This is in response to an anonymous poster who commented in my last post, which is found here. According to his/her comment (written in red):
What is in your heart will show in your behavior.
43 of the GIRM "In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they [the faithful] should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause."
Another liturgical abuse, discussed in some detail here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/KNEELING
The following is my response:
GIRM 43 further goes on to say the following (the bold is my emphasis):
However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. [Sacrosanctum Concilium 40; Varietates legitimate 41]
GIRM 43 cites Sacrosanctum Concilium 40, which states (the bold is my emphasis):
40. In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore:
1) The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individuals peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should then be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.
2) To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.
3) Because liturgical laws often involve special difficulties with respect to adaptation, particularly in mission lands, men who are experts in these matters must be employed to formulate them.
Sacrosanctum Concilium
The Neocatechumenal Way was in an "ad experimentum" for a period of five years, in which it has become the norm not to kneel, but to stand. As for the Varietates legitimate, this is what it stated (the bold is my emphasis):
54. For the celebration of the eucharist, the Roman Missal, "while allowing...for legitimate differences and adaptations according to the prescriptions of the Second Vatican Council", must remain "a sign and instrument of unity" [107] of the Roman rite in different languages. The General Instructions on the Roman Missal foresees that "in accordance with the constitution on the liturgy, each conference of bishops has the power to lay down norms for its own territory that are suited to the traditions and character of peoples, regions and different communities," [108] The same also applies to the gestures and postures of the faithful, [109] the ways in which the altar and the book of the Gospels are venerated, [110] the texts of the opening chants, [111] the song at the preparation of the gifts [112] and the communion song, [113] the rite of peace, [114] conditions regulating communion with the chalice, [115] the materials for the construction of the altar and liturgical furniture, [116] the material and form of sacred vessels, [117] liturgical vestments. [118] Epscopal conferences can also determine the manner of distributing communion. [119]
Varietates legitimate
As you can see, the GIRM allows certain differences and adaptions to the Eucharist with the permission of the Holy See. Thus, the Neocatechumenal Way practices a valid liturgy approved by the Holy See. The Way is not in violation of the GIRM.
GIRM does say to kneel if able during the Eucharistic Prayer
ReplyDeleteRe:GIRM 43
However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. [Sacrosanctum Concilium 40; Varietates legitimate 41]
Note: The Bishop has the authority to regulate standing or kneeling after the Lamb of God (Agnus Dei) NOT the Holy Holy Holy (Sanctus) Consecration - HERE we are called to kneel and adore Jesus - truly present.- (as per the Roman Missal-GIRM. Even in Revelation - the people prostrate themselves after the Holy Holy Holy..
Re: GIRM 43 cites Sacrosanctum Concilium 40,
1) The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individuals peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should then be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.
Note: Traditions and Culture are very important - Pope Francis addressed this recently. Again recognition - written permission is needed for these changes.
Re: 2) To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.
Note: - determined period of time has expired.
Re: The Neocatechumenal Way was in an "ad experimentum" for a period of five years, in which it has become the norm not to kneel, but to stand. As for the Varietates legitimate, this is what it stated (the bold is my emphasis):
54. For the celebration of the eucharist, the Roman Missal, "while allowing...for legitimate differences and adaptations according to the prescriptions of the Second Vatican Council", must remain "a sign and instrument of unity" [107] of the Roman rite in different languages. The General Instructions on the Roman Missal foresees that "in accordance with the constitution on the liturgy, each conference of bishops has the power to lay down norms for its own territory that are suited to the traditions and character of peoples, regions and different communities," [108] The same also applies to the gestures and postures of the faithful, [109] the ways in which the altar and the book of the Gospels are venerated,..........
Note - Again the experimental period of 5 years has expiried.
John Paul II through Cardinal Arinze (in Redemptionis Sacramentum 2004) states that recognitio from the Pope must be given to the Bishops asking for changes to the Mass before they can issue permission for these changes.. Cardinal Ratzinger contributed to that document. And, when Cardinal Ratziinger became Pope Benedict, he had Cardinal Arinze pen a letter to Kiko in 2005 requiring the neos to change their Mass back to the regular way within two years.
