Yes, folks this is now happening in AMERICA. And it started happening AFTER the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of same sex marriage. In my last entry post, two Christian ministers were told by the state of Idaho to either perform same sex marriage or go to jail. In Texas, the government has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors to turn over their sermons dealing with homosexuality. The goal of the gay activists had always been to take away our freedom and force their beliefs on everyone. It was never about equality. Welcome to the totalitarian government of the United States of America.
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Christian persecution in the US: Openly gay Houston mayor demands pastors turn over sermons
My friends, the persecution of Christian pastors has begun in this country. We previously warned about the efforts of the Freedom from Religion Foundation and its secretive settlement with the IRS allowing them to demand sermons to scrutinize for “political activity.” Well, it has indeed happened, in one of the reddest of red states in the reddest county in America: Houston, Harris County, Texas.
As reported by Fox News, “The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court. “The city’s subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. “The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions.” ADF, a nationally-known law firm specializing in religious liberty cases, is representing five Houston pastors. They filed a motion in Harris County court to stop the subpoenas arguing they are “overbroad, unduly burdensome, harassing, and vexatious.”
If there is anything that should unify Americans, it should be an assault on Christian ministers. It is absolutely amazing that the Obama administration sends a personal congratulatory note to the Islamic center in Oklahoma that spawned Alton Nolen who beheaded a 54-year-old American grandmother — and we have this openly lesbian progressive socialist tyrant allowing a subpoena against Christian pastors.
This is the test case (and as it happens I was just in Houston last week and will be back next Monday) and this is unconscionable! However, if this case is successful, it will be replicated elsewhere — and where is the Left screaming out about First Amendment rights of these pastors: “Freedom of religion and the free exercise thereof?” Where is the ACLU? After all, they care so much about the rights of unlawful enemy combatants aka Islamic jihadists and terrorists.
“Political and social commentary is not a crime,” attorney Holcomb said. “It is protected by the First Amendment.” Fox says, “the subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa. The city council approved the law in June.”
This is just how upside down Mayor Parker is and reflects her intent to establish a radical far left, gender-blind agenda and through coercion and intimidation, destroy any opposition – including church leaders. This is the tyranny of the Left and the radical gay agenda in full display. And I just have to ask, how does this bring anyone into alignment with the gay community if they are fully supportive of these initiatives?
http://allenbwest.com/2014/10/christian-persecution-us-openly-gay-houston-mayor-demands-pastors-turn-sermons/
My response to Thomas Tanaka's opinion peace today's PDN:
ReplyDeleteDear Thomas, please accept the facts. The Neocatechumenal Way is not a sect, but a Catholic itinerary, which forms legitimate faith groups in the parishes called communities. We experience our faith through these communities in Christ, in line with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Can you accept this, dear Thomas? The Way is going to stay and be part of the parishes in the long term. Therefore, peaceful coexistence of different church groups has no alternative.
The problem is not the Way, but a handful of church fundamentalists who desperately try to make an impact in opposing everything that is new. But they cannot make any real impact beyond spreading half truth and misinformation through the media. Why cannot they look at members of the Way as their sisters and brothers in Christ? Why do they manufacture poison for the soul of the believer on a daily basis through hearsay, gossip and superstition? What is their purpose? Their utterances are fuming intellectual dishonesty. Those who willingly breath in this poison become as delusional as they are. Please, do not be one of these delusional fellows and do not make Concerned Catholic a vehicle of discharging this poison. Always be critical, double check the facts and take it with a pinch of salt what you read from them.
The cause of this vituperation among the Catholic faithful on Guam is the intention of this frustrated group to politicize their opposing views on church affairs in the local media. They set up a political agenda and issue political statements in their eagerness to chase and hunt down one-by-one those whom they perceive as responsible for the successes of the Way. But who can stop success that is rooted in the spiritual need of the faithful so deeply? While professional trouble makers are employed to achieve a divisive goal of this sorrowful political agenda, the people of Guam close up and support religious freedom. Do you really believe that handful of unreasonable radicals who work 24-7 to incite, who call for uprisal and revolution, who indoctrinate you away from the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Bible?
Dear Thomas, your letter is full of political statements. Even if you do not realize, you became a tool in the hands of these church radicals. Why on earth should we move out of our parishes when we are and remain part of the parishes in the long term? The more these radicals are marginalized, the louder they try to sound. But people do not want to listen to this noise. The Catholic faithful on Guam want peace, the peace of the Lord. Let this peace be also with you.
I have read carefully Mr. JRSA's comment at Junglewatch supposedly responding to my letter published in PDN that you can also read here, above. Based on content, neither Mr. JRSA's intention nor his comment has any relation whatsoever to my letter. He did not address anything that was published in the PDN. I would be glad to reflect on any civilly written opinion piece that addresses what I had written. Sadly, Mr. JRSA's comment is not such.
DeleteNo, I don't understand you, Mr. Zoltan. You say you follow your statutes, but everybody else says you don't. So what is the truth? If your presbyters are consecrated then they are priests. But why then that both Mr. Thomas Tanaka and Mr. Gerry Taitano of CCOG call presbyters not true priests but heretics?
DeleteWhy don't you admit that you are a sect? You are separated from the church because you have your mass in the social hall and not in the church. Is this not separation from the church? If you want to be my sister and brother in faith then you should truly love the Blessed Virgin Mary. Show reverence and pay devotion to her.
About the bloody pictures of abortion, I don't like to look at them either. But when you fight abortion you have to show what it is. Don't you? My compassion goes with the aborted babies. If your true blood brother dies in combat, do you want to see his bloody corpse lying dead on the battle field? I don't think so. Because you have compassion for him and his death hurts you so bad!
My compassion also goes with the mother. I don't like her choosing abortion against a baby, but if you have a contrite heart, you should be forgiven. That is what Pope Francis told us and I agree with him. Some people accuse the Pope that he is a liberal. But I don't think he is. If he liberates women from those men who are stuck with their thinking in the Middle Ages, then he is a true Catholic. The Pope is the best Catholic ever, otherwise he would not be the Pope!
Joane Santos
Dear Joane Santos,
DeleteWhat do you have to say about Pope Francis who supports the NCW? If you cannot support what the Pope supports, then you are against the Pope and the Catholic Church.
You stated: "If you want to be my sister and brother in faith then you should truly love the Blessed Virgin Mary. Show reverence and pay devotion to her."
