We will be celebrating the 50th anniversary of the NCW. All communities worldwide are invited to Rome to have an audience with Pope Francis. An estimated number of 300,000-400,000 brothers and sisters are expected to participate in this celebration, which will take place sometime in May 2018. Many of the brothers we spoke with are interested in going to Rome to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Way. The Way was born on December 8th, and inspired by the Blessed Virgin Mary through Kiko Arguello. The month of May was chosen because it is also the month of our Blessed Mother.
Nine Redemptoris Mater Seminaries are being opened. This indicates that many in the NCW are being called to the priesthood.
Another good news is that God has built new communities in the Pacific. The NCW catechists in Guam held catechesis in Palau at the invitation of the Bishop of Palau. The first community in Palau was born, and they were able to join us in this year's Beginning of the Year Convivience. There were 13 brothers in the first community of Palau. A new community was also born in Saipan, which consisted of 30 brothers.
Listening to the Kerygma and the Magisterium of the Church was beautiful. It explained that the liturgy practiced by the NCW was never invented by Kiko Arguello or Carmen Hernandez. The liturgy came from the Second Vatican Council. Pope Paul VI was the first to recognize that the Neocatechumenal Way was the fruit of the Second Vatican Council. The liturgies that the Way practices came from the Second Vatican Council.
Before Archbishop Byrnes came to Guam as the Coadjutor Archbishop, the NCW would receive the Body of Christ together with the priest. Today, the document was produced showing that the liturgy practiced in the Way was approved. According to the document SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM (the bold is mine):
47. At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to His beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, [1] a paschal banquet in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us. [2]
48. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ's faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators. On the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action, conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God's word, and be nourished at the table of the Lord's Body. They should give thanks to God. Offering the immaculate victim, not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, they should learn to offer themselves.This document from the Second Vatican Council stated that "we can receive the "immaculate victim" (Body of Christ) not only through the hands of the priest, but also TOGETHER with him. What I placed in red showed that the the document was discussed in the context of the Eucharist.....there is no mistake about that. Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II celebrated the Eucharist exactly the same way as the NCW had always celebrated....receiving the Body of Christ together with the priests.
The only change that was made in 2008 regarding the way we do the Eucharist was to consume the Body of Christ standing like the rest of the universal Church. That was the issue addressed by the Holy See. The issue was not the fact that we receive the Body of Christ together with the priest because that was already addressed and accepted by Second Vatican Council. However, since Archbishop Byrnes decided to change the instructions on how we receive the Eucharist, we followed his instruction simply because he is the Coadjutor Archbishop.
The Magisterium was about two hours long, and the rest of the information will be transmitted to the brothers. Another important thing we learned in the retreat was that receiving communion by hand came from St. John Chrysostom, who lived in the third century. According to EWTN:
Repeating instructions given by St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) to newly baptized catechumens, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship stated that the faithful should extend both hands making with "the left hand a throne for the right hand, which receives the King." The person then steps to the side, faces the altar, and consumes the sacred Host.
When it came time for the calling, 19 families stood up for the mission, some of them were Chamorro families. Two men stood up for the priesthood and two women stood up to be assigned to a monastery. Five men and eight women stood up to be itinerant.
In his press conference for world mission sunday cardinal Filoni spoke of the importance of "Mission" in the church. All men/women are called to participate in missionary vocation.
ReplyDeleteI was there at the convivience. It was very beautiful. The document Sacrosanctum Concilium was about the Eucharist. It says that the Eucharist was the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeletePope Paul VI went back to the time of the primitive church and what was done in the primitive church was placed in Vatican II. The document also said:
"Other parts which suffered loss through accidents of history are to be restored to the vigor they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary."
In the primitive Church, everyone ate the Body of Christ at the same time. That is what the Way follows since like the primitive church, they also celebrated in small communities.
Another thing that was brought up in the retreat was that the document also said the bread must be baked. That us what the Way does.
Dear Anonymous at 6:48 pm,
DeleteI am glad that the catechist were able to bring up the primitive church. It puts everything in perspective. The very first Eucharist Christ instituted was at the Passover. Passover means passing over death. To pass over death means the resurrection. This is why the document stated that the Eucharist is a memorial of his death and resurrection.
