According to our Statutes, the Neocatechumenal Way is for those who have fallen away from the Catholic Church, those who desire to deepen their faith, and those who come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the Catholic Church.
In the Way, mission families and itinerants are sent to foreign countries to evangelize non-Christians. A Catholic needs to be prepared to evangelize non-Christians. Preaching fire and brimstone to non-Christians will not convert them. Sometimes, the best way to evangelize is through one's behavior. As I mentioned before, Ghandi once said that he likes Christ but he does not like Christians. Ghandi did not reject Christ, but he also did not convert to Christianity because he saw that the behavior of Christians were far from Christlike. The NCW is an itinerary so that we can live out our baptism to be like Christ. If Ghandi had met Mother Teresa, he probably would have a different view of Christians.
The NCW currently has 102 Redemptoris Mater Seminary affiliated with the Lateran University in Rome. This seminary has produced many priests to do diocesan and missionary work. In the past, Guam has asked for priests from other countries such as the Philippines because we were unable to produce enough priests for Guam. With the establishment of two seminaries, we no longer need to ask other countries for priests. Rather, we are now in a position to help other countries who are lacking priests. The more priests are produced on Guam, the more we build up the Catholic Church.
Members of the Way are told to attend Sunday Mass with the parish once a month. However, there are some of us who attend Sunday Mass with the parish more than once a month due to the fact that we have become more involved in our parishes. There are NCW members who have joined the church choir, become lectors, Eucharistic ministers, and alter servers but we do not have a sign on us proclaiming that we are from the Way. We do not need to announce ourselves. Others build up the parishes by doing volunteer work in cleaning and maintaining Church grounds. Others participate in the parish council, work in parish offices, and even volunteer their time teaching CCD in the Church.
The youths in the NCW are also active in the celebrations. Many of them love music and chose to be cantors. Many of them participate in the monthly scrutacio reading the Bible and reflecting on the biblical readings. Families of the NCW are also transmitting the Catholic faith to their children during morning prayers. The youths are the future Church, and it is great to see the youths involve in the Church and speak about Christ our Savior.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteGreat post! Just a couple of corrections:
1. Not all 102 RM seminaries are affiliated with the Lateran University. In fact, the only one I know about which is affiliated, is the one in Guam, which makes it all the more special, a special gift of God to the Marianas and the whole Church. Possibly there could be some other RM seminaries affiliated with the Lateran that I don't know about, but the ones I do know (quite a few of them in the US and Europe) are not affiliated and are not accredited to give a pontifical degree as the RMS of Guam is.
2. You wrote: "Members of the Way are told to attend Sunday Mass with the parish once a month." First of all, all the Catholic faithful are bound to attend Holy Mass every Sunday. It is true that in 2005 Card. Arinze, expressing the wishes of the Holy Father, wrote that recipients of the neocatechumenal itinerary (he actually wrote "communities" but the recipients are the ones making up those communities) are to attend the parish Mass at least once a month. However, in 2008 the Holy See clearly stated in the definitely approved Statute of the NCW that "The celebrations of the Eucharist of the neocatechumenal communities on Saturday evening are part of the Sunday liturgical pastoral work of the parish [...]" (Art 13, § 2.). So, while it is true that, as you wrote, the NCW recipients are en large involved in many facets of parish life, even if they were to attend solely the Saturday night celebration of the Holy Mass with their respective communities, thereby they would also fulfill their obligation expressed by Card. Arinze. Like for any Sunday Mass, and any of the Catholic faithful, there is no control or obligation in the Church as to which Sunday parish Mass to attend whether one is involved in the NCW or not.
If you think about it, it would be quite ridiculous, that I can go to any Sunday Mass I want, as long as I am not deemed a "member" of the NCW, also, since in the NCW there is not membership certification or anything like it. How do you decide to whom this "rule" would apply? Anyone who attended the catechesis? How about if a person missed one? How could such membership be "undone"? Would you have to make a formal, possibly written declaration that you are no longer a member?
This is because the NCW by its nature is an ensemble of spiritual goods (i.e. it is not the people, but the itinerary and catecheses). So people are not members but recipients of those goods, if they wish to receive them, that is. For practical purposes, it wouldn't be convenient to correct everyone every time if they say "member" of the NCW, but in order to understand this issue of the Sunday Mass once a month, one needs to have a basic understanding of the nature of the NCW and that it's members are not people but elements of an itinerary of Catholic formation, and the ones we usually call "members", the people who make up the communities are the recipients of this formation.
Dear Nagyszakall,
ReplyDeleteThis is new information for me. I was not aware that The only the RMS seminary on Guam is affiliated with the Lateran University in Rome. That does appear to make us special. :)
What you say is true. Even if a person attended only the Eucharistic celebration of the Way, they are already meeting the Sunday Mass obligation. In Gusm, we have fiesta and things come up from time to time. During the village fiesta (which always takes place on Saturday) the Way would not celebrate the Eucharist and are told to attend any of the Sunday Mass in the parish. Things come up from time to time, and the priest would also tell the communities to attend the Mass in the parish. As for membership, I can see your point. However, we identify the members of the community as those who have completed the catechesis in the final steps, which are usually held in a hotel. The Catechists officially recognize them as members of the community. The Catechists team would hold a Eucharist and introduce the new-born community to the other communities in the parish.
Dear Diana,
DeleteI almost agree with you but not completely.
A person who attends the Eucharist celebrated in the NCW fulfills not only the Sunday Mass precept of Canon Law but also the specific request transmitted by Card. Arinze in his letter of 2005, because by attending that, he or she goes to one of the Masses of the parish community.
As for identifying those who completed the catechesis as members of the community: how about if someone stops going to celebrations for a long period of time and then does not attend the steps with the catechists either? Won't he or she eventually end up in another community if this person decides to come back after many years but having missed major steps? This person would speak with the catechists and they would decide, based on what is best for the person, how he or she would continue.
From this you can see that, even though there is a "birth" of a community at the end of the initial catechesis and a welcoming event in the parish where the brothers and sisters are introduced as a certain community, "membership" in the community works only inasmuch as they are recipients of the spiritual goods of the itinerary. If the proper reception of these spiritual goods require it, a person can change community. The same goes for those who no longer wish to be recipients of the NCW's spiritual goods: they are referred to as those who "left the Way" in the common parlance. In essence, what happened to them was that they stopped receiving the faith formation, but without formal renunciation of "membership". That is also why you won't find the word "member" in the Statute referring to a recipient of the NCW. Also in the way we speak, we usually say that a brother or a sister of a community walks or doesn't walk in the community, which is similar to the dynamism of receiving much more than to some static membership.
Once again, I am not saying that whenever someone uses the word "member" it has to be corrected, but that we should have a correct understanding of the nature of the NCW while we use common parlance which is not strictly speaking correct.
Dear Nagyszakall,
DeleteI never said that it does not fulfill the Sunday Mass obligation. Because I am involved in the parish, I find myself also attending the Sunday Mass in the parish despite that I have already gone to the Eucharistic celebrations. Okay, I shall use the word "recipient" instead of member. :)
Semantics. Why would Cardinal Arinze, on behalf of the Pope, include in his letter (which is actually still present in the approved statutes at footnote 49) this instruction to attend the "parish Mass", if the Holy Father thought there was no problem in the private masses of the NCW?
DeleteClearly the Holy Father saw that the current practise of the private NCW mass was not sufficient for the unity of the parish, and for the members of the NCW.
So you can argue all you like that the problem has dissolved away since the Statutes consider the NCW masses as part of the normal sunday liturgies of the parish, but if nothing has changed you are really just playing a semantic game.
Semantics, too, in regard to the "membership"/"recipient" business. The NCW looks, acts and propagates itself like an organisation, or a movement. I agree that in fact it should look more like an "itinerary of formation", such as the RCIA, but it clearly does not. When was the last time you saw "recipients" of the spiritual goods of the RCIA having their own private masses (let alone for thirty plus years); having their own seminaries and so on.
The most obvious problem with this description is the obligatory "The Church did nothing for me - it was useless to me. But the NCW changed my life and saved me; saved my parent's marriage because they were just about to divorce; saved me from suicide etc. In this, the "recipients" of the NCW construct a dichotomy between "ordinary Catholic faith" and their own superior brand. This is not only characteristic of the NCW testimony, it is what NCW members actually believe, and is at the heart of the division caused wherever the NCW exist in strength.
The WAY was was of the original titles for the Christian Faith. Excuse, us. we are the Way.
Deletehere we go again...discussions...point....counter point.....
Deletewhy can't we just realize......open our eyes to the very miracle that is unfolding before us.
The RMS at Yona was not possible without the work of the Holy Spirit. It did not materialize because of the work of Arch Bishop Apuron.
Now multiple this miracle 101 more and imagine how great the gifts we have been given.
While we are at it.......count the number of seminarians from all over the world who are in these seminaries......the teachers and professors.....the benefactors and all other lay people who are sustaining these institutions. Within each, imagine the true miracles that enabled a person to answer the call to serve......to die for everyone.
If everything we are witness's too are truly a gift of the Holy Spirit; it will flourish. If it is not....then it will die and drift away.
I believe it is flourishing
U are partially right it is semantics. People who say that the way did this for me are absolutely incorrect. They should say the church through the way did this for me.
DeleteHowever Statute approval is not semantics. 102 seminaries with 1000 ordained priests is not semantics. Arinze is not the pope, and his letter was clarified by later documents and papal speeches.
