Thursday, December 24, 2015

What Does The Catholic Church Say?

Some people criticize the NCW for following the Archbishop.   What does the Catholic Church say about it?  According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):
1269  Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, holding them in respect and affection........
The Catechism is extremely clear on this.  It emphasized that we are to obey and submit to the Church leaders - the Pope and Bishops.  Our Church leader is Archbishop Anthony Apuron. He is the local vicar of Christ. Now, some people will mislead others by saying that the Catechism also says to follow your conscience.  The Catechism does not contradict itself. It is not going to clearly instruct one to '"obey and submit" to the Church leaders and then say something contrary to it.  Nowhere in the Catechism does it ever say to "disobey" the Church leader.  Instead, it instructs the faithful to follow their conscience in not following the directives of civil authorities who make laws that are contrary to the moral order, to the fundamental rights of human beings, and to the teachings of the Gospel (See CCC 2242 and 2256). 

Even the Holy Bible clearly tells us to obey and be submissive to the Church leaders.  According to the Holy Bible:

Hebrews 13:17-18 Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you. Pray for us, for we are confident that we have a clear conscience, wishing to act rightly in every respect.

Others may deceive you by pointing to Acts 5:29 where the Apostles stated, "We must obey God rather than men".  Yet, the Catechism of the Catholic Church interprets this biblical verse as referring to civil authorities (See CCC 2242 and 2256). The Church does not interpret Acts 5:29 to mean the Pope and Bishops.  Again, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not contradict itself when it clearly says to obey the Church leaders.  

What about Jesus?  What did Jesus say about obedience to the Pharisees who sat in the Chair of Moses? According to the Holy Bible:

Matthew 23:1-3  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Jesus was fully aware that the Pharisees were hypocrites; nevertheless, He instructed His disciples to obey them.  Obey them, not because they were hypocrites, but because they sat in the chair of Moses.   This must have been very difficult for many of Jesus' disciples to do.  

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us to obey and submit to the Popes and Bishops.  What if the Pope or Bishop is like the Pharisees, you ask? If Jesus said to listen to the Pharisees, He would also tell you to listen to the Pope and Bishops?  Obey them.....not because they are sinners, but because they sit in the chair of the Apostle Peter. Our history shows that the Church had a few bad Popes in the past who did not deserve to sit in the chair of Peter; nevertheless, it was Christ who still guided the Church regardless of who sits in the chair.  A few bad Popes in our history did not destroy the Catholic Church nor led her astray. Christ led His Church where He wanted her to go despite those few bad popes.  Although Archbishop Apuron is human and can sin like everyone else, he is not destroying the Church by bringing in the NCW.  After all, even the Pope allowed the NCW in Rome to exist.  

 The Holy Bible screams of obedience.  Children are to obey their parents, slaves are to obey their masters, wives are to obey their husbands, and the faithful are to obey their Bishops.  And when Christ came into the world, He also obeyed and submitted to the authority of His mother and step-father Joseph (Luke 2:51).  God puts everyone under the authority of someone so we can learn humility and prepare for God's kingdom. After all, how can one say they follow Christ if they cannot even follow the Archbishop who is the local vicar of Christ?

Have faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord.  The Catholic Church can never be lost because Christ is her Head and Spouse who always guides and protects her just as He promised.  "The gates of Hell will not prevail against her".  For the protesters who say they want their church back.....the church had always been there.  The Church was never lost.  You were the one who was lost.  The Church never left and Christ is waiting for your return. The true teachings of the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church is to obey your church leader.     


  1. Then show us the document approved by the Varican that Apuron promised the parishioners in Yona a year ago. The document that gives the NCW permission to celebrate the Eucharist which is different than what we do during the regular and Sunday masses. Post the document for all of us to see.

    1. Dear Tim Rohr,

      Why? So you can twist it and misinterpret it like you did everything else? Please stick to the OP.

    2. YOU AGAIN TIMMY.....AT 9:11 AM

  2. The OP is on why we must obey our church leaders. Apuron promised to find the document that shows that Rome has approved the liturgy practiced by the NCW. A year has passed and still we wait. Show us the document so we can put this past us and we can all respect the Leaders at the Chancery. Not delivering as promised has caused us to loose respect for the current leadership.

    1. Dear Anonymous at 9:33 am,

      The only explanation as to WHY the Church leader should be obeyed is because God says so. It did not say to test or challenge your church leader. The catechism explained the reason why you should obey and submit to your church leader. It says being baptized, you now belong to Christ who commands you to obey and submit to your Church leader. It is now up to you to make your choice. Are you going to follow what Christ commands you through the catechism of the Catholic Church?

    2. Rubbish. The only "Church leader" you follow is Kiko. So long as the bishops/popes don't contradict Kiko everything is fine, but if there is conflict, you go with Kiko.

      That's why the document giving permission to vary the liturgy is important, because to an impartial observer it looks as though you are all being disobedient to the lawful authority of the Church.

