An anonymous commenter in my last post alerted me to the fact that Tim Rohr had published the Internal Report of the Cathedral-Basilica and the Catholic Cemeteries. How did he manage to obtain a copy of the Internal Report should not be a mystery since he already admitted that he has spies in the Chancery. I wonder if Monsignor James was aware that Tim Rohr has just made public this Internal Report showing evidence of his financial mismanagement.....because I do not see it in the Pacific Daily News or KUAM. Did the Archdiocese of Agana plan on publishing this information without first speaking to Monsignor James? The alternative would be for Monsignor James to come forward and admit his wrongdoing so the Archdiocese would not need to publish their findings. That opportunity is now gone since Tim took it upon himself to make the findings public in his blog.
Since the media monitors Tim's blog, I am sure he will be flooded with inquiries from the media. Thanks to Tim, we now know that the Archbishop was telling the truth all along. I think that the following piece below mentioned in the report is very interesting. This most likely explains why Monsignor James' family was very upset by his removal. I suppose they did not want the public to know that they received FREE cemetery plots valued at $380,000. According to the Internal Report:
Between January 2009 and July 2014, Msgr. Benavente received payments of $326,913.61 by simultaneously drawing payroll and stipends from the Catholic Cemeteries, and stipend payments from the Cathedral-Basilica. Upon the change of administration, credit cards in the name of the Archdiocese were discovered holding balances in excess of $60,000; the credit card in the name of The Catholic Cemeteries was specifically used by Msgr. Benavente for restaurants, air fare, the Shangi-La Hotel in Manila and other five star Hotels. In the same period, The Catholic Cemeteries and the Cathedral-Basilica expended more than $123,000 towards credit card payments to First Hawaiian Bank and American Express. Other payments for a credit card in the name of Msgr. Benavente, a gas card, and cellular/data phone privileges, which were paid for by The Catholic Cemeteries, accounted for an additional $23,000. Notably, $13,000 of cemetery funds were paid for Msgr. Benavente's 20th Anniversary reception. Total advances documented between January 2009 and July 2014 by both entities for Msgr. Benavente are nearly $475,000. This does not include cemetery family crypts valued at 380,000.00, which were gifted by Msgr. Benavente to his close friend and family: in other words, no fee was charged for these cemetery plots.
http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/01/dear-archbishop-savio-hon-tai-fai.html
Now that Tim Rohr has made public the findings of the Internal Report, which was dated January 23, 2015, is he going to call the Archbishop a "liar?" Will he be calling him a bully? How was he a bully when it was Tim Rohr who made the findings of the Internal Report "public" after the information was leaked to him? Archbishop Apuron said that he removed Monsignor James for financial mismanagement. That is the truth.
Hafa Adai Diana - I discovered a post written by a Father Landry back in 2002. While he was writing about the sex scandal in the church, I have attached a section of it because it relates to this "scandal" occurring today here in Guam. Because of its length, I have to send it in two parts.
ReplyDeletePart 1:
"The Church will never fail
For almost three years of my life in the early 1990s, while in my car I listened to nothing but tapes by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, one of the greatest Catholic preachers in American history. On a couple of his tapes for priests' retreats, Bishop Sheen said that he preferred to live in times when the Church has suffered rather than thrived, when the Church had to struggle, when the Church had to go against the culture. It was a time for real men and real women to stand up and be counted. "Even dead bodies can float downstream," he said, pointing that many people can coast when the Church is respected, "but it takes a real man, a real woman, to swim against the current."
How true that is. It takes a real man or a real woman to stand up against the current that is flowing against the Church. It takes a real man or a real woman to recognize that when you are resisting the flood of criticism, you are safest when you stay attached to the Rock on whom Christ built his Church. This is one of those times. It's a great time to be a Christian.
Some people are predicting that the Church is in for a rough time, and maybe it is. But the Church will survive because the Lord will make sure it survives. One of the greatest comeback lines in history was uttered two hundred years ago. As his armies were swallowing up the countries of Europe, French emperor Napoleon is reported to have said to Church officials, "Je détruirai votre église" ("I will destroy your Church")." Wen informed of the emperor's words, Ercole Cardinal Consalvi, one of the great statesmen of the papal court, replied, "He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!" If bad popes, immoral priests, and countless sinners in the Church hadn't succeeded in destroying the Church from within, Cardinal Consalvi was saying, how did Napoleon think he was going to do it from without?
The Cardinal was pointing to a crucial truth: Christ will never allow his Church to fail. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18); that the barque of Peter, the Church sailing through time to its eternal port in heaven, will never capsize-not because those in the boat won't do everything sinfully possible to overturn it but because Christ, who is captain of the boat, will never allow it to happen.
If the EXCOMMUNICATION were to happen today the list of people that need to be on the list who continue to malign and discredit the Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteTim Rohr,Chuck White, John Toves, Agnes White, C Benavente, Gerald Taitano, Janet B (Stay anonymous if I were you), Mary Lou Garcia, Jesus Cepeda, Msgnr Benavente, Father Mike Crisostomo Jonathan Diaz of Barrigada,Blockley, Tommy Tanaka, Gil Shinohara, Owen Bollinger, Dave Sablan,Mary Lou Pereda,Patty Arroyo, Sen Tina Muna Barnes, Art Illagan, Rev Crisostomo, Rev Efren, Rev Gofigan, Becky Terlaje, Ray Dalisay, Vangie Lujan and John Toves and DEACON MARTINEZ was given a chance and beg to be reinstated. You may have your earthly VICTORY but the day of JUDGEMENT, you'll be facing the MERCY CHAIR.
I pray for POPE Francis to expedite the process.