The document emphasised that the laity was to fully and actively participate in the liturgy of the Word and Eucharist. The primitive Church also received the Body of Christ together with the priests. During the primitive Church, concelebration had a different meaning than it does today. According to the Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The verb to "concelebrate in the Early Church had a somewhat different meaning from the present, more technical understanding. In Christian antiquity, all Christians "concelebrated according to their role or liturgical role in the Church.....In the Middle Ages, this term came to mean exclusively the celebration by bishops and priests together."
Anonymous 6:48..It is important to take the context of the early church seriously. Baked bread was used because the number was still manageable.Project that to this day.
DeleteWhere do the catechist receive education to chatecize?
DeleteSeriously, you are still on about this "concelebration"?
DeleteYour quote that "to concelebrate in the Early Church had a somewhat different meaning from the present", should be self explanatory.
Its states that activities other than the sacrifice performed by the priests, were acts of "celebration". So, one would expect that a lector "concelebrates" by his action of announcing the scriptures; or a cantor "concelebrates" according to his ministry.
That is,"In Christian antiquity, all Christians "concelebrated according to their role or liturgical role in the Church"
The above quote is certainly not meaning to give support for the notion that priest and people should consume communion at the same time!
And yet this narrative is the best that your best apologists can come up with to justify the idea.
I don't know. If you can't see what is meant by your own quote, there isn't a lot of point in dialogue
Dear Anonymous at 3:26 pm,
DeleteYes seriously. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI celebrated the Eucharist with the NCW, and they did not have a problem with it. In fact, it was Pope Benedict XVI who started the Way in Germany. The NCW had always been open in celebrating the Eucharist. Next year, we will be celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Way with Pope Francis. After 50 years of celebrating the Eucharist openly, you would think that the Pope would ban the Eucharist, but that did not happen at all.
The NCW is the fruit of the Second Vatican Council, which stated:
III THE REFORM OF THE SACRED LITURGY
21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. for the liturgy is made up of unchangeable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change.
DECREES
50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as well as the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved. For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance. Parts which with the passage of time came to be duplicated, or were added with little advantage, are to be omitted. Other parts which suffered loss through accidents of history are to be restored to the vigor they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.
I don't know why I bother, but nothing that you offered in your comments shows anything like support for your supposed "concelebration". Fortunately for us, what the Church wants us to do in the liturgy of the Mass is carefully described and promulgated. Nowhere in these instructions is there a hint of what you describe and what the NCW do
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:50 pm,
DeleteIf two popes who celebrated the Eucharist the way we do cannot open your eyes as evidence that there is nothing wrong with our Eucharistic celebration, the. You are blind. 50 years have gone by with the NCW celebrating the Mass openly, and nothing was done to disciplined the Way, and still you cannot see. Within those 50 years, Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez received an honorary award, Kiko was confirmed as Consultor for another 5years by Pope Francis, and on March 6th 2016, Pope Francis gave his strongest support for the Way...........yeah.......some discipline. :-)
"...but also together with him..." does that necessarily mean that the laity hold in their hands the Body of Christ at the time of "Behold the Lamb..." and consume together with the Priest? This is not clearly defined in the document. The laity at this part of the Mass learn to make a spiritual offering, joining the offering of the priest; it's part of our role as being baptized and having the roles of priest (members of the Mystical Body of Christ; spiritual offerings), prophet (evangelization) and king (adopted children of God). There are many Vatican docs that contain "open interpretations" deliberately. The late Fr. Nicholas Gruner would be an expert on that. Secondly, receiving Communion by hand is merely an indult granted by the Church.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:20 pm,
DeleteAt the retreat, we were told that there are some things that cannot be changed in the Eucharist such as the words Jesus spoke, "This is my body..."
However, we also know that certain things in the Eucharist have changed over time. The Church has different kinds of liturgies. The NCW and many movements are the fruits of Vatican II, which brought some changes to the Church. The reason for these changes over time was to meet the challenges of the modern world. In other words, what used to work hundreds of years ago does not work today. There was no internet hundreds of years ago and the attitudes of man has changed.
For example, what was once considered sacred and meaningful is no more.
For example, religious art was brought up. The icons in the Church was not just beautiful. The icon taught people the gospel. The colors, halis, and objects in the icon has meaning. Behind every icon is a gospel teaching. For example, the halo painted around certain people who are holy saints means holiness. They teach people that Christ, Mary, and the prophets were holy. That is what the halo represents.
