AnonymousAugust 12, 2015 at 7:18 AM
This is off topic, but what about the neos use of the word presbyter instead of priest during your Eucharistic celebration? The neos use this word instead of priest. Isn't that a violation? According to Junglewatch:
"Copied below is the relevant excerpt of a letter from the Archbishop Pro-Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship to Bishop Pilla, then President of the National Council of Catholic Bishops, FORBIDDING the use of the term "presbyter", and a thorough explanation for the prohibition:
Prominent among the problems is the decision of the translators to break with common Catholic usage and translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters". This cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of sacrality, that carries with it the history of the development of the faith in favor of a term which does not."
"Copied below is the relevant excerpt of a letter from the Archbishop Pro-Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship to Bishop Pilla, then President of the National Council of Catholic Bishops, FORBIDDING the use of the term "presbyter", and a thorough explanation for the prohibition:
Prominent among the problems is the decision of the translators to break with common Catholic usage and translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters". This cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of sacrality, that carries with it the history of the development of the faith in favor of a term which does not."
Many of our Christian brothers say that we should not call our priests "father" because Jesus instructed us not to call any man on earth "father" (Matthew 23:7-10). Our Christian brothers took Jesus' words literally and out of context. You can view my explanation here.
In the same way, the jungle also took the words of the Vatican literally and out of context. The full letter can be found here. As anyone can see, it is a letter written to the President to the NCCB regarding the rites of ordination. Just as Christ was referring to the arrogance of the Pharisees in the use of the title "father," the Congregation for Divine Worship was referring to the ordination rite in the use of the word "presbyter."
The word "presbyter" is found in the adopted Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church; therefore, it stands to reason that the Vatican was never speaking literally regarding the use of the word "presbyter" just as Christ was never speaking literally regarding the use of the word "father" or "teacher." Christ is not a hypocrite. In other words, He is not going to forbid His disciples from using the word "father" and then turn around and use it Himself when referring to Abraham as "father" (John 8:55). By the same token, the Vatican is also not a hypocrite. They are not going to forbid the use of the word "presbyter" and then turn around and use it themselves when they approved the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way as well as other books and documents.
§ 1. The pastor/parish priest and the presbyters carry out the pastoral care (see c. 519 CIC) of those who go through the Neocatechumenal Way – also in the light of what is indicated in art. 5 §2 and 6 §2 – and exercise “in persona Christi capitis” their priestly ministry by announcing the Word of God, administering the sacraments and, as far as possible, presiding over the celebrations of the first or of other neocatechumenal communities in the parish.
(Taken from the approved Statues of the Neocatechumenal Way)
1530 Only priests (presbyters and bishops) can give the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, using oil blessed by the Bishop, or if necessary by the celebrating presbyter himself.
(Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Interesting that the Statutes make a distinction between the parish "priest" and the NCW "presbyter" as though they are fundamentally different? I wonder.
ReplyDeleteIf it is perfectly acceptable for priests to be called presbyters, why do the Statutes not say "§ 1. The pastor/parish presbyter" etc
It should be noted that "presbyter" means "elder", and does not refer to the ordained. Mormons have "elders" too. Mormons go out "two by two" as well. None of this means that Mormons are keeping the true faith. In the literal sense, I see plenty of "presbyters" (elders) sitting in the pews each Sunday (and morning masses too).
And this made me laugh:
"it stands to reason that the Vatican was never speaking literally regarding the use of the word "presbyter""
Actually, as the Vatican was dealing with the translation of a certain set or words, it was speaking "literally". In fact, you couldn't get more "literally" if you tried!
Dear Anonymous at 10:38 am,
DeleteIt does not make any distinction at all. The word "presbyter" is a LATIN word which means "priest" when translated into English. According to Dictionary.com:
"before 900; Middle English prest (e), priest, Old English prēost, ultimately < Late Latin presbyter presbyter"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/priest?s=t
The problem here is that you think the word "presbyter" is a Greek word meaning "elder" which is incorrect. The word "presbyter" is a LATIN word, which is translated to mean "priest" in English. The GREEK word for "elder" is "presbýteros" The LATIN word "presbyter" is translated into English as "priest", but the GREEK word "presbyteros" is translated to mean "elder." Furthermore, Dictionary.com defines "presbyter" as a "priest" in a hierarchical church (See weblink below):
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/presbyter?s=t
Therefore, the Catholic Church uses the word "presbyter" to mean "priest" rather than as an elder.