Pope Francis, too, did not give Kiko the permission early in 2014 in Rome and again in the letter addressed to him in April 2014.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 883 says;
The college of body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peters successor as its head. As such, this college has supreme and full authority over the universal church, but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.
We must pray for our priests and bishops to be united with the Holy Father so that they may shepherd us accordingly.
Writing with no hostility - I know many of the neos; they are beautiful people.
Dear Anonymous at 1:06 p.m.,
DeleteThe NCW already has the permission of the Pope. We have the endorsement of five Popes. We are united with the Vicar of Christ. Whatever problems that the NCW experienced during the experimental stage has already been corrected. Kiko has always sought the endorsement of the Popes because he does not want to be outside the Catholic Church.
Thank you for posting GIRM Sec. 43, Concilium 40.
ReplyDeleteThese points which you've placed emphasis nullify the manner in which the NCW celebrates the Eucharist:
2. "preliminary experiments..over a determined period of time"...The NCW has celebrated in the experimental manner Ad Infinitum, beyond what the Holy See had prescribed.
3. The Archdiocese of Agana is not a mission land. Maybe Kiribati is or China. But since we have an installed"Archdiocese" we're definitely NOT a mission land which negates the application.
54. Have you read it? It allows for the differences in language and culture only. Being sensitive to those gestures, behaviors that a particular country may be sensitive or in contrast to. It doesn't give the NCW license to do as it pleases because it is from Spain. This is what Pope Francis recommended wherever you go, be sensitive to the country where you evangelize.
-Catholics United-
-Catholics United-
Diana, look at the lengths you will go to in order to seek to justify (unsuccessfully in my opinion) a single variation to the clear instructions of the Roman Missal. It is telling that at no stage do you argue *why* it is a better thing not to kneel than it is to kneel.
ReplyDeleteIn any case:
1. GIRM 43 clearly states that the faithful should kneel unless it is physically difficult or impossible. If physically difficult or impossible, the GIRM requires the faithful to make a profound bow instead.
2. GIRM 43 attends to two occasions in which the faithful ought to kneel: Firstly, during the Eucharistic prayer and consecration; and, secondly, after the Agnes Dei up till the reception of communion.
3. The reference to “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. [Sacrosanctum Concilium 40; Varietates legitimate 41]” applies only to the faithful kneeling after the Agnes Dei, not to the faithful’s obligation to kneel after the Sanctus and during the consecration.
4. It was the “Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way”, not the Neocatechumenal Way itself, that was in “ad experimentum” for five years.
5. Those Statutes, and the “definitive approved Statutes” do not appear to include experiments on the postures. Or, can you show me where either set of Statutes deals with permission to vary the posture of the faithful during the consecration or after the Agnes Dei?
6. It did not “become” the norm to avoid kneeling in the “ad experimentum” period, as you well know. The practices of not kneeling during these parts of the Mass were well established in the communities from the beginning.
7. Varietates legitimate provides that Episcopal (Bishop’s) Conferences can “lay down norms” for the faithful’s assistance at Mass, including postures, gestures, hymns, chants, conditions for the distribution of communion, vestments etc.
8. Perhaps you can show which Bishop’s Conference has given explicit instructions so that the “norm” is for the faithful not to kneel during the consecration, or after the Agnes Dei?
9. As you say, “the GIRM allows certain differences and adaptions to the Eucharist with the permission of the Holy See.” These differences and adaptions are always clearly described, and specific. Again, you only need point out where is the explicit approval of the Holy See, or the Bishop’s conference, for the variation of posture.
10. “the Neocatechumenal Way practices a valid liturgy approved by the Holy See”. Well, the Holy See approved the variation to the posture at the reception of communion only (ie “standing, remaining in their place”), but this is, as expected, a specific concession.
11. The NCW does not have its own liturgy. There is no Holy See approved “liturgy of the NCW”, except perhaps those activities that aren’t regulated by the liturgical books. Therefore, the NCW simply celebrates the same Mass, more or less perfectly. Insofar as the NCW varies aspects of the Mass, without explicit permission (this is what is meant by “in violation of the GIRM.”), it celebrates the Mass less perfectly.
