AnonymousNovember 20, 2014 at 6:45 PM
Diana, this shows the kind of hatred that JW has. I can't even think of how anyone can hope for another person to die.
AgnesNovember 20, 2014 at 4:50 PM
Mary 3:40 p.m., Kiko better hurry up. He's 75 years old. I'm hoping he is called to his "heavenly reward" before long. Hopefully, his cult will fizzle out once he's out of the picture. And hopefully Rome will take what's left of the NCW after his demise and reform and de-fang it.
AgnesNovember 20, 2014 at 4:50 PM
Mary 3:40 p.m., Kiko better hurry up. He's 75 years old. I'm hoping he is called to his "heavenly reward" before long. Hopefully, his cult will fizzle out once he's out of the picture. And hopefully Rome will take what's left of the NCW after his demise and reform and de-fang it.
I cannot imagine how someone can publicly proclaim that they hope Kiko would die and that the NCW would be destroyed after that. Jesus said to love our enemies. He never said to hope or wish for their death. What has Kiko done to this person that she would wish such a thing to a person. Did Kiko kill someone or molest a child? What crime did he commit?
Why this death wish on Kiko and the destruction of the NCW? They claim that they do not hate us and are not persecuting us. So, what is this death wish? To hope and wish for death upon anyone is hatred, and to hope and work for the destruction of the NCW is persecution. This is where we need to pray for the jungle.
This death wish on an innocent human person (Kiko) runs contrary to the teachings of the Law and to that of Tim Rohr who is a pro-life supporter, at least up to this point. If Tim allows this post in his blog, he is contradicting his position as a defender of human life. And, no, 'freedom of speech' does not apply here because the 'death-wish' post is an act of malice and is evil.
ReplyDeleteTim should be aware of these points from the Catechism:
CCC # 1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man's nature and injures human solidarity. (the death wish is a sin, it is evil and therefore contrary to reason. Chuck needs to chime in on this).
CCC # 1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. the kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects. (Obviously this post reveals what is in the 'heart' of the Jungle).
CCC # 1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death. (The Jungle folks also called for the death of the Archbishop when they had the famous "Prayer Vigil" in July.)
Perhaps this 'death wish' post hoping for the death of Kiko and the members of the Way reveals what is operative in the sick hearts of men who spread malice against innocent human beings. It reveals the following:
1. These so-called apologists and defenders of traditional catholicism as per the Jungle pick and choose their enemies which is a complete reversal of Pro-Life Principles. All human life, even of your enemy, is sacred.
2. Their vociferous and venomous hatred of the Church (the archbishop, the seminary, the magisterium, even the 10 commandments 'thou shall not kill',) reveals that deep down their hatred is not based on a 'just cause', but on a pure, unadulterated and malicious hatred of the Archbishop. For this reason this is called an 'evil' hatred.
Last - we need to pray for them that they may see their sinful ways and may repent.
When you say "they" I assume you mean that one person? And where is the hatred anyway? It is simply logical that Kiko will die soon, and then perhaps there might be some necessary meaningful reform of the NCW, because we can be sure it won't happen while he is in charge.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:17 pm,
DeleteThe question is not that everyone is going to die. We all know that eventually everyone will die. The question is how can anyone hope and wish for someone's death. The hatred is when a person hopes and wishes for someone's death. Jesus said that when you get angry with someone, that is already murder. When you hope and wish for someone to die, that is murder in your heart. Murder is driven by hate.
Dear Anon 8:17:
DeleteTo declare the logical conclusion that all humans will die is one thing. But, to declare a hoped for desire and a wish for the death of another innocent person is a different matter altogether. To wish for the death of an innocent person goes beyond logic into the realm of intentions and the malice of the heart.
What I see in the Jungle is a glaring contradiction: One day Tim tells us to 'defend LIFE!' Then, as evidenced today 'LET KIKO DIE!' But why? What evil has Kiko done to you? What has Kiko done to you that you want his blood?
When a person has so much hate in them, it is only a matter of time when they start making up stories just to get rid of them. This is why there is so much false propaganda about the Way.