What makes you think that we do have no love or honor for the Blessed Virgin Mary especially in light of the fact that the NCW always display the icon of Mary with Baby Jesus? We also have many songs of Mary in the NCW......so what makes you think that we have no love or honor for the Blessed Mother of God???
"What do you have to say about Pope Francis who supports the NCW? If you cannot support what the Pope supports, then you are against the Pope and the Catholic Church. "
DeleteI wonder if you would have supported the things these popes supported, just becuase they were popes?
"NCW always display the icon of Mary with Baby Jesus? We also have many songs of Mary in the NCW"
Yes, and you call your seminaries "Redemptoris Mater"
But these are all designed to give the appearance of being Catholic. In actuality the NCW mocks the rosary (I've heard it myself at the Catechesis) and has very limited Marian devotion - lipservice mainly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes
Dear Anonymous at 11:08 pm,
DeleteYou misunderstood the NCW. The NCW does not mock the rosary. We simply tell you the truth, which is the rosary is good, but it cannot bring you salvation. Salvation comes only from God and God alone.
Dear Joane, we follow the Statutes of the Way as a regulation of Christian life in the communities. The Statutes was written for the Way and by the Way, so we have no reason not to follow it. When you deny this, you make politics out of something that is not a political question. This is what Mr. Tanaka, Mr. Taitano and others in CCoG do not comprehend, because their knowledge in faith matters is incomprehensive. They are able to repeat back what was fed into their minds at Junglewatch, but they do not truly grasp its meaning. Here is the evidence of presbyters, even you acknowledge the fact, dear Joane, that consecrated presbyters are priests. But they don't! It is because a lack of comprehension.
DeletePlease, read what Diana tells you about the Virgin Mary. When you use her name for quarrel, then it is you who is irreverent of her!
I understand that you do not like to look at bloody pictures. But Tim Rohr and his "esperansa" fanatics can not. They are as blunt as insensitive. Just like Eric Rudolph, who threw a bomb at the Atlanta Olympic Games, killing 1 and injuring 111 people. If you are truly against abortion, then you don't blame women and don't try to scare them by bloody pictures and depictions, but give them a chance and monetary means to raise their kids in dignity.
Pope Francis understands that. He has a compassionate heart, that of the Lord Jesus. If you like the Pope, dear Joane, and accept his leadership then you should be very critical of the nonsense that is spread by Junglewatch and the CCoG. You can do so much better, Joane! Why settle for the half truth if you can get the whole?
Let a genuine search for truth lead you in the path of faith.
Dear Diana, I did not misunderstand. I heard it myself. The priest (sorry, presbyter) at the catechesis described in a mocking tone how when he was young he was encouraged to pray the rosary everyday, saying "What good did it do me?", and "the Church was useless to me".
DeleteWhen I pointed out that it may have done quite a lot of good, as he was now a priest, he responded that "But that came after - the rosary had nothing to do with that".
This was in the context of four speakers, each of which had a list of criticisms about their experience in the Church in years gone by, and that it was only when they joined the NCW that they truly became converted. Its the standard story. The consequence of that argument, though, is that all the traditional devotions of the Church, such as the rosary, are put down and described as "useless to me".
Do you think that if you prayed the rosary with faith, the Blessed Virgin wouldn't assist you? Wouldn't bring you closer to her Son? If anyone was to pray the rosary with devotion, it would be inconceivable that they would not be brought into salvation through the Church.
DeleteDear Zoltan, if you truly believe this:
Delete"The Statutes was written for the Way and by the Way, so we have no reason not to follow it."
then you have an obligation to explain the following:
1. "§ 1. The pastor/parish priest and the presbyters carry out the pastoral care (see c. 519 CIC) of
those who go through the Neocatechumenal Way" (article 27). In fact, as has been attested to on this site many times, it is the catechists, not the pastor/parish priest that carries out the pastoral care. If there is an issue, a question of lifestyle, a crisis etc, the NCW member goes straight to the catechist, those who "discern" the "will of God" for them. Can you explain why this is the case, making reference to the Statutes?
2. "§ 3. The Neocatechumenal Way will seek to foster in its recipients a mature sense of
belonging to the parish and to promote relations of profound communion and collaboration with
all the faithful and with the other elements of the parish community." (article 6)
So, does the NCW have its own Holy week celebrations? Including Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, The Easter Vigil? Does the NCW have its own palms and special rite for Palm Sunday? Do those that have completed the itinerary wear special clothes at the Easter Vigil, or do they look the same as the rest of us Catholics?
3. "The celebrations of the Eucharist of the neocatechumenal communities on
Saturday evening are part of the Sunday liturgical pastoral work of the parish and are open also
to other faithful." (Article 13). So, are the NCW celebrations "open to other faithful"? Does it encourage "other faithful" to participate? Are the times and places of the celebrations advertised or made known?
4. "§ 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical
books of the Roman Rite are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See.49 Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the
neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place." (article 13)
So, are the "liturgical books of the Roman Rite" followed? Do you place flowers on the mensa of the altar, contrary to the GIRM? Do you sit to consume the sacred host, contrary to the GIRM? Do you consume the sacred host simultaneously with the priest, again contrary to the GIRM? In what part of the Roman Missal are the questions of children at the Easter Vigil? In which part of the Roman Missal is the ingestion of milk and honey , as it is done in the Easter Masses?
5. "§ 4. The celebration of the Eucharist in the small community is prepared under the guidance
of the presbyter" (article 13) Can you say this is true, or is it that there is minimal or no guidance from the "presbyter" in relation to the preparation of the celebration - particularly where the celebrant is not the usual NCW priest?
Thankyou in advance for answering these questions.
Peter
Dear Anonymous at 11:24 am,
DeleteThat is not mocking. Do you know what mockery is? A priest who is telling his life experience is not doing any mocking, but relating how praying the rosary every day did not do anything to him. He felt the Church was useless. There are actually some Catholics who felt that going to Church was useless and therefore never came back. Some of our Catholic brothers went to the Protestant churches. That is the truth. That is reality because for them praying the rosary every day and going to church did not do anything for them. Praying the rosary everyday does not do anyone any good if they have no concept of what the rosary is. People often attend Church not because they want to but out of obligation or to fulfil an obligation.
The priest is correct. That came after. He first had to learn what it means to be a Christian, then he can appreciate praying the rosary because he would now have a concept of it. He can appreciate attending Mass because of love of God rather than fulfilling an obligation. The NCW taught them made them come to this appreciation. This is why the Catholic Church is rich in many organizations. The NCW is not for everyone. Sometimes, a person comes closer to Christ when joining the Legion of Mary or the Opus Dei. And sometimes, we can come closer to Christ by joining the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 11:26 am,
DeleteYou asked: "Do you think that if you prayed the rosary with faith, the Blessed Virgin wouldn't assist you?"