I'd still like to know "why?"
Dear Anonymous at 4:37 p.m.,
DeleteI was there when the change was made in how we were to receive the Eucharist. I was also there when the catechists were instructing the members on how to do admonitions. This took place during the experimental stage. I heard Father Pius tell the Responsibles and Co-Responsibles that these they received those instructions from Kiko who in turn received it from the Pope.
The Statutes of the Way and the Catechetical Directory have been approved by the Pope Benedict XVI. The NCW received the endorsement of five Popes. Surely, not all five Popes could be blind? When Pope Benedict XVI heard about allege liturgical abuses in the Way, he ordered an investigation. From the time that he ordered the investigation to the time that he resigned, nothing ever came of it. In fact, when he met Kiko Arguello, the Pope did not even mention anything about liturgical abuses. By the time Pope Francis took over, he ceased all investigations of the Way. Does it ever occur to you that the reasons why nothing ever came out of those investigations was because all the allegations were unfounded? If there were truly any liturgical abuses, the Vatican would have acted on it by now.
Diana, I don't think you have answered or addressed a single objection that has been raised in these comments. If you don't know why the NCW believes its a better thing not-to-kneel, please ask one of the more initiated, and let us know.
Delete"oh no... but... but... but... the vatican works" is what they will say. And they will reply also with "It is the role of the Archbishops to protect the liturgical practices of the Diocese. Making MANY bishops at fault right?
DeleteAnd since the Eucharist is the highest form of prayer and the NCW is abusing it, why would Rome work slow? I dont know, maybe because the allegations against the NCW are false.
Dear Anonymous at 6:49 p.m.,
DeleteEven if I did ask, you would still not believe. It is already stated in the news report in my last post that the University of John Paul II stated that Kiko has "attentively the directions of the Second Vatican Council, bringing back Christians who have strayed from the ecclesia community to the foundations of the faith that spring from the Bible and from Liturgy."
Nothing ever came out of the investigations that Pope Benedict XVI started, and when Francis took over as Pope, he ceases all those investigations. All your letters to the Nuncio went unanswered. I even told you what I personally heard from Father Pius. He said that those instructions came from Kiko who in turn got it from the Pope.
Yet, you don't believe any of those things. This is why I stated in many of my comments to those who don't believe to fly to Rome and schedule an appointment to meet the Pope. And if you don't believe the Pope, then that becomes your problem.
I simply ask why you believe that it is better not-to-kneel, than it is to kneel. Can you answer that please?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:22 pm,
DeleteI already gave my answer in my comment on May 24th at 5:12 pm. We were given instructions on the Eucharist, which came from the Pope. As Catholics we are obedient to the Pope, who is the Vicar of Christ.
No, you have not answered my question. You have said why you do not kneel (ie you were told not to), but you haven't answered why it is a better thing not-to-kneel
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:29 p.m.,
DeleteDisobedience to the Pope is never a better thing. If the Pope has given us the instruction and permission not to kneel, then it is right to obey him as he is the Vicar of Christ. It is not about how I FEEL. It is a matter of faith and trust in God who knows more than I do.
Okay....so perhaps you can point to something where we might understand why the Pope(!) believes it is better not to kneel, because this is surely what you are implying when you say that the Pope has "given us the *instruction* ...not to kneel"? (Of course, we all know that he didn't give such an instruction)
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:44 a.m.,
DeleteThe Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians stand during their Eucharist. The Eastern Catholics are in communion with the Pope. Their liturgies are similar to the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The Eastern Catholics have the oldest liturgies. They're much older than the Roman Catholics and, their liturgies are accepted by Rome. In their Eucharist, they stand 90% of the time. In fact, the Eastern Catholics don't even kneel. Latin-rite Catholics, on the other hand, sit and kneel most of the time.
Furthermore, if you read the Old Testament, the Jewish people stood when the sacrifice was made to the altar. Also, in the Book of Revelations, the angels were standing as they worshipped God. Prostrating was not the only thing they did in Heaven. They also stood.