However, many religious artwork done by famous painters in the Renaissance era did not paint halos on these holy people. They only painted a beautiful picture that looks realistic. An icon, on the other hand, is different. The colors, items, and symbols teach the Word of God. The painters of icons painted with the Gospel teaching in mind while Renaissance painters painted only a pleasing picture that looks realistic.
So Chuck White took Kiko’s words out of context.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:46 pm,
DeleteYes, as usual, he deliberately took it out of context to discredit Kiko Arguello and the Way. Mr. White was not at the retreat to hear Kiko speak. But that first convivience from Kiko was transmitted down to the Beginning of the Year Convivience. Soon, the NCW will transmit it to their individual communities.
Although I am not against religious art, there is a difference between an icon and religious art. That is what Kiko is saying. Unlike the Eastern-rite Church, the Western Church appeals more to religious art rather than icons since the Renaissance era. Take for example, Leonardo Da Vinci’s beautiful painting of the Last Supper. Most Catholics have a replica of that painting in their dining room, but that is not an icon. If you look closely at the painting of Da Vinci’s Last Supper, none of the Apostles have a halo. Even Christ, who is God, does not have a halo. You also do not see the Apostle John leaning against Jesus; therefore, Da Vinci painted only a beautiful picture without having the biblical scripture in mind. He painted a “historical Jesus.” An icon artist does not paint a “historical Jesus”. He paints Jesus as God.
Kiko is trying to bring the icons back into the Church. The icons point either to Heaven or the holy saint represented in the icon. If you look at an icon of any of the Last Supper, it tells a story of man’s salvation on it. For example, one Last Supper icon has a garden in the background. Why the garden in the background? It was in the Garden of Eden where man fell into sin. After having the last supper or Passover with His Apostles, Christ entered the Garden of Gethsamane. It was Christ who brought redemption to fallen man. Kiko said that icons proclaim a word of salvation. It proclaimed the Kerygma.
Im sorry but i need to say that Chuck W. Is self proclaimed expert on the ecclesiastical art, without degree in liturgy(ecclesiastical art). Start listening to
Deletethe people with “authority on the subject” and not some “blogs”. Pick up a good book On the subject history of liturgical art, sacred spaces etc. for example: Benedict XVI and Beauty in Sacred Art and Architecture by D. Vincent Twomey SVD (Editor), Janet E. Rutherford (Editor).
Poor Chuck White:
DeleteHe cloaks his reasons to defy the church and the Way through his so-called logical reasons when deep down it is very clear that through his illogical conclusions, which lack any depth of understanding and truth, he reveals his hatred for the Way and the need for his personal conversion.
He is like those scribes and pharisees who were blind to the Savior and who were so filled with anger, hatred and jealousy against Jesus Christ, that they sought to KILL the Son of God himself. A sad testimony to a man, Chuck, whose intellect and mind has been corrupted, soured and blinded by the evil spirits of Rohr and gang.
When will Chuck grow up?
Dear anon, Chuck White is critical of the NCW at his blog The Thoughtful
DeleteCatholic (http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=766) because he is apparently a purist of Catholic doctrine. A purist is a person compulsively following one single understanding of an issue. He assumes that his is the only possible universal understanding, so it must be perfect and the only source of "purity". Therefore he is pushing through this one single view beyond measure. But he is mistaken. Everything has different sides that we need to be aware of in order to grasp the complexity of truthfulness.
Chuck's approach is an intellectual approach characterizing many educated Catholics, rather than hatred or jealousy. We should never mistake criticism as hatred or factual analysis as jealousy. More importantly, we should never hate others who criticize us.
I find The Thoughtful Catholic an interesting source of material describing many aspects of the NCW communities and the teaching promulgated at our communities. We should make distinction between facts or factual statements, and personal opinion. On the one hand, many things I read in this blog are factual statements with references. I have no problem with that. On the other hand, it is a mistake that Chuck explains/ interprets all these things from one single purist point of view that is his own. This is the point when Chuck's criticism becomes one-sided, reflecting his own personal opinion, rather than objective conclusions.
We in the communities know that nothing can be judged based on one single view, opinion or document. We need to see all relevant views, opinion and documents in order to shed light to the truth. Our truth is Jesus Christ as He is exposing himself in our communities. That is the reason I have invited Chuck several times to participate in some NCW celebrations before making and publishing his judgments.