It is not a problem of superior brand but of community and the world we live in. it is harder to be a Christian today than it was 50 or even 20 years ago. Maybe you are so immune to temptation that you can live alone and battle against the world for your faith. I am not. I need to see other Christians who live the faith. And no. Sunday Catholics do not. They live to the best of their ability but most Catholics do not live catholic lives. And so it is necessary to support those who wish to live a deeper experience of God. And here is where God has inspired movements and charisms. And here is where the NCW fits in. Equal to other charisms and no better or worse but each different to the other are opus CL focolAre s. Egidio charismatic renewal the Carthusians Franciscans of the renewal missionaries is the word missionaries of charity etc etc etc etc.
Nobody in the way thinks he or she is better than anybody else. But my living the faith radically questions the way other Catholics live their faith. A couple who goes to mass every Sunday and is on the pill is going to feel their use of the pill questioned when they see a family of 10 children. The people w the 10 kids don't have to say anything. Just their presence questions the others lifestyle. Do they think themselves superior? No! And btw 10 kids are not semantics.
Anon 7:41,
DeleteYou say..."Nobody in the way thinks he or she is better than anyone else"
Speak for yourself, because I have met many who would contradict your statement. Your leader Kiko has made statements that tells you that he thinks the are better, and therefore it is justified to force themselves into parishes. That is not Christian like no matter how much you quote scripture.
Dear Anonymous at 9:13 pm,
DeleteYou say that Kiko has made those statements. Could you provide the weblink where you actually heard Kiko made those statements?
No one forces themselves into parishes. The pastor invites catechists to come to his parish. No one forces anyone to go ta a catechesis. Catechists invite people to go and listen. KIKO does not think the way better he does think the Catholic Church is how God has chosen to reveal himself to the world. As Catholics we are compelled to evangelize. To tell the good news to each other and to the world. It is a work of mercy. perhaps you have had a bad experience or seen someone who walks and says he is "in the way" behave in an unchristian manner. All I can say to that is forgive us. We are sinners. We desire to be Christ-like but will always fall short. That is why we need the church and Jesus savior. Have u never done anything that is unchristian? Remember gods mercy towards u and be merciful w us. If we were all like Christ we would not need the church.
DeleteAnonymousJanuary 23, 2015 at 9:13 PM - you posting is purely passing judgement and evidently envy and lastly assumption. Sensing anger, have you ever sat down to any person or people who are in in community. If not this is pure speculation.
Delete@ 5:43,
DeleteHow in the world can you say that I'm envious or angry. Is that your standard neo response. You are way off. Yes I have sat down. My mother is a responsible and relative is a catechist. It is not judgement, but simply observation, and not pure speculation.
"Arinze is not the pope, and his letter was clarified by later documents and papal speeches. "
DeleteDo you mena when Pope Benedict said this:
"However, every Eucharistic celebration is an action of the one Christ together with his one Church and is therefore essentially open to all who belong to his Church. This public character of the Blessed Eucharist is expressed in the fact that every celebration of Holy Mass is ultimately directed by the bishop as a member of the Episcopal College, responsible for a specific local Church (cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 26). It is the task of the celebration in the small communities — regulated by the liturgical books that must be faithfully followed, with the details approved in the Statue of the Way — to help all who follow the Neocatechumenal itinerary to perceive the grace of being inserted in the saving mystery of Christ which makes possible a Christian witness that can assume radical features. At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented (cf. Statute, art. 6). Nevertheless in this process it is also important not to be separate from the parish community, precisely in the celebration of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all, where the Lord embraces us in the different states of our spiritual maturity and unites us in the one bread that makes us one body (cf. 1 Cor 10:16f.). "
Lets look at that again
"At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented "
In other words, the NCW private Masses are no and end in themsleves but meant to bring people into the celebration of the Eucharist with the larger parish.
Um...yea! Read the statutes. That is exactly the objective. A long itinerary of faith where people discover rediscover convert to the faith in small communities so that they are brought back into the church. There is no such thing as A private mass. There is THE MASS celebrated at different times in different places. There is no NCW mass, there is THE MASS celebrated in small communities that is open to all. It is simply another time. please explain how this is different from any other mass.
DeleteYes please explain if the objective is to bring them back into the main church by way of the small communities, why is the neo mass celebrated differently from the mass in the main church?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:22 pm,
DeleteWe already explained this to you so many times. We already said that we had the permission of then Pope Benedict XVI. If you do not believe us, then by all means...write a letter to the Nuncio and let them know your concerns. In the meantime, we will follow what we were instructed by the Pope.
Diana, there is a difference between the words, PERMISSION and INSTRUCTION... Your mass is under the INSTRUCTION of Kiko. The NCW was given PERMISSION by the Pope so long as the NCW the Magestrim.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:13 am,
DeleteKiko received permission from the Pope to follow the Mass according to the Pope's instruction.
Instructed by the Pope? I highly doubt it Diana.
DeleteIgnite the spiritual fires of your own soul. Carefully study your Bible with the aid of good resource materials. Remember you are the church; the place where you study and worship on Sunday is a building. Support your church fellowship with regular attendance. Frequently pray for your church leaders. Look for ways to encourage your brothers and sisters in Christ. Discover your own unique and best method of witnessing to others and do it often. Give freely and generously of your time, talents,
ReplyDeletemoney, and prayers, remembering all that you have or ever hope to have belongs to God. Believe in your church and speak highly of its accomplishments and possibilities. Systematically invite people to attend study and worship with you on Sunday as well as on other occasions. Don’t spend a lot of time criticizing others for what your church is not doing. Do something yourself. When you use your church building facilities, seek to leave it better than when you found it. Frequently ask your church leaders, “What can I do to help?”. When you are prone to criticize your minister and others, remember that they are human and therefore also make their fair share of mistakes. Refuse to harbor hard feelings toward anyone. When you attend a church business meeting, attend with a Christ-like spirit. Look for the good and the constructive. Encourage frequent and wise use of your church building facilities. Endeavor to get all the facts about events, happenings, and decisions in your church before offering your advice on most subjects. Lend your enthusiastic support to new forms of worship, programming, and outreach. Be an active member of a prayer and work group. When your co-workers do something worthwhile, tell them about it. When members sin, love them, forgive them, care for them, and let bygones be bygones. Dare to dream creative and constructive dreams of what your church can become. Pursue your creative and constructive dreams for your church as if your church depended on you and you alone. In all things for your Christian life and church, first of all ask, “What would Jesus do?”
'You can tell a tree by its fruits'. These are the words of Jesus in the gospel. What are the fruits of the NCW? Let's look: seminaries, vocations to the priesthood and monastery, evangelization in the the parishes, the youth scrutatio, couples being open to life, missionary zeal of lay people, people who have left the church and now return, etc. These are fruits NOT produced by the catechists, or Kiko or Fr. Pius, these are fruits produced by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not monopolized by the NCW because there are also many fruits in the parishes without the NCW, So, if the holy spirit produces these fruits and if the same spirit uses whatever means available in the church such as the movements, the clergy, the laity etc., then WE ALL should allow the Holy Spirit to direct out lives to obey the Lord so that the fruits of the spirit may appear in those who follow the promptings of the Lord. The fruits of the spirit are love, peace, humility and forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteLook at the fruits of the 'horror' aka Junglewatch, then we see the complete opposite. There we see hatred, name calling, pride, presumption, calumnies and a host of other bad fruits that are the result of the evil spirit that prompt hatred. I hope Tim obeys what Archbishop Hon Tai Fai told him to do.
Diana, did you see Timmy's latest post? He got a hold of the Internal Review of the Catholic Cemeteries and posted it in his blog. Timmy posted this news FIRST on the social media. So, AAA didn't go to the media first. The information was leaked to Timmy, and Timmy went to the media first by publishing it in his blog.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:07 am,
DeleteThank you for the information. It is interesting that Tim Rohr appear upset. Did he not say that he wanted the report of the Catholic Cemeteries published? And now it has been published in his blog. I do not see that information anywhere in KUAM or PDN or even in Pacific News Center. I wonder if Monsignor Benavente knows that Tim Rohr was the first one who published the report in his blog, which is a social MEDIA.
Be suspecting a wasted "AIRTIME" of his rant. Grow up ROHR!
DeleteThis report is in the Umatuna so the Chancery and bishop was first on this
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:52 am,
DeleteIn that case, I stand corrected. Now Tim Rohr and CCOG have their transparency. The Archdiocese has given them what they asked for.
With the report itself isn't it Rohr contradict himself Diana? Now the Air and Newspaper will be plagued with these individuals.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:26 pm,
DeleteYes, Tim Rohr contradicted himself. Do you remember the story aired by KUAM below?
http://www.kuam.com/story/26208174/2014/08/06/catholics-refute-archbishops-claims-about-church-finances?clienttype=mobile&config=H264
Joe Rivera and a few others came out to refute the Archbishop's claim. Now that the report is finally out, I do not hear any condemnation from Rohr or any of the jungle folks. Do they condone the actions of Monsignor James??
Joe Rivera/Gerald Taitano/Richard Untalan and Art Illagan stated that there is no Financial mismanagement by Msgnr James Benavente.
DeleteI was appalled and taken back by them challenging Delloite and Touche and Deacon Dominic Kim (CPA) that the numbers were not right?! Ha. Delloite and Touche one of the fab five accounting firm! Ha! SMH.....