The Vatican was not speaking literally as in not using the word "presbyter" as all. In fact even Pope Francis used the word "presbyter." The Vatican was only referring to the rite of ordination just as Christ was only referring to the arrogance of the Pharisees when using the title "father." When Christ said "do not call any man on earth "father" He did not mean that literally in that we are never to use the word "father." The Protestants took Christ's words literally and out of context. It was the same with the jungle. The Vatican said not to use the word "presbyter", but they were referring only to the rite of Ordination. It was not meant to be taken literally in that we are to never use the word at all. The jungle took the word literally and out of context.
In addition to what I said above, the approved Statutes goes on to say:
Delete"........exercise “in persona Christi capitis” their priestly ministry by announcing the Word of God, administering the sacraments and, as far as possible, presiding over the celebrations of the first or of other neocatechumenal communities in the parish."
This statement above attached to the word "presbyter" in the Statutes is evidence enough to show that they are "priests" who exercise "in persona Christi" administering the sacraments as they preside over the celebrations in the Neocatechumenal Way.
Presbyter (Greek πρεσβύτερος, : "elder" or "priest" in Christian usage) in the New Testament refers to a leader in local Christian congregations, presbyter referring to ordinary elders and episkopos referring exclusively to the office of bishop.
DeletePresbyter (Greek πρεσβύτερος, : "elder" or "priest" in Christian usage) in the New Testament refers to a leader in local Christian congregations, presbyter referring to ordinary elders and episkopos referring exclusively to the office of bishop. In modern Catholic and Orthodox usage, it is thus distinct from bishop and synonymous with priest. In mainline Protestant usage, the term is however not seen as referring to a member of the priesthood and terms such as minister, pastor and elder are used.
DeleteThe Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the non-Chalcedonian churches and similar groups typically refer to presbyters in English as priests (priest is etymologically derived from the Greek presbyteros via the Latin presbyter). Collectively, however, their "college" is referred to as the "presbyterium", "presbytery", or "presbyterate."
DeleteThis usage is seen by most Protestant Christians as stripping the laity of its priestly status, while those who use the term defend its usage by saying that, while they do believe in the priesthood (Greek ἱερεύς hiereus - a different word altogether, used in Rev 1:6, 1 Pet 2:9) of all believers, they do not believe in the eldership of all believers. This is generally true of United Methodists, who ordain elders as clergy (pastors) while affirming the priesthood of all believers. The evangelical (or ultra low-church) Anglican Diocese of Sydney has abolished the use of the word "priest" for those ordained as such. They are now referred to as "presbyters". Presbyterians sometimes refer to their ruling elders and teaching elders (ministers) as presbyters.
Deletepres-by-ter
Delete[prez-bi-ter, pres-]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1. (in the early Christian church) an office bearer who exercised teaching, priestly, and administrative functions.
2. (in hierarchical churches) a priest.
3. an elder in a Presbyterian church.
Some clarification needed on this issue:
ReplyDelete1) The conclusion of this examination is that the text cannot be approved or confirmed by the Holy See for liturgical use.
Letter, link here: http://www.adoremus.org/98-01_cdwletter.htm
Analysis of the Letter: http://www.adoremus.org/98-01_hitchcock.htm
2) I did a comparison (Latin and English) of only few texts in the CCC ( PART TWO, SECTION II, CHAPTER 3,ARTICLE 6;THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS that speaks about Priest/Presbyter and Priesthood/Presbyterate) now here is problem: sometimes word: PRESBYTER is translated as PRIEST and sometimes as PRESBYTER, why ? I dont know.... Ask the HOLY SEE! :) Here are some examples:
1551 This priesthood is ministerial. (Hoc sacerdotium est ministeriale.)
1595 Priests are united with the bishops in sacerdotal dignity and at the same time depend on them in the exercise of their pastoral functions; (Presbyteri in dignitate sacerdotali cum Episcopis coniunguntur simulque ab illis dependent in suorum munerum pastoralium exercitio;)
1593 Since the beginning, the ordained ministry has been conferred and exercised in three degrees: that of bishops, that of presbyters, and that of deacons. (Inde ab originibus, ministerium ordinatum in tribus gradibus collatum est et exercitum: in illo Episcoporum, in illo presbyterorum et in illo diaconorum.)