DeleteTruly the NCW needs reform to bring it into alignment with the Catholic teaching, doctrine, catechism and Roman Missal.
DeleteDear Catholic Guy,
DeletePope Frances has blessed us and supported us; therefore, we are in alignment with Catholic teaching and doctrine. In fact, we use the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I often refer to it in my blog. The fact that you disagree with the Pope is not my problem.
I think you have a narrow view of the whole context of the conversation here. Are you on the side of the oppressor or the oppressed? If people in jungle at times mention 'hate' it is coming from being oppressed by the ones in power here in the island. They are doing 'calling out' what they feel is a grave injustice. The mission of the church is no longer one of a "quantitative" notion of saving numbers of souls. Rather, the church's mission "is at all times to protest against injustice, to challenge what is inhuman, to side with the poor and the oppressed." (G. Gutierrez)
ReplyDeleteTherefore, the significance of Jesus Christ lies in His example of struggling for the poor and the outcast (in this case, the non-neo's). The Incarnation is reinterpreted to represent God's total immersion into man's history of conflict and oppression. By His words and actions, Jesus showed us how to become true sons of God - that is, by bringing in the kingdom of God through actively pursuing the liberation of the oppressed.
Did Jesus hate, Diana? i think you have a very romantic picture of Jesus...all mushy mushy (catechesis) Jesus even called people names. When he disrupted business as usual at the temple. Jesus could not have been smiling and singing. He could have cursed them. What did he call the religious leaders of his time? Wake up Diana, you have taken the opium too long already. It is time to come to the Light.
Final word from my friend G.Gutierrez, God is dynamically involved in behalf of the poor and downtrodden. And because God stands against oppression and exploitation, those who follow Him must do likewise. Indeed, Gutierrez says that "to know God is to do justice."
Where do you stand Diana, El Camino, Ernie? Are you the oppressor or the oppressed?
Dear Isaias,
DeleteAnd how is Kiko oppressing the people of Guam when he never came to this island? Why does this person wish him dead? What crime has Kiko done? We follow Jesus Christ and leave justice up to God.
Isaias - do tell, give us pointers in what way Kiko is oppressing the people of Guam? We need concrete fact not finger pointing. Injustice? Obviously you have enter yourself to mirage.In the WAY we are admonish by the CHURCH not to resist evil, you in the other hand your playing Judas.
DeleteEl Camino, you are not there yet, 'resisting evil' until you finish the Election, up to now it is only moralism, we are better than they attitude, we are right they are wrong, we are the ones persecuted, etc....Lumang tugtugin na yan, gasgas na...It is an old tune...El Camino.
ReplyDeleteI did not say Kiko hemself is oppressing the people of Guam, the way you are conducting your NCW affairs are the ones, from you to the leadership.
This was what i was afraid it will come to be, before the Way was a charism, innocent, Spirit-filled, simple, unassuming, always at the service of the larger community. Now, with the statutes, and the mandate it is slowly transforming itself into something other than what the Spirit started in '65.
Leave justice to God Diana, another catechesis, i know the catechesis Diana.
For your info, the the Incarnation is reinterpreted to represent God's total immersion into man's history of conflict and oppression. By His words and actions,Diana, Jesus showed us how to become true sons of God - that is, by bringing in the kingdom of God through actively pursuing the liberation of the oppressed.
Actively pursuing the liberation (salvation?) of the ones oppressed.
I can conclude since the NCW here is in power. with the backing and full support of the Archbishop, You are the oppressors. The rest of us outside the circle are the oppressed.
They, we, I include myself (non Roman) are oppressed by NCW.
No more hiding, the Jungle people of Guam have expressed and ventilated their situation.
Show them the mamo treto, so that they can fully comprehend. Otherwise, i may have to pull out my collection of the mamo treto (if i can find them in my library) that i had bound in the 80's and the Steps, (only until the Traditio). I know there have been changes but it wasn't much.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteHow are YOU being oppressed when you can say whatever you want against us and Kiko? Do you not see the post? The person wants Kiko dead and the Way destroyed. Where do you find us saying something like that against you?