What is the financial mismanagement on the part of Msgr James? Could you tell me, please, why he exactly had to be fired as the rector of the cathedral? About salaries, well, all clergy at the level of his position makes a good living. What is wrong with that?
DeleteChurch officials also have have allowances and credit cards at their disposal. If this is against the law then he should be subjected to law but not abuse. I did not see the list of those who received free cemetery spots. If it was a benefit of status then why to question him afterward?
Is it possible that the only “sin" of Msgr James is that he is a friend of Tim Rohr...?
Dear voice of faith,
DeleteIf you cannot see that what Monsignor James did is a white collar crime, then there is nothing anyone can do for you. Simply be thankful that Monsignor James did this crime against the Church because if he had done it to the government, he would have been in jail.
And yet you fail to see the white collar crimes of Archbishop Apuron. You're funny Diana.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:26 pm,
DeleteYou mean.......like giving away the Yona seminary to a corporation for free without taking any cash for himself????
Monsignor James, on the other hand, managed to get a lot of cash for himself and even managed to help get free cemetery plots for his friend and family.
WOW!! STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF DIANA!! ARCHBISHOP APURON GIVES AWAY THE YONA SEMINARY TO A CORPORATION FOR FREE!!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:26 pm,
DeleteI see that you faiedl to recognize the jungle hypocrisy in that statement. :) It had always been the jungle who claimed that the Archbishop gave a seminary to a corporation that would produce priests for Guam.......which is supposed to be a good thing. Why? Because the Archbishop got no money out of it, but gave Guam priestly vocations.
The second statement I made showed Monsignor James in a selfish light. Why? Because he got cash out of it. And instead of helping the poor, he helped his family and friends, leaving the people of Guam with nothing.......not even priestly vocations.
Re anonymous, jan 23 2015 at 10:42PM
ReplyDelete'You can tell a tree by its fruits'. These are the words of Jesus in the gospel. What are the fruits of the NCW? Let's look: seminaries, vocations to the priesthood and monastery, ..... But to a lot of Catholics, these fruits are believed to be attacked by a pestilence known as Satan. Satan, is a cunning deceiver who loves division especially in regards to the Sacrifice of the Mass - source and summit of our faith. I am greatly disturbed by what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his book "Spirit of the Liturgy" "Kneeling does not come from any culture - it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God.. (to kneel before) alone occurs 59X in the New Testament, 24 of which are in the Apocalypse, the Book of Heavenly Liturgy which is presented to the Church as the "Standard of her own Liturgy." Also, from the same book: "There is a story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain monk. The devil looked black and ugly, with frightenly thin limbs, but most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical." Also, from the same book: "There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. "It doesn't suit our culture" they say...It's not appropriate for redeemed man - he has been set free by Christ and doesn't need to kneel any more.. St Augustine said that the humility of Christ and His love, which went as far as the Cross, have freed us and we kneel before that humility. The kneeling of Christians is an expression of Christian culture which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God. (pg 184) The man who learns to believe, learns also to kneel; and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling, would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself (pg 194) Help me understand - because since the NCW cannot provide written documentation that the NCW Mass is approved with all its differences - this text of Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) seems to apply to the NCW. This is upsetting. Also, why do we see the "unapproved" Statutes of 2002 on the official Website of the NCW; and, why aren't the approved Statutes of 2008 followed? NO ONE I KNOW IN THE NCW can prove that the NCW Mass (as is) is acceptable to the Pope. Only response is "the Holy See says we can." Are the well-intentioned members of the NCW being deceived? Sincerely,
Kneeling is a sign of humility before God. "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth." How can you not kneel and still pray to Chist, Lord I am not worthy...?! If I would be a neo I would begin kneeling instantly during the Eucharistic prayer and during transubstantiation. Just because it is a beautiful thing to do.
DeleteDear whisper,
DeleteThe Eastern Catholics do not kneel, and they are in communion with the Pope.
Whisper! Read st. Thomas aquinas. The liturgy was made for man not for God. And the liturgy has changed over the centuries. The point of the liturgy is to aid the person's participation in order to more reverently receive r the sacrament and partake in it most efficaciously.
DeleteR u telling me that kneeling at consecration is more important than the lost sheep participating in the life of the church? It's like someone worried about turning off the stove when the whole house is on fire. The popes and liturgists don't have a problem with it why do u?
And it's not just in the Orthodox Church that they don't kneel, but in the Catholic Church too! In Europe they don't kneel in the same times we do.
Yes kneeling is a beautiful thing to do IF U UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS. It was introduced in our liturgy at a time when people where doubting the real presence. It helps informed Catholics to live the awsomness of the miracle of the Eucharist. For the orthodox and the early church kneeling is not a sign of reverence but of penance. And there is nothing penitential in the Eucharist! It is the culmination of all our hopes and joy. The point of vatican 2's reform of the liturgy and of the way and how we celebrate the mass is to rediscover the joy of the eucharist. The liturgy is made for man not for God.
DeleteIt's been said that the Eastern Catholics are a different Rite - thus the differences in their Mass. The NCW, not being a different Rite, doesn't seem to have the needed written permission (as per Redemptionis Sacramentum) for all the differences in their Mass. No one seems able to produce this permission except to say "the Holy See says we can."
DeleteThree years ago the NCW reassured me that very soon the Pope (Benedict XVI) was to give the NCW, in Rome, detailed written approval of their Mass. The NCW met with the Pope that very January 2012 and returned with no detailed written approval, and no explanation as to why not. Online, all I could find is the article "that strange mass that the pope doesn't like." This was very upsetting. So,.....
If there is written approval for the differences, please kindly reference them and provide where I can get a copy. Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 7:38 am,
DeleteAs far as I know, we have oral permission. If you have a problem with the oral permission, then you will have to write the nuncio or the Vatican and wait for their answer. In the meantime, we follow the oral instructions of Pope Benedict XVI, which was given to Kiko Arguello.
In the beginning, Kiko....I believe...with good intentions changed the Mass. Apparently there was a certain bishop who, in error, encouraged Kiko in these changes. However, these changes were not in accord with Vatican II.
ReplyDeleteThe NCW removed everything that spoke of the Mass being a Sacrifice. This was apparently done to make the Mass more protestant-friendly. Gone were the prayers that mentioned sacrifice, gone was the altar because that was where the sacrifice was held, gone was the mention of priests because it was priests that offered sacrifices, gone was the kneeling because transubstantiation was not believed in - no God truly present - no need to kneel in adoration...... Was there a valid Mass in those early days?? It is alleged that that bishop who encouraged Kiko was a Mason. Saint Padre Pio in the l960's referred to the NCW as the "new false prophets."
Thankfully, over the years the Popes have mercifully corrected "many" of the wrongs.
The Mass had the proper prayers re-instated, the NCW catechesis was corrected....
However, the approved Statutes of 2008, which would make the NCW in communion with Rome, are not observed (or even known to most of the NCW members) and their Directory is a "secret." There appears to still be problems that need correcting, not criticism. My prayers are with you.
U have many inaccuracies in ur post. I will address a few in particular. The mass was not made Protestant-friendly, all mentions of sacrifice is not removed and never was, p. Pio never spoke of the way and we absolutely always have and always will believe in transubstantiation.
DeleteThe mass is not Protestant freindly. What does that mean? Vatican 2 made changes to the liturgy and also recommended the altar be placed in the center of the assembly. The NCW did exactly that. All mention of the sacrifice were not removed. On the contrary everything is geared to make the consacration and all the prayers that mention sacrifice the central culminating part of the liturgy. Not only but one of the questions in one of the questionnaires on the Eucharist deals precisly with that. Transubstantiation. I do not know where u got this idea but u r wrong. Just wrong. So wrong that a whole day is spent talking about the miracle of the Eucharist in the Catechises. The final proof that we r in fact and indeed catholic is what u say. We have obeyed the pope in every recommendation. Yes. The arinze letter is actually an extremely valuable document because it sets in writing all the liturgical concessions made to the way. If you would like to read more documents please go to the NCW official website
The Eastern Catholics do not kneel, and they are in communion with the Pope. (jan 25 l0 PM)
ReplyDeleteThe above statement is not written approval for the NCW style of Mass in the Roman Rite. Neither is the statement," the Holy See says we can." Please accept this as a sincere attempt to correct, not criticize.
I love the people I know from the NCW. We are on this journey TOGETHER.
Dear Anonymous at 9:33 am,
DeleteI was responding to whisper who stated: "Kneeling is a sign of humility before God". The Eastern Catholics do not kneel, but that does not mean they are not humble.
Re Jan 26 2015 at 1206 am
ReplyDeleteYes kneeling is a beautiful thing to do IF U UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.
May I respond according to the wisdom of some saints and popes?
Exhortation on the Holy Eucharist - March 2007 Pope Benedict XVI (Sacramentum Caritatus) #65 says:
"A convincing indication of the effectiveness of Eucharistic catechesis is surely an increased sense of the mystery of God present among us. This can be expressed in concrete outward signs of reverence ofor the Eucharist which the process of mystagogy should inculcate in the faithful. I am thinking in general of the importance of gestures and posture, such as kneeling during the central moments of the Eucharistic Prayer."
Cardinal Ratzinger said:
"The act of kneeling during the Liturgy: Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ. Words could not replace such a confession."
Pope Benedict XVI, during his Papal Masses, wanted all those who received Communion from him, to receive kneeling and on the tongue. It is believed he wanted to emphasize that "Yes, This is the Lord!"
