Under one of my posts, an anonymous poster asked me to point something to him/her where he/she might understand why the Pope believes it is better not to kneel since in the Neocatechumenal Way, we do not kneel in the Eucharist.
First of all, the Pope does not think that it is better not to kneel. Just because we do not kneel in the Eucharist does not mean that kneeling is not important or less reverent in any way. I explained to the person who made the comment that the Eastern Catholics also do not kneel in their Eucharist.
The Catholic Church includes BOTH the Latin-rite Church and the Eastern-rite Church that are in communion with the Pope. The Eastern-rite Church have a different liturgy than the Latin-rite Church; nevertheless, their liturgies (which is one of the oldest in Church history) is accepted by the Pope. Eastern Catholics do not kneel in their Eucharist. Most of the time, they stand. Eastern Catholics feel that standing is very reverent. Of course, this is not to say that kneeling is not reverent. In the Holy Bible, one can find kneeling, prostrating, and standing in worshipping God. That is the beauty of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
One would also find icons in the Eastern-rite Church. The Latin-rite Church, on the other hand, uses both icons and statues. Like the Eastern Catholics, members of the Way do not kneel in the Eucharist. Despite the different liturgies, however, the Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. In fact, the Church never even called herself "Roman Catholic". Roman Catholic is a modern term. According to EWTN:
The English-speaking bishops at the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, conducted a vigorous and successful campaign to insure that the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council's official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.
Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as "I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church." Simply that -- Catholic Church. There are references to the Roman curia, the Roman missal, the Roman rite, etc., but when the adjective Roman is applied to the Church herself, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!
The term Roman Catholic
I don't even call myself "Roman Catholic." I am a Catholic...period. That alone says it all. The beauty about the Catholic Church is that she celebrates a variety of liturgies. Below is a 33 minute video of the Eastern Catholics in the Byzantine rite.
Diana, do you need to be reminded of your own statutes again?
ReplyDeleteArticle 13.3 "§ 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical
books of the *Roman Rite* are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See."
We know what the "explicit concessions" are (please note carefully the word "explicit").
To argue NCW liturgical variation on the basis of the Eastern Rite is what is called a "non-sequitur".
By the way, in all your many words, you still have not argued why it is better to stand rather than kneel during the consecration. Are you unable to provide the reason(s) why? Is it because you believe that Jesus is not truly and eminently present in the Blessed Sacrament? Or is it that you feel too proud to kneel? Do you believe, perhaps, that Jesus would be offended by you kneeling. What is it Diana?
Dear Anonymous at 3:03 p.m.,
DeleteThe Eastern Catholics were never separate from us. By separating our brothers and sisters in the Eastern-rite Church, you are proclaiming that the Latin-rite is superior. You also proclaim that the Latin rite cannot use any Eastern rite liturgy, when actually it is up to the Pope who makes those decisions.
According to the GIRM:
390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
•The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);
•The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);
•The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);
•The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);
•The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);
•The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);
•The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).
I am a Roman Catholic! My church never broke away and then asked to return such as the Eastern Byzantine, Angelicans, etc. so are you tell me that the NCW is now a new way of celebrating the liturgy? So you should call yourselves the Church of the Neocatechumens with your own liturgy/songs, / communion rites, etc. but with the approval of the Pope like the rest of the churches that broke away and came back!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 4:04 p.m.,
DeleteI am saying that we have the permission of the Pope to change the "sign of peace", to remain standing in our place when receiving holy communion, and among other things we do in our celebration of the Eucharist. The Eastern Catholics are part of the Catholic Church, and I don't discriminate against them. The Pope sees nothing wrong with their liturgy despite that they stand in worship; therefore, there is no reason for him to deny us to also stand in worship.
The Neocatechumenal Way is to celebrate in small communities just as the Early Christians did. The Early Christians celebrate in people's homes, which is what we sometimes do. This does not make their liturgy wrong. As I kept saying over and over and over and over and over and over......the beauty of the Catholic Church is that she has a variety of liturgies. But for some reason, people seem to take that the wrong way.
Celebrating the liturgy in a private home, wouldn't that be against the statute because the Mass must be open to everyone?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:59 p.m.,
DeleteThe Eucharist is open to non-members of the Way even if it is celebrated in the home. It is only advisable to let the home owner know so the brothers in community would be able to provide enough chairs for everyone including the visiting guests.