      This OP is simply an example of massive hypocrisy. You are not obedient to the leadership of the Church with respect to the liturgy, but rather you choose to do other things, even without any evidence that you actually have permission. You choose to practise a different communion, which means you are in a different communion. You are meant to be united with all other worshippers in the Roman Rote, but you choose to separate yourself and your fellow NCWers by your actions.

    3. Dear Anonymous at 12:46 pm,

      Then you have an explanation as to why Pope Francis ceased all investigations into the Way and why your letters remain unanswered for 30 years? The fact that the investigation has been dismissed and your letters are ignored is evidence of that of the obedience of NCW. Surely you cannot tell me that the Pope is ignorant of how the Way celebrates the Eucharist? Not once has Rome specifically told the NCW to stop consuming the bread together with the priest while sitting down. Furthermore, we have already seen what the jungle does to documents put forth by the Archdiocese. A person who has an agenda to remove the Archbishop and sell the seminary will not care about any documents put out by the Archdiocese.

      The NCW follows the Pope. Kiko also follows the Pope. The only ones who say otherwise are those who oppose the the NCW. The jungle and CCOG are already having a difficult time. They put up an announcement asking for victims who have been sexually molested by the Archbishop for how many months and still no one came forward even with SNAP standing beside the jungle. In today's news, you have a supporter of CCOG requesting and urging and pleading and begging for Catholics to come out and contribute money to CCOG. Why? Because obviously you are not getting the needed support.

      As someone pointed out in my blog, CCOG has not been very explicit in their intentions regarding the lawsuit. What did they hope to accomplish by going to court? What would the outcome be in the event that the lawsuit does not go in their favor? Do they plan to appeal?

    4. "and why your letters remain unanswered for 30 years?"

      Again, more lies. Which letters are you referring to? Maybe the letter of Cardinal Arinze in 2005, in which he speaks to the pope's instructions? Yes, that was largely ignored. I agree.

      "Not once has Rome specifically told the NCW to stop consuming the bread together with the priest while sitting down."

      Yes, it has. In the letter from Cardinal Arinze the NCW was instructed to change its communion practices to the "way in which the entire Church" receives. Obviously there was an exception made with respect to the communion procession, but otherwise all other variations are explicitly disallowed by that instruction. The fact that you continue to deny it is fascinating and very telling.

      "A person who has an agenda to remove the Archbishop and sell the seminary will not care about any documents put out by the Archdiocese. "

      What does it matter what the reaction is. The Archbishop has an obligation to the truth, and it doesn't matter whether people take it the wrong way. As it stands the Archbishop has claimed there is a document, said he would produce it, but has failed to do so. The reason? It doesn't exist.

    5. Dear Anonymous at 3:30 pm,

      You stated that the document does not exist because Tim Rohr told you so. Well, Tim Rohr also claimed that the Archbishop wanted to sell the RMS property. In fact, it was Tim Rohr who even claimed that the Archbishop coulld do nothing to rescind the Decree of Removal when in fact the Archbishop never said anything of the sort. He said the case was taken to Rome, and he will wait for Rome's decision. Anyone listening to the recorded tape heard it. Tim only put words in the Archbishop's mouth because he has an agenda. He is not interested in the truth.

    6. "You stated that the document does not exist because Tim Rohr told you so."

      No, I stated that the document does not exist because it can't be found. If it existed there would be no way the NCW wouldn't share it with the world because of the level of contention. It would be a great victory for the NCW to have been give sucj a document.

      In fact, that's exactly what the NCW were waiting for a few years ago, but were ultimately left disappointed by Pope Benedict. And this was apparently after your alleged "private and verbal permission" was given by the same pope.

      Curious much?

    7. Dear Anonymous at 6:30 pm,

      If it did not exist, the NCW would not be able to celebrate the Eucharist worldwide in the same way. Passing down oral instructions creates differences in the celebration. The fact that the NCW celebrates the Eucharist in exactly the same way indicates a written instruction was passed down. Furthermore, I was there when Father Pius gave us the new instructions. I remember he was reading from a paper that he had in front of him while he was giving us the instructions.

    8. Wow; you were graced enough to see the document that His Excellency is looking for but fails to find. Please Diana, share it to the world so that we too will beleive....

    9. As rumored; there is no document. Foolish are we who believed...

    10. Dear Anonymous at 12:56 pm,

      The rumor is that there is no document. The truth is that there is a document. :-)

    11. According to Tim, there is no document and he has Father Walsh's letter.

      TimDecember 25, 2015 at 8:22 PM
      So then there are two things: 1) Dingbat has just convicted Apuron of the willful spread of scandal - a grave sin, especially for a bishop; and 2) Dingbat has just called Fr. Francis Walsh a liar.