Therefore, if the Eastern Catholics, who are in communion with the Pope, are allowed to practice their liturgies (which is much older than the Roman Catholics), then I don't see why the Pope would deny us to stand in worship the way the Jewish people did and the way the Eastern Catholics are doing today,
Now, can you show evidence that the Pope did not or would not give such instructions?
"Now, can you show evidence that the Pope did not or would not give such instructions?"
DeleteYes. It is called the GIRM. And it is quite clear actually. You need to do all sorts of trickery and manipulation to ignore it (and you do).
We are not Jews, nor are we Eastern Rite Catholics. And, unfortunately, we are not angels in heaven. The NCW has been instructed numerous times to faithfully follow the (Roman Rite) liturgical books.
But since you bring up the Jews: "The prophet Daniel says: "And I knelt down
on my knees three times a day to give thanks and praise to God" (Dn 6:11). Interestingly, this passage is considered by Jews to be the basis for the three regular times of prayer at the synagogue. Moreover, the Liturgy of the Eucharist, as is generally recognized, is rooted in the Jewish Berakah
(Gk: , Lt: ). The Hebrew root of means to genuflect or
kneel, and there were genuflections in the developed Jewish form of this prayer."
Finally, Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"
Psalm 72:11 "May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!"
Job 1:20 "Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped."
Isaiah 45:23 "By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return: “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”"
You mention the book of revelation, the book of "the heavenly liturgy" from which the Church models its own liturgy. In this book there are twenty-four references to kneeling (proskynein).
Revelation 4:10 "the twenty-four elders fell down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever"
Revelation 5:14 "And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped."
Matthew 2:11 "And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him."
Matthew 8:2 ""A leper came to him and knelt before him...""
Matthew 20:20 ""Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something""
Philippians 2:10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."
In Ephesians 3:14 Paul says, “I kneel before the Father,” and in Acts 9:40 Peter “knelt down and prayed.”
St. Francis of Assisi in his Letter to all Superiors of the Friars Minor:
"When the priest is offering sacrifice at the altar or the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about, everyone should kneel down and give praise, glory, and honour to our Lord and God, living and true. "
There is plenty of scriptural support for kneeling in adoration, and there is no incompatibility in kneeling in praise and thanksgiving.
Dear Anonymous at 11:58 a.m.,
DeleteThe Roman rite also includes the Eastern rite liturgy because there is only one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. According to the weblink below:
LATIN. The Pope has several titles. He is the Bishop of Rome, the Patriarch of the West, and Vicar of the universal Church. As the Bishop of Rome he is the head of the Latin or Roman rite. This is by far the largest rite in the Church. It was founded by St. Peter in Rome around 42 A.D. The current Eucharistic liturgy was handed down more or less intact from at least the 4th century. This was the liturgy used in Rome. There were other liturgies used in the West up to the Council of Trent (1526-1570). After the Council of Trent only the Roman liturgy could be used. The only exceptions were liturgical practices that were more than 200 years old.
As the Patriarch of the West (meaning west of Jerusalem) the Pope is vicar of these other liturgical rites that date from before the Council of Trent. These rites include the Mozarabic rite from Spain, the Ambrosian rite from Milan, Italy, named after St. Ambrose (340-397), the Bragan rite from Portugal, and the order liturgies of the Dominican, Carmelite, and Carthusian orders.
As Vicar of the universal Church, the Pope is shepherd of the rites of the West and the East. The eastern rites which have a separate code of canon law, are completely equal in dignity with the rites of the West. All of these eastern ritual churches come under the jurisdiction of the Pope through the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, one of the offices of the Roman Curia.3 The rites are administered by either a Patriarch, a Major Archbishop, a Metropolitan, or have some other arrangement. Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops of their rite, and then request ecclesiastical communion from the Pope. Major Archbishops are also elected by a synod of bishops of their rite, but then are approved by the Pope before they take office. Metropolitans are picked by the Pope from a list given by a synod of bishops.4
http://www.mncuf.org/rites.htm
In other words, because the Pope is the Vicar of the UNIVERSAL Church, he can give us permission not to kneel.