When a person dies, God is not going to ask you how many times you pray the rosary. Having a prayerful life is great and can bring you closer to God. One can know when they are closer to God when they live a life of chastity and virtue. However, as you know, there are people who pray only with their mouths and not with their hearts. In fact, they pray so fast that they do not even wait for everyone else to finish the response. Then they are those who pray the rosary while they are still co-habituating with their boyfriend or girlfriend.
Your idea of faith is worrying. It is not an intellectual process whereby you must have a "concept of it". Little children are not theologians - they are simple and trusting - and yet Jesus Christ taught that it was to such as those that the kingdom belongs.
Delete"Praying the rosary everyday does not do anyone any good if they have no concept of what the rosary is"
While it may be true that the richness of the Rosary may not be evident to one who treats faith casually, to suggest that the Rosary is useless for one of poor faith is a mockery in itself, and demonstrates a lack of confidence in God. If one with a poor faith were to pray the rosary, it would not be long before their faith were deepened. The Blessed Virgin is our Mother, and mothers do not leave their children unassisted - especially the ones that need it the most.
The priest is not correct. How does he not know that it was the fact of his praying the rosary as a young person that gave him the grace to start down the path that lead to priesthood? Again, it is a mockery of the Rosary and of devotions in general to dismiss such things in this way. Rather the description of faith that you give is a gnostic one.
"That came after". Well, he wasn't a priest when he was a child, if that is what you mean. I suspect though that you similarly believe that only the NCW can truly save, and that traditional teachings and devotions of the Church are useless. Quite a revealing comment actually Diana. And if you think that in the NCW, people do not do certain things because of a sense of "obligation" you are seriously deluded.
Isn't it curious to you that Jesus didn't speak of an "Adult faith" or the need for a "concept of it". He instead pointed out the children you simply trust, as an example for us. Your whole "neo-catechesis" is built on a lie - or at the very least, a mistake on what faith actually is.
If you truly believe that God is actually your father, that Mary is actually your mother, and that Jesus is actually your brother, friend, Lord and Savior, then they will father you, mother you and save you.
Dear Anonymous at 2:17 pm,
DeleteJesus used children as an example because they do not question anything. The kind of faith that children have is a faith that questions nothing. They are not going to ask for proof or evidence. This is the kind of faith that you are against because you need proof of everything we say and do.
As for the adult faith, that was mentioned by the Apostle Paul who had the Holy Spirit in him. So, it was the Holy Spirit who spoke about the need of an adult faith.
"Jesus used children as an example because they do not question anything. The kind of faith that children have is a faith that questions nothing."
DeleteYou'd like that to be true, wouldn't you, as the NCW does not allow questions, does it?
It is a little more nuanced than that, though Diana. The child is honest, open and trusting. The child is innocent. These are the characteristics that Jesus is extolling. And in fact, if you know any children, you will know that they ask plenty of questions. Elsewhere we read in the Gospel (Matthew) that just as children trust their earthly fathers, we should trust that our “Father in heaven will give good gifts to those who ask him”.
"This is the kind of faith that you are against because you need proof of everything we say and do."
How about you level that accusation at the Church, for it is the Church that insists that faith is taught clearly and unambiguously? That the NCW considers questions and proof as suspect is only more indication of its distance from the Church.
"However, as you know, there are people who pray only with their mouths and not with their hearts."
DeleteYes, and there are those that say they are obedient, but ignore the lawful authority of the Church, preferring human masters.
"In fact, they pray so fast that they do not even wait for everyone else to finish the response. Then they are those who pray the rosary while they are still co-habituating with their boyfriend or girlfriend."
Yes again, but it is wise not to try to judge the heart of others, particularly in regard to how they pray. In any case, we are not talking only about those who pray poorly. The NCW has a disdain for traditional devotions, including the rosary, on the basis that it is superstition, not true faith. And this is where the Catholic ought to object.
Does anyone in the NCW ever read the Pope's encyclicals?
DeletePope Pius XII, Mediator Dei:
"173. When dealing with genuine and solid piety We stated that there could be no real opposition between the sacred liturgy and other religious practices, provided they be kept within legitimate bounds and performed for a legitimate purpose. In fact, there are certain exercises of piety which the Church recommends very much to clergy and religious.
174. It is Our wish also that the faithful, as well, should take part in these practices. The chief of these are: meditation on spiritual things, diligent examination of conscience, enclosed retreats, visits to the blessed sacrament, and those special prayers in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary among which the rosary, as all know, has pride of place.[163]
175. From these multiple forms of piety, the inspiration and action of the Holy Spirit cannot be absent. Their purpose is, in various ways, to attract and direct our souls to God, purifying them from their sins, encouraging them to practice virtue and, finally, stimulating them to advance along the path of sincere piety by accustoming them to meditate on the eternal truths and disposing them better to contemplate the mysteries of the human and divine natures of Christ. Besides, since they develop a deeper spiritual life of the faithful, they prepare them to take part in sacred public functions with greater fruit, and they lessen the danger of liturgical prayers becoming an empty ritualism.
176. In keeping with your pastoral solicitude, Venerable Brethren, do not cease to recommend and encourage these exercises of piety from which the faithful, entrusted to your care, cannot but derive salutary fruit. Above all, do not allow - as some do, who are deceived under the pretext of restoring the liturgy or who idly claim that only liturgical rites are of any real value and dignity - that churches be closed during the hours not appointed for public functions, as has already happened in some places: where the adoration of the august sacrament and visits to our Lord in the tabernacles are neglected; where confession of devotion is discouraged; and devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, a sign of "predestination" according to the opinion of holy men, is so neglected, especially among the young, as to fade away and gradually vanish. Such conduct most harmful to Christian piety is like poisonous fruit, growing on the infected branches of a healthy tree, which must be cut off so that the life-giving sap of the tree may bring forth only the best fruit."
Yes - "cannot but derive salutary fruit"
Dear Anonymous at 3:47 pm,
DeleteThen Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. (John 20:29-30).
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. (Matthew 8:9-10)
It takes great faith to believe and obey without questioning just as the Holy Bible says.
"It takes great faith to believe and obey without questioning just as the Holy Bible says. "
DeleteObey without questioning? Oh yes, the virtue of "obey without questioning". Where would we find that virtue in the catechism Diana?