As about challenging The Thoughtful Catholic, I believe we can best respond to his criticism by thorough critical rebuttal or counter-criticism. We should always be factual without engaging into a warship of personal views. The best way is to keep our calm and respond without making counter-accusations. After all, we are all sinners on both sides of the barricade.
Dear Zoltan, thank you for your reply. It was very measured and gracious. I don't necessarily agree with your characterization of Chuck White as a "purist" as I think that does the same thing as you criticize in your comments - namely, restricts the understanding of the subject (in this case, Chuck) to a single, onesided, labelled point of view. I think Chuck, like most people, is far more complex than being simply "purist".
DeleteBut your other comments are noble and true.
Perhaps you could give an example of "responding to his criticism by thorough critical rebuttal or counter-criticism"?
That helm should be taken up by those who have access to the relevant information.
DeleteWho would that be then?
DeleteDiana, how can a woman be assigned to a Monastery? I don’t understand. Does the Way have its own Monastery as it does for seminarians assigned the RMS internationally? Thanks for your reply.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:08 pm,
DeleteThe Way does not have a monastery or a Seminary. RMS does not belong to the Way. I have always said that RMS belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana. Females in Guam who want to become nuns can enter the Carmelite Monastery in New Jersey.
Why can’t females go to another monastery not in New Jersey? I looked online. There are many US monasteries. In PI too.
DeleteIs this monastery in New Jersey a NCW monastery? Do the sisters walk? This would be so good.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:09 pm,
DeleteI just said that the NCW does not have a monastery. What part in that sentence did you not understand?
At Anonymous 11:45 am,
That is up to the Archbishop.
Every woman who feels a vocation looks for a monastery of her choosing. Many have become missionaries of charity, other Benedictine, other poor Claires, other carmelites. I don't see the point of your question. My friend became a brigittine. And my cousin is trappistine. Both discovered their vocation while walking in a community.
DeleteMany years ago a sister from a Guam community of the Neocatechumenal way entered the Sister of Mercy convent here on Guam.
DeleteDear Non 11:08:
DeleteThey are not assigned, but these women have expressed a desire to enter a cloistered monastery.
Instead of condemning them, you should instead R-E-J-O-I-C-E that through the WAY vocations are flourishing! This WAY which Byrnes and his gang want to shut down.
What a miracle!
Don't you SEE it?
NO?
Perhaps you would rather say?: "Crucify HIM!!!" Are you part of that crowd?
Who selects the seminarians to attend the RMS on Guam. Does the Archdiocese of Agana take part of any of the processes? Or does the seminarians shows up at RMS Guam, get an education and then go on mission? All at the expense of the Archdiocese? Oh, btw how much was collected at the convivience and what percentage is paid to the Archdiocese?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.postguam.com/news/local/seminary-prepares-to-close-doors-at-end-of-year/article_6e4a37f4-b53b-11e7-94d2-f3d873ed0134.html
ReplyDelete@anon 2:16am.... did you even get anything from Sunday's gospel??
ReplyDeleteOr are you concerned about the money?
Just asking....
Not concern about the money at all, I am concern whether the NCW help maintain the Archdiocese in any financial way since you all seem to use some parishes for your NCW activities.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:29 pm,
DeleteOf course we do. The NCW help build up their parish. Ask the finance officer of the parish, and he/she can list how the NCW help build up their parish.
Which parish are you talking about Diana. I hope it is not San Vicente/ San Roke in Barrigada. Speaking about that parish, didn't they hold different Fund Raising events to built a religious center on the side of the church?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:52 pm,
DeleteThe fact that a religious center for Barrigada Church was built is an upgrade.
Where is the religious center in Barrigada? I still see the parking lot by the basement.
DeleteMy, my. my ANON 12:06:
DeleteRather furious aren't we?
Instead of ranting hatred, why don't you see with your eyes, unless you're blind, the many miracles that comes from the communities.
Oh! I see, you don't, or, perhaps you won't?
It's OK, these future vocations from the Way will one day serve you when you are old and and helpless and abandoned by your family. They will serve the church with love and hopefully you will convert to the Love of the Lord.