As I said before, you can find standing, kneeling, and prostrating in worship in the Bible; yet, you choose to only look at the "kneeling" biblical verses. Below are verses in the Bible showing the Jewish people standing in worship:
1) In performing divine services ill it manner like the saints, Whom the God-inspired prophets Isaiah, Micah Daniel and St. John the Theologian saw "standing in the heavens next to the throne of God" (Isaiah 6:2; I Kings 22:19; Daniel 7:10; Apocalypse 7:11),
2) In the description of the blessing of Solomon's temple it is said: "The Levites and all the singers, being arrayed in white linen and having cymbals and psalteries and harps stood at the east end of the altar'' (II Chronicles 5:12); "All the congregation of Israel stood" (II Chronicles 6:2).
3) Another example from tile Bible occurs in tile description of the reign of Josaphat. In order to protect his homeland from the Ammonites and the children of Moab, he "stood in the congregation of Judah in Jerusalem, in the house of the Lord before the new court. And all Judah stood before the Lord, with their little ones, their wives, and their children" (II Chronicles 20:5, 13).
4) Ezra and Nehemiah, speaking of the services of the Jews after the Babylonian captivity, say: "And they set priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David, King of Israel" (I Ezra 3:10); "And the Levites stood according to their rank and cried with a loud voice unto the Lord their God, and the Levites caused the people to understand the law; and the people stood in their place" (Nehemiah 9:4,5; 8:7; also Matthew 6:5).
Furthermore, according to the Redemptionis Sacramentum, which we are also told to follow, it stated:
Delete21 Finally, the structures and forms of the sacred celebrations according to each of the Rites of both East and West are in harmony with the practice of the universal Church also as regards practices received universally from apostolic and unbroken tradition,[22] which it is the Church’s task to transmit faithfully and carefully to future generations. All these things are wisely safeguarded and protected by the liturgical norms.
Oh and by the way, I also forgot to mention that the Japanese Catholics in Japan ALSO got permission from the Pope to STAND in worship rather than kneel because in their culture, kneeling is viewed the same as sitting and therefore disrespectful. The Pope gave the Japanese Catholics permission to stand. So, yes, the Pope can and has given us permission to stand in the Eucharistic celebration. Whether you believe me or not is not my problem.
DeleteWhere is the pope's explicit permission for you not-to-kneel? You still haven't produced it. Every time this is raised you make some general comment of how the popes like you. Well, that is not enough. Produce the evidence to show that the pope has given you this permission.
DeleteI have not seen the concession to the Japanese people so that they are not obliged to kneel. Perhaps you can produce that document? In any case, the idea that kneeling is disrespectful in the Japanese culture is incorrect - In the Orient, bowing is the common and polite way of greeting other people. Before someone of a specially high status, people kneel and make a deep bow almost until the forehead touches the floor.
I am not arguing that there are occasions when the faithful may stand during Mass - this is clearly permitted as per the GIRM. The issue is why should you not kneel during the consecration as required by the Roman Rite books?
May I ask, what posture do you assume for private (or liturgical) adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Or do you reject that too?
Incidentally, the Scriptures you have quoted are primarily concerned with "standing before the seat of judgement" or standing so as to play an instrument or to hear the book of the law. Not in adoration or in praise and thanksgiving. There is no contradiction in these postures, nor does one exclude the other.
DeleteIsaish 6:2 speaks of the seraphim around the throne
Daniel 7:10 speaks of judgement - "the court was seated, the books opened"
Revelation 7:11 actually says the angels were standing but then, "They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God"
2 Chronicles 6:2 (I assume you mean 6:3) - the people stood for the King's blessing
2 Chronicles 20:5, 13 is as you say, but you didn't include 2 Chronicles 20:18 which follows: "18 Jehoshaphat bowed down with his face to the ground, and all the people of Judah and Jerusalem fell down in worship before the Lord"
1 Kings 22:19 and Ezra 3:10 - its not very practical for the musicians to kneel while they play, is it?
Nehemiah 8:7 and 9:4 - the people stood to hear the "book of the Law" as we do for our Gospel reading.