Anyway, I'll see your long-bow quotes, and raise you another more relevant one:
"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good. " (1 Thessalonians 5)
It takes great courage to test the teaching of one who claims authority and prophecy, and who is adored in a cult of personality, but is really just a fraud.
Dear Anonymous at 7:18 pm,
DeleteCCC 1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, holding them in respect and affection.......
my dear diana, your reply to Anonymous at 7:18 pm
Deleteand to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, are you referring to kiko or Pope Francis
That is not "obey without question", but rather "obey and submit" to the "Church leaders". Try again.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:19 pm, Kiko is not Church leader. The Pope is.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:10 pm. Do you know what it means to submit or be submissive? It means to yield to authority without any resistance. So, that fits under "obey without question."
Dear Diana,
DeleteBut how can you know who to trust and believe if even the church leaders are not in agreement? There are church leaders who interpret Holy Father's intentions in support of the Way, and those that do not. So, to say "obey w/o question or obey and submit", it is not as cut and dry as you think. In fact, I believe somewhere it is also written that is our duty to question and challenge when we think we are being led astray. (Please forgive me for not using the exact quote/reference. I'll have to look for it.)
In this day and age, it is very difficult to follow blindly--even those in authority.
Dear Anonymous at 11:48 am,
DeleteThose who interpret the Holy Father's intentions as not supporting the Way is the one you do not trust. You can read and you can see. Where in the Pope's speech did he excommunicate the Way or label the Way as not Catholic? The photos of the Pope together with Kiko says a thousand words.
This is laughable. The Pope could not excommunicate a method of Christian formation! Excommunication applies to people not methods.
DeleteIn any case, it has been documented here many times the various reprimands made by popes to the NCW - including Pope Benedict with respect to the liturgy; Pope Francis' three "recommendations" (ignored); and Pope Francis' alleged statement to "correct" the NCW.
If a parent, seeing their child doing some praiseworthy act, tells them "I approve of what you are doing", that does not give the child permission to do anything they wish. You argue this fallacy all the time.
Finally, the photos of the Pope say what? The Pope is photographed with all sorts of people, including non-believers, Jews, protestants and transgenders. Are we to believe that he "approves" of the choices and acts these people make?
Of course we should question what we are told, even by our leaders. Do you think that Cardinal Kasper is correct about communion for the divorced and for active homosexuals? Do you think it is sinful to question that "leader's" position?
Dear Anonymous at 2:51 pm,
DeleteExcuse me, but wasn't the SSPX excommunicated? The Pope can excommunicate Kiko and the Way. After all even The Protestants of the 16th century were excommunicated. How many Jews and non- Christians do you see the Pope supporting and endorsing?
No, individual members of the SSPX were excommunicated for a time
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:37 pm,
DeleteAccording to Wikipedia ( capitalization is mine):
In his letter of 10 March 2009 concerning his remission of the excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St Pius X, Pope Benedict XVI reaffirmed: "Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, THE SOCIETY has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."[17]
Yes, the "excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St Pius X".
DeleteThese bishops are individuals. You might like to recant your previous views now.
The SOCIETY was not excommunicated, but rather had "no canonical status". Quite different things you know.
According to the Catholic Encycopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm)
Delete"Consequently excommunication can be inflicted only on baptized and living persons."
Dear Anonymous at 10:27 am, and 10:29 am,
DeleteFor your information, a society can be excommunicated. According to the weblink below:
Members of multiple organizations in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska were excommunicated by Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz in March 1996 for promoting positions he deemed "totally incompatible with the Catholic faith".[53] The organizations include Call to Action, Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, the Freemasons, and the Society of St. Pius X. The Vatican later confirmed the excommunication of Call to Action members in November 2006.[53]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
This new topic on excommunication started because I stated that Rome can excommunicate the Way. SSPX does not have any canonical status. Well, the NCW does. The NCW is recognized by the Catholic Church. We have a status in the Catholic Church and the RMS are legitimate and can exercise its ministry.....unlike the SSPX.
"MEMBERS of multiple organizations in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Lincoln Nebraska were excommunicated"
DeleteYes.
Dear Anonymous at 11:55 am,
DeletePlease read the rest of the paragraph. It stated:
"The organizations include Call to Action, Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, the Freemasons, and the Society of St. Pius X. The Vatican later confirmed the excommunication of Call to Action members in November 2006.[53]".
Yes.
Delete"The Vatican later confirmed the excommunication of Call to Action MEMBERS in November 2006.[53]". "
Dear Anonymous at 3:50 pm,
DeleteAre there any members in Call to Action who were NOT excommunicated?
I don't know, but that is not relevant. The fact remains that excommunication applies to individuals not groups, even if those individuals incur excommunication by virtue of being members of a group. The NCW is not a group though is it? It is an itinerary, so obviously this is a different situation.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:15 pm,
DeleteALL members in Call to Action are excommunicated because the organization itself teaches a doctrine contradictory to Catholic teaching. What makes an organization an organization is the people. Without the people, there would be no organization. The NCW consist of communities (people). Without communities, there would be no NCW. It is the same with the Church. The Church is an assembly of people.
DeleteIs CCOG like call to action?
Dear Peter, Anonymous September 15, 2015 at 11:59 AM,
Deleteanswering your questions:
1. "§ 1. The pastor/parish priest and the presbyters carry out the pastoral care (see c. 519 CIC) of those who go through the Neocatechumenal Way" (article 27).
Yes, this happens as much as possible.
2. "§ 3. The Neocatechumenal Way will seek to foster in its recipients a mature sense of
belonging to the parish and to promote relations of profound communion and collaboration with
all the faithful and with the other elements of the parish community." (article 6)
Our Eucharist celebrations are open to all in the parish.
3. "The celebrations of the Eucharist of the neocatechumenal communities on
Saturday evening are part of the Sunday liturgical pastoral work of the parish and are open also
to other faithful." (Article 13). So, are the NCW celebrations "open to other faithful"? Does it encourage "other faithful" to participate? Are the times and places of the celebrations advertised or made known?
Please, do come to the parish and ask for time and location.
4. "§ 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical
books of the Roman Rite are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See.49 Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the
neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place." (article 13)
So, are the "liturgical books of the Roman Rite" followed?
We are in no violation of any rule.
5. "§ 4. The celebration of the Eucharist in the small community is prepared under the guidance
of the presbyter" (article 13) Can you say this is true, or is it that there is minimal or no guidance from the "presbyter" in relation to the preparation of the celebration - particularly where the celebrant is not the usual NCW priest?
Yes, presbyters are there with as as much as their time allows.
