listened to Jesus' teaching in person. I said that. St. Paul was not a "first", for example, he did not see Jesus in person. He had a vision that was interpreted as seeing a light. What are you trying to say about the catechists? Have they ever met Jesus in person? Where is their authority and credentials coming from? It is a question, not a statement. Archbishop Byrnes is asking the same question. Is your only answer that "how do you know...?"
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteTheir authority and credentials came from the Holy See. According to the approved Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way Article 17, Section 3:
§ 3. After a suitable period of time in the Way,68 each neocatechumenal community chooses by vote some brothers and sisters to undertake the task of catechists. These are chosen from among those who give guarantees of a life of faith and of moral life, who participate in the Way and in the life of the Church and are able to bear witness, grateful for the goods received through the Neocatechumenal Way. These, if they accept this designation, having been previously approved by the pastor/parish priest and by the catechists who guide the community, constitute, together with the presbyter and with the responsible of the community, a team of catechists, to
evangelize and guide new communities, either in their own or another parish, or in another diocese,69 at the request of the respective pastors/parish priests or diocesan ordinaries. The catechists are formed in a suitable way (see art. 29).
The Statutes of the Way was approved by the Holy See in 2008. This is found in our Statutes; therefore, they have legitimate authority and credentials from the Church. Nowhere in that Statutes did it say they need to have some sort of theology degree, which you probably think they need. Every catechist team is always accompanied by a priest to ensure that they follow the Catechetical Directory, which was also approved by the Holy See in 2012.
If you are going to accuse the Catechists that they have never met Christ, then you should be able to explain how do you know that since you made the accusation.
Diana, I try to make you understand why is it a legitimate request from a bishop to ask for credentials of catechists who want to catechize in his diocese. You don't need to understand this if you don't want, but Archbishop Byrnes still will to ask for these credentials.
DeleteYou quote the mechanism of selecting catechists from the Statutes. But it is only about the technicalities, it says nothing about authority or credentials. Authority and credentials are established to a given person from above, like an authorization letter from the Pope, the Archbishop, etc. in a manner that can be demonstrated and proved. Why do you say I make accusations while I am asking questions?
I pointed out the difference between the first apostles who heard the teaching from Jesus himself and the catechists of the Way who cannot say that. Don't you think there is a difference between the two? The authority of the first apostles was established by their direct encounter with Jesus. The catechists should establish their authority from a powerful source that is widely accepted. Their credentials should demonstrate their basic knowledge of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As far as I understand, this is the concern of Archbishop Byrnes.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteIf you cannot see that the APPROVAL of the statutes by the Holy See is authoritative, then I cannot help you.
Diana, I have no doubt that Archbishop Byrnes has read the approved Statutes. The question is not about the approval but about its content: what is exactly in the approved Statutes? It says: Catechists "are chosen from among those who give guarantees of a life of faith and of moral life." How? Who makes the decision? Who judges the life of the believer? Do you see any authoritative guarantee here accepted by the Catholic Church? It is a mere technical description and no more.
DeleteHow can true authority be based on lax regulation? The whole design of the Statutes, especially the missing details, makes it open to scrutiny by local bishops who have NCW under their authority. You cannot claim persecution when bishops use their authority to ask for tangible guarantees and credentials.
Again, dear Diana, these are not only my questions. Please, do not try to turn it against me. There are legitimate concerns about the exact meaning of NCW regulations. Let me continue quoting: These people "having been previously approved by the pastor/parish priest and by the catechists who guide the community, constitute (...) a team of catechists." Do you see the circulus vitiosus? The definition of a catechist relies already on the concept of catechist, the very concept it tries to define. This is a logical blunder that should have been avoided.
No wonder the Archbishop would like to see more clarity and a straightforward interpretation of what is included in the approved Statutes.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteThe very first team catechist formed in Guam was approved and appointed by Archbishop Apuron, and the circle continued on. That is where the circle begins. In the same way, the very first pope appointed by Christ was the Apostle Peter, and the circle continues on.
The Statutes clearly stated that those selected must be walking in the NCW and that it is the brothers in the community with the approval of the priest who makes the selection. Why should the brothers in the Way be the one to choose the catechists? Because through their walk, they know the brother and can see the changes in them.