Matthew 6:5 - what?? Is this the clue as to why you don't kneel? I'm not sure what you're implying, but it was the hypocrites that stood!
Dear Anonymous at 3:19 p.m,
DeleteThose biblical verses were quoted to show that one can also stand before the Lord in worship just as the Eastern Catholics do. Anon. at 11:58 a.m. showed biblical verses showing that one should ONLY kneel, and this is incorrect. The Holy Bible shows that one can also worship God in standing, kneeling, and prostrating.
Dear Anonymous at 3:02 p.m.,
DeleteIf you recall, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI celebrated Mass in the Neocatechumenal Way, and some of the problems that they addressed were that the admonitions are too long and the way we receive the Body of Christ sitting down. Other things that were not a problem were never addressed. The problems that they addressed were already corrected. Other things that they did not have a problem with continued on as is.
That is the way the Catholic Church has always been. They only addressed problems. So, our written Statutes, was approved to ensure the unity between the NCW and the Holy See. Remember that the Catholic Church believes in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. We are Catholics. We are not like the Protestants who always ask "Where is that written in Scripture"?
As for Kiko, he has always been the consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity and therefore gets information directly from Rome.....just as the Statutes say. The approved Statutes stated that the International Team (in this case Kiko) must always be in contact with the Vatican and with the diocesan bishops.
Dear Catholics United,
ReplyDeleteIt does not nullify the manner in which the NCW celebrates the Eucharist. Nowhere in the Sacrosanctum Concilium does it say that it applies ONLY in mission countries. It specifies groups, peoples, regions especially in mission lands. If it says "Provisions shall also be made, when revising the liturgical books, for legitimate variations and adaptations to mission lands"....then you would have a point. But that is not what it says.
Catholic United, the NCW already has the support of five Popes. If you don't or cannot accept what the Pope endorses, you are only putting yourself outside of the Catholic Church. All five Popes cannot be blind.
The whole purpose of GIRM 43 et al is to allow for cultural differences in the Eucharist, especially those in mission countries. Read it over. Have your professor read it, have your cathechist read it. #40 in your emphasis summarizes the sections:
ReplyDelete"40. In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore: ...."
Is the Archdiocese one of those places where its circumstances, our cultural differences, where GIRM 43 applies?
Should i write this?..."If you continue to celebrate the Eucharist outside of the Liturgical Books as the last two Popes have required you to do you are only putting yourself outside of the Catholic Church. The last two Popes were not blind."
Really, you have a blog but when someone posts something contrary to your view you try to quash it with that?
Dear Anonymous at 9:13 p.m.,
DeleteThis is what it says (capitalization is my emphasis):
Provisions shall also be made, when revising the liturgical books, for legitimate variations and adaptations to different GROUPS, REGIONS, and PEOPLES, especially in mission lands.
We are an itinerant group just like Opus Dei is a group.
Standing in my country does not denote adoration. I may stand when an important person comes into the room; but, I wouldn`t kneel down before that person. Kneeling or prostration is the official position of adoration in my country. This is my culture; this is my tradition (for many generations).
DeleteI might add, not every Eastern Rite Catholic Church stands during the Eucharistic Prayer. Some, in fact, kneel and some even prostrate themselves. The Eastern Rite Catholic Church, however, does acknowledge the magnitude of Whom they are receiving, by not touching the Sacred Species. Communion is given with a spoon - Communion is considered too sacred to touch - this too can be considered as profound adoration.
In many areas that the NCW made their catechesis known, they ignored the traditions and cultures of the people when it came to Mass. Example, in Canada, it has been our tradition and our culture to kneel at the Eucharistic Prayer, not only for my generation, but my parents, and grandparents, and great grandparents. All the other alterations that the NCW comes here with are a great distraction to the solemnity of our Mass.
ReplyDeleteKiko seems to think that his Mass draws people to conversion. From what I`ve seen, it`s during the catechesis and personal testimonies that people are touched by the Spirit. Conversion seems to happen long before their introduction to the NCW Mass. Pope Benedict asked Kiko that the Saturday Mass they celebrate (which is supposed to follow what the Roman Missal-GIRM state - both words and actions) is supposed to usher them into the regular Sunday Mass - they are to `favour`` the regular Sunday Mass. That all may be one.