St. Francis of Assisi (in his letter to all Superiors of the Friars Minor) said:
"When the priest is offering sacrifices at the altar or the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about, everyone should kneel and give praise, glory, and honor to our Lord and God, living and true."
Kneeling "officially signifies adoration" (Ceremonial of Bishops Nos. 68-72 P. 36-37)
St. Anbthony of Padua once proved the Presence to an unbeliever. A mule (which had been starved for three days) KNELT before a monstrance containing the Blessed Sacrament (held by St. Anthony), in preference to devouring a basket of tempting oats right beside.
In the article Kneeling and Faith, it says:
...When Catholics "worship" by "bending the knee" in Eucharistic adoration, they strengthen belief in the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for themselves and for the entire Church. And when they can and do not, they weaken it....Kneeling, as an act of latria (adoration) of Jesus Christ.....testifies to all four fundamental doctrines better than the act of standing....if a person deliberately, and with full knowledge, discourages kneeling at the Consecration or genuflection before the Blessed Sacrament, he or she is "anathema" C.T.(cf.n.878) (Fr. Scanlan, Homiletic & Pastoral Review, Aug. 1994)
From St. Lucia's memoirs (The Story of Fatima):
1917 (less than l00 years ago)
Then the angel appeared to us for the third time. He was holding a Chalice in his hand. A Host was over it, from which fell some drops of Blood into the Chalice. Leaving the Chalice and Host suspended in mid-air, he prostrated himself on the ground, repeating this prayer three times; (the three children did the same)
"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore You profoundly and offer You the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all tabernacles of the earth, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifferences by which He Himself is offended. And by the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg ou the conversion of poor sinners."
The angel then arose and holding the Chalice and the Host again, he gave the Host to Lucia and the contents of the Chalice to Jacinta and Francisco, while he said:
"Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God."
He prostrated himself again on the ground and repeated with the children there, three times the prayer "Most Holy Trinity...." Then he disappeared.....The three of them remained kneeling on the ground for a long while, repeating over and over again the inspired, heartstirring prayer of the angel.
exactly proving the point that kneeling needs to be taught and explained. The NCW is an itinerary of faith for people to discover/rediscover the faith. This is done not by teaching like in college but through experience. If u r a catholic of mature faith u don't need the way! But most Catholics don't even know why the church teaches what it teaches or why it teaches. The center of our faith is the incarnation death and resurrection of our lord. Before one learns to kneel he or she needs to experience the explosion of joy that comes from the knowing God!!! Only if u know him can u love him and serve him. U cannot ask someone to who has just started the way it has been walking a few years to run or fly when he can't even walk. This is why we don't kneel. But the little by little everything is brought back because the goal is to participate in the life of the church not because someone told u it was right but because u have experienced that the church is right. And the church is ONE!
DeleteReally 12:19? Young children are taught the importance of kneeling before our God even before their first holy communion. As adults, you guys can be easily taught the importance of kneeling even though you guys are immature in your faith. The problem is that Kiko teaches different. Open your eyes.
DeleteThe problem is that u don't know the difference between experiencing the joy of the resurrection and kneeling in front of the blessed sacrament. The one is an action of God in the person the other is an act of reverence or penance that man does to God. The first is the reason of our existence the other is a way to prepare urself for that action. What the NCW the Trappist, all of Europe and many others believe is that within the mass one can prepare oneself to receive the lord in different ways. U feel that kneeling is better? Then kneel! However the objective of the NCW is to allow all people to experience the life changing joy that makes u transcend of the Eucharist. And to do that not alone but within a community. And the symbolism that best serves this purpose is not kneeling but standing. U quibble about wether the sea is blue or acqua marine.
Deletere AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 12:35 PM
ReplyDeleteSorry, it sounds like you must have joined the NCW before you were exposed to the many errors that were in the initial stages. You fortunately got the revised catechesis after several years of it being corrected by Rome. I know there are some NCW priests who were not NCW seminarians (those priests who were introduced into the NCW) who still hold fast to their original teachings of transubstantiation, etc. Not all NCW priests are the same in their thinking or teaching. Depends which seminary they attended. Are you not curious as to "why" the NCW seminaries will NOT allow men who want to become priests to enter "their" seminaries if they are not members of the NCW?
Just so you understand, I am not knocking the wonderful sincere people who are in the Way. But, it is the wish of the Popes that the NCW conform to the instructions set in the Roman Missal. And, the Way is to be a stepping stone into the community celebrating the Mass according to the Roman MIssal.. It was never meant to take those from celebrating the Mass according to the Roman Missal and convincing them to celebrate the NCW Mass by telling them the NCW Mass has been approved by Rome.
Ask some of the old-timers or do the research- Sorry, mention of sacrifice was eliminated, prayers were removed. I've talked to some of the older NCW priests about this. They say, "we put them back in and are now saying all the prayers in the Roman Missal. However, the "actions" in the NCW Mass are definitely still different from what is mandated in the Roman Missal. And, to date, the NCW, cannot provide written permission for all the individual differences. Ask your presbyter, bishop, responsibles, or Kiko for this written permission. It doesn't exist. That is why they say "the Holy See says we can."
Sorry, my post still stands as true.
And in any case faithfulness to peter and his successors is the mark of Catholicism. The fact that the NCW has changed to obey the pope proves its Catholicism.
DeleteFaithfulness to Christ is the mark of Catholicism. The problem is we
Deletehave made God's reign all about Church... that is problematic.
do not make assumptions. U r wrong. I am an old timer. And have used old books and now new books. U suffer from grave misapprehensions and the fact that u accuse NCW of not following the roman missal shows ur ignorance. I repeat check out the official NCW website for all the dovuments u want. As well as the published books with papal speeches made about NCW and those written by Cardinal cordes. As well as YouTube videos showing popes accepting modifications to the liturgy as they celebrated with communities. Btw ratzinger then bishop of Munich is the one who first introduced the way in Germany and then ratified books when he was at fide. U have an enchanting mix of half lies and disinformation which I find very disturbing. Priest from rsm or not may believe in errors. They r men and men tend to sin. Do u believe in the doctrine of original sin? I do. If u really have met a priest who denies the real presence u have done a disservice to all Catholics especially the weak ones by not reporting him to his bishop.
ReplyDeleteI repeat prayers were not removed. So much so that u cannot give one specific example. I am not curious as to why rsm seminaries do not admit men who have not had faith formation in the way because I know why. rsm's mission is to form priest for the new evangelization. Jesuits don't admit men who haven't a done the ignatian spiritual excercise do u have a problem with that? Finally if you really want the truth we follow the roman missal much more to the letter. We have no women Eucharistic ministers our bread is baked fresh ad hoc, to just mention 2 examples off the top of my head.
Anything else u want me to correct? I cite specifics. U only make vague allegations.
Seeing that the conversion of those attending the 6-week catechesis comes BEFORE they are exposed to the Way's Mass, why can't the Way's Mass follow the Roman Missal in Word and Action. There wouldn't even have to be a "separate" Saturday Mass, and in many cases families would be able to celebrate the Mass together instead of being separated because they were in different stages of the NCW. Then the NCW could "meet" after the Mass. There really is no need to expose them to a Mass that has no written approval from Rome.
ReplyDeleteReference Redemptionis Sacramentum by Cardinal Arinze and Cardinal Ratzinger for Pope John Paul II- 2(28): All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recogitio (written permission), without which they LACK ANY BINDING FORCE.
We are not Protestants who believe in a one time conversion and then say I was saved on such and such a day. Conversion is a day by day act that will never end until u take ur last breath.
DeleteAnd it is exactly arinze, ratzinger and JP2 who approved all the liturgical modifications. So what is ur point?
DeleteThe point is since we're supposed to be ONE in union with Jesus Christ, come and let's have the mass together with the main parish. No more separation please.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:41 pm,
DeleteEvery Church has different Masses at different times. A church can have two or three Masses in one day. Are you going to tell the priest to have only ONE Mass so EVERYONE in the village can attend that one Mass??? The only one who sees a separation is you. Who are you to tell the NCW to get rid of the Mass when the Pope already gave us the permission to celebrate the Eucharist in small communities.
Once again, you misunderstand Diana. Of course we know a church can have many masses in one day. The point is to have the neos come and celebrate mass with the main parish and do away with the separatist mass.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:59 pm,
DeleteOnce again you misunderstood. The Pope already said that we can celebrate the Mass in small communities. The Pope NEVER said to do away with the Mass we celebrate. Therefore, we will follow the Pope.
But why do u call them separatist masses? neocatechen masses are just another parish mass. R u saying keep all mass at all different times except the neocathechen one? I don't understand. Why? Every mass is equal but some are more equal than others? That's very Orwellian. And kind of scary that u should think that.
DeleteRe: AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 12:19 PM
ReplyDeleteMay I explain what has happened here? People, many of them widows, mature in their Catholic faith, 20,30...70 years of joyfully and faithfully serving the parish have been led to believe that the Pope(s) have approved the Way's Mass; this due partly because they adore and believe their pastor who brought this in. That is why they sadly conform to the NCW's instructions of no kneeling. (Most of them would prefer to kneel in adoration.) These people, mostly widows, have developed wonderful friendships with each other and love the breaking open the Word of God - the NCW has caught them Hook, Line, and Sinker so to speak.
Because they like the Way and like their pastor, they will not present their concerns. This is why I do.