      If there is a document that would put all this to rest and Apuron has willfully withheld it, he is guilty of propagating a very grave and divisive scandal. Dingbat cannot say that we will twist it as the reason for Apuron's not publishing it. Apuron has shown no hesitation at publishing documents that he thinks exonerates him (his trashing of Msgr. James and the recent publication of the so called certificate of title.) Thus, we can only surmise from Dingbat's comments, that Apuron is willfully withholding said document and content with the division and scandal that has ensued ever since his first rejection of Vatican authority in 2006.

      As for what Fr. Walsh has written me, he has written me on two occasion confirming that there is no "document," and that the instruction was oral. I have both in writing. Fr. Walsh seems quite content with the oral instruction. Merry Christmas.

      Oh, P.S. Tell David the VG to get himself an attorney.

    12. Dear Anonymous at 7:59 am,

      Yes, I saw the letter of Father Walsh that Tim Rohr has. It was dated April 2008 BEFORE the Statutes was approved. Naturally, Father Walsh would say there was no document. There was not even an APPROVED Statutes at the time he wrote his letter to Tim Rohr; therefore, it is normal that there were oral instructions. By the time Father Walsh wrote his letter to Tim Rohr, there were no new instructions. The NCW on Guam was still receiving AND consuming the Body of Christ sitting down. The new instructions came on October, 2008. The following weblink shows Father Walsh's letter to Tim Rohr, which is found in the jungle. Anyone can see that the letter was dated April 26, 2008.

      The Statutes was approved on May 11, 2008. The written instructions came after the approval of the NCW Statutes (not BEFORE). The NCW on Guam received new instructions by October 2008, which was at the Beginning of the Year Convivience. During that Convivence, I saw Father Pius reading off from a paper as he was telling us the new way the NCW would be receiving the Body of Christ. He specifically told us that we stand to receive the Body of Christ. Once the priest places the Body of Christ on the palm of our hand, we sit down and contemplate with reverence on the Body of Christ while holding His Body close to our hearts. It was also at that convivience where the approved Statutes was read to everyone page by page.

      The NCW from other countries most likely received the same instructions during their Beginning of the Year convivience. If there was only an oral instruction, errors would have been made and the NCW would not be celebrating in the same manner. Written instructions are the only sure way that everyone celebrates exactly the same way.

      At any rate, Tim Rohr is putting words in my mouth. I never called Father Walsh a liar and I never convict the Archbishop of anything. The Archbishop mentioned that there was a document, and that was during his visit to Toto Church on June 2015. How did you compare the letter of Father Walsh which was written BEFORE the Statutes were approved and what the Archbishop stated in 2015 AFTER the Statutes were approved??? Perhaps, you simply ate everything Tim Rohr fed you rather than using reason and logic. Both Father Walsh and the Archbishop were telling the truth due to the time frame in which the statement was made.

      Tim Rohr would only twist that document to fit his agenda just like he did now with Father Walsh's letter on April 2008 BEFORE the Statutes were approved.

    13. Gosh, so you seem to be saying that the instructions of Pope Benedict, through the letter of Cardinl Arinze in Dec 2005 were totally ignored? That's incredible! Didn't Pope Benedict tell the communities in 2005 to stop this practice of sitting down?

      And now you say that the change occurred in Oct 2008?

      Also, just because Fr Pius read to you the "changes" in practise for communion, doesn;t mean that those changes were instructions from Rome. He could have written it down himself, or it could have been an email from Kiko, for all we know. You can't even say what the paper that Fr Pius was holding actually was,c an you? How can you then go on to say that it was the written authorisation from the Vatican?

    14. Dear Anonymous at 11:44 am,

      Where in my previous comment did I even mention Cardinal Arinze????? This is what I mean when I say "putting words in other people's mouth". Did you not read what the jungle posted regarding Father Walsh's letter to Tim Rohr?


  3. Diana, you are disobedient to the church, disobedient to your family.
    You need to learn Diana meaning of obedience.
    We are obedient to Mother church. You are not.

    1. Dear Anonymous at 3:34 pm,

      Mother Church says to obey, submit, and be respectful to the Archbishop, the local vicar of Christ. Protesting in front of Mother Church almost every holy Sunday is not being obedient. I am not the one in the protest lime.

    2. AT 3:34 pm........ you're DISOBEDIENT TO GOD

  4. 8.21am. Merry Christmas. You need to go to confession for your blatent disobedience to God on the day of his birth into the world. Whoever you are - I really pity you. Today we rejoice in Lord Jesus Christ birth .
    You live in the self imposed hell of disobedience. Praying for you, for Diana, all misfits hanging around you guys. Merry Christmas ........


  5. Usage of words " Lord Jesus Christ" are kind words my friends use at St.John's Episcopal Church.
    Are you a catholic 8.21am?

  6. AT 11:26 AM like I said You're DISOBEDIENCE TO ''GOD'' YOU GOT HATE

  7. All the Jungle monkeys got HATE but they love their Master TIM ROHR. why all the Hate towards NCW . what did these people do ??? and they're good Catholics.UMMM