Are you saying that the NCW is autonomous and a self governing church but in full communion with the Pope like the Eastern Catholics.
ReplyDeleteThe Eastern Catholic Churches[1] are autonomous, self-governing particular churches in full communion with the Pope. Together with the Latin Church, they make up the Catholic Church as a whole. They preserve many centuries-old Eastern liturgical, devotional, and theological traditions, shared in most cases with the various other Eastern Christian churches with which they were once associated, such as the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church.
Some theological issues (primarily, though not exclusively, regarding the role and extent of the authority of the Bishop of Rome) divide them from their counterparts of similar traditions but not in communion with Rome. Accordingly, they admit members of such churches to the Eucharist and the other sacraments only in the circumstances indicated in canon law.[2]
As I kept saying over and over and over and over and over and over......the beauty of the Catholic Church is that she has a variety of liturgies. But for some reason, people seem to take that the wrong way. (See my comment above).
DeleteWhat Diana has just done is to purport that the NCW is a Rite of the Catholic Church rather than just a "movement".
ReplyDelete-CU-
Dear Catholic United,
DeleteThe Neocatechumenal Way is an itinerary, NOT a rite. According to Dictionary.com, a "rite" is defined as "a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites". You can say that baptism is a rite, but the NCW, Charistmatic Catholics, and even Opus Dei are not "rites." By the way, the NCW is also NOT a movement.
But what your exposition posits is that you take some elements of the Eastern Church along with the Roman /Latin and mix it up to formulate your unique Celebration/Mass?
DeleteOr no, that's not what you're saying?
-CU-
Dear Catholic United,
DeleteThis whole thing about the Eastern Catholics started because an anonymous poster asked me to point something to him/her where he/she might understand why the Pope believes it is better not to kneel since in the Neocatechumenal Way, we do not kneel in the Eucharist. (Just read my post above).
As I stated in my post above..."..First of all, the Pope does not think that it is better not to kneel. Just because we do not kneel in the Eucharist does not mean that kneeling is not important or less reverent in any way. I explained to the person that the Eastern Catholics also do not kneel in their Eucharist." I also pointed out in one of my comments that the Japanese Catholics in Japan were also granted not to kneel, but to remain standing in their Eucharist. The Japanese Catholics asked the Pope if they could remain standing rather than kneeling because in their culture kneeling is equivalent to sitting, which they view as "disrespectful." The Pope granted their request.
The Pope is aware that there is a vast variety of liturgies in the Catholic Church. You have liturgies where Catholics stand in worship and others where Catholics kneel in worship. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church. So, why would the Pope deny the Way to kneel.....especially when both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI had experienced the two hour long Eucharistic celebration of the Way. It is the Pope who decides the changes in the Way's liturgy and he has done that.
According to the GIRM:
390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
•The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);
•The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);
•The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);
•The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);
•The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);
•The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);
I was pointing out to the anonymous poster that the Pope can change the liturgy and instruct us to remain standing in our Eucharistic celebration just as the Eastern Catholics do. However, that does not mean that we automatically become Eastern Catholics.
The original question was: why do you, Diana, believe it is a better thing not-to-kneel during the Eucharistic prayer and consecration, than it is to kneel? No answer so far.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:10 p.m.,
DeleteIn the first place, I NEVER said that it is better not to kneel. So,why ask this question when I never said anything about my belief or feelings about kneeling.
My response to the question is.... that we do not kneel in the Eucharistic celebration. We were told to stand. When receiving the Body of Christ we were told to stand. I heard these instructions from Father Pius back in 2008. He said that they got these instructions from Kiko who in turned received it from the Pope. Since it came from the Pope, I obey.
If God asked me to do something, I am going to follow His will.....not my own will. It is the same with the Pope, whom God has sent to guide us.
I already said that worship comes from the heart whom God can only see. God is the only one who knows whether a person is truly worshipping Him regardless of whether that person is standing or kneeling.
The NCW have permission to stand in order to receive communion - there is no argument about that, because it is clearly permitted under the Statutes. You are deliberately confusing the issue. However, there is no permission given to stand during the consecration. We have asked repeatedly for the document(s) which give that permission. If the pope gave that permission, it too would be clear and in writing.
DeleteWhen you say "If God asked me to do something, I am going to follow His will.....not my own will" does this apply to Kiko as well?