You say "Only if u know him can u love him and serve him. U cannot ask someone to who has just started the way it has been walking a few years to run or fly when he can't even walk. This is why we don't kneel."
Sorry, there is only one real reason the NCW don't kneel; unfortunately, it is because NCW mandates it. That, my friend, is a very sad reason to refrain from adoring our Lord in the manner the Roman Missal says.
Reference Redemptionis Sacramentum Chapter l (18):
Christ's faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be "anyone's private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated."
"The NCW mandates it" I find ur tone v offensive. "Have been led to believe that the pope approved it" more offensive. But the pope did. He signed the statutes. And then Benedict met w KIKO carmen and Mario and they went through the mass step by step.
DeleteAnyhow, I'll keep answering civilly although u don't really care and just desire to stir the pot with really inane examples.
well the Trappist don't kneel or cross themselves when they salute the blessed sacrament. Oh and they don't kneel during consacration. Would u like to contact all their houses and complain of their lack of devotion and not adherence to praxis? I've also been to a Benedictine monastery where not only do they not kneel but they pray to the four winds. Wanna call them too?
U cut my quote to distort meaning. That's ok. I'll reitirate. Catechumens are not people who know theology. They r in the way to learn and experience our faith. The liturgy is adapted to those needs. Since kneeling is, yes a sign of reverence, but also a penitential sign, then we do not kneel. This is in order to focus on the joyous experience of the sacrifice and resurrection (u do know the 2 r inseparable right?) of our lord. If u like kneeling go kneel! However I repeat there r plenty of adaptations to the liturgies made to accommodate different congregations bc once again liturgy is made for man not man for the liturgy and certainly God does not need the liturgy.
U r precisly correct. Liturgy is not YOUR property. I'm sure tridintines believe u r not showing reverence by not kneeling when u receive and consume. Thankfully Benedict issued a motu proprio to precisly guarantee different styles of celebrating the mass which is ONE.
You have now accused people walking in the way of irreverence, deceit, disobedience, stealing, bullying, and lying. Please don't insult us anymore. And don't say its leaders vs followers because that just insults our intelligence.
Re:AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 12:19 PM
ReplyDelete"Only if u know him can u love him and serve him. U cannot ask someone to who has just started the way it has been walking a few years to run or fly when he can't even walk. This is why we don't kneel."
-------------------
Unfortunately, the reason why we don't kneel here is not because our members don't have a personal relationship with our Lord. Many of our members, are widows, with 20,30....70 years of faithfully and joyfully serving the Lord in the Church before the NCW came. The reason why we don't kneel here is because we are told not to kneel in adoration. There is no valid reason why the NCW should remove kneeling. Kneeling shows unbelievers that we believe something very special is happening during the Eucharistic Prayer. What better way to evangelize! We were also told to receive Jesus in our hands, even though receiving Jesus in our hands is an indult, and receiving Jesus on the tongue is the norm in our Catholic faith and no priest is supposed to refuse this manner in receiving at any Mass. Our culture of kneeling and receiving Jesus on the tongue were removed.
Reference: Redemptionis Sacramentum Chapter one (18)
Christ's faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be "anyone's private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated"
Well then go to Sunday mass. If my kids need confirmation I take them to the children's mass. I my father dies I go to the funeral mass. If I am a neo catechumen I go to the neo catechumen mass. Who forces u to go? I don't get ur point. However no one can communicate before the celebrant so if u receive all together and wait for the celebrant to consume before u consume then I don't know how u would receive on the tongue.
DeleteDear AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 7:31 PM who states:
DeleteI apologize that you took my post as offensive. My intention was to correct, not to criticize. I see that the NCW is very important in your life and God sees the hearts of each and every one that belongs to the Way. I'm sure He is very pleased that the members seek to love and serve Him.
But, He sees my heart too - I too seek to love and serve Him. When something needs to be corrected, it must be done with great charity; I had hoped my post would not offend, but would shed a little light on why the NCW Mass needs to be changed. If I didn't present the truth as given to me, I would be guilty in the eyes of God for letting errors be perpetuated. Are the NCW so attached to their Mass, that they would fall apart if they were asked to change? I don't think so; I think they love the Lord too much for that. Let us pray that God's will be done.
In the meantime, ask your leaders for the "written permission" to celebrate the Mass the way they do. It is not in the "approved Statutes of 2008." Shalom.
Dear AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 7:11 PM
DeleteNo one forces me to go to the Neo Mass. It, however, is a grave concern when bishops allow and sometimes force the Neo Mass in the parishes which don't want it.
And yes, no one can communicate before the celebrant - which means the NCW should not communicate before the celebrant receives BOTH the Body and Blood of our Lord.
And yes, I don't know how I would be able to receive on the tongue - yet, Rome states that anyone who wishes to do so MUST NOT be denied. Any ideas?
I appreciate ur apology and it honestly makes me feel like there is a point to this dialogue not just silly bickering.
DeleteOk. So u do not like the concession to the NCW liturgy. That is perfectly acceptable. I'm not a fan of charismatic masses but that is my personal taste.
We disagree on the papal approval and I think we have discussed enough to say that while I Believe that the concessions are approved because of the statutes the documents letters oral statements and the fact that popes have celebrated the mass w communities u do not agree because u do not see everything in writing. Fair enough.
Since u do not contest my Trappist and children's mass examples I assume u agree that the Vatican allows for liturgical diversity.
And I agree. The mass is the mass regular Sunday, Trappist, children, charismatic, tridintine or Neocat and that I can go to any and meet the lord there.
How's this: since none of the dicasteries and none of the popes have banned the way or said to stop the neocat mass, can u suspend ur judgement and say let us wait for the times of the lord? If the NCW is not from God then he will destroy it, the popes will dissolve it or it will just fizzle out and die. If it is from God then it will continue to flourish. Until the time when this becomes clear to u, let us work together for the good of the one universal church suspending judgement on each other.
ReplyDeleteRe: DianaJanuary 26, 2015 at 9:59 AM says:
"As far as I know, we have oral permission. If you have a problem with the oral permission, then you will have to write the nuncio or the Vatican and wait for their answer. In the meantime, we follow the oral instructions of Pope Benedict XVI, which was given to Kiko Arguello."
Firstly, if oral permission exists, does one not believe that the Pope would have told the NCW crowd of 7000 which gathered in Rome January 2012? Kiko and many of his followers were expecting this to happen. A NCW priest told me this would happen; it did not.
Secondly, never has a Pope celebrated the NCW-styled Mass AT HOME in Rome. If the Pope OK'd this NCW Mass, does one not think that the Pope would have celebrated the NCW Mass for the 7000 Neos who came from across the world to see him?
Thirdly, does not one wonder why the Pope would not tell the "whole" church of such an important decision. The Pope would not keep this secret from the rest of his flock. It just causes confusion and hostility.
Fourthly, Chapter one (28) of Redemptionis Sacramentum (written by Cardinal Arinze and Cardinal Ratzinger (future Pope Benedict) FOR Pope John Paul II says:
"All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be SUBMITTED to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the RECOGNITIO (written permission), without which they lack any binding force."
It appears that the responsibility lies with the bishops to receive this "written approval" for the NCW Mass. That is why one must ask the NCW bishops for this written approval - it cannot be oral.
No written permission means no approval.
The Pope is a "gentle"man. He does not break the bent reed. The reed is very important to mankind, especially in this day and age. Can one not see that it needs to be straightened?
Sincerely,
So u r saying the pope has to repeat himself everytime he meets w communities? I don't know what kind of job u have, but doesn't ur boss expect u to do things the first time he tells u to? Benedict said what concessions we could keep and Francis has confirmed them, U know when? When he dismissed the feria quarta. Why do u feel u need to be more pope than the pope?
DeleteShow us the written permission from the CDW....otherwise your eucharist/mass is bogus and meant to divide the church....
ReplyDeleteso Anon 9:16AM - are you saying Pope Benedict and Saint John Paul II is bogus??????? Go to the Vatican see for yourself. If not convincing enough pick up the phone and call Pope Emeritus yourself.
DeletePlease do.
Dear Anonymous at 9:16 am,
DeleteAs anonymous poster pointed out just above you....if your boss told you to do something, are you going to do it or not? If you wait until someone hands him a pen and paper to write it down for you, I guarantee you will not have a job left.
If you feel that the NCW is doing the Mass incorrectly, then by all means.....go write to the Nuncio about it. In the meantime, we will do what our Boss (the Pope) told us to do.
Re comment about if boss tells you to do something, does one wait to see it in writing before we do it. Of course not. However, this is not the case with the NCW.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the Popes that are telling the NCW to celebrate the Mass the way they do, it's Kiko telling the Pope how he believes it should be done. This, my friend, is the big difference.
Reference:The Neocatechumenals obey the Pope- But in their Own Way - Sandro Magister - March 2006.
When the Pope wanted them to "pass to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion" within no more than two years' time, (among other things in that letter dated Dec. l, 2005 written by Cardinal Arinze on behalf of the Pope), Kiko, Carmen, and Father Pezzi, in their reply to Pope Benedict XVI, said that they were willing to "follow in every way, with great respect and obedience, the rubrics of the Roman Missal." But on the crucial point of communion, they made it very clear that they want to keep going their own way. Regarding the passing to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion" within TWO years' time - this was not taken seriously. Kiko instead thanks the Holy Father for granting them two more years and then returns to defending their manner of distributing communion. And, they emphatically state that communion in this way is an ESSENTIAL instrument for CONVERTING those who are far removed from the Church, and that abandoning it would compromise their mission. (refer to reference below which shows this is not true)
The letter of Kiko, Carmen and Father Pezzi to the Pope was then distributed by them to all the leaders of the NCW who received it as an official directive for their respective communities.