Exactly my Dear Isaias. Remember that you freely broke communion with Rome and therefore must reap what you have sown. Your are not being oppressed. No one is hurting you. When you break with Peter, there are consequences that you place upon yourself. It is a proportionate response in accord with your free act of severing the communion you once had with the See of Peter.
DeleteIt is called SOLIDARITY with the ‘oppressed’ and disadvantaged, I am helping these groups (Jungle watch) in their struggle for liberation.
ReplyDeleteThere is a wild diversity of strange people who oppose the Way, sampled very characteristically at the Jungle.
ReplyDelete1.--- The first group is the extreme right. This group hates you because who you are. Many of them are openly or secretly anti-Semites. They are hiding behind conservative views, but true conservatives have nothing to do with anti-Semitism. This group would even accuse you of being a communist or a freemason, as some people do exactly this in the Jungle. Absolutely ridiculous.
2.--- The next group is the extreme left. This group hates you because you are "not liberated". We don't know what they mean by that. We consider ourselves liberated because we are free to follow God. Extreme leftists accuse us of not being politically active. But political activism is not the job of the Church. If you want political action, join a political part, not the Church.
3.--- Next we see those who consider themselves smarter Catholics than anybody else. They would always know better and lecture you about being a "true Catholic". But their theology is just a kitchen theology. They hate us because we don't fit their own self-image of perfectionism. They think perfectionism is the same as faith. But this is false. They even accuse us of heresy. Of course, they don't have any particular example of heretical view from us, but they like to throw in the concept for the fun of it. How silly!
4.---There are also those who are not even Catholics. They went away from the Church but they come back from time to time to make charges against us. Based on what? Nobody know. How can anyone be right in faith matters if not even a Catholic? But these people accuse us of not being like them. Well, we are thankful for the same reason. Lol! Who really wants to be like them?
5.--- There are also those who like to ride scandals. Why? Because this gives them a feeling of adventure. But I am not eager to have those kinds of adventures at all. The wind blows this way or the other and you turn as the wind blows... Is this something to follow for a reasonable person? Not at all! So we do not follow them. They accuse us just to make accusations for entertainment. What kind of show is that? For haters? What does it have anything to do with Christ? I tell you: nothing!
The first group has frenchie and his followers. The second is more like voice and his ilk. The third group includes Tim Rohr and Chuck White. The forth has Isaias in it and the fifth is like John Toves, etc. What a colorful company! Are you proud of yourselves? Because you should not at all!
What we know for sure is that if these wildly diverse people all hates us and accuse us day and night with one thing and also at the same time of the diametric opposite, then we must be right. Their accusations erase each other and we are left as the golden middle among all these charges. Thanks, dear “junglers”, for your kindness in confirming what we have always known, that WE ARE the peace, the calm, the oasis and spiritual growth for those who keep themselves apart from the extremes of either sides! For those who are just normal people and want to share a normal life while walking toward our Lord, Jesus. Blessed be His name.
For all the calumnies and persecutions we suffer, the Way in Guam should have been killed a long time ago. Rohr and his gang have done an excellent job in defaming and dragging the Way through hell and back; they have been successful in generating hatred, calumnies, false accusations and shame on the people of the Way. They have achieved optimal success in this regard, but somehow have not managed to kill the way, at least not yet. They've got lot and lots of money, they have powerful local folks fighting for them, they even have the ear of Archbishop Krebs, Cardinal Tagle, lots of priests, deacons and nuns on their side. Even the media! Tim is feverishly and obsessively on the attack in the blog. A variant effort indeed. They deserve some sort of award for their battles. But, despite all of this, the Way is alive and it thrives. It makes you wonder. Tim has all the ammunition at his disposal. He has managed to damage the Church and has led many astray and has managed to convince a lot of people to fear the Way. When will he stop? Who knows. He has an massive arsenal of hatred in store. He has damaged the church in such a big way and it will take years of work and prayer to heal it. They even flew in Toves from California to join the fight. In my sincere opinion, this hatred is like a verification, a proof, if I may say, that it (The Way as a charism) is from God. The Way is not for itself, nor is it for Kiko. The Way functions in favor of the salvation of man. It is an instrument to bring men and women to God. The devil is mad because through the Way many have found God. We need to move on to healing. They have done a lot of damage to the Body of Christ, the Church. We must pray for them. We must pray for healing and reconciliation. They will never destroy the Church, but when will they realize what they have done?