Dear Zoltan, do you actually call that a reply?
DeleteLet's try again:
1.In fact, as has been attested to on this site many times, it is the catechists, not the pastor/parish priest that carries out the pastoral care. If there is an issue, a question of lifestyle, a crisis etc, the NCW member goes straight to the catechist, those who "discern" the "will of God" for them. Can you explain why this is the case, making reference to the Statutes?
2. So, does the NCW have its own Holy week celebrations? Including Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, The Easter Vigil? Does the NCW have its own palms and special rite for Palm Sunday? Do those that have completed the itinerary wear special clothes at the Easter Vigil, or do they look the same as the rest of us Catholics?
3. Are the times and places of the celebrations advertised or made known?
4. So, are the "liturgical books of the Roman Rite" followed? Do you place flowers on the mensa of the altar, contrary to the GIRM? Do you sit to consume the sacred host, contrary to the GIRM? Do you consume the sacred host simultaneously with the priest, again contrary to the GIRM? In what part of the Roman Missal are the questions of children at the Easter Vigil? In which part of the Roman Missal is the ingestion of milk and honey , as it is done in the Easter Masses?
5. Can you say this is true, or is it that there is minimal or no guidance from the "presbyter" in relation to the preparation of the celebration - particularly where the celebrant is not the usual NCW priest?
So, how about you say more than one line assertions, and that you actually address the above questions. Otherwise you run the risk of the impartial observer believing that you have no substance to your claims.
Thank you, Peter
I am confused, Mr. Zoltan. Your responses to Peter are too short. Peter asked you questions in several lines, but you only answered in one line. This is very confusing. Why don't you address Peter's questions in detail? You are responsible for these answers because you are a member of the neo and we know your name. We cannot trust others with fake names. Don't you respect us? So how do you dare not to answer? You run the risk, as Peter says, that there is no substance. Is this true, Mr. Zoltan? It would be very disappointing.
DeleteJoane Santos
Dear Joane, I have already answered all questions of Peter, who is demanding more. I feel sorry for him as he obviously did not pay attention and just repeats the same. The only reason I am responding now is that you still feel confused and I would not take it on me not to help you out of your confusion, dear Joane. ;)
DeleteIf you truly want to know the answer for some question, you have to make your own effort of understanding. Otherwise your question is just dangling over nothingness meaninglessly. When I say you should come and ask people at the parishes, it is because they are the ones with the answers. I am not a responsible, not even a co-responsible. If you cannot trust people with fake names, then come to the parishes and meet real people with real names. I am not the only one, actually, I am not even among the better ones. We all have failures in the eye of Him who knows our hearts.
The Way is a Christian itinerary, a formation of heart and soul in the faith of Jesus Christ. This is the first thing you should understand. Then all other pieces will fall into place. We come together and read the Bible on a regular basis. Do you? I might be wrong, but I don't see other Catholic groups to be zealous in reading and spreading the Gospel. Blessed be your heart, Joane, if you do.
I respect you and I ask you to also respect us. This is the Alpha of any further dialogue. We do follow our Statutes that was written by members of the Way, approved by the dicasteries in Rome. If you have evidence to the contrary, then I dare you to present it in a mature manner for digestion. We would not turn away from responding. We are not a sect and not a cult. If you have evidence to the contrary, then I dare you to come up with your evidence in a respectful way and we will respond. But if you fail the Alpha, then how could you expect the Omega? Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega who makes us sisters and brothers in Him. I hope you see my point, Joane.
Regarding substance, well, if you miss substance, you may look for a dealer. Lol! But I cannot recommend it, because substance abuse is illegal. What is more, substance dependency may have a heavy impact on you and cause harmful effects on your body and mind. So stick with those substances that are healthy and legal. God bless you, dear Joane.
"We do follow our Statutes that was written by members of the Way, approved by the dicasteries in Rome. If you have evidence to the contrary, then I dare you to present it in a mature manner for digestion. "
DeleteThe "evidence" is in the questions you failed to answer. One can only conclude that you are full of air, and lack any real understanding.
Oh-huh, Mr. Zoltan, are you are being funny, sir? I don't think Peter talked about substance in that sense. But whatever. I have no evidence to the contrary, that the neo is in violation of the statutes or is a sect/cult. I truly have no idea. But I read about this a lot and I thought somebody should ask it. Peter just did. If you are not responsible to answer, then who is?
DeleteI did not say I can trust you because you have a real name, Mr. Zoltan. No matter what, I have a respect for you as a person of Catholic faith. But I cannot trust those who have no real names on either of the blogs. It is very confusing to talk to an anonymous and then another anonymous is joining the conversation and you don't even know who is who anymore. An anonymous would write very unchristian things because he feels safe from being caught. It is ridiculous, because whatever was said, who said that? Who, an anonymous? I don't know!
I have no evidence and Peter did not talk about evidence either, only questions. Are questions not evidence for you, Mr. Zoltan? I ask this, because a good question is often more powerful than any statement. I wanted to ask about your statue, why is so important for you? How does it look like? I think Peter has serious doubts about your statue.
I understand that you want to be our sisters and brothers. Okay, let it happen. As far as I am concerned, you are my sisters and brothers. Is this good enough? But then why do you do everything apart from us? If you are my sister and brother, then I expect you to be with me sometime. St. Teresa of Avila was burning in zeal for Jesus. He is the only Alpha and Omega to burn for, isn't He? I am trying to learn Teresa's burning zeal. Do you want to burn with me sometime, Mr. Zoltan, together with your whole community? As my sisters and brothers in Christ. That would be really something big! Are you ready? You sister in Christ,
Joane Santos
She is not being persecuted because she's a Christian, she's being persecuted because she's not doing her job. If it's against her religion then she has to find another job. Being part of the the United States being tolerant to people with other ideas, culture and lifestyle. Although you like to think that the US is a Christian country, it is not. It is a country of all religions and all lifestyles. That's what makes the US the greatest country to live. You take that away and that's when all hell breaks loose. No one is telling you how to live your life as a Christian. Giving same sex marriages license is not forcing you to be gay. What if a Muslim was behind the counter and said he didn't believe in giving Christians a marriage license because it's against his religion, are you okay with that? Of course not. No one is telling you how to live your life why should you care how other live theirs. Stop being a high almighty self righteous hypocrite. .
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:39 pm,
DeleteWhere in my entry post did I say that the U.S. Is a Christian country??? The title of my post is "freedom of religion in danger." Did you read my entry post? Why are pastors being forced to submit their sermons to the government? Not only is freedom of religion at stake but the freedom of expression is also being suppressed.