It was not a directive from the Pope; it was a directive from Kiko, Carmen, and Father Pezzi. It was not an approval from the Pope; it was an approval from Kiko, Carmen, and Father Pezzi. It was not a case of the BOSS (Pope) telling his employee what to do, but rather an employee telling his boss (Pope) he knows better and he plans to keep doing what his boss wants him to change.
Refer to AnonymousJanuary 26, 2015 at 4:26 PM:
Seeing that the conversion of those attending the 6-week catechesis comes BEFORE they are exposed to the Way's Mass, why can't the Way's Mass follow the Roman Missal in Word and Action. There wouldn't even have to be a "separate" Saturday Mass, and in many cases families would be able to celebrate the Mass together instead of being separated because they were in different stages of the NCW. Then the NCW could "meet" after the Mass. There really is no need to expose them to a Mass that has no written approval from Rome.
Reference Redemptionis Sacramentum by Cardinal Arinze and Cardinal Ratzinger for Pope John Paul II- 2(28): All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recogitio (written permission), without which they LACK ANY BINDING FORCE.
Dear Anonymous at 3:55 pm,
DeleteSandro Magister is Anti-Neo. He also severely criticize Pope Francis. Do you really expect me to believe someone who criticized the Pope? According to the weblink below:
The lecture finally came to a scandal. Magister so openly expressed his criticism of Pope Francis, that Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Pozzo had to leave the room. "The response of Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Pozzo is indicative of the currently prevailing climate in Rome," the website Chiesa e Postconcilio (Church and Post-Conciliar). "Was it because of the time for both of them or was it simply a precaution, because of the polite but harsh criticism by Magister of Pope Francis?
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2013/10/scandal-cardinal-burke-and-archbishop.html
Diana, the Pope is not and never has been above criticism, except in faith matters. Many criticize Pope Francis because he abandoned the cautious ways of his predecessor, Pope Benedict. In particular, criticism had been expressed several times for pushing the agenda of the neocats. Sandro Magister is one of those who expressed his view in this regard. Is there anything wrong with that, Diana?
DeleteAre you not confusing me with someone else, Diana? I have never talked about disobedience of anyone! By the way, I don't think you can disobey when you follow your own conscience. Your conscience is is direct connection to the Holy Spirit... Pope Francis is justly criticized for pushing the neocat agenda. He is quite liberal in family planning and gay rights. Now wonder he is also liberal with the neocat. But he puts any further chance of his own canonization into grave danger. Lol.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:02 pm,
DeleteAre you not the Anonymous person who said to read The Neocatechumenals obey the Pope- But in their Own Way by Sandro Magister - March 2006?
And for your information, your conscious can also mislead a person. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
In other words, if a person does not have a well-formed moral conscience, it can lead to erroneous judgments. Also, the NCW is not liberal and neither is Pope Francis.
Dear Anonymous at 7:21 pm,
DeleteYou say that it is okay for Sandro Magister to criticize the Pope. So, why is it that when Kiko was misconstrued in his letter as disagreeing with the Pope, you call it "disobedience"??? Why is it that when Archbishop Apuron express his disagreement with Cardinal Arinze, it is called "disobedience?"
Dear AnonymousJanuary 27, 2015 at 8:25 AM
ReplyDeleteYou said: "I appreciate ur apology and it honestly makes me feel like there is a point to this dialogue not just silly bickering." Yes, dialogue is very important. But, if we don't get to the truth, whether I'm wrong or you're wrong, one of us will perpetuate a wrongness. This is why we must continue to dialogue (with gentleness and a true concern and love for the other party. O.K?) ........
I read an article "Neocatechumenals Obey the Pope but in their Own Way" by Sandro Magister; I would like you to read it and let me know what you think. (Can find it on Google.) I'm especially referring to the part where the NCW was asked to change the Mass back to "the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion" within no more than two years time. The details of this request and others are set forth in the Letter by Cardinal Arinze for Pope Benedict XVI on December l, 2005 addressed to the heads of the NCW.
In this report, it just seems to me that the heads of the NCW didn't interpret this letter rightly; and, in turn, have passed on to its members their version. If that is the case, members who care about the Way have the right to voice their concern and must voice their concern for correction. Please let me know what you think.
You also stated:
" If the NCW is not from God then he will destroy it, the popes will dissolve it or it will just fizzle out and die. If it is from God then it will continue to flourish."
I don't think anyone wants to see the NCW fail; I know I don't. I would love to be part of the Wednesday group sharing and discussing the Word of God. But, I am not welcome because I will not go to their Mass. Irregardless, I still agree with the Popes when they say that the NCW is very important in our world. Our world is in a mess and the NCW is populating the earth with on-fire-for-the-Lord members. (But, sorry, do not be offended when I say - I see that they can become "better" if they would celebrate Mass with the rest of us. We, I believe, need to see and feel the zeal of your families in the pews so we too can become "better"...more interest in the Word of God, more generosity with our time for the Church and its mission of evangelization, a better understanding of family (Humanae Vitae), more interest in Vocations........
You state that you believe in the concessions because of the Statutes, and the fact that popes have celebrated the NCW Mass with the NCW.
However, my search reveals that the approved Statutes are those from 2008, and the NCW is following that of 2002. And, the fact that popes have celebrated the Mass with the NCW - well, how else would the popes get a true sense of what the NCW Mass is? I know that the NCW was granted a period of experimentation; but, that apparently ended - hence the letter from Cardinal Arinze on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI in 2005. This is why I believe what I do. Hope we can find the truth by continuing this dialogue. Sincerely
May we journey together as One Body.
Diana
ReplyDeleteA purebred mocker.
JoleneJanuary 28, 2015 at 8:14 PM
Lol and LMAO, dear voice! I haven't seen this latest blunder of Diana yet. This is so ridiculous. Poor Jack, what ordeal he has to endure because of me. ;)
Anyway, I am truly flattered that I am compared to Chuck White. He has a very thorough and well researched WEB-site challenging every single bits of the neo theology. This is what I call quality of thought. Well, what the neo does is more like IDEOLOGY and not theology. It lacks any quality of thought and does not measure up to be called true theology... Even Diana admits that all the time when she cuts short the discussion in utter exasperation.
Dear Anonymous at 9:39 pm,
DeleteI am not surprised. In the first place, I never said that Jack and Jolene was Chuck W/hite. It was Anonymous January 27, 2015 at 9:47 pm who made that comment. Both Jolene and voice of faith made the blunder because they obviously they did not bother to read as usual. :)
Re:DianaJanuary 28, 2015 at 10:24 PM
DeleteDear Diana,
I am the Anonymous who asked to the read "the Neocatechumenals obey the Pope, but in their own Way. I, however, am not the Anonymous who is criticizing the Pope and yes I agree with you about the person does not have a well-formed moral conscience, can lead to erroneous judgments. Also, you say the NCW is not liberal and neither is Pope Francis. I believe this too.
That being said, the above mentioned article contains some very pertinent information that should not be dismissed. There is truth there. Yes, the writer has become frustrated that no one in the NCW wants to look seriously at it, and thereby harmed his believability. Sometimes, a person's emotions about a subject that they feel strongly about, causes them to say harsh things that I'm sure they later regret. But that is certainly not an unforgivable sin. We all sin.
Let us calmly sort out the truth from the untruths.
CCC 1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
Praying that you take another look at the article mentioned above.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 10:24 pm,
DeleteThis is the part of the letter that Kiko wrote which many the jungle and many Anti-Neo construed as disobedience. According to Kiko's letter dated January 17, 2006 in response Cardinal Arinze's letter:
"We also wish to thank you for the benevolence, mercy, and goodness You have shown to those farthest away in allowing the moving of the sign of peace and in granting a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Communion of the Body and the Blood of the Lord: we have always shown to the many brothers who have emerged from hell, full of wounds and of self-loathing, that in the Holy Eucharist the Lord makes present his love, dying and rising for them; and not only that, but prepares a table, an eschatological banquet, which makes Heaven present and where He himself, full of love, has them sit down and comes to serve them: “He will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them” (Lk 12:37).
In this way, every time we celebrate the Eucharist we experience the power this sacrament has to draw them into the Passover of Christ, bringing them from sadness to joy, from darkness to light, from death to life…"
Because Kiko quoted Luke 12:37, I can see why some people interpret it as a "disagreement" with the Pope. Whether he disagreed or not, however..is not the point because disagreement is not the same as "disobedience." A disagreement is an difference of opinion, and anyone can differ in their opinions. However, the jungle and many Anti-Neos have taken that letter to mean that Kiko is disobeying the Pope.. Quoting Luke 12:37 is not disobedience." Disobedience is an act of transgression in which one refuses to obey. In that letter, Kiko never said that he will disobey.
Diana - finally this factual letter in presented here which the ROHR bit off from an italian anti NEO site.