DeleteThe Jungle act Klan like or worst.
ReplyDeleteFight GOD you will loose. Mental defect of the Jungle will die. Many of these high power individuals deserve EXCOMMUNICATION. Here's the following list. Except Isais Guison he has excommunicated himself.
ReplyDeleteTim Rohr, Chuck White, Rey Dalisay, Mary Lou Garcia, Gerald Taitano, Rev Crisostomo, Fr.Efren, Mathew Rogue Blockley, John Fruit Toves, Jonathan Diaz, Janet B, Frenchie, Owen Bollinger Martinez Bro's and Melissa LG.
These individuals are not in Communion with Catholic Church in Guam. Once the Pope give this blessing for extraction. This list will be forever in Vatican and the record books.
Manuel Ayuyu
Jungle whatever is lying constantly. They are not in the truth. Truth will prevail.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:39, Diana, El Camino, in the end it is not about the truth, about righteousness, BUT IT IS ABOUT HOW YOU TREAT THE LEAST OF JESUS BROTHERS AND SISTERS. You just forgot the Christ the King reading in Matthew? All those who abuse their fellow brothers and sisters, physically, mentally, spiritually, will be held accountable here on this earth if not in the life to come.
ReplyDeleteConvert brothers and sisters, the Reign of God is at hand.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteWhat do you mean when you say that it is not about the truth??
Isaias look whose talking who is calling somebody who is mentally incapacitated look who is calling kiko a evil person look who brought out somebody to tell a lie about the archbishop so your saying were not loving the brother it is you and Tim Rohr and the followers of the jungle that ain't loving
DeleteTo Anon 10: 49 AM, why would someone perjury himself about the Archbishop? Why would someone put things on paper as evidence to be used against him? Why? Let the truth come out!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:33 am,
DeleteThey would do it for revenge. The reason no one comes forward is simply because there was no one who was sexually abused by the Archbishop.
Diana, lawsuits are inevitable. Little do you know. The truth will prevail! What would you do if it were the truth? Continue to defend the Archbishop?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:48 am,
DeleteIt is wrong to judge a person when you do not even have the truth. And in our society, a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I've said this before and I will say it again. Tim Rohr is not after justice. He is after revenge. His goal is to remove the Archbishop. The question is.....at what cost is he willing to do it? His family is already suffering because of it.
Diana, you didn't answer the question. If it were true, what would you do? Continue defending the Archbishop?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:09 pm,
DeleteIf it has been found to be true, his actions would be condemned as that is the right thing to do. However, the jungle already condemned him without any truth. So, why are you asking me such a question?
Diana, then it is only proper that Deacon Claros begin an investigation. This is his job now to do so! Will he do it? Many believe he won't!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:02 pm,
DeleteIt would be a waste of time for Deacon Claros to begin an investigation. No victim came forward to make the accusation. John Toves is not the victim. And the only thing he saw was the Archbishop giving a ride to his relative. Giving a ride in a vehicle does not indicate sexual abuse.
He claims that his relative told the rector in California that he was sexually abused by the Archbishop of Guam. If one is sexually abused by the rector on Guam, how is it that this relative is able to tell the rector in the California seminary? If I was sexually abused by a priest, I would not trust ANY priest and would be fearful of all priests. Furthermore, why was the relative showing signs of trauma in the California seminary and not here on Guam? There were more priests in California who were found to be sexual molesters than in Guam.
So, why is the jungle already condemning the Archbishop when they do not even know the truth?