1568 "All priests, who are constituted in the order of priesthood by the sacrament of Order, are bound together by an intimate sacramental brotherhood, but in a special way they form one priestly body in the diocese to which they are attached under their own bishop. . . ."52 The unity of the presbyterium finds liturgical expression in the custom of the presbyters' imposing hands, after the bishop, during the Ate of ordination.
1568 « Presbyteri, per ordinationem in Ordine presbyteratus constituti, omnes inter se intima fraternitate sacramentali nectuntur; specialiter autem in dioecesi cuius servitio sub Episcopo proprio addicuntur unum presbyterium efformant ». 190 Presbyterii unitas expressionem invenit liturgicam in consuetudine, secundum quam presbyteri, in ritu ordinationis, post Episcopum, et ipsi manus imponunt.
Links: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm CCC in English and Latin
3) Code of the Canon Law:
uses 28times word presbyter: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/FF.HTM
uses 30 times word presbyters: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/EO.HTM
uses 70 word priest: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/5X.HTM
uses 24times word presbyterate: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/HK.HTM
uses 5times word priesthood: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/I2.HTM
Here is a link to IntraText - Alphabetical word list for Canon Law : http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_FA.HTM
###
You dont need to publish this but you can check your self, the research took me about 20 minutes.
so presbyter is another word for pastor?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:12 am,
DeleteNo. Presbyter is a LATIN word, which means "priest" in English.
So why not just say 'priest' like all the other Catholics?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:42 am,
DeleteWhere did you get the false belief that all Catholics use only the word "priest?" Do you not know that even Pope Francis (who is Catholic) and the entire Vatican also use the word "presbyter." I think a more important question is why does it bother you that some Catholics use this word instead of that word?????? Why does it bother you that the NCW uses the word presbyter more times than the word priest???? It certainly does not bother the NCW that you use the word priest.
Think about that for a moment. Why argue over such a trivial thing......especially when it has already been pointed out to you that presbyter is a Latin word meaning priest? What if I use the French word for priest.....or the Spanish word for priest......or the Polish word for priest.....why would such a word bother you to the point that you want to FORCE people to use the word YOU want them to use.
Is there a difference between a pastor and a priest? I mean, pastors perform baptisms but deny the authority of a priest.
ReplyDeleteRight? wrong?
ReplyDeleteRE words from Archbishop Pro-Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship:
"Prominent among the problems is the decision of the translators to break with common Catholic usage and translate the Latin "presbyteri" into English not with "priests" but with "presbyters". This cannot meet with the Holy See's consent since it risks being misunderstood by the people and represents an unacceptable theological tendency. In particular it constitutes a retreat from a term that carries a sense of SACRALITY, that carries with it the HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE FAITH IN FAVOR OF A TERM WHICH DOES NOT."
Meaning of sacrality - Sacredness
Sacredness of the word "priest"
He who presents the "sacrifice" - "sacrifice," the word that the NCW, in its early days, retreated from in a large way, resulting in many liturgical abuses.
Although the Statutes may use the word presbyter in addition to the word priest, the word "priest" according to the Congregation of Divine Worship, is preferable and usage encouraged. According to the Congregation of Divine Worship, the word "presbyter" does not carry with it the "sacredness" which the word "priest" does.
The popular, and most often exclusive, usage of the word "presbyter" at the NCW meetings and NCW Mass, erodes (and outright abolishes) the sacred custom and tradition of the word "priest."
This, I believe, is what the Congregation of Divine Worship wished to re-establish - Usage of the word "priest," not only in the rite of ordination, as it would naturally follow into every "Sacrifice" of the Mass the "priest" offered in the future.
Dear Anonymous at 8:01 am,
DeleteYou stated: "This, I believe, is what the Congregation of Divine Worship wished to re-establish - Usage of the word "priest," not only in the rite of ordination, as it would naturally follow into every "Sacrifice" of the Mass the "priest" offered in the future."