Manuel Ayuyu of Latte Heights
Part 2.
ReplyDeleteThe magnitude of the current scandal might be such that some will find it difficult to trust priests in the same way as in the past. That is regrettable, though it might not be a completely bad thing. Yet you must never lose trust in Christ! It is his Church. After Judas's death the eleven apostles convened; the Holy Spirit chose Matthias to take Judas's place, and he proclaimed the gospel faithfully until he was martyred for it. In the same way today, even if some of those the Lord chose have betrayed him, he will call others who will be faithful, who will serve you with the love with which you deserve to be served.
This is a time in which all of us need to focus ever more on holiness. We are called to be saints, and how much our society needs to see this beautiful, radiant face of the Church! You are part of the solution-a crucial part. And as you go forward in Mass to receive from the priest's anointed hands the sacred body of your Lord, ask Christ to fill you with a real desire for sanctity, a real desire to show his true face.
...
Maybe this scandal can kindle in you the same thing. If you choose, this scandal can lead you down to the path of spiritual suicide. But it should inspire you to say finally to God, "I want to become a saint so that I and the Church can give your name the glory it deserves, so that others might find in you the love and the salvation that I have found."
Jesus is with us, as he promised, until the end of time. He is still in the boat. Just as out of Judas's betrayal he achieved the greatest victory in the universe-our salvation through his passion, death and resurrection-so out of this new scandal he may bring, wants to bring, a new rebirth of holiness, a new Acts of the Apostles for the twenty-first century, with each of us-and that includes you-playing a starring role. Now is the time for real men and women of the Church to stand up. Now is the time for saints. How will you respond?"
It is unfortunate that Mr. Rohr is insisting that all the faithful do not contribute to the charities appeal. It is unfortunate that he feels money will hurt the church. Jesus Christ was clear ... You cannot serve God and money. I hope that in the midst of all this, every catholic faithful will ask, "what would Christ do?" and then respond accordingly.
Diana if I may I respect sister Maryann since I was little. I would like for Patty Arroyo to read this.
ReplyDeleteMs.Patty you let this mud thrown to your loving Aunt?! How could you?!!!
Still supporting Monsignor JamesJanuary 24, 2015 at 7:56 AM
Sister Marian Arroyo! I'd heard she was going to go and trash Msgr. James -- she's had a bee under her bonnet for him since the Apostolic Delegation was here. Well good. I'm glad this is all public because now we can see just how vindictive and brave they are now that the delegation is gone. AAA, Adrian "It's Just A Matter of Time Before I Lose My Title as Chancellor" Cristobal, David the Sickly, and Sister Marian will have to live with their consciences forever. Their roles in all this will be a torment, and they'll likely be begging for forgiveness when they awaken from their nightmares in the dead of the night. But you know what? The hardest person to seek forgiveness from is yourself... and I pray that you're aware of the damage you're doing to your souls. Sa' ti mamaigu si Yu'os. May God have mercy on you all.
AnonymousJanuary 24, 2015 at 8:44 AM
Sr. Marian SCUM...always will be scum!. Patti pls. take your aunt and ship her back to NC!...
Part 3 from anonymous
ReplyDeleteTake pains to refrain from sharp words. Pardon one another so that later on you will not remember the injury. The recollection of an injury is itself wrong. It adds to our anger, nurtures our sins and hates what is good. It is a rusty arrow and poison for the soul. It puts all virtue to flight.
--Saint Francis of Paola
”When we have to reply to anyone who has insulted us, we should be careful to do it always with meekness. A soft answer extinguishes the fire of wrath. If we feel ourselves angry, it is better for us to be silent, because we should speak amiss; when we become tranquil, we shall see that all our words were culpable.”
--Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church
He who knows how to forgive prepares for himself many graces from God. As often as I look upon the cross, so often will I forgive with all my heart. (390)
--St. Faustina
For there are three ways of performing an act of mercy: the merciful word, by forgiving and by comforting; secondly, if you can offer no word, then pray - that too is mercy; and thirdly, deeds of mercy. And when the Last Day comes, we shall be judged from this, and on this basis we shall receive the eternal verdict. (1158)
--St Faustina
, my children, a person who is in a state of sin is always sad. Whatever he does, he is weary and disgusted with every thing; while he who is at peace with God is always happy, always joyous. . . Oh, beautiful life! Oh, beautiful death!'
--St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney
Our souls may lose their peace and even disturb other people's, if we are always criticizing trivial actions - which often are not real defects at all, but we construe them wrongly through our ignorance of their motives.
--Saint Teresa
Holy Moses! WOW! That explain everything more than a quarter million!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteTo Mr. Rohr's appeal to not give the the catholic charities appeal.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it important for me to support the Annual Catholic Appeal?
By participating in the Annual Catholic Appeal, you help those whose needs are the greatest – the poor, the vulnerable, those on the margins of our society. Your gift demonstrates your commitment to Catholic education and the fight of the unborn; it supports those who are ill, imprisoned and dying; and helps to strengthen struggling families as well as offers counseling to the grieving and the addicted. The success of the Appeal enables thousands of individuals and families throughout the diocese make positive changes to improve their lives.
How does my parish benefit from the Annual Catholic Appeal?
Once a year our bishop asks each of us to support the work of the diocesan programs and ministries which provide services that no one parish can offer on its own. Additionally at least 50 percent of contributions received beyond a parish’s assigned target is returned to the parish. Parishes that operate or help to support a school receive 100 percent of contributions collected above the assigned target.
How much should I give?