DeleteQuoting Luke 12:37 doesn't have to mean disobedience or disagreement. I believe that Kiko, truly believes that this is the way their Mass should be celebrated and he uses this particular scripture from the Bible to illustrate that point. But here's what troubles me:
ReplyDeleteArinze’s letter Dec 1 2005 to Kiko, Carmen, and Fr. Pezzi:
"Following the conversations with this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist in the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way, in keeping with the guidelines issued in the meeting with you on November 11 of this year, I am to inform you of the Holy Father’s decisions.
In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything.".................."
"5. On the manner of receiving Holy Communion, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books."
--------
Heads of NCW's letter to the Pope, Jan.17 2006 re Arinze's letter 2005:
"After the Audience, all of the 700 itinerant catechists from all the nations met together, and we are very content with the “norms” that Cardinal Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, imparted to us in Your name. ..."
"We renewed together our willingness to follow in everything, with great respect and obedience, the rubrics of the Roman Missal (Gloria, Credo, Lavabo, Orate fratres, Agnus Dei…)."
[Diana, the prayers enclosed in ( )'s were those that referred to sacrifice that had been removed.]
"We also wish to thank you for ......... granting a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Communion of the Body and the Blood of the Lord: we have always shown to the many brothers who have emerged from hell......"
[Diana,the above statement should have read "We also wish to thank you for ....... the period of transition (not exceeding two years) granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in our communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. We realize "this means that the Neocatechumenal Way, must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books," " or similar, should it not?]
-----------
And these are the words of Benedict XVI relative to the rite of the Mass, in the address he gave to the Neocatechumenals on January 12, 2006:
“Recently the congregation for divine worship and the discipline of the sacraments imparted to you, in my name, some norms concerning the Eucharistic celebration, after the trial period that had been granted by the servant of God John Paul II. I am certain that these norms, which draw upon the provisions of the liturgical books approved by the Church, will meet with attentive compliance from you.”
Dear Anonymous at 2:39 pm,
DeleteThat is still not evidence that Kiko disobeyed the Pope. The Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way was approved in June 2008. Before that, I am certain that there were many discussions between Kiko and the Vatican as to how the Way should receive the Body of Christ. In fact, it was even reported in the news that Kiko had a private meeting with Pope Benedict XVI regarding Holy Communion in the Way.
After the Statutes were approved in 2008, there was indeed a change in the way the NCW receive the Body of Christ. Previously, we would receive the Body of Christ sitting down. After the passage of the Statutes, we now receive the Body of Christ standing and then we sit to contemplate on the Lord's Body that we hold in our hands. We cannot consume the Body of Christ because the priest did not receive Holy Communion. We consume the Body of Christ together with the priest. We have never made that a secret.
Furthermore, there were many complaints coming into the Vatican regarding the way we receive Holy Communion. People were writing claiming that we are in disobedience. Pope Benedict XVI then launched an investigation to determine whether those complaints were valid. After about a year or so, Pope Francis came into the picture. After taking over, Pope Francis dismissed those investigations. Now, I do not think that Pope Francis would simply dismissed all investigations into the Way without first looking at it.....otherwise that would be a grave neglect on his part. I believe that he dismissed the investigation because the reports were proven to be unfounded.
On April 208 Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez (Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) tried to correct the NCW liturgies, when he said they effectively disobeyed to the letter of l December 2005: In their liturgies I found weird things and strange issues. The Holy See has asked them to correct and obey; I also ask them to do, because the liturgy is not a property of someone, and not even Kiko Arguello's.
ReplyDeleteThe above should concern those that seek to do the will of God. Please seek the Truth. Please, everyone pray that the Holy Spirit show us the will of God; and, pray that the Holy Spirit give us the strength to do the will of God.
Dear Anonymous at 3:01 pm,
DeleteThe Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way was not approved until June 2008. So, how can you say we are in disobedience in 2005 when the Statutes were not approved yet. In fact, how can one even say that we are in disobedience in April 2008 when the Statutes was not yet approved until June 2008?
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletePlease note, it is not me that is saying the NCW disobeyed; it was April 2008 Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez (Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) who stated that the NCW "effectively disobeyed to the letter of l December 2005: In their liturgies I found weird things and strange issues. The Holy See has asked them to correct and obey; I also ask them to do, because the liturgy is not a property of someone, and not even Kiko Arguello's." Please note: "the Holy See has asked them to correct and obey." Why would this person say such a thing if it wasn't the Pope's wishes. (May His Will be Done)
ReplyDeleteRe:Diana 3:42PM
The research I present is meant to open the eyes of those who seek the truth. Disobedience can be perpetuated and progressive.
Disobedience can occur in 2005; and, disobedience can also occur in 2008. Disobedience can occur in April; and, disobedience can happen in 2008.
Dear Diana January 29, 2015 at 3:53 PM
ReplyDeleteFirstly, lend me commend you for opening this blog for civil dialogue - so that we can realize what is Truth. I don't always see the posts I send; but, then again, I'm surprised at some of them that I do send. But, thank you.
Re your statement "The Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way was approved in June 2008. Before that, I am certain that there were many discussions between Kiko and the Vatican as to how the Way should receive the Body of Christ. "
This is true. In a February 15 interview with Vatican Radio, Arinze stated that the letter (2005) is the "conclusion of the whole affair."
He stated:
"The letter was occasioned by the results of the examination, conducted by this congregation, of how the Neocatechumenal Way has celebrated the Holy Mass for many years. [...] For this examination we had a mixed commission of persons nominated by the Neocatechumenal Way and persons nominated by our congregation. The discussions brought up many of the practices that they employ during the Mass. [...} and many of these were not in accordance with the approved books. This is the background. The entire situation was examined over many sessions of the mixed commission, for a period of two years or longer. And there was also,at the bidding of the holy Father, a discussion among seven cardinals of the Roman Curia, who examined everything. So this letter is the conclusion of the whole affair."
In regards to your statement "After the passage of the Statutes, we now receive the Body of Christ standing and then we sit to contemplate on the Lord's Body that we hold in our hands. We cannot consume the Body of Christ because the priest did not receive Holy Communion. We consume the Body of Christ together with the priest."
Receiving the Body of Christ also means to receive the Body of Christ by "consuming." Therefore, the NCW should really consume Jesus, while standing or kneeling if preferred) immediately so as to protect Jesus from harm.
The fact that the priest does not consume BOTH the Body and Blood of Christ PRIOR to the community is in error with the Roman Missal/Girm and must be corrected immediately according to Redemptionis Sacramentum and the Statutes of 2008 which says the NCW must follow instructions of the liturgical books without additions or deletions.
I would like to add a personal comment re Communion being distributed to people in their places, although I know permission was granted to the NCW to do this. The Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, I realize, are very careful of Who they are handling when the Precious Blood is offered to each communicant.
However, I was the recipient of receiving the Precious Blood this way (in my place); and, as the EMHC came towards me, the level of the Precious Blood spilled over the Chalice and onto my shoe before she actually gave me the Chalice. (I was literally horrified.) I realize there is no guarantee that this can't happen in the regular way with people going up to receive, but the odds of that happening are greatly reduced. Isn't our Lord worth that extra caution?
Re: "Pope Francis dismissed those investigations. Now, I do not think that Pope Francis would simply dismissed all investigations into the Way without first looking at it.....otherwise that would be a grave neglect on his part. I believe that he dismissed the investigation because the reports were proven to be unfounded."
This I beg to differ. I believe that Pope Francis is a no-nonsence type of guy. There is more than enough information already available to him, (including that from Benedict XVI, his close friend.) Further investigation would be unnecessary , and Pope Francis would see the excess. It is no surprise that he would have stopped it. He definitely does not like excesses.
Dear Anonymous of 1:27, 2:12, and 3:53 pm,
DeleteIf Pope Francis ceased the investigation because it is no longer needed in that there was enough information, then why not use that information to either correct or excommunicate Kiko? Do you know what Pope Francis did instead? On February, 2014 Pope Francis confirmed Kiko Arguello for five more years as Consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity. Can you explain why Pope Francis would confirm Kiko's position for another five years if he feels there is enough evidence to show that Kiko is guilty of disobedience?
Dear Anonymous, you really tried hard here to make the anti-Way mantra look civil. But you still repeat the same things the jungle invented against us. I don't think anyone would be scolded in the Way for kneeling. No offense, you just have to try and kneel during the celebration. The only thing is that we are real crammed sometime and do not have enough room to kneel.
DeleteWe were taught that the consecrated bread is the body and blood of Christ. Yes, body AND blood. So when the priest eats the bread, he actually consumes the precious body AND blood. So despite your claim there is no violation of the precedence rule. That rule only says the presbyter is the first to consume the body and the blood of Christ. That is why we always wait until our presbyter take the first bite of his piece of bread before we start to consume ours. Now, you may not know that we bake true bread for consecration that you have to chew. Sorry, but chewing takes times. Do you see my point? So please, stop your accusation.
On receiving the Eucharist on the tongue, well this question is different by pure technical reason. I personally would be willing to receive it on the tongue but it is technically impossible. Just imagine, the presbyter is walking around placing the holy host into our extended hands. He cannot place it on the tongue because he has not consumed the holy host yet. So placing on the tongue at that time would be a violation of the same precedence rule you mention! I am really curious how do you think to overcome this technical problem in order to receive the holy host on the tongue. But anyway, everyone has the opportunity to go to regular mass and receive the Eucharist on the tongue there. Does it answer you questions, dear Anonymous?
"So despite your claim there is no violation of the precedence rule. That rule only says the presbyter is the first to consume the body and the blood of Christ."