If a person has not been walking consistently and have never experienced evangelizing in two by two, what changes can come to them? The brothers in the Way are the ones who chooses the catechist s because they are the ones who knows who walks and who rarely walks. They know who participates in the WYD, the youth scrutacio, the two by two evangelization. They are the ones who can see the credentials (changes) in the brothers.
Changes are happening to the brothers in the Way because of their walk. Before the Way, a brother would never dare knock on the doors of people announcing the word of God. Today that brother stood up for the priesthood after he experienced evangelizing in two by two. Those are the credentials (the changes) that the brothers look for, and only they can choose because they know who walks and who rarely walks. They see the changes in the lives of the brothers.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteIf Byrnes was a man of good will he would have acted like every other bishop in the world who wants to know about the Neocatechumenal way. He can listen to a catechesis to personally verify what is said (like John Paul 1 did when he was patriarch of Venice) he can celebrate Eucharists,rites, celebrations like John Paul 2 and ratzinger and Bergoglio did. He can preside over redditios like almost every ordinary who has communities in his diocese does. He can meet with people and ask them questions and hear their experiences. He can go to israel and attend a meeting of all bishops like Cardinal Sarah did last year (and I won’t even mention all the other bishops and cardinals that have gone from all the world in the last 20 years) he can call his superiors in the Vatican to obtain their opinion and any document he needs including the directories.
We do nothing in hiding. Has Byrnes done any of the above?
Do not cloak your malice in sweet tones to cause more scandal and division. Remember that if only just 1 person is scandalized by what you say you risk your soul.
If you don’t like the community then leave. No one forces you to stay.
What you say is true Diana. The problem is that if people perhaps like Zoltan think that being Catholic means just learning the faith intellectually they can never understand that what the catechists bring is an experience. Catechists bring to a parish the experience of faith lived in small community. He doesn’t get it because for him faith is an intellectual excercise that makes him commit to being a good person so that he can make God happy and go to heaven. But that is not the Faith. It is a kind of religious practice. Faith is the exact opposite. Not us making God happy but allowing God to make us happy. That is the experience that the catechists bring.
DeleteLet’s see, let’s use his speech pattern. what kind of formation do the DREs of the various parishes have? Or for that matter any of the people who give religious instruction or formation in the parishes? Shall we look at all their credentials? Don’t you see dear Zoltan that there is a double standard here?
Diana do you know how the hearing is going today
ReplyDeletehttps://www.avvenire.it/multimedia/pagine/papa-francesco-nigeria-don-pallu
ReplyDeleteIn italian
Avvenire is the journal of the Italian bishops' conference
ReplyDeleteDiana remember carry the cross which is glorious in our time remember what Jesus did on the cross he didn’t fight he didn’t say go to hell to the people that’s doing this to him trust in god pray
ReplyDeleteDear Zoltan, dear Diana, dear Zoltan boring public food fight
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:58 pm,
DeleteYou find it boring because there are no vulgar language in it. 🙄
Could well be, Diana. But Junglewarch is dead in the water. No posts for days. Miss it. Sort of.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:15 pm,
DeleteFor goodness sake.....why miss something like that??? 🤤
From what I gather, the whole disagreement started with Zoltan disputing about what vocation is. Diana’s post is about vocation in the Catholic Church, which is a single life, married life, consecrated life, and the life of the ordained priesthood. Zoltan’s argument is that those things are not vocations.
ReplyDeleteZoltan said, “Dear Diana, being single or married is more about marital status than about vocation.....
In our lives we follow our vocation according to our profession.”
The disagreement began with vocation. But Diana is right. When the Catholic Church talks about vocation, it mainly refers to the vocation Diana posted about. Discernment in the Catholic Church was not about being an engineer, a doctor, or whatnot. According to Wikipedia:
Vocational discernment is the process in which men or women in the Catholic Church discern, or recognize, their vocation in the church. The vocations are the life as layman in the world, either married or single, the ordained life and the consecrated life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_discernment_in_the_Catholic_Church
Dear Anonymous at 10:31 pm,
DeleteExactly. The vocational discernment in the Church is not the same as the vocational discernment in civil life. In civil life, one’s vocation is to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, teacher, chef, construction worker, etc. In civil life, the calling there is to succeed, to be dedicated, for the betterment of society. The vocational discernment in the Church is different. It calls one to either follow a single life, married life, consecrated life or to be a priest for the betterment of the Church.
That makes more sense that the church views vocation along that line cuz not everyone has a job. Some people are poor and living in the streets without a job.
Delete