Charitable giving is a reflection of our Christian stewardship of treasure. Giving back to God, either through contributions to your parish, the Annual Catholic Appeal, or other worthwhile charities, should require a sacrifice, one that recognizes God’s generosity to us individually. Therefore, your gift is a personal decision between you and God, and should be made after careful reflection.
I encourage all catholic faithful to not listen to Mr. Rohr, but be generous. What you give to God in secret, God will reward you 100 fold.
a clever ploy by rohr..
Deletehe has nothing left to gain from supporting benavente; in fact....let me be the first to expose this report so I can be recognized.
reminds me of rats swimming away from a sinking ship.
It was brought to my attention by an anonymous commenter that the report was in the Umatuna; therefore, I stand corrected. The archdiocese made this report public to the Catholic faithful through the Umatuna. I apologize for the error. :)
ReplyDeleteNow ask yourself the same questions. Did the AA speak to Monsignor James prior to making this audit public? Did he give him a chance to defend himself? Most likely not and he continues to smear peoples names without giving them due process.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:15 pm,
DeleteThe Archbishop was also accused of many things by Tim Rohr. Did Tim give him due process? From what I am hearing, Tim is demanding the Archbishop to sign an affadavit.
Also, how is Monsignor James going to defend giving away free cemetery plots to family and friends? The poor..... I can understand........but family and friends reeks of graft and corruption.
Anon 1:15PM he does not need to, the person use to live in the Chancery was ask by his boss to leave without touching anything, he back pedaled and left the trail.
DeleteSecondly he encroach his boss, this all came about why he can't make payment on his 7MIL loan. Wow.
But how does a priest defend himself from the evidence of corruption? 'Oh, yes, I did use church money for selfish reasons; oh yes, the money was supposed to go to cemetery, but i used it to buy expensive frills in Manila. O yeah, I knew what i did and i did it anyway'.
DeleteNow, how does one defend this?
I remind u that the archbishop removed Benavente without saying why. He even gave him a second chance in another parsish. The scandal raised by his removal compels the archbishop to explain the removal. He has been criticized maligned threatened and his property physically attacked and destroyed and still he was quiet and did not defend himself. He chose to make this information public AFTER the apostolic visit. Could he be following instructions? Obviously he was justified in removing Benavente. Some said it was u just. Well now you now it isn't. Admit u were wrong and let's move on.
DeleteWhat exactly was he doing in 5 star hotels in Manila?
DeleteAnd why give away at free of charge almost $300,000 worth of free cemetery plots?
DeleteWOW! Now, we the people have to end up paying for their 'free plots'?
5 star hotels......I remember one time our priest staying at the 5 star seminary visiting another priest....eating what the brothers were eating.....rice and veggies and a little fish........he was thankful for what God provided. Maybe benavente was more blessed.
DeleteRohr just post this =======>http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/01/your-excellency.html#comment-form
ReplyDeleteThe Pope knows about your evil vile. Your toast Rohr.
One of the lies he claim
Wadeson was being hidden in the Seminary 07/23/2014
more to add on this claim. I'll let everyone fill the blanks. Many more Rohr.
A narcissistic man like Rohr would give himself credit for exposing the Report. The FACT is that the report was an insert in this week's Umatuna.
ReplyDeleteLike 'rats swimming away from a sinking ship', this is a true image of a man whose untiring efforts to destroy the church have now paid-off.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteI do hope that the Chancery, before having published these findings, had given Monsignor James an opportunity to respond to them. Like in any audit, if any exceptions are discovered, management is given a copy and a chance to respond to the exceptions. The findings and the responses are then brought to the Board -, in this case the Finance Counsel and the Council of Advisors. They then should advise the Archbishop accordingly, especially if the report is to be accepted and released accordingly.
For the sake of peace and charity, I do hope this was the process that had taken place.
Peace.
What I do not understand is that Monsignor James knew all this and yet allowed some people (especially Tim Rohr) to fight for him. He knew that he gave free cemetery plots to his friend and family; yet, kept silent about it while the Archbishop was being pounded for telling the truth about the financial mismanagement. Did he actually think that it his activities would not be discovered?
ReplyDeleteDiana - The Archbishop took a hit not Archbishop. Look at this scenario, now the family has the audacity to be angry. Don't blame the Archbishop, blame Tim Rohr and CCOG. You brought this upon yourself.
ReplyDeleteTim Rohr was the reason Msgnr James was reassign somewhere else. A rogue Deacon/.Priest leaked Rev Wadeson's e-mail. He admit on FACEBOOK. Now the Bull dung hitting them in the face. Jungle Watch folks what this man have done? He damaged and created this division for one disobedient priest.
I mean not Tim Rohr. Sorry,
DeleteTo ANON 12:42 pm. Did you say "Released accordingly?' Please explain how to 'release accordingly' the facts of corruption? It's like saying that the murderer is only a 'partial' murderer; he really didn't murder, even if the body of evidence is there for all to see. It's like saying the sewer is partially opened and what you smell is just your imagination. The FACTS are the facts. No matter how thin we try to slice the report, it's undeniable that there was corruption.
ReplyDelete1:24PM Corruption? According to whom? THE JUNGLE? It's all hearsay, we don't believe story but facts. Intoxicated with ROHR juice eh?
Delete1:35 pm - r-e-a-d the REPORT!
DeleteAnd who signed off on the loans is the big question now? Was it the Archbishop? Was it Msgr. James? It takes two to tanglo!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 3:28 pm,
DeleteWhat loans??????? This deals with credit card purchases and freely giving away cemetery plots to friend and family.
loans??????? is there another report?
DeleteMisdirection effort huh......to lessen the sting maybe.......5 star hotels......maybe I should go there myself and see whether the staff remember any other additional services.
Maybe not.....not enough rohr juice.