Archdiocese is ceazar now? Give to ceazar what is ceazar's......
ReplyDeletehttp://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=44328
ReplyDeleteIn 2011 Kiko spoke to Capuchins in Poland in a very unfavorable way about introducing Mary to potential members for the way. (Wait over ten years before introducing her!)
Mary never scares anyone away from her son Jesus. She didn't scare any of the astecs in guadelupe (9 million clamoured for baptism) and she didn't scare any one away from Jesus when she appeared to 70,000 at Fatima. (Atheists and skeptics converted, and those in sin repented.)
And regarding icons - yes they are beautiful, but so is religious art. Just because many paintings don't have halo's around the heads doesn't mean icons are better. If you claim that, you might as well say that every crucifix that doesn't have a halo around His Precious Head is not of any value. How about the Pieta - both Jesus and Mary don't have halos.
Dear Anonymous at 8:42 am,
DeletePlease read what I wrote in my comments and do not put words in my mouth. I never said that icons were better. I said they are DIFFERENT from religious art.
We're you there in 2011 to hear Kiko speak? Or did you hear it from someone who took his speech out of context the way Chuck White did?
"We're you there in 2011 to hear Kiko speak"
DeleteIts on youtube.
Dear Anonymous at 11:09 am,
DeleteNo. The fair and just thing to do is for you to listen to the entire 13 minute video clip and allow you to form your own conclusion.
During sunday Angelus Pope Francis invited everyone to live the "joy of missionary witness to the Gospel" Get out of parish confines witness to the Gospel.Discover new ways to evangelize build community.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDelete944am
You state "We're (were) you there in 2011 to hear Kiko speak?'
The link at the top of anon. 842 am - (http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=44328) gives a utube audio confirmation of what Kiko DID SAY TO THE Capuchins. (So yes, in a sense, I was as present to Kiko's speech as every one of those Capuchins - I heard the same words via utube) You can check the translation - Sound very accurate to me.
In regards to your saying "I said they are DIFFERENT from religious art."
Yes you did say that, but you also state " EVEN Christ, who IS God, does not have a halo. You also do not see the Apostle John leaning against Jesus; THEREFORE, Da Vinci painted ONLY a beautiful picture WITHOUT having the BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE IN MIND. He painted a “historical Jesus.” An icon artist DOES NOT paint a “historical Jesus”. HE paints Jesus as God."
Diana, how can one say that Da Vinci and others did not paint Jesus as God but only a beautiful picture? That statement is truly unbelievable!
As for those who paint icons, including Kiko, they too ALL paint a historical Jesus. HISTORY IS IN FACT "HIS STORY." If they didn't paint His Story, they simply would not have a painting of Jesus, would they?
And, also re your quote above, "...He painted a “historical Jesus.” An icon artist does not paint a “historical Jesus”. He paints Jesus as God."
Your explanation is not right - that would indeed make even artists making crucifixes, or the Pieta, etc. (without halos) not sculpting with a biblical scripture in mind. How can that even be possible? Again history is His Story.
Dear Anonymous at 3:28 on,
DeleteThe fact that the translation is coming from Chuck White whose agenda is to discredit Kiko and Way is not credible.
Furthermore, an icon is not a statue. It is an image or a painting. My explanation on Da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper is correct. As a matter of fact, look closely at that painting again. This time...look at the table. The bread (which is supposed to be the Body of Christ) is NOT on the plate!!!! It is sitting on the table. An icon would have the Body of Christ on a plate because the Icon artist paints according to the traditional teachings of the Church.
Dear Diana, can you please provide a different translation?
DeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe your "48. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ's faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators. On the contrary, through a GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF THE RITES AND PRAYERS they should take part in the sacred action,conscious of what they are doing WITH DEVOTION AND FULL COLLABORATION."
The Rites were ignored by those in the NCW and prayers in the Mass were eliminated. No pope has issued the NCW the approval of the alterations to the NCW Mass, either by recognitio, dubia, indult,statutes, etc.. In January 2012 when the NCW met with the Pope positively sure they were (finally) going to get the permission for these additions and deletions, they were bewildered that they DID NOT.
Doesn't the NCW find it strange that they would be led to Rome for the "definitely" expected permission in 2012, when they had already been saying that the permission was granted in the 2008 approved Statutes?