Again, to J.R.San Agustin September 9, 2015 at 10:20 AM in Junglewatch, I have no idea what you are talking about and why are you addressing that to me. If you could just refer to anything I have ever written in this matter, then maybe I could think of responding. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMr. Zoltan, I am so confused because you say you don't have idea what is being asked. Don't you follow the conversation? If I may ask you, why don't you answer Mr. Tanaka's questions for a starter? Haven't you read them? Here are a few of these questions. I break it down for easier digestion:
Delete1. about annoyance:
TANAKA TO THE ZOLTAN: "YOU ARE A COMPLETE ANNOYANCE!"
2. about the statutes:
I will be happy to call you Catholic if you adhere to the 2008 Statute that replaced the 2008 provisional statute that was given on a trial basis.
3. about being a sect:
There are other elements of your Sect that are contrary to the Catholic Faith.
4. about presbyters, assets and Our Blessed Mother:
If your Sect is one with the Catholic Church, why then do you have your own exclusive Presbyters? Why was the most valuable asset of the Guam Catholics deeded over to the NCW? Why the irreverence to Our Blessed Mother, who has protected Guam with Her Special Blessings?
5. about purgatory:
The notion that there is no purgatory is a Protestant belief. How then can you claim to be part of the Catholic Church?
6. about black trash bag collection and Chuck White's reporting:
How about the “black trash bags”? The money collected in these trash bags are held exclusively for the NCW and not contributed toward the parishes, the facilities of which the NCW continues to use. Has there ever been an accounting of these revenues? What about the “hard assets” being “donated” as evidenced by the reporting of Chuck White. Who now owns these assets? Why do you not pose these questions to your leaders?
7. about sectarian teaching:
I am now urging you to discern what is being taught to you and truly understand what is being taught by your Sect.
8. about 1000 year of heresies:
Our one true Church has withstood the test of time, withstood the heresies and other challenges that have come its way for millennia, because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
9. about illusions:
But illusions are not reality. The CCOG words are based on fact. Every single statement is backed by documentation to show it is indeed the truth. You have your words without anything to back it up so basically, you have nothing.
10. about taking over our parishes:
Just practice your religion without hijacking our parishes and without trying to convert us Catholics. We have tolerated you for the past 20 years but we will push back now. We will not let you take over our parishes. We decline your “invitation to joy”. We will not be converted to the WAY.
So how can you say, Mr. Zoltan, you did not get your questions? Are you trying to confuse me? Please, don't do it. We will figure out everything, anyway. You have 10 serious questions here for you, listed from 1 to 10. So you'd be better to clarify on these for a peace of mind. Thanks.
Joane Santos
Dear Joane,
DeleteThis is why the Archbishop remains silent. First of all, the first one is not even a question, but a judgment. The rest have either been answered or are plain rumors. The NCW believes in Purgatory and that Jesus is NOT a sinner; however, you still believe those rumors despite what the NCW says. As for question 6, did you ever bother to go to any of the parishes where the NCW is and ask the parish accountant if the NCW ever contributed to the parish??? No, you did not. You simply chose to believe the false rumors.
my dear diana, is this really why the Archbishop remains silent... or does he remains silent because he is still looking for that document he says he has but CAN NOT FIND... Mr. Tanaka is still waiting
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:47 pm,
DeleteDid you honestly think that the Archbishop or the NCW would provide Mr. Tanaka with the document showing that the NCW was given permission....especially since we already know that the jungle is only going to misinterpret the document as they always do. Why did you think that the Archbishop would not allow anyone to copy, Xerox, or photograph the document showing that the RM seminary belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana??
All Mr. Tanaka and the jungle ever did was spread rumors. They say that the NCW does not believe in Purgatory. REALLY? What document do you have specifically saying.......and I mean SPECIFICALLY saying that the NCW does not believe in Purgatory? You do not have any. Mr. Tanaka and the jungle say that the NCW does not believe in the Holy Trinity. Where is the document specifically saying that. Rather, you ignore the fact that Kiko Arguello mention the "Holy Trinity." According to Kiko Arguello in his interview with EWTN, he stated:
" What I said before in my testimony: Christ’s Spirit entering you gives witness that God Loves you, that you won’t die; you’re inhabited by the Holy Spirit, inhabited by the Holy Trinity."
http://www.camino-neocatecumenal.org/neo/iniciadores%20camino/entrevista%20kiko%20ewtn%20ingl.htm
All along while you and the jungle spread this false rumor that the NCW does not believe in the Holy Trinity, you ignore Kiko's own words when he mentions the "Holy Trinity" in his interview with EWTN.
And now you want the Archbishop to provide you with the document when all along you failed to show any supporting document specifically stating exactly what you are stating. Why does Mr. Tanaka want the document?? What for???? We already know that he is not interested in the truth because he has already labeled the NCW a heretic without even first seeing the document. By the way, we are still waiting for your evidence showing that the repairs on the Church is a scam used against the insurance company to get money from them.
my dear diana, why are you ranting about what was NOT asked of YOU
Delete"Did you honestly think that the Archbishop" will find when it, when it is not even in your 2008 statutes,
so what I heard come out of his mouth, was not what he should have said, and yes I will ignore Kiko and LISTEN to POPE FRANCIS when he says HAVE YOUR STATUTE IN HAND....
which is WHY the Pope said IT....
Dear Anonymous at 6:36 am,
DeleteI have been saying all along that permission was granted to the NCW by Pope Benedict XVI to celebrate the Mass the way we do. Are you suggesting that we should disobey The Pope who gave us that permission? We follow our Statutes, but we also have to follow the instructions given to us by then Pope Benedict XVI.
Dear Joane, why do you think I am the right person to answer Mr. Tom Tanaka's questions? Is not he addressing these questions to me only because I am the only person in the Way whose name he actually knows? In fact, Diana had answered all these questions in all details on this blog repeatedly. So why don't you just put on your reading glasses and read what she had written?
Delete1. I read Mr. Tom's letter and could not find this expression ever written by him. It tells me a lot about the integrity of Mr. Tom that he allowed the Rohr to falsify his letter by including this farce. Is not he the one who is a "complete annoyance"? rotfl
2. This sentence does not make any sense whatsoever. Please check the dates and the years and do not spread false information about the statutes of the Way.
3. This is a political statement. Pure and simple. Also a big fat lie. You recognize a political statement when it has no relation to the facts. But hey, what do you expect when you mix politics and religion? Wrong mixture.