3:28 PM the BIG questions is not the loans, but the abuse of God's money, the free crypts, the manila hob-nobs and good times, the $326,000 payroll, the $60,000 credit card, $123,00 more credit, the $13,000 party, the advances of $475,000. The priest made almost a million dollars from the church in just a few years! Can he answer for that?
ReplyDelete$13,000.00 party......I live in the wrong village......wrong parish. Honey.....get the kids....we are moving.
ReplyDeleteAnd how much for some lavish weddings in Guam. Some Rosaries cost that much. Be fair people.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:20 pm.
DeletePeople pay for their own weddings and their own rosaries. They do not charge it to the Church.
Ever consider that the freebies given by Msngr James were actually to those who gave large donations. Simple minded people.
DeletePoor suffering Jesus, having to listen to the "rudeness and crudeness" of those (and yes some of those on the junglewatch blog) trying to "correct" one another. There seems to be Truth on both sides; but, until each side can admit their wrongs, and refrain from vicious attacks, how can we be One Body with Christ as the Head. Why are we "Christians" continuing to mutilate Christ's Body. We are attacking ourselves. Can dialogue be civil?
ReplyDeleteI like what you say tremendously. Vicious attacks are coming from the extremes of both sides. I was criticized at the Jungle because I do not agree with their attacks of the Archbishop. Church hierarchy is a sacred thing for me, I would never ever interfere with those who much better than I do. But I was also attacked here and called names because I question some particular neo practices. I think of the mainstream Catholics as distancing themselves from extremes of both sides. We are only those who are able to get a civil dialogue, because extremes are not trained in civility. They are trained to throw rock only.
DeleteI asked people not to trash their God given intellect, because we should cherish everything we receive from God. Then they said I called them silly. It was not true. When I complained about strange music, they said I called their music strange noise. I never said that word. When I told I sent a comment to Jungle Watch in the "plumber" topic, they said I am FROM Jungle Watch. It was not true again. They attack me in a very uncivil manner and they call me uncivil at the same time censuring out what I write in my defense. How can you make a conversation under these circumstances?
Dear Anonymous, I like that you say there is truth on both sides. That is what we have been saying all along. We do not agree with the campaign against the Archbishop. But we do not agree with the neos in some particular issues either. Jolene talked about this. But we are ostracized by the extremes of both sides. We have to struggle for being heard. Why? Because there is no blog seeking the middle ground in this sad situation.
DeleteBoth sides should make concessions in order to make peace. On the one hand, neos should cut back their arrogance in pushing their agenda in Catholic churches. I think they are good in missionary work and evangelizing the uninitiated. So they should focus on members of other denominations, other religions or pagans, not on Catholics. On the other hand, the anti-bishop radicalism should stop. This is a business of Vatican and not of Guam. So both sides should make gestures of good will toward each other. This could help a lot. But is there any willingness?
But why did benavente steal church money? What led him to be corrupt? Did he realize that the money he took belonged to the church? Is he not supposed to be enlightened because he is a priest who learned about God in the theology-school? Let's stick to the heart of the matter of corruption. What did pope francis say about corrupt priests? these questions are not attacks. Just tell the people the truth!
DeleteDear Jack and Jolene,
DeleteIt is the Archbishop who invited the Way into the parish. So, if you honestly respect the Church hierarchy as you claim, then you would not be opposing the Archbishop. We have permission from the Archbishop and the parish priest to be in the Catholic Church and invite our brothers and sisters to join the Way to deepen their faith. The Archbishop is also walking in the Way. He supports it. Therefore, if you REALLY feel that Church hierarchy is sacred, then why are you both opposed to the Archbishop?? We did not invade the Church. We are Catholics, and we are there at the invitation of the parish priest and have the permission of the Archbishop to be there.
I am sorry Diana I did not oppose the Archbishop. I asked about why not to turn to our fallen Protestant sisters and brothers who need guidance to find their way back to the true faith in Christ. Protestants hold a whole lot of ridiculous views about Christ which is not even supported by their own Bible. They lost their true ways of being a Christian because they followed the wrong direction of their Protestantism.
DeleteWhat I would like to see for example is like teams of four Catholic faithful going out hand in hand to evangelize the fallen away Protestant flock. A, evangelizing team could consist of two priests, one neo and one not neo, two lay persons, one neo and one not neo, when they coordinate their impact. I guess it would be great because of the experience neos already have and the non neos making appeal together of the true Catholic doctrines. I am sure the Pope would be glad to hear that.
Now that would be serious Catholic business, to go into Sunday services of the denominations with our teams and tell them the true Word of God. I understand that we are like light years apart from this collaboration. But if there is genuine willingness, then we could work this out. Hand in hand, neos and non neos. How about that, Diana?
Dear jack and Jolene,
DeleteI hate that you feel attacked, but that is a little of the nature of debate. It is also true that this medium is very hard because what we think we are saying reads very differently without facial expressions and vocal tones to help interpret.
Having said this, and deploring anything that gives scandal, you do not read as someone interested in dialogue or in expressing a nuetral opinion! You did use the word silly and you called the announcement propaganda and you said that we followed the KIKO dictionary that is secret and proclaimed in darkness. Or something to that effect. . I felt insulted. If you say that was not your intention I believe you.
There are 3 categories of discussion. Facts, opinions, and truth/lies about the things of God. Facts we can interpret, opinions we can debate but if someone slanders the truth then I think it must be defended and the lies exposed.
Benavente stealing money is a fact. U can judge him forgive hate him pity him but hat is a fact.
That the catechesis makes u silly is an opinion. I believe it makes you smarter.