DeleteNo. That rule says that the "distribution" of communion occurs "after the priests's communion"
Dear Anon at 6.06pm
DeletePlease refer to the following:
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_in_hand.htm
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-a-bishop-prohibit-receiving-communion-on-the-tongue
"The universal law of the Latin rite is that we receive Communion on the tongue. To receive in the hand is an indult or special permission that does not exist in most parts of the world. By law, it is a right of the faithful to receive on the tongue, and the faithful must not have their rights denied."
"1. The new manner of giving communion must not be imposed in a way that would exclude the traditional practice. It is a matter of particular seriousness that ***in places where the new practice is lawfully permitted every one of the faithful have the option of receiving communion on the tongue and even when other persons are receiving communion in the hand. The two ways of receiving communion can ***without question*** take place during the same liturgical service.*** There is a twofold purpose here: that none will find in the new rite anything disturbing to personal devotion toward the Eucharist; that this sacrament, the source and cause of unity by its very nature, will not become an occasion of discord between members of the faithful."
The Church is concerned about salvation of souls. The Church is concerned about the pro-choice politician, the murderer on death row, the abortionist and those involved in euthanasia, .............The Church is concerned about straightening the bent rod. In extreme and hopeless cases, excommunication can occur; but, the Popes always hope for conversion.
ReplyDeleteIn 2014 Pope Francis confirmed Kiko Arguello for five more years as Consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity. Kiko has many gifts that the Church can benefit from; but that doesn't mean he never makes mistakes or sins. I occasionally make mistakes at work; I, like Kiko, am human. I would hope I wouldn't be fired for them. I, however, do try to correct them whenever possible so I remain in good standing with my boss.
I, actually read something about that position and its appointment. I can't remember the details though. I'll try to find it. In the meantime, my above answer hopefully makes sense.
Please realize, I'm not against Kiko. None of us are perfect.
Dear Diane - I found the following, although it was not the one I was seeking:
ReplyDeleteZENIT: KIKO'S MINISTRY OF PROPAGANDA Wed. June 11 2014: [Diana, you can read the whole article online, but I'll just zoom in on the following direct quote.]
"Now let's take a look at another Zenit story of which the Kiko's have made much: the appointment of Kiko to the position of consultor to the council for the laity. Zenit begins: Neocatechumenal Way Initiator Named Consultor for Pontifical Council for the Laity: Pope Francis Confirms Kiko Argüello for 5-Year Term.
We are led to think that the pope personally called Kiko and laid hands on him. Here are the facts:
The use of the adjective "Pontifical" does not mean that the pope himself has anything directly to do with whatever entity the adjective is modifying. "Pontifical" simply denotes an entity of any sort which operates under the pope's auspices and exists to assist him.
In the case of "Pontifical Councils", they are made up of a cardinal president, a secretary, an under-secretary, members, and then consultors. The consultors are just that: consultors. They offer advice to the members who are the decision makers.
The pope does not pick or "name" the members or the consultors. He generally only names the cardinal president, who then with the two secretaries, chooses the members and consultors, and often through the assistance and recommendation of other clergy. The pope ultimately confirms the selection as a formality.
The cardinal president for the Pontifical Council of the Laity is Cardinal Stanislaw Ryłko, a Neo sympathizer from way back, so we shouldn't be surprised that he found a way to insert Kiko."
Hopefully this helps put things in perspective; although, I would like to believe Kiko can still do much good.
In fact, "insert" may be what actually happened. An Australian blog, which tracks these types of appointments noted that Kiko was not on the original list:
Apparently Rylko and Kiko (they have worked side deals before) did a work around and got Kiko on to the list. But given the Zenit headline, you would think that the pope begged Kiko to be his personal consultant.
Dear Anonymous at 3:30 pm,
DeleteFirst of all, Zenit: Kiko's Ministry of Propaganda did NOT come from Zenit. It came from Tim Rohr's blog.
Also, why are you changing the subject? You accuse Kiko Arguello of disobedience. Now, you are changing the subject by defining his position as a Consulter of the Pontifical Council of the Laity? The point I made was that the allegations against the Way were unfounded, which is why Pope Francis ceased all investigations in the Way. If he truly believed that there was evidence to show that Kiko was disobedient, he would not even confirm Kiko's position for another five years regardless of how you define that position.
Of course its obvious that the appointment of Kiko as a consultant to the Pontifical Council for the Laity is not unreasonable. After all there are supposedly a million or so souls under his dominion. There are quite a number of consultors, as I understand it, each representing some movement or segment of the laity. His appointment, is not intended to be some endorsement of everything he says and does. How ridiculous. It is rather a reflection of the care the Church has for the souls of those that follow Kiko.
ReplyDeleteIf the Church didn't appoint Kiko, or one of the other initiators, it would be that much further away from his followers. Lets face it - Carmen is in no condition to be appointed and it would be odd if a member of the clergy was appointed.
Kiko is a megalomaniac who delights in the worship of his followers. Its all about him and always has been. Which is why you sing his songs, and hang his paintings and buy his stuff, and why he speaks for three hours in your large gatherings, and why he stands there and plays his songs in front of you all, and why he gives the pope a lesson, and why he has a "holy card", and why you kneel before him when you "stand up", even though you won't even kneel for our Blessed Lord and Savior.
I am against Kiko and everything he stands for. The NCW ought to be rubbed out entirely - or reformed completely. I believe it will happen, due in no small part to what is happening on Guam, and due also to this blog which has been, and continues to be, logged, compiled and sent to the Vatican.
Dear Anonymous at 4:13 pm,
DeleteYou stated: "I am against Kiko and everything he stands for. The NCW ought to be rubbed out entirely - or reformed completely. I believe it will happen, due in no small part to what is happening on Guam, and due also to this blog which has been, and continues to be, logged, compiled and sent to the Vatican."
The Holy Bible says that if it does not come from God, it will fall. If it comes from God, it will continue to increase because what comes from God will not fall. The Holy Bible also says that if anyone goes against what comes from God, he/she will also be fighting against God.
The Neocatechumenal Way has already been in existence for over 50 years. There are currently 102 Redemptoris Mater Seminaries all over the world, and the Way has approximately 1 million people. You are fighting against God.
Re: Diana January 10:45AM and 1154 PM and 1211 AM
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
I wish you peace, But, please note: It wasn't me who brought up Kiko's appointment as Consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity. And since you were the one to bring it up, I felt it was very important to show NCW members the truth in that appointment, irregardless from where that particular report came from. Do you not agree that the truth is important, and, that each NCW member should be able to receive that truth?
Re: The Neocatechumenal Way has already been in existence for over 50 years. There are currently 102 Redemptoris Mater Seminaries all over the world, and the Way has approximately 1 million people. You are fighting against God."
I am neither fighting against God or Kiko and his Way, I am fighting against Satan.
Do you not realize that although the Way has been in existence for over 50 years, Kiko's teachings were not an open book until the Pope asked for them in writing and only received them in the 2000's? It was only then that Rome could dissect and correct the NCW's catechesis and do a major over-haul of their Mass. The proposed corrections to the NCW Liturgies are still partly ignored.
Let us pray that God's will may be done.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 3:17 am,
DeleteIf you really wanted the truth about the Consulter of Pontifical Council of the Laity, you would have gone to the Vatican website. Instead, you went to Tim Rohr's blog. Tell me, why did you go to the jungle instead of the Vatican website????? Don't you want to know the truth??? According to the Vatican website:
"Whereas the members of the Congregations are mainly cardinals and bishops – with the addition, in certain cases, of “some clerics and other Christian faithful”(21) – the majority of the members and consultors of the Pontifical Council are lay people, appointed – together with certain bishops – by tre Holy Father for a period of five years."
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/laity_en/presentazione/storia_en.htm
So, you see, Anonymous, the VATICAN website says that the members and consulters of the Pontifical Council of the Laity were appointed by the Holy Father for a period of five years. And instead of going to the Vatican website to find out this truth, you look at the adjective "Pontifical."???
Therefore, as I pointed out. Pope Francis ceased all investigations of the Way because those allegations of liturgical abuses were unfounded. And if Pope Francis has all the evidence he needed to show that Kiko Arguello is disobedient (as you claim), then why confirm his position as consulter of the Pontifical Council of the Laity for another five years? Who in their right mind would appoint a disobedient person especially when the purpose of the Pontifical Council of the Laity is to render obedience and service to the Pope?
Dear Diana, (757 PM)
ReplyDeleteWow, this just proves how easy it is for "anyone" to be the recipient of "misinformation."
Thank you for correcting me in regards to my post of 317 AM. You are correct, the Vatican says "Whereas the members of the Congregations are mainly cardinals and bishops – with the addition, in certain cases, of “some clerics and other Christian faithful”(21) – the majority of the members and consultors of the Pontifical Council are lay people, appointed – together with certain bishops – by the Holy Father for a period of five years."
On January 30 330 PM, when I stated: "I found the following, although, the article was not the one as was seeking" I wished I had done a better search. I sincerely apologize.
However,this appointment makes me appreciate part of Annoymous Jan 30 413PM when he/she says "If the Church didn't appoint Kiko, or one of the other initiators, it would be that much further away from his followers" In no way does his appointment mean that the Pope agrees with all that Kiko promotes.
Which is easier? To convince one wrong person "who can easily" correct one million, or to convince one million people to correct one peson? The Pope is very smart. I just love him!
Let us continue on our journey for truth.