4. As I have told this before, a presbyter is another name for priest. It refers to the role of a priest when he presides over a celebration in the Way. A presbyter is the priest who is presiding. I don't know about asset deeded over. This asset was protected from being sold. We revere the Blessed Mary as a holy saint of the Church. I have no idea what Mr. Tom is talking about. Have you, Joane?
5. Purgatory is a place of transition from earth to heaven. Do you have a different view, Mr. Tom?
6. Chuck White's pieces are politically charged accusations that have no bearing to reality. He systematically twists facts to distort the truth and, as a consequence, he draws the wrong conclusion. The fact is that the Way is here to stay in the long term. Please, try to accept this fact without murmur. Then you also will be able to rejoice over your sisters and brothers who revitalize your church.
7. This is an arrogant political statement again. Do you ever notice? Joane, please help Mr. Tom to come to terms with reality. It is not his job to decide if a faith group is a sect or not. So why don't we just stay within our role as regular parishioners without going into dirty politics? The Neocatechumenal Way teaches the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is an itinerary to deepen your faith and experience the Holy Spirit in a community setting.
8. What millennia? As I read the history books, the Catholic faith arrived to Guam by the Spanish colonizers a couple hundred years ago. By the way, hating your sister and brother because they are Catholics: is this not a heresy, Mr. Tom?
9. The letter of Mr. Tom is showing that statements made by CCoG are nothing more than fabrications and are not based on fact or any evidence. Don't you agree, Joane? These charges are desperate attempts to politicize church matters in order to incite emotions. CCoG members openly admitted that they want uprisal and revolution. It is not the spirit of truth, it is Is the flawed "spirit" of the sickle and the hammer. lol!
10. I have never hijacked anyone's parish and I have never prevented anybody from attending regular church masses. So what is the point?
I hope, dear Joane, that you will carefully read through my answers. The true followers of Christ are destined to love each other. The only way to ease your confusion is to accept the facts, cheer the growth of faith and strength of the Catholic believers of Guam. I wish you good luck with that!
"Are you suggesting that we should disobey The Pope who gave us that permission?"
DeleteYou already do. You have no evidence that Pope Benedict gave this alleged permission. You do however have evidence that he:
1. Gave instructions via Cardinal Arinze to change the way communion was received to the "normal way"
2. Re-itereated this instruction in his address to the NCW in 2006
3. placed the same instruction in footnote 49 of the approved statutes
4. Spoke again about the liturgy in his address of 2012, describing how the celebration in small communities should lead to celebration in the large ecclesial community (the parish)
5. Was compromised by the vatileaks scandal which involved the NCW trying to get permission for its irregular Eucharistic practices in 2012
6. described as "banal" the changes to the liturgy
7. continually insisted that the NCW follow the approved liturgical books "without omitting or adding anything"
8. only ever personally gave communion on the tongue; and
9. referred the NCW for investigation by the Congregation for the Divine Worship, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
And yet, you think we are so stupid as to believe that he was the one who gave secret permission to Kiko (something that is never done in relation to liturgical celebrations - ever).
That is why the Archbishop said he had to "find it" - ie the "permission". Because the Archbishop knows what you seemingly do not, namely that the Church does not ever make verbal and secret alterations to the Mass.
Dear Anonymous at 10:36 am,
DeleteThis is the reason why the Archbishop chose not to reveal any documents to your and why Rome remains silent. I said that we have the permission of the Pope to celebrate the way we do the Mass. The Archbishop has said this, but you have already labeled and judged the NCW disobedient regardless of what we said to you.
You have "said" it? Is that supposed to be proof of something? Answer the previous post if you can.
DeleteAnd what exactly are you saying is "is the reason why the Archbishop chose not to reveal any documents to your and why Rome remains silent"? That Pope Benedict indicated that he wasn't happy with the NCW Mass?
The simple solution to avoid what you think is "labelling" and "judgement" is to produce the "permission". But you won't because there isn't any. If there was, the Archbishop would have produced it by now.
Dear Anonymous at 12:18 pm,
DeleteDid you not say that you did not have a problem??? Do you honestly think that releasing that document would resolve the division against a small group of people whose only agenda is to remove the Archbishop and destroy the NCW no matter what the cost? They were the ones who misconstrued and misinterpret every document including the document ensuring that the RM seminary belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana.
Um sorry Diana, but which "document" are you referring to? The "verbal" document given to Kiko?
DeleteYou have told us continually that the permission was verbal, and now you suggest that there is a document of "permission"?
If such a document did actually exist, it would be absolutely to your benefit to show it, as that would cease all reason to criticise the so far unpermitted aspects of the NCW Mass. There would be no sense in keeping it hidden if it actually gave the permission you suggest. So no, I don't buy that excuse.
Presumably, if such a document exists, it would be an official one, not just some email from Kiko to Gennarini or something similar, in which case, it would not be open to be misinterpreted or misconstrued.
Would you say that the Church should not have issued the GIRM in writing because it might be misinterpreted (think of your explanation about "concelebration") or misconstrued (the NCW ignores completely the instructions about flowers on the mensa of the altar, for example).
And finally, you may be getting me confused with someone else. I certainly did not say that I did not "have a problem". The problem is obvious - you have no permission, and by your liturgical actions you deliberately betray the Church and Jesus Christ.
Dear Zoltan, you did not clarify anything. What you say is more confusing than ever. You say Tim Rohr added something to Tom Tanaka's letter that originally was not there. I don't think so. Mr. Rohr is a honest gentleman and public person who would never do any such thing. Tom made a point that you have to follow your statutes to be Catholic. Are you following your statutes?
DeleteCalling your church group a sect is not a political statement. Politics is like electing a president or the war or the gasoline price. That is politics. Sect is no politics. Sect is what was not approved by Vatican. Your group is not approved, especially when you guys sit down during Eucharist. Chuck said that and I rather believe him than Diana. That is why Tom Tanaka wants you to leave our parishes. Why don't you listen to Tom? He is a well respected business man who tells the truth.
If you accept purgatory that is fine with me. But how about disrespecting the Virgin Mary? For Catholics she is like our Heavenly Mother. Co-Redemptix, Mediatrix and Advocatrix. Did not you know? How can you say a presbyter is a priest? Are they consecrated? Are they part of the holy priesthood?
We don't hate our sisters and brothers. But why are you our sisters and brothers? Our sisters and brothers are those who share our faith. Do you share our one and true Catholic faith? Then why do you collect in black trash bag? That is not a Catholic thing to do at all! Pope Francis said that women who had abortion should be forgiven. I agree with him. No Catholic should hate a woman. Thank you very much!