That the announcement is propaganda is a lie. That the catechisis is other than the church is a lie. That yona belongs to anybody but the local ordinary is a lie. And they are lies about works of God. I can not sit quietly and listen if there is a chance to correct. But dear Jolene if u choose to spread these lies I have to show u where u r wrong. U can continue to spread them but at least you do it conscientiously knowing that u r spreading lies.
Let us dialogue, forgive me if I have offended u, but let neither of us play the victim of attack card.
Dear Jolene,
DeleteWe are not like the fundamentalist Protestants. We invite our Catholic brothers and sisters who want to deepen their faith or who are not happy with their life to join us so we can help them. If you are happy, you can stay where you are. But why are you denying the brothers who want to be helped?
Diana, what Jolene says is not your legalistic approach. We have never questioned if you have the permission of what you are doing. This is the same legalistic approach Tim Rohr has on Jungle Watch. All he is interested in is if there is permission from Rome or not... Actually the legalistic approach is kinda extreme, because it looks into permissions only. But we are not interested in permissions we are interested in WHY you do things in one way or the other.
DeleteFor example, when you raise your kids, you make choices of what to provide with them and what not. The law itself would permit a wide selection of things to do, but you still want to make preferences because of your values, what you want your kids be. Do you want to raise your kid to be Catholic? You would also be permitted by law to raise them Protestant or even atheist. It is not a question of legal permission, because you still want them to be Catholic, right? Now, this is exactly what we mean by the value oriented way as opposed to the legalistic way! I hope I could make my point clear.
So please, consider our questions in value oriented way rather than legalistically. What are your values, what are the important things that prompt your collaboration or conflicts with other Catholics? If we are to carve out a middle ground in the controversy, then both sides have to make concessions, otherwise the dialogue becomes hopelessly one-sided. Do you agree, Diana?
Dear Jolene I live off island and in my parish we do go together neo and non neo to talk to people in the parish territory. While we do talk to people of other faiths, our objective is to invite Catholics who have fallen away. I think that is a big part of evangelization. It is possible and it is done. I agree it is exactly what we must do.
DeleteDear Jack,
DeleteAs I already said......the NCW is there for our Catholic brothers who want to deepen their faith or who needs some help. There are Catholics in the Chuch co-habitating with their partners. Some are destroyed through a broken home, broken marriage, or addiction who needs help. The testimonies of the brothers who overcame some of those problems are a hope to these Catholics. On the other hand, if you are happy and have no problems, then the Way is not for you.
I see comments and sentiments about the brothers in the way going to other denominations and those that because they are outside of the church somehow or another are considered "un-churched", what our fellow Catholics don't seem to recognize or understand is that if God called me, ( a person already initiated into the Catholic Church by my baptism, 1st communion, confirmation, and sacramental marriage) to come to really know him and the faith he offers, that there have to be others like me in the church as well. Should we go "out"? Yes, but shouldn't we start 1st from within?
DeleteIn the catechisis, for which testimonies are given to come and listen, someone might realize that they do have idols in all things that come before loving God, or that the bible is actually not historical of what happened 2000+ years ago, but our history in our lives up to today, as well as what to expect or hope in for tomorrow. I was of the mindset, before hearing the catchesis, that I existed to do everything for my kids, above all else. I see now how that is an idolatry and this IS NOT why God created me. I see myself in the story of Abraham, in the story of his having a son from a servant girl; knowing of a promise to have descendants as numerous as the stars, and then deciding God revealed his promise so he came to conclusion, in his impatience, that it was up to him to make it happen. Again, my point is that He called me to begin to know this from within the parish walls, and while many may have this already, there may be many who don't and this is how He plans to call them.
Jolene,
DeleteI don't think you have altruistic motives. You posted here and then on Jungle Watch saying Diana "went nuts". Now you state above saying: "I was criticized at the Jungle because I do not agree with their attacks of the Archbishop."
I saw your comment on JW and I didn't see one criticism about you personally.
If you truly want to be a bridge between sides then you have to be honest with yourself and motives. You can't go bashing each side and expect to be taken seriously.
I can send you a(n incomplete) collection of comments that was censured out/ remained unpublished on both blogs. Then you judge yourself. Jungle Watch rejected (even left unpublished) my proposal of peaceful coexistence, although Tim responded in general telling why he cannot live in peace with the neos and with the Archbishop. Haven't you read it? I feel sorry and pray for him. Jungle Watch is also adamantly going against existing church hierarchy.
DeleteI did not bash either side. You could check my exchange with Diana about Biblical interpretation. I was not allowed to speak freely, but why to go back there? That discussion has already been closed.
But you are right my motives are not altruistic at all. Altruism is some generic good will, but I am not generic. There is a definite purpose here! I had visited neo services in the past and I have a whole lot of reservations. You could have read the account. It has been confirmed that there is no need for neos to take over the Catholic Church on Guam. This intention generates fear in me, fear for my own faith and fear for the faith of other Catholics. Thus far, neos have failed to prove that these fears were baseless. This is why a peaceful coexistence should be promoted.
I might be wrong but I would like to challenge this concept of idol from the Old Testament. You can serve God through "idols" like your family or job. Because these things were given to you by God. You would not have it, if God did not give it to you! So just worship God through these "idols", serving your family and doing your job well.
DeleteDear Jolene,
DeleteThe first commandment of God says to love God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength. One is not supposed to have any other gods before Him. God give gifts such as a family and job to people, but one should never worship the gift that God gives. Christ said that anyone who loves mother, father, or children more than Him is not worthy to be His disciple.
A person should always love their family and even do their job well. But one should never put their family or job first before God. God must always be first.