Dear Anonymous at 3:17 p.m.,
DeleteA person does not have to join the NCW if they don't want. And in many communities, I see the NCW doing much more than attending regular Sunday Mass, which you are very fond of. I see them getting themselves more involved in the Mass by becoming lectors, alter servers, CCD instructors, and even maintaining the Church grounds. Before I joined the Way, all I ever did was attend Sunday Mass and that's it. After being in the Way, I got out from sitting in the pews every Sunday and get more involved in helping my parish grow. I even donate more to my parish than I ever did before.
Dear Diana,
DeleteThis is commendable. However, I`m concerned for parishioners who have found themselves without regular Masses in their church because the NCW have taken over so to speak - These parishioners then leave.
I`m also concerned that the donations given to specifically the NCW which I hear are then funneled back into the NCW to further their agenda. Yes, some of it very worthwhile; but, some I fear is not. When the Eucharist is considered the source and summit of our Catholic faith, we must be very careful that we do not in any way push our own ideas in what is supposed to be Christ`s Mass. To those of us who truly believe that the NCW Mass is not approved by the Popes (and there is a tremendous amount of info to verify this), it horrifies us to think that the hundreds of beautiful priestly vocations that arise from the Way, would teach these new priests to celebrate Mass in an illicit way. Can you understand our concern.
Interesting that when the group came to our area, I was interested in the NCW, except for their Mass. I was willing to participate in their Wed. Bible meeting, but I didn`t agree with their celebration of Mass so I wouldn`t come to that. I was not welcome.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:53
DeletePeople who leave their parishes because their parish supports the Way is not the problem of the NCW. That is THEIR problem. We cannot control what they want to believe about the Way. I can attest to the fact that many of the brothers in the communities give up their time and money in helping the parish as I do. I even know a person who volunteered to fix the airconditioning in the parish for free without charging any fee to the parish. And those not walking in the Way actually think it's the parish who paid for the repairs.
I also know for a fact that the collections we do every reconciliation goes to the Parish. Those who say that the donations go back into the NCW doesn't even have any evidence to show this. There are those who constantly ask the Archbishop to show where the NCW money is going, but the Archbishop remains silent. Nevertheless, rumors are already spreading out that money goes back into the NCW without any documented evidence. Because I am a Co-Responsible walking in the Way, I know where the money is going because it is always being announced to the brothers in the Way. Only those not walking in the Way would not know because they are not there to hear the announcement.
The NCW already has the endorsement of five Popes. That is good enough for me. I trust God who is the Head of the Church. He will not lead His Church astray; therefore, all five Popes who support the Way could not be wrong and blind.
Dear Anonymous at 4:57 p.m.,
DeleteYou are always welcome to come to Way's Eucharist, but you cannot attend the celebration of the Word on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. That is only for community members.
Why not.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:48 a.m.,
DeleteThe Statutes of the Way, which was approved by the Holy See holds that the weekly celebration of the word is only for the communities. The convivinece is also only for the communities. Only the Eucharist is open to non-members. The Statutes were approved specifically for the NCW, and it says that the Eucharist is open to others. (Chapter III, Section 2, Article 13). Everything else in the Statutes are instructions for the NCW members. We are not going to disobey the Statutes.
The problem here that I see is that those who are against the NCW wants us to KNEEL. Why? Was that in Cardinal Arinze's letter?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Cardinal Arinze's letter, it stated:
5.ON THE MANNER OF RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. THIS MEANS THAT THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY MUST BEGIN TO ADOPT THE MANNER OF DISTRIBUTING THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST THAT IS PROVIDED IN THE LITURGICAL BOOKS.
The letter said that we were to follow the liturgical books REGARDING the way we DISTRIBUTE/ RECEIVE the Body of Christ. That is what the letter says. Does it say anything in there about KNEELING?? Pope Benedict XVI celebrated Mass in the Way, and the only problem he saw were the problems addressed in Arinze's letter.