Who is preventing the truth to be accepted? Why this deception of the NCW members? The "Way" the NCW celebrates their Mass has become a god. This statement is given in love, with hope for a "new" catechumenal way. Peace.
Dear Anonymous at 4:30 pm,
DeleteDid you know that in 2012 Pope Benedict XVI placed an investigation in the Way due to such complaints and to determine whether those allegations of liturgical abuse were true?????
And did you know that Pope Francis ceased all the investigations into the Way because the allegations were unfounded?????
So much for your theory.
9. The sacred liturgy does not exhaust the entire activity of the Church. Before men can come to the liturgy they must be called to faith and to conversion: "How then are they to call upon him in whom they have not yet believed? But how are they to believe him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear if no one preaches? And how are men to preach unless they be sent?" (Rom. 10) - Sacrosanctum concilium
ReplyDeleteGod Bless the NCW for living the true spirit of Vat II.
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
I was at convivence too, can't wait for the 50th Anniversary next year.
Your " It explained that the liturgy practiced by the NCW was never invented by Kiko Arguello or Carmen Hernandez. The liturgy came from the Second Vatican Council. Pope Paul VI was the first to recognize that the Neocatechumenal Way was the fruit of the Second Vatican Council. The liturgies that the Way practices came from the Second Vatican Council."
ReplyDeleteWRONG- the NCW Liturgy arose from a MISINTERPRETATION of Vatican II. The Liturgy may have been approved by some in the Vatican who ALSO misinterpreted what Vatican II was saying, BUT the NCW Liturgy was NEVER APPROVED BY THE POPE. How could he? The NCW Mass was not considered a Sacrifice - Prayers (such as Lamb of God) were removed, altar was ignored - table used to celebrate only a banquet, crucifix was removed, transubstantiation was denied, etc...definitely not fruits of the Spirit or a Mass that Our Lady would ever promote.
You say Pope Francis ceased all the investigations into the Way because the allegations were unfounded. "Where" does the Pope say the allegations against the Way are unfounded? The only people that are saying the allegations are unfounded are those associated with the NCW! The Pope praises certain aspects of the NCW such as the members' love of scripture, zeal for missions, vocations, families open to life, etc. BUT not the NCW Mass with all the deletions and additions.
Pope Francis has always been a Pope of no excesses. Why would he continue to investigate when sufficient evidence exists? Then again, after gently trying to reign the NCW in, he saw the need to assign Archbishop Byrnes to Guam to investigate the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 2:18 am,
DeleteInvestigations were launched against the Way due to those kinds of complaints you listed. Pope Francis is not going to cease those investigations if the results are true. The fact that he ceased the investigations only means one thing.......the allegations are false. If the allegations were true Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez would not be awarded with honorary degrees and the Pope would not confirm Kiko’s position as consultor for another five years.
You will find those allegations only on anti-Neo websites that are frozen time in 2006. Those websites do not have anything new to say after 2006.
Hardened hearts can jeopardize one's salvation. Antiquarianism, the notion that a practice or belief as discovered in "the primitive church" (usually the first 3 centuries), is truer or more authentic than what has developed since, has been condemned by the Church as a heresy.
ReplyDeleteAntiquarianisam was first condemned by Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei (Aug 28, 1794).
In 1947, Pius XII also condemned antiquarianism: "This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise." - Mediator Dei, 64.
Pius XII says at the beginning at paragraph 62:;;;
"..it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite SOME instances, one would be STRAYING FROM THE STRAIGHT PATH WERE HE TO WISH THE ALTAR RESTORED TO ITS PRIMITIVE TABLEFORM,were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches, were he to ORDER THE CRUCIFIX SO DESIGNED THAT THE DIVINE REDEEMER'S BODY SHOWS NO TRACE OF HIS CRUEL SUFFERINGS;...
63: Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, BECAUSE IT PLEASES HIM TO HARK BACK TO THE OLD FORMULA. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.
64:This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise. It likewise attempts to reinstate a series of errors which were responsible for the calling of that meeting as well as for those resulting from it, WITH GRIEVOUS HARM TO SOULS, and which the Church, the ever watchful guardian of the "deposit of faith" committed to her charge by her divine founder, had every right and reason to CONDEMN. [53]FOR PERVERSE DESIGNS AND VENTURES OF THIS SORT TEND TO PARALYZE AND WEAKEN THAT PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION BY WHICH THE SACRED LITURGY DIRECTS THE SONS OF ADOPTION TO THEIR HEAVENLY FATHER OF THEIR SOULS' SALVATION.