Dear Jolene at 10:38 am,
DeleteDid you not recently say that you only posted ONCE in Junglewatch? Did you not say that you only posted in Junglewatch once after I treated you badly?? So, how is it that you have a collection of comments censored from JW? If Tim rejected your peaceful proposal, then you had more than one comment published in the jungle.
Yes, Diana, because after that happened I started to save my comments so not be lost. Go and check how many appeared. You cannot check that did not appear unless you ask Tim Rohr to give you the copies. I guess that is how it works. Tim has a good heart but I can''t agree with him in everything. My point about "idols" is that whatever you get from God cannot be an idol! Micah 5:15 says I will cut off thy graven images and thy pillars out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thy hands. Idol is a work of thy hands. Whatever you receive from God cannot be an idol. God made you in his own image.
DeleteDear Jolene,
DeleteAn idol is whatever one puts FIRST before God. God gave us gifts, but it is not His intention to turn those gifts into idols, which is what can happened. We appreciate the gifts God gave us, but we are not supposed to worship those gifts. Worship alone belongs to God.
In the Old Testament, God told Moses to build a brass serpent and whoever looks upon it will live (Numbers 21:9). This brass serpent came from God and its power to cure also came from God. However, when the people of Israel started worshiping the brass serpent, God destroyed it (2 Kings 18:4).
Diana, the example of the serpent does not apply to people and human relations. Isaiah 2:8 is a good definition of idol: "Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made." For me, my family and my job does not belong here. How can you say a baby is the work of your own hands, that which your own fingers have made. This does not make sense.
DeleteIsaiah 37:19 also says "They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands." How can you say about living things that they are wood and stone, fashioned by human hands? This would deny the awesome power of God, Creator of the living and the non-living, the visible and the invisible.
I feel sorry for you, Diana, if you are unable to see the wonderful caring authority of God in your own job at your workplace. God gave us a profession to make a living for our family so our kids get the best education to be successful. This is the FIRST thing, but it is not before God, but it is exactly what God wants us to do.
Dear Jolene,
DeleteThis is what Christ said. Please read it very slowly and carefully:
Matthew 10:37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mark 10:29-30 Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
As you can see from the Holy Bible, if you put your family first before Christ, you are not worthy of Him.
I really feel sorry for you Jolene. God gave you job, a family so that your kids would get the best education to be successful. The problem with this philosophy is that God NEVER called you to be SUCCESSFUL. He called you to be FAITHFUL. God gave you a job and a family, and you actually think that the FIRST thing God wants you to do is to be successful??????
Diana, you want to suggest that following the neo is like following Jesus? The neo is a Catholic catechism method. How could it be the same as being his disciple? God wants my kids to be successful and not failure. That is why God provides everything you need to raise your children. If you make your kids fail, then you also fail with them. You fail in listening to God.
DeleteDear Jolene,
DeleteWere we not discussing what an IDOL is?? God never called anyone to be successful. He called people to be FAITHFUL. Did you not state that an idol is what you make with your hands??? Well, this is how the Fundamentalist Protestant define an idol. They call Catholics "idol worshippers" because they see us bowing to the statues and icons, which were made by human hands. So again, an IDOL is anything that one puts FIRST before God. In other words, you are supposed to love God more than your children. If you love your children more than God, then you made your children into idols. You failed to listen to what Christ said:
Matthew 10:37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Diana, you guys consider anything that gets I the way of loyalty to the NCW (not God) to be idols.
DeleteGod doesn't ask us to lose our jobs so that we can go to an NCW RETREAT, but Pius Tells them their jobs are idols if they don't attend.
Your job becomes an idol when a person CHOOSES to put it above GOD. You guys use idols to create guilt in your members, so that you can control their lives.
Dear Anonymous at 11:25 am,
Delete"Your job becomes an idol when a person chooses to put it above God." This statement that you made is correct. Anything that is placed first and above God is an idol. God said not to have any other gods before Him. Are you going to tell me that putting your job above God is okay?
No, Why would I tell you that it is okay. I just explained when a job becomes an idol. When the hell did I say it's okay? Did you not understand my comment. Read again slowly.
DeleteI am saying that you guys distort the meaning of the phrase to control your members.
What do you consider putting as putting a job above God? Give some examples.
DeleteDiana, do you listen to what I say at all? You cannot love God if you do not love people. I did not say you love your kids 'above' God. You love your kids as a sign of your loving for God. You cannot separate these things, because it is not a competition. Your family is not the work of your hand, rather a gift of God. God wants you to love your neighbor. The more you love your kids and family and the more you provide with them, the better you love God.
DeleteDiana, I am sorry to interrupt, but Jolene thinks you are ignoring what she says. This concept of idol as you understand it in the neo is problematic. You don't apply it to the work of your own hand only "which your own fingers have made". You apply it for everything! Chuck White listed a lot of things in his blog that are problematic in the neo theology. The neo concept of idol is one of these. You have never engaged these problematic things in discussion at your blog, Diana. You keep yourself busy with fighting every day and don't pay attention to details. That is why Jolene feels you ignore the more subtle points she raises.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:12 pm,
DeleteHow was the phrase distorted? The Beginning of the Year Retreat is once a year, and a person who works in the government only loses one day of work. The Beginning of the Year retreat is usually announced much earlier so people can make arrangements with their work to take leave on that day.
Dear Jack Guerrero,
DeleteChuck White does not walk in the Way, has never even been to a catechesis or any of the celebrations. I am the one who walks in the Way and have been to the catechesis and to the celebrations.