This problem has already been corrected. The NCW now receives the Body of Christ standing up. Other things that were addressed in the letter were also corrected, such as the way we do admonitions.
The problem here is that people do not believe that those changes were made because they hear all the rumors that no changes have been made. And the ones spreading those rumors are those who have never even been to any of our Eucharist.
Furthermore, those spreading the rumors are also saying that we should kneel. They say that we should kneel because that is in the liturgical books. The only thing addressed in Arinze's letter is the way the Body of Christ is distributed. He clearly stated that the NCW is to adopt the manner in the way the Body of Christ is to be distributed according to the liturgical books....and this was what Pope Benedict was referring to. They also complained that the altar should not be like a table, and the Jewish menorah should not be on the table, etc., etc., etc. Those things were not in Cardinal Arinze's letter. The only changes made were all those things that were addressed in his letter.
"The problem here that I see is that those who are against the NCW wants us to KNEEL. Why? Was that in Cardinal Arinze's letter?"
ReplyDeleteNo it doesn't need to be, because it is in the GIRM, and is the normal practise of the Roman Rite. You ignore the GIRM because, as you say, Kiko tells you to. Does this not elevate Kiko above the true authority of the Church?
Dear Anonymous at 11:29 a.m.
DeleteSee my post below:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/cardinal-arinzes-letter-to-kiko.html
Dear Diane
ReplyDeleteOver the years I have seen seasoned church members accept the NCW Mass as being approved because Kiko and his followers say it has been approved. But, it still does not have recognitio. The fact you say all the Popes have approved their Mass does not make it approved. The fact that well-meaning NCW priests and bishops continue to celebrate the Mass Kiko-style does not make it approved. The Popes have seen the tremendous good within the Way - this is true - but this too does not say the NCW Mass has been approved. Pope Benedict in fact stated:
"Precisely to help the NCW to render EVEN MORE EFFECTIVE ITS EVANGELIZING ACTION IN COMMUNION WITH ALL THE PEOPLE OF GOD, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments recently imparted to you in my name CERTAIN NORMS concerning the EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION AFTER the trial period that the Servant of God John Paul II conceded. I am sure you will attentively observe THESE NORMS that reflect what is provided for in the LITURGICAL BOOKS APPROVED BY THE CHURCH. "
When asked "what is the content of these directive?" Cardinal Arinze replied: "On Dec 1 2005, at the conclusion of many talks over a period of at least two years or more, our congregation wrote a two-page letter to the leaders of the Neocatechumenal Way. I will simply give the summary: In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the NCW will accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church WITHOUT OMITTING OR ADDING ANYTHING."
Diane, you have deleted some very good responses from Anonymous(s) in regard to their concern re the NCW Mass on your blog.
That indeed reminds me of Kiko; he only gives out the information he wants everyone to believe.
My prayers go out to you, Kiko and the many members of the NCW - may your hearts not be hardened to hearing the truth about the manner the NCW Mass is celebrated.
I would have liked to have been part of the NCW; but, because their Mass has not been approved, I would refrain from going to it until it conforms to the Roman Missal-GIRM. Because of this, I was not welcomed into the group. I believe if Jesus was part of that group, He would have let me come to the Wed. portion where Scripture is shared. Peace,
That all may be one.
Dear Anonymous at 5:21 a.m.,
DeleteI do not know how many times I need to tell you that the Statutes of the Way and the Catechetical Directory has already been approved. Regarding Cardinal Arinze's letter, that has already been addressed. See my post below and the comments under the thread:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/05/cardinal-arinzes-letter-to-kiko.html
What would those in charge say if members decided that they were going to kneel in adoration of Jesus during the Consecration at the NCW Mass
ReplyDeleteWould they be prevented from doing so
Just curious
Dear Anonymous at 7:46 a.m.,
DeleteThey can kneel if they want to adore Jesus while the rest can bow. I don't think the priest will fuss over it. However, if the person kneels to try and prove a point to the NCW, then that would be a sin. It would be between him and God, who can see the hearts of all men.