If what you believe is true, then why did the Vatican APPROVED the word "Presbyter" in the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way? That word is found in the APPROVED Statutes. Because the word "Presybter" is found in the approved Statutes, this stands to reason that the word is not forbidden to be used as you claim.
Furthermore, under this thread an anonymous commenter made this following comment:
3) Code of the Canon Law:
uses 28times word presbyter: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/FF.HTM
uses 30 times word presbyters: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/EO.HTM
uses 70 word priest: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/5X.HTM
uses 24times word presbyterate: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/HK.HTM
uses 5times word priesthood: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/I2.HTM
Because the usage of the word "Presbyter" can be found in the code of canon law, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the encyclicals of the Popes, and other Catholic documents, it again stands to reason that the word "Presbyter" is not forbidden to be used EXCEPT in the Ordination rite as it says in the letter.
This is the same analogy I used when Christ told His disciples not to call any man on earth "father." Taken OUTSIDE of context, it means exactly that. Taken INSIDE the context of the Bible, it means something different. It is the same with that letter. Taken OUTSIDE the letter, it means that the word is forbidden to be used as you claim. But taken INSIDE the letter (as it is supposed to be), it simply means that the word cannot be used in the Ordination rite.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe: yours of 840 am " Because the word "Presbyter" is found in the approved Statutes, this stands to reason that the word is not forbidden to be used as you claim."
Note, no where did I say the word "presbyter" was forbidden; I stated the word priest " is preferable and usage encouraged. According to the Congregation of Divine Worship, the word "presbyter" does not carry with it the "sacredness" which the word "priest" does."
RE: "In particular it constitutes a RETREAT FROM A TERM that carries a sense of SACRALITY, that carries with it the HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE FAITH IN FAVOR OF A TERM WHICH DOES NOT."
The NCW is still "retreating" from the word "Priest" in favor of a term (presbyter) which lacks sacredness.
If during the Rite of Ordination, the usage of the word "priest" should be used, how can the NCW priest automatically be called a presbyter immediately after and onward ? Please note that the presbyters of the NCW did not believe in the Mass being a Sacrifice. (They were taught to the contrary of Sacred Tradition, and calling themselves presbyters avoided the sacredness of the word priest (who offers sacrifice of the Mass) so it would stand to reason that those very presbyters were in need of correction. During the Rite of Ordination, the Mass they celebrate is a Sacrifice - not just a convivial banquet.
The word PRIEST "emphasizes" the sacrificial nature of the vocation according to the sacred custom and tradition of the word "priest."
It would have been pointless for the Congregation of Divine Worship to insist on the word "priest" during the Rite of Ordination, and then have it abandoned immediately after the ordained walked out of the cathedral.
Each Mass, the newly ordained was to celebrate after their ordination, was also to be considered as being a Sacrifice - and the word "Priest" illustrates this Sacrifice better than "Presbyter.".
Dear Anonymous at 2:23 pm,
DeleteAs I pointed out to you, the word "presbyter" is found in the APPROVED statutes of the Way. If this same Congregation who stated that the word "priest" is more sacred, don't you think they would have eliminated the word "presbyter" from the statutes before approving it? The Vatican is not a hypocrite.
You also stated that the NCW does not believe in the sacrifice of the Mass, which is false. Where in any if the approved statutes or in the catechetical directory does it say that the NCW does not believe in the sacrifice of the Mass?
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe yours of 238Pm
stating: "You also stated that the NCW "DOES NOT BELIEVE" in the sacrifice of the Mass"
Again, you misread what I stated. I said " DID NOT BELIEVE in the Mass being a Sacrifice", and, "They WERE TAUGHT to the contrary of Sacred Tradition,"
This is quite different from DO NOT BELIEVE and ARE TAUGHT. The words I used were past tense. And, so they should be, because the Popes mercifully corrected this terrible error of the early NCW teachings especially in their seminaries. (You can check that out.)
I've noticed whenever you mention Statutes, you now refer to them as approved Statutes, and, you refer to "where" the subject can be found.