In the Way, our concept of "idol" is anything that one puts FIRST before God. We have never defined "idol" as something that one makes with their hands or fingers, so I do not know where Chuck White got his definition. Most likely, it is a misconception that Chuck White has about the Way. Is Jolene even aware that Chuck White has never been to a single catechesis or Way celebration? Since Chuck White has never walked in the Way nor attend any catechesis or celebration of the Way, then I would question everything he says about the Way.
Dear Jolene,
DeleteThis is what you stated, which I quote:
JoleneJanuary 26, 2015 at 12:08 PM
Yes, Diana, because after that happened I started to save my comments so not be lost. Go and check how many appeared. You cannot check that did not appear unless you ask Tim Rohr to give you the copies. I guess that is how it works. Tim has a good heart but I can''t agree with him in everything. My point about "idols" is that whatever you get from God cannot be an idol! Micah 5:15 says I will cut off thy graven images and thy pillars out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thy hands. Idol is a work of thy hands. Whatever you receive from God cannot be an idol. God made you in his own image.
You stated that "idols are a work of thy hands" and whatever you received from God is not an idol. I disagree. An idol is ANYTHING that one puts FIRST before God. That anything could also be your children, despite that they are God's gift to you. I even cited Scripture where Jesus says that anyone who loves mother, father, or children MORE than Him is not worthy of Him.
Diana, do you mean that whoever is not "walking in the Way" has no right to ask questions about the neo? Is this really what you say? The Biblical concept of idol is coming, for example, from Isaiah 2:8 and 37:19 as Jolene pointed out a few lines above. Have you not read it?! Let me copy here.
DeleteIsaiah 2:8: "Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made." Isaiah 37:19: "They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands."
The definition of an idol is not the problem. The problem is that "someone else" makes the determination that something is an idol for you. For example, if you can't be present for a NCW gathering because your child is sick and you wish to stay with him/her, you are likely to be accused of loving your child more that God, and making you child an idol. Of course it is "someone else" who makes that call.
DeleteFor ordinary people this is obviously a nonsense, but for the brainwashed members of the NCW there is nothing unusual about that.
The real reason behind it is that the NCW have a "community at all costs" strategy, and there is danger in allowing people freedom, because that puts the viability of the small community at risk.
Pretty straightforward actually, but for the NCW, reason is to be distrusted. You should just do as you're told and shut up
Dear Anonymous at 4:57 pm,
DeleteThis is incorrect. I have been in every Beginning of the Year Retreat since I entered the Way, and I have never heard Father Pius put anyone down for not showing up because of a sick child. I have only seen him show disappointment when members told him that they went to work. Please do not spread false rumors around.
Dear Jack Guerrero,
DeleteI have no idea where and who taught you that "idols" are ONLY statues or things made by human hands. Idols can also be the love of money. Idols are things that man loves more than God. They can be statues that a person adores, but it can also be a living person.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07636a.htm
I provided the weblink of the Catholic Encyclopedia for you and Jolene so you can read the rest.
And of course, the Rohr followers will start coming up with to interpret this.
ReplyDeleteWAKE UP ROHRS!
Diana, can you imagine if it was AAA who did all these things in thenternal Report?
I think the answer to why is in Manila. And in his trips. Did he travel alone?
ReplyDelete11:14 pm. What's this supposed to mean?? Trying to slander some more? Unless you know things to be true, go say your prayers.
DeleteWhat's the fear Anon 11:22? Is there something to hide concerning the Manila jaunts?
DeleteThey asked for transparency. Now they got it. What is the problem? It was common knowledge that Mgr. Benevante was living an extravagant lifestyle. Many whispered it quietly. Many wondered how he got his money. His family cannot afford this lifestyle. His $900 a month remuneration that he supposedly get from Cathedral could not afford this kind of life. Many understood this. But we islanders are used to keep our mouth shut. Now the truth is out.
DeleteMgr. Benavente is a popular priest, no doubt. But “popularity” does not translate in holiness. A priest that in travelling had enough money to stay at hotels $300/night for a month. A priest who hired three of his godsons with management positions that oversee the Cathedral and the Cemetery with salaries analogous to private sector with the extra bonus to travel abroad and live at 5 star hotels, all expenses paid. A luxury that is very anti evangelical. Even Pope Francis encourages all his priests to seek a more modest lifestyle.
DeletePDN is against the Catholic Church in Guam. Every single time there is an article on the Church in the PDN, the only person quoted is Tim Rohr. Can someone explain to me why? He is not the only Catholic on island. Again, why, why, why?
DeleteIt is interesting. No one is disputing the facts about Mgr. Benavente mishandling of the Cathedral accounts. They are just harping why Archbishop did not consult with him before publishing these irregularities.
DeleteWell, the facts are : 1. Archbishop has been insisting for an audit review of the accounts for more than ten years now. 2. The Archdiocesan Financial Council was controlled by Mgr. Benavente and so things were kept hidden from Archbishop’s eyes.
Let us not forget. Tim Rohr worked for Mgr. Benavente. I saw his wife driving the van owned by the defunct Cathedral Coffee Shop many times. This connection between Benavente and Rohr explains the intensity of Rohr’s defense of Benavente. There is money involved. We are small here on island and so things are well known.
DeleteMsgnr James gets paid more than the Archbishop and Vicar General. Something to think about ROHR nation.
DeleteYou must be in the know because it is not on any report what AB and VG's stipends are.
DeletePDN Jan. 26 identified Tim Rohr as a FRIEND of Benavente. Ahhh. I see now! Its all very clear. ROHR - BENAVENTE - THE EX-CONS IN THE CCOG - THE DISBARRED ATTY. UNTALAN - THE CORRUPTION - THE MONEY - MONEY, MONEY, MONEY - ALL THESE GUYS STICK TO EACH OTHER.