The GIRM clearly instructs you to kneel, but your argument is that Kiko has been given some secret permission and therefore the instructions of the GIRM don't matter to you. You even go so far as to justify this practise by resorting to other Rites, and ignoring the Instruction of the Roman Rite.
So, in your mind, then, Kiko = God, which is what we already suspect, of course.
But no-one, including Kiko, has the authority to vary the liturgy without the *explicit" permission of the Holy See. The pope(s) have said repeatedly that the NCW must faithfully follow the liturgical books of the Roman Rite - are you going to follow the Pope(s)' will - or Kiko's?
Dear Anonymous at 11:09 a.m.,
DeleteSee my post below:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/cardinal-arinzes-letter-to-kiko.html
The NCW decided to makes changes in the liturgy especially in the manner of consuming the sacred host, so as I have asked are you an autonomous and self governing? Seems to me that the NCW makes their own rules, changes in the liturgy, etc. so that makes the NCW a self governing autonomous Church!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 6:48 p.m.,
DeleteWe are not autonomous. Did you not read my post on Kiko being the consultant of the Pontifical Council for the Laity???. His role is always keep in touch with the Vatican and the diocesan bishops. Furthermore, the minor liturgical adaptions of the Way was granted to the NCW to help them answer to the needs of the New Evangelization.
Just because I compare the liturgies of the Eastern Catholics in regards to standing up during the Eucharist does not mean that we are Eastern Catholics. As I keep saying over and over and over and over....the beauty of the Catholic Church is the variety of liturgies she has. Showing you that there are many different liturgies in the Catholic Church was my point. Unfortunately, you think that there should only be ONE liturgy that everyone should adhere to, and that is your error. Only the Pope and teaching Magisterium decides what changes and adaptions we can make in our celebration. You have no say in it.
So the NCW is a church within the Church!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:13 p.m,,
DeleteThe NCW is an itinerary of Catholic formation. It is NOT a Church within a Church. It is similar to the RCIA program, but lasting much longer. Its purpose is to rekindle the faith in people who have been baptized Catholics,
So you are saying that any Catholic community is entitled to add or omit parts of the Roman Rite Mass so long as those additions or omissions occur in some other Catholic Rite?
Delete"Only the Pope and teaching Magisterium decides what changes and adaptions we can make in our celebration."
DeleteEvidently not. Where's the bit about standing through the consecration? If standing during the consecration was one of those "minor liturgical adaptions of the Way" that were given as concessions, where are the documents? If no instruction has ever been issued publicly or formally that provides for this variation, then what, Diana? Because there isn't. So, where do we go from there? AH...Kiko, the true savior of the way.
Does the RCIA have its own mass too?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:10 p.m.,
DeleteThe approved Statutes of the Way says that we celebrate the Eucharist in small communities. So, yes, we celebrate the Eucharist in small communities. This was approved by Rome, and so we celebrate in small communities.
When I say that the Way is SIMILAR to the RCIA program.....that does not mean that it IS the RCIA program. As a matter of fact, if you look at the Statutes that were approved by the Holy See, the RCIA is mentioned in footnotes numbers 15, 19, 29, 30, 44, 48. 66, 80, 92, 106, 111,118, and 119. So, it is practically almost the whole book.
Dear Anonymous at 11:06 p.m.,
DeleteI have said over and over and over and over that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have celebrated the Way's mass, and they never had any problems about not kneeling during the Eucharistic celebration. Common sense would tell anyone that if it wasn't brought up as one of the issues, then it was never an issue to them in the first place. This is going to be the last time I am going to make this comment. Any other similar comments will be deleted.
Dear Anonymous at 10:59 p.m.,
DeleteNow, where did I say that??? I stated that "Only the Pope and teaching Magisterium decides what changes and adaptions we can make in our celebration."
For example, who created he Novus Ordo Mass?? The Novus Ordo Mass came from Paul VI after the Second Vatican Council. So, were there changes made in the Mass after the Second Vatican Council?
Well, you justified standing during the consecration by appealing to selective practises of the Eastern liturgies. If "Only the Pope and teaching Magisterium decides what changes and adaptions we can make in our celebration", then where is the permission?
DeleteYour example of the Novus Ordo is fine, except in that case, everything is clear, written and available to an enquirer, but in your argument, it is a secret doctrine handed down from your founders, and without any proof.
Dear Anonymous at 11:16 a.m.,
DeleteSee my post below:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/cardinal-arinzes-letter-to-kiko.html