Dear Anonymous at 2:21 am,
DeleteThe Second Vatican Council stated:
III THE REFORM OF THE SACRED LITURGY
21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. for the liturgy is made up of unchangeable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change.
DECREES
50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as well as the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved. For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance. Parts which with the passage of time came to be duplicated, or were added with little advantage, are to be omitted. Other parts which suffered loss through accidents of history are to be restored to the vigor they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.
Dear Anon 2:21 am:
DeletePlease get your facts straight ad don't quote about Antiquarianism unless you get the whole picture as to why the document was promulgated.
Pius XII published the document Ad Apostolorum Principis because several Chinese (here we go again!) bishops used it to justify their deviation from the very FORM (for validity) of the Sacrament of Holy Orders (ordination). These Chinese 'bishops' allowed themselves to be elected by the laity and were ordained bishops without the Apostolic Mandate.
Today, THIS is what exactly the so-called 'traditionalists' bishop do! They ordain bishops with the legally required apostolic mandate and they justify themselves by saying t was done several hundred years ago! They go against the long standing pre-vatican liturgical and disciplinary laws of the Church! These are the very actions Pius XII condemned in Mediator Dei (See no. 63) long before Vatican II.
So these guys in the latin mass group have been known to deviate from the liturgical form and go against the canonical and liturgical laws requiring the apostolic mandate for the ordination of bishops all this 'contra legem', in direct opposition to the laws of the church.
But ... I thought these guys were 'traditionalists' and therefore should heed the law? Something is not right here. I guess I am FOOL for believing that Chuck, Rohr, Forbes, Andre & Kidd are really fervently obedient to Holy Mother Church? All their bells, smells, incense and mystic movements amount to what?
Dear Anon at 5.50pm. These are extraordinary claims. I hope you can justify them, as they are about as severe as you can get.
ReplyDeleteWho are you talking about? Exactly, who?
I can only think of lefebvre and the SSPX, but surely you don't mean to imply that your so-called "traditionalists" are actually secretly SSPX adherents? Or do you?
Please explain
ReplyDeleteDear Diana re yours of
Oct 23 ll20 where you state:
"
The fact that the translation is coming from Chuck White whose agenda is to discredit Kiko and Way is not credible."
The fact is utube has the actual audio of Kiko making these statesments. The words of the audio were printed and anyone can translate them into English.
If you think that Chuck White's version is inaccurate, please print your version of the translation for all to see and compare. Thank you. Otherwise the translation Chuck presents stands as accurate.
Dear Anonymous at 11:05 pm,
DeleteSee the weblink below of the meeting with Kiko Arguello and the Capuchins in 2011. It has the video of the entire meeting and Kiko's speech. What Chuck White gave you was taken out of context as usual. Did you ever wonder why Mr. White never showed the entire 13 minute video and only showed you a 1 minute clip?
The weblink belong has the 13 minute video of that meeting. Also in that weblink are photos of the Capuchins and Kiko Arguello. From the looks in the video and the photos, it appears that the Capuchins did not find anything wrong with Kiko's speech. In fact, the Capuchins were nodding their heads and clapping after hearing Kiko's speech. Why? Because they were there and heard the entire speech.
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-capuchins-and-neocatechumenal-way.html
Dear Diana, I watched the entire video. There is nothing in that which alleviates the problem of what Kiko was saying about the Rosary etc.
DeletePlease provide your translation, pointing out how Chuck White was wrong with his, or how the context alters the spoken words.
Thanks.
Dear Anonymous at 11:14 am,
DeleteDid you know that many Protestants or even atheists who are well-versed with the Holy Bible have led many Catholics away from the Church just by using the biblical verse Matthew 6:7?
Matthew 6:7 “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
An ignorant Catholic may be misled into believing that the Rosary is a prayer of vain repetition. Kiko is saying that one should first understand the devotion and why he/she prays it. How many Catholics do you know went away from the Catholic Church because they were convinced that the Rosary were vain repetitions mentioned in Matthew 6:7? Kiko said:
"You know when we give the Rosary in the Way? After twelve years we give the Rosary. If we give it before that, they run away."