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that there is a concerted and an ingenious strategy to discredit Archbishop Apuron. But who is orchestrating all this campaign against Archbishop Apuron? Who is the leader? Who is the mind of this devilish plan?
ReplyDeleteThe spokespersons are Tim Rohr, Chuuk White and Patty Arroyo. They have strong links within the PDN in the person of Gaynor Dumat el Deleno. And they are friends of Archbishop Krebs.
What is their common link? It is obvious. It is Father ERIC FORBES. They are Latin mass lovers. They frequent the friary up in Agana Heights. They belong to the Catholic Evidence Guild. Patty has a son who is a Capuchin student.
Father ERIC FORBES was seen dining with Archbishop Krebs on January 6th when the latter was here for the pastoral visit together with Archbishop Hon. A horrible gaffe of diplomacy on the part of Krebs.
Father ERIC FORBES is keeping himself out of the limelight of publicity and working behind the scenes orchestrating the downfall of Apuron, perhaps in the hope of taking his place.
Come out of darkness to live in the Light!
Just happened over here from JW ...I am a diehard follower. But to be fair, this about Forbes is true. If he is the next Bishop? Let's just say, won't be an improvement. Big slip up Krebs. Gonna check if this is true. When I find out, I'll get back to you. Bye.
DeleteHERE ARE SOME FACTS in case one gets drunk on the Rohr blog, or in case the CCOG smoke gets in your eyes:
ReplyDelete1. Benavente paid himself $326,913.61 from Catholic Cemeteries and Cathedral-Basilica from January 2009 and July 2014. WOW!
2. He had $60,000 worth of credit cards balances in the name of the Archdiocese.
3. Benavente used Catholic Cemeteries credit card for fine restaurants, air fare, the Shangri-La Hotel in Manila and other five star Hotels. (He was a frequent customer of the 'Shang', they even gave him discounts!)
4. Benavente racked up $123,000 in credit card payments paid for by Catholic Cemeteries and the Cathedral-Basilica.
5. Benavente had credit card bills totaling $23,000 for gas card and cellular/data phone privileges paid for by Catholic Cemeteries.
6. Cemeteries paid $13,000 for Benavente’s 20th Anniversary reception. (Yes, they reimbursed BUT only after he was removed. Cover it up!!! Now, isn't there a legal term for that …???)
7. Benavente advanced himself up to $475,000 between January 2009 and July 2014. All this PAID for by Cathedral and Cemeteries.
8. Benavente 'gifted' cemetery family crypts valued at $380,000.00 to his close friend (Rohr???) and family; in other words, no fee was charged for these cemetery plots. (WOW, which part of the mausoleum was this?).
I fail to see how Joe Rivera and his gang (former AFC group) could have defended Benavate in Aug '14 at the Cathedral steps telling the media that Benavente was an 'excellent administrator'. Maybe an administrator of other people's money going to his own pocket? He is after all, the 'people's priest'.
The love of money is the root of all evil.
Notice in the paper today, they did not deny free plots, same goes with Tim's blog.
DeleteGino ask Tim that question, Tim and his family got a freebie plots also. He did not defend himself.
DeleteHave you also noticed that they did not say anything about the $13,000 anniversary party?
DeleteDiana - I believe it was mentioned in KUAM last night the family paid for it..... So Benavente is saying Delloite and TOuche wrong. That is hard to believe.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:04 am,
DeleteDid they have a receipt to show for it? If they paid for it, the Catholic Cemeteries would have given them a receipt.
But why did Benavente take out 13, 000 for his party? Was it properly budgeted? Did he pay back the cemetery ? is there a promissory note to pay back? Or, was it a loan? Hey, do I smell fish?
DeleteDoes the word EMBEZZLEMENT mean anything to anybody?????
DeleteDiane, Timmy is advising Susanna Jayasuriya to prove that Benavente committed white collar crime.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 10:10 am,
DeleteWho is Susanna? Is she walking in the Way? Isn't the Archdiocese of Agana the one accusing Monsignor James of those financial mismanagement which is pretty much a white collar crime?
Sorry Diana is not Sue that I can attest. You folks in the Jungle keep shooting darts in the dark.
DeleteTim just can't help going to this part of the blog and pretend someone send it to him. Sue won't have time for this.
If this is not white collar crime then what is it????? Enron ended like this. This spells Money embezzlement...
Rohr what is it then racketeering? Gosh you have no credit to defend this. All your information you got from Richard Untalan which by the way in a verge of being EXCOMMUNICATED allong with you.
Dear Anonymous at 10:17 am,
DeleteHUH??? I'm lost. Who is Sue??? Is the jungle accusing me of being someone name Sue?
Yes Diana, they think your Sue LOL! A lay woman who has no knowledge of this but concentrating on her missionary work from the Pope. All she cares about announcing the love of Jesus Christ and she is already being malign and ridicule by the Jungle. This is a spin off from the informative Richard Untalan.
DeleteGosh if he only remember when he made an oath to the Archbishop and turn on his father like a pit-bull. I hope sleeps peacefully at night.
Oh my gosh, they ask for financial report and yet they weep the report is wrong. Is like marking a wild stallion and got kicked on the jaw! Nothing will satisfy these group but their own agenda.
DeleteTHEY ask for Financial (what is that word?), of yes, TRANSPARENCY! They got it. It's as clear as day. And now they cry foul? What's the problem? They got their transparency, and now it nips them on the bud? 'Whatsa a matta U?'
DeleteFOLKS, LET'S GO TO THE REPORT and see line by line how much Benavetne stole from the Church. This is like an exercise in reality-check for the jungle people.
ReplyDelete