I don't read anywhere in the jungle where there is a condemnation of AAA on the authors' part.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:18 pm,
DeleteReally? Here let me help you. This is what John Toves stated in the jungle:
"BASTA! - TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HURT AND WILL BE HURT! YOUR CHURCH WILL BE IRREPARABLY DAMAGED! YOU WILL PASS THIS DAMAGE ONTO YOUR CHILDREN! IS THIS YOUR PARENTING??? We have been dominated by other cultures. DO YOU STILL LIE SUBMISSIVELY??? APURON IS NOT A DEITY! - He is a human who breathes and bleeds blood; and, who lies, hurts others, hurts his church, and seeks personal wealth and stature."
As you can see, John Tovse judged the Archbishop to be a liar. He had already condemned him. The Archbishop said nothing to John Toves, and he has never done anything to him. The rest of the comments below came from the jungle:
AnonymousNovember 21, 2014 at 8:57 AM
Get yourselves ready!
Apuron will not step down quietly. He MUST be driven out!!!
This demon has no shame in its body!!!
frenchieNovember 21, 2014 at 10:52 AM
The Archbishop forgot one essential adage. "When you live in a glass house, you don't throw stones".
But over the years, bullying, and getting away with almost anything, I guess the arrogance became such, that he felt untouchable.
This is the beginning of a long and (unfortunately) ugly process.
You will also note that Adrian has become extremely quiet, because his closet is also full of ugly skeletons, and he now knows John is not kidding.
What people must realize is that there are more victims around, and if so far, they have refused for personal reasons or because of family pressures to testify, this might finally open up the proverbial can of worms.
We must stiffen our resolve because you know, that anti Catholic groups will jump on this opportunity to vilify our whole Church. This is one of the main reason the Archbishop was able to get away with his misdeeds for so long, because many of us felt reluctant to act, for that reason alone.
The Archbishop spiraling of evil deeds has forced this to the front.
His lack of humility, his selling of our Church to a Sect, (who most likely knew, but used this knowledge to corral brother Tony, rather than protect the flock) his baseless attack on good priests has brought us to the brink.
Pius must now beware as well, because our friends in Malta are starting to talk, and what is being revealed is not pretty at all.
The NCW has let loose a bunch of wolves in our midst. It is time we let the guard dogs loose.
More to come.
As you can see, the Archbishop is called a demon, evil, and all manner of things. Yet, he says nothing in return.
One of the things that an anonymous poster brought to light is that those in the jungle always claim that the Catholic Church is THEIRS. They say things like "OUR" Church or "YOUR" Church. They do not recognize that the Church actually belongs to God. I am part of the Church, and I belong to God. I do not belong to them.
DeleteI don't quite understand why isaias is so interested in posting or why you diana bother to publish his misinformed pseudohomilies. He has already said that 1. He is not catholic 2. He has a grudge against the way and now 3. He has a completely Marxist interpretation of history which makes him not only not catholic but not christian. At some point one has to start really reading one the other says and discredit for flawed values. He does not add anything to discussions. I almost feel like he is desperately trying to find validation for his unorthodoxy. Dear isaias, go troll other blogs. I understand your conscience needs to constantly reaffirm your apostasy but your arguments are now boring me.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:09 pm,
DeleteIsaias is not Catholic, but he is still a Christian brother. In his comment above, Isaias is not discussing about doctrines. In his comment, he is under the mistaken belief that the jungle folks are the victims and we are oppressors. But he never says exactly what the Archbishop has done to Tim Rohr, Chuck White, and the rest. What did the Archbishop do to Isaias? Nothing.
The Archbishop removed Father Paul from the Dededo Parish and Monsignor James from his post, but these are grown men. Since when did they need Tim Rohr to fight their battles? Father Paul already took his case to Rome. Did he really need the jungle for him to do that?