So I will again, with "approved" Statutes in hand, I ask you charitably "Where" in the approved Statutes of 2008 is the approval for all the additions and deletions in the NCW Mass.
Shalom
did not believe in the Mass being a Sacrifice. (They were taught to the contrary of Sacred Tradition,
Dear Anonymous at 10:17 pm,
DeleteThe NCW believes that the Mass is both a sacrifice and a banquet. And again, I will tell you the same thing......if you believe that we are in violation of celebrating the Mass (even after correcting us so many times), then write your letter of complaint to the Vatican and demand that THEY correct the NCW. In the meantime, we will wait for the Vatican.
Diana - You didn't answer the question..."Where" in the approved Statutes of 2008 is the approval for all the additions and deletions in the NCW Mass.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:38 pm,
DeleteWe have already answered that question. If you continue to ask the same questions, it will not be published. You already have our answer. If you are not happy, write to the Vatican.
To Anon 5:38 PM: It's very simple: Roma locuta, causa finita est! Rome has spoken, the case is closed.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana and Anony 11:58
ReplyDeleteInability to answer Anonymous at 5:38 is crucial.
I sent the following (with minor adjustments) earlier aug 14 2015, and you ignored it. Would you please post. Thank you.
But Rome has spoken, but NOT in the NCW's favor in this regard.
Refer to your post: Tuesday, July 21, 2015
Post Scriptum From Giuseppe and Claudia Gennarini
After commending the NCW on various areas in the first 6 points, the "7th" point, the Pope apparently made, refers to correction.
"SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands."
Diana, the approved Statutes of 2008, is what Rome expects the NCW to follow. Switching the NCW Mass to follow the directions therein would benefit the whole Church. Do not keep the NCW Mass for yourselves. It is to be open to all. The seminarian at our church could only participate at the Wednesday meeting. He receives Jesus on the tongue (the norm) at Mass; therefore, he was not welcome at the NCW Masses on Saturday nights unless he received Jesus in the manner that Kiko dictates. This is most distressing and uncharitable. The NCW Mass is to be open to all and is not exempt from the fact that no priest can refuse a person who wishes to receive on the tongue.
You constantly say " write your letter of complaint to the Vatican and demand that THEY correct the NCW. In the meantime, we will wait for the Vatican." Why do you insist that THEY correct the NCW. THEY are saying in the "7th" point that anyone can correct the NCW charitably with the Statute in hand.
Again, and again, and again, especially with the "7th" in mind, anyone can ask and SHOULD ask, "Where in the approved Statutes of 2008 do the additions and deletions in the NCW Mass appear?" Because, if they are not in the Statutes, the additions and deletions certainly do not belong in the Mass. It would be up to the NCW themselves to attain the Recognitio (written permission) from the Pope for these alterations, and not up to me to write the Pope to tell him to correct the NCW.
Again, a gentle reminder, the NCW did in fact try to get that written approval in January 2012, and they failed.
Pope Benedict did not approve their deletions and additions.
Rome has not spoken in your favor re the additions and deletions. If they had, the NCW would have come back from Rome in 2012 with written permission in their hand. They themselves knew it was important for this to happen; they wanted closure in this issue because of all the questioning (even from their own members.) The NCW knew that the permission was not in the approved Statutes; and this approval would have closed the issue.
The approval never materialized; therefore, the case is not closed.
Dear Anonymous at 3:12 pm,
DeleteWhat makes you think that the Pope was referring to anything liturgical in regards to the seventh point??? When the Pope met with the NCW, he gave us three recommendations, and none of those recommendations had anything to do with the liturgy.
Recommendation 1: to build and to preserve the communion within the particular churches by following the bishop.
Recommendation 2: give special attention to the cultural context in which you, families, will go to work:
Recommendation 3: The freedom of each person must not be forced, and even the eventual choice of someone who decides to seek, outside of the Way, other forms of Christian life that help him to grow in the response to the call of the Lord must be respected.
None of those recommendations given on Feb. 2014 had absolutely nothing to do with the liturgy. Therefore, I will tell you AGAIN. if you believe that the NCW is in violation of the liturgy, write your letter of complaint to the Holy See and demand the Holy See to correct the NCW. And until the NCW hears from the Holy See, the matter is closed.