The fact that Chuck White deliberately misinterpreted what Kiko said about religious art should have already been a clue that Mr. White does nothing but take everything out of context so he can deliberately misconstrue Kiko's words to discredit him and the Way.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe your comments on Mary and the Rosary
An informed Catholic would easily point out the apologetics that explain our beliefs in Mary and the Rosary.
I once talked to a person who left the Catholic Church, and when I talked to him explaining the many things Catholics do that don't seem right to non-Catholics using apologetics, he said to me "I would have never left the Catholic Church had I heard this 10 years ago!"
So if you give these members of the Way legitimate explainations, there should be no fear of them leaving.
Likewise, many leave or do not enter the Catholic Churchc because they do not believe in transubstantiation - yet we do not ignore this important part of our faith. So why would we dishonour our Heavenly Mother (another important part of our faith) by not introducing her to those we meet. "HONOUR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER" We honour our earthly mothers. So is it not important that we honour Mary our Heavenly Mother?
Rev.12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the REST OF HER OFFSPRING, ON THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND BEAR TESTIMONY TO JESUS.
We who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus ARE HER OFFSPRING, WE ARE HER CHILDREN, SHE IS OUR HEAVENLY MOTHER. HONOUR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.
Refer back to Anon.October 23, 2017 at 8:42 AM
Peace.
Dear Anonymous at 12:03 am,
DeleteWhy am I going to refer back to Anonymous 8:42 am? I already gave you a reason why people easily run away from the Church once they were convinced that the Church was going against Jesus' words in Mattew 6:7. Even you admit that you had to use apologetics to a Catholic who left the Church. Many Catholics are ignorant of their faith. This is why Kiki said to explain the devotion to them before giving them the rosary.
Diana, I am not sure if the reason many Catholics leave the church is Matt 6:7. Do people truly read the Bible at all, before they leave their Catholic faith? They might not be so prone to take the time for that.
DeleteOn Guam, people pray the Rosary for the deceased even if they don't regularly attend the parish mass. Ever since Pope St. John-Paul 2 introduced the Luminous Mysteries, the Rosary has became an even more beautiful prayer than it was before. When people pray the Rosary and contemplate its mysteries, they know it is so much more than "vain repetition"! It is like experiencing the whole salvation history through the eye of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Anyone can understand that! Praying the Rosary is also allowing the Holy Spirit's work on us through our Mother Mary.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteMany Protestants have an issue with Mary. Many of them accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary instead of God.
Because many Catholics do not read the Bible and are ignorant of their faith, they can easily be convinced that saying the Rosary is repetitious prayer. Many Catholics joined other Christian denominations because they were convinced that Catholics should pray only to God. Yes, Catholics pray the Rosary, but not all Catholics contemplate on the mysteries. Have you ever been to a rosary where the person says it so fast? For some, the rosary is only being recited through the mouth. There is no contemplation. I have been in a rosary where it is prayed with pauses and it took 3o minutes to finish. Others finish it in 15-20 minutes.
Dear Diana, Protestants do not truly grasp the Catholic faith. They are irrelevant in relation to the Virgin Mary, the mother of our Savior.
DeleteAs for Catholics, perhaps, the way the Rosary is prayed should change to allow at least 30 minutes everywhere. During prayer, a booklet assisting how to pray and contemplate the Rosary should be kept in the hand by everyone. While our mouth keeps repeating the prayer, our mind should contemplate on the mysteries. It is some kind of multi-tasking that can be learned by practicing.
The Rosary is based on and coming from the Scriptures. Pope St. John-Paul 2 encouraged all Catholics to pray and contemplate the Rosary.
"The Rosary is the "weapon" for these times" St. Padre Pio
ReplyDelete(All should read "The Power of the Rosary by Rev. Albert J.M. Shamon" or Johnnette (Women of Grace,EWTN) and co-author Thomas Sullivan's book "The Rosary: Your Weapon for Spiritual Warfare."
You would then have NO DIFFICULTY WHATSOEVER in promoting Mary and the Rosary.)
(Wars have been won with this weapon! Do not ignore or delay using it)
"Mary is the safest, easiest, shortest, and most perfect way of approaching Jesus." (St. Lois Marie de Monfort)
ReplyDelete