Joane Santos
Dear Anonymous at 1:25 pm,
DeleteActually, I did at one time stated that the NCW celebrates exactly the same way worldwide. This cannot happen if the instructions were given verbally. Human error is much higher when instructions are given verbally. Therefore, a written instruction exists.
You stated: "If such a document did actually exist, it would be absolutely to your benefit to show it, as that would cease all reason to criticise the so far unpermitted aspects of the NCW Mass."
This is false. The Archbishop proved three reports showing that the RM Seminary is under the Archdiocese of Agana. There was the ownership report, the civil law report, and canon law report. Yet, CCOG and the jungle are still crying that the Archbishop gave away the RM Seminary.
If you feel that we are in violations of the liturgy, then write to the Vatican and tell them to discipline us or excommunicate Kiko Arguello if you feel that we are deliberately being disobedient.
"the NCW celebrates exactly the same way worldwide. This cannot happen if the instructions were given verbally. Human error is much higher when instructions are given verbally. Therefore, a written instruction exists. "
DeleteSo, are you saying that you have seen the written permission then?
Or is it actually the case that you, personally, and every other member of the NCW, do what you do in the NCW Mass because you have been told to?
I think we all know the answer to that - and I think we can all see how that answer negates your assertion.
Dear Anonymous at 12:19 am,
DeleteIn 2008, the instructions were read to is at the Beginning of the year convivience. When the change was first made in 2008, Father Pius made an error while he was instructing us on how to receive the Body of Christ. He corrected himself. He was looking down at a paper in front of him and proceeded to tell us how to receive the Body of Christ. He said that "these instructions came from Kiko who got it from the Pope. So this is how the Pope wants us to receive the Body of Christ."
He said that "these instructions came from Kiko who got it from the Pope....."
DeleteThis is second-hand information. Don't you people even want to see the actual instruction in writing since it diverts from the norm?
Dear Anonymous at 10:34 am,
DeleteI remember Father Pius saying that the instructions came from Kiko who got it from the Pope. If the NCW really wanted to brainwash us, they would simply say that it came directly from the Pope. That alone speaks volumes. If there was deceit, Kiko would have been excommunicated.
This written permission is like a fetish of obsession for Tim Rohr, He said several times that as soon as he sees the written permission, he and his attitude will go away. But hey, Tim, why to wait? Why don't you just go away right now?!
DeleteThey just need this giant rubber bone to chew on it. They chew and chew and chew, then they run around and start again, and chew and chew and chew again... Good for them chewing lovers!
Sorry, but we are just getting bored tremendously.
Dear Diana, so you admit that you have never seen a written permission? Perhaps Pius was reading from his own notes, rather than any written iunstruction. Perhaps he was reading from an email. In any case, there is no written permission is there? Does it not bother you that Fr Pius made an error? Perhaps there are more errors? How can you be sure, if you have never seen the actual "permission" you believe exists?
DeleteMore likely, there was never any permission given, which is consistent with Pope Benedict's attitude to the liturgy. More likely, Kiko simply ignored the Pope in respect to his instructions, believing that Rome would not stop him due to his influence. Each time you celebrate the Eucharist then you defy the Pope's instructions, preferring the instruction of a layman.
"If the NCW really wanted to brainwash us, they would simply say that it came directly from the Pope."
There is nothing logical about this assertion. The argument is that it came from the pope anyway, isn;t it? And the fact that you were told that it came from Kiko who got it from the pope is just adding more "authority" to the instruction.
There is no confusion as to what the Pope actually told you to do. It is written in the letter from Cardinal Arinze, confirmed by the pope in his addresses to the NCW and even placed in the definite Statutes themselves.
All your arguments are, at best, self-deception.
Dear Anonymous at 5:53 pm,
DeleteThis is why the Archbishop refuses to show the written document. In 2008, during the Beginning of the Year Convivience, there was a change in how the NCW was supposed to receive the Body of Christ. Father Pius was telling us of that change. Anyone can make an error when instructing something that is new. I did hear Father Pius say that these instructions came from Kiko which he got from the Pope. And here you are already judging whether the instructions came from someone else's notes, email, etc. What I saw and heard at that convivience was not a deception. It was exactly as I saw and heard.
It is a fact that the NCW celebrates the Eucharist exactly the same way worldwide in regards to how the Body of Christ is received, etc. This can only come from a written notice rather than a verbal hand transmission, which is more prone to error. If it was actually a verbal instruction, the NCW would be celebrating the Mass differently in every community worldwide.
Dear Joane, I can assure you that the Way follows its Statutes that was issued in 2008. We are not a sect. By definition, a sect is a group that has separated from an established church or a nonconformist church.
Deletehttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect
We are not separated from the Catholic Church, on the contrary, we provide substantial support in evangelization. We help to conform people's beliefs to the catechism. By this reason we cannot be called nonconformist either. Our presbyters are consecrated into the Catholic Church, therefore they are part of the holy priesthood. Don't believe malicious, uneducated people who don't understand and have no idea what the word presbyter means. They feed your mind with nonsense.
We love and honor the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God. We accept her as Co-Redemptix, Mediatrix and Advocatrix. So please, clarify what do you want to know. We are your Catholic sisters and brothers in the faith of Jesus Christ. Please, read this aloud and repeat a few times. You'll see your confusion will instantly go away! Then you'll rejoice because you'll see the truth.
I agree with you that no Catholic should hate a woman just because the woman became a victim of abortion. Pope Francis is a very compassionate person, as we all should be. People who post bloody pictures of aborted fetuses and drawings of women during the abortion procedure are not compassionate persons, but mental terrorists who want to humiliate women and incite witch hunt against them. These people are stuck in the Middle Ages. Now, the Pope says we should grow up to the challenges of a new millennia.
Peace be with you, Joane.
What about the allegations of sexual molestation against AAA? John Toves is not the only one making these allegations, Diana.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAllegations remain only allegations until there is a victim.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousSeptember 11, 2015 at 11:41 AM
What about the allegations of sexual molestation against AAA? John Toves is not the only one making these allegations, Diana.
Reply
AnonymousSeptember 11, 2015 at 1:21 PM
Allegations remain only allegations until there is a victim.
ReplyDeleteThere is no victim.
They only wish there was a victim
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-schoenborn-at-synod-church-should-embrace-positive-elements-of-gay
ReplyDeleteIsn't Schoenborn one of Kiko's best friends?