Diana, this is an extremely curious situation. If the Archbishop was/ will be reprimanded by Rome that would prove some truth in the allegations. It would have an inevitable impact on the NeoCat at Guam, as well. Perhaps the best thing for the Archbishop would be to seek remedies, as reinstating Fr Paul and Fr James, accepting full responsibility for the financial mess at the archdiocese and cut back the ambitions of the NeoCat at Guam. This could be a starting point of any reconciliation with the rest of the island. Of course, an uninhibited operation of the Cathedral gift shop and the museum must be also restored.
DeleteNeoCats would be prudent to start to distance themselves from the Apuron, because there could be some impact and ramification. It is possible the Arguello has already accepted the axing of his favorite Pacific Arch following some Vatican deal. In that case the ax will surely fall. It is also possible that Arguello has known all about Apuron for ages and used his leverage of sensitive information to make advances on Guam. If this is so, then Apuron should openly confess about all the pressure that was placed on him. This might save his legacy if not his office.
In order to call yourself christian u are required to believe a number of things amongst which are the presence of evil in the world because of original sin and hence the need of a savior. The savior came suffered died and resurrected. He did not organize the downtrodden masses of the world to establish justice on this world. Which is not to say that a Christians duty is not to feed the hungry console the afflicted help the needy etc (works of mercy). It most definitely is. However the Christians duty is not to combat injustice. Christ did not combat injustice he suffered injustice thus showing the christian how he or she is to live. Isaiah advocates that he is in solidarity with the oppressed struggling for liberation. Viva la revolucion anybody? To say that in Guam all will be well if you get rid of certain people you don't like is so rediculous it verges on stupidity and on a deeper level implies that problems come from the existence of injustice not original sin. In the words of Gamaliel, yes a Jew but also quoted by St. Paul, if the way is from God he will defend it if it is not he will take care that it dies. All these voices raised up in angry protest against the way are not Christian. And in particular mr. Ginson shows a strong attraction to Marxist parlance. He might not espouse the all the ideology but his belief in some calls into question his Christianity. I don't have to go into a dissertation about how Christianity and Marxism are in total opposition do I?
DeleteDear voice of faith,
DeleteI think it would be more prudent to keep your distance from Tim Rohr and Chuck White.
Vof, I leave you to your politics I prefer to trust in God. What will you do when God judges you by the same standard that u use?
DeleteOr else, dear Diana, or else what would happen? Would you excommunicate me, as Ernie tried by calling me a leftist? Well, I am absolutely supporting Isaias' stance for change and social justice. This would not make anyone a leftist, even less a Marxist as someone who knows nothing about Marx above tries to bring up. Jesus was a liberator through faith and this had nothing to do with Marxism.
DeleteThe broad coalition at the JungleWatch blog was brought together by the arrogance of some NeoCat arbiters who push too hard and too fast to colonize Guam for this particular kind of one person based Christianity. This person for you NeoCats is apparently not Jesus but Arguello. If it would be Jesus you do what He would do! But you don't. You inflict injustice on people and this is not Christ-like.
Even for you, dear Diana, it seems to be accidental that you support Archbishop Apuron. Because you are the same bunch. But if Apuron would not be a NeoCat you would not care much about him. This is my impression. Even when you argue against Fr Paul and Fr James, this does not sound right. You are so biased against them with no reason. These people did not hurt you, so why do you want to hurt them? Apuron started the war against them, you have no obligation to support him blindly in his campaign against honor and dignity.
All I am saying, dear Diana, is that you should start using your own mind and your own judgment to think without being directed by whoever in your NeoCat movement. Okay, you say it is not a movement, but "actually" it is. As a sociological construct, Arguello is the leader of a religious movement, that is Catholic in many aspects, but apparently not in all aspects. So when you talk about keeping distances, I surely hope you are not preferring to keep distance from the center of our faith just because you have replaced Him by someone alive.
Dear voice,
DeleteI do not have the authority to excommunicate you. If Archbishop Apuron were not walking in the Way, I would still support him because he is the Archbishop. He is the Pope's representative since it was the Pope who appointed him.
What makes you think that I support only the Way. Have I not told you that I also attend the regular Mass? Do you not know that the music I post in my blog is not ONLY music from the Neocatechumenal Way?