AnonymousJanuary 31, 2015 at 10:11 PM
Gosh, Tim absolutely nailed you on this Canon 766 didn't he? I'd love to see how you would argue against that!
I did not realize what he/she was referring to as Tim does not make any comments in my blog, so I assumed he/she must be referring to something Tim posted on his blog. At any rate, let us look at how the jungle speaks. According to Tim Rohr:
You reference Canon 766. Let me copy it in full here:
Can. 766 Lay persons can be permitted to preach in a church or oratory, if necessity requires it in certain circumstances or it seems advantageous in particular cases, according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops and without prejudice to ⇒ can. 767, §1.
Notice the ⇒ can. 767, §1 at the end of the canon, so let's copy that too:
Can. 767 §1. Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year.
The intelligent among us can easily see that "preaching" permitted to lay persons, while it may occur in a "church or oratory", is preaching which occurs OUTSIDE the Mass. This is made clear in Can. 767 §1 by distinguishing the "homily" from other forms of preaching, noting specifically that the "homily...is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon."
The jungle is now trying to convince people that Canon Law 767 is saying that the preaching of lay persons must be OUTSIDE the Mass. Do you see the word "OUTSIDE" anywhere in Canon 767? No. Do you see the phrase "outside of the Mass" anywhere in Canon 767? No. Canon 767 is simply saying that the homily is reserved only to a priest or deacon, and not to a layperson. In other words, Canon 766 clearly says that lay persons are permitted to preach in a church or oratory, and Canon 767 goes on to explain that the kind of preaching must not be a homily because it is reserved only to a priest or deacon. In no way is it saying that the lay person must preach outside the Mass.
Tim Rohr also stated the following:
We have no doubt that the Archbishop is giving these people permission to "preach during the homily" because we have seen the Archbishop himself invite lay people to the pulpit during the time reserved for the homily to give their testimony to the NCW. The question is though: "Does the Archbishop himself have permission to permit this practice?" The answer is "NO".
This is false. The Archbishop of Guam has the authority to permit this practice. Canon Law 765 gives him that authority. According to the following website "Canon Law Made Easy" (the bold is mine):
Note, however, that this prohibition pertains only to the preaching of a homily. There are other kinds of preaching which don’t constitute a homily. In such situations, canon 766 applies. This canon asserts that with regard to non-homiletic preaching, the lay faithful may be allowed to preach in a church, if in certain circumstances it is necessary.
The Instruction quotes canon 766, but rightly notes that the wording of the canon makes clear that the laity have to have permission to do this by competent authority (in this case, the diocesan bishop):
Canon Law Made Easy
The lay person have to have permission to preach in the Church according to that Catholic weblink I cited. So, contrary to Tim's statement, the Archbishop does indeed have the authority to permit this through canon law. Lastly, according to Tim Rohr (the bold is my emphasis):
The new Code of Canon Law was promulgated in 1983. Twenty years later, the Vatican had accumulated a list of abuses long enough to prompt John Paul II in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia to call upon the Congregation for Divine Worship (CDW), as the USCCB puts it: to develop an instruction explaining the deeper level of liturgical norms in the light of recent abuses of liturgical law throughout the world.
Tim Rohr cited the 1983 code, and is unaware that Canon Law 766 was approved in November 2001.
Furthermore, Tim Rohr took out of context the Redemptoris Sacramentum. Tim only cited RS 66 to make everyone believe that any preaching cannot be done within the Mass, but outside the Mass. To understand RS 66, one needed to look at RS 65 (the bold and underline is mine):
Note, however, that this prohibition pertains only to the preaching of a homily. There are other kinds of preaching which don’t constitute a homily. In such situations, canon 766 applies. This canon asserts that with regard to non-homiletic preaching, the lay faithful may be allowed to preach in a church, if in certain circumstances it is necessary.
The Instruction quotes canon 766, but rightly notes that the wording of the canon makes clear that the laity have to have permission to do this by competent authority (in this case, the diocesan bishop):
Canon Law Made Easy
The lay person have to have permission to preach in the Church according to that Catholic weblink I cited. So, contrary to Tim's statement, the Archbishop does indeed have the authority to permit this through canon law. Lastly, according to Tim Rohr (the bold is my emphasis):
The new Code of Canon Law was promulgated in 1983. Twenty years later, the Vatican had accumulated a list of abuses long enough to prompt John Paul II in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia to call upon the Congregation for Divine Worship (CDW), as the USCCB puts it: to develop an instruction explaining the deeper level of liturgical norms in the light of recent abuses of liturgical law throughout the world.
Tim Rohr cited the 1983 code, and is unaware that Canon Law 766 was approved in November 2001.
Furthermore, Tim Rohr took out of context the Redemptoris Sacramentum. Tim only cited RS 66 to make everyone believe that any preaching cannot be done within the Mass, but outside the Mass. To understand RS 66, one needed to look at RS 65 (the bold and underline is mine):
[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.
[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.[146]
See what I placed in bold and underlined in RS 65? As I mentioned previously in this post, Canon Law 767 never had anything to do with preaching outside the Mass (as Tim claimed). It had to do with laypersons preaching the homily which is forbidden. RS 65 makes it clear that the non-ordained faithful is prohibited from giving a homily and in RS 66, this prohibition is extended to seminarians, students of theological disciplines and even to pastoral assistants. So, RS 66 is not saying that lay persons cannot preach within the Mass. It is saying that lay persons cannot preach the homily. Tim Rohr also cites RS 74, which states:
[74.] If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a Church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,[156] nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.
This is the reason why the permission of the Diocesan Bishop is needed for a lay person to preach within the Church or oratory. Canon Law 766 says the layperson can preach in the Church and oratory as long as they have the permission of the Bishop while Canon Law 767 reminds everyone that the homily is reserved only for the priests and deacons. The NCW has the permission of the Archbishop to preach their testimony in the Church, and their testimonies are not homilies.
I applaud you for defending your beliefs, but why would you not want to reveal your identity? I think that you make some sound arguments...so why not pen your real name? Happy Sunday
ReplyDeletethe rohr....his followers and whites views present church rules.....regulations that they have become comfortable with........just like the Sadducees and Pharisees.
DeleteIn my opinion and mine only, they choose to practice good religion.Their actions to date are more concerned with social justice rather than communion with God.
I need to always believe that God and only God will reveal the truth. Praying always for his guidance to open my eyes to the truth.
I do not rely on man to reveal what is truth.
you ask for Diana to reveal her identity.....why?
What is written in black and white is for us to discern........we have the seen what rohr has written and what Diana written in response.
Better to ask God to reveal who is speaking to us........the Sadducees or Pharisees.....or worst yet king rohr
JSB
The reason I don't take sides is that I like to focus on particular questions. In any concrete question one side can be right and the other wrong, while in other question the opposite might be the case. So rather than pre-programming your mind by committing to either sides, you are free to to give a hard look to all details of a particular question. Does it make sense to you? If it does, then please listen.
DeleteYou read in the Bible that the throne of God is made of justice and righteousness and the spirit of peace is lingering around it. Three things are unified into one here: justice, righteousness and peace. JSB, you contrast justice with communion of God as if these could be separated. But can be? I have serious doubt. You talk about social justice. What is the different between justice and social justice? There is none. These two are one and the same. What do you mean by social justice that is different from justice itself?
I appreciate the opportunity to read your view. God reveals the truth by sending people who talk the truth. When you contemplate the Bible, you may also find the truth. Even your own efforts can lead you to recognize truth. Please, try to overcome agnosticism in the name of God.
- jeremy from auckland -
Jeremy, social justice is a socialist or communist political goal. They want uprisal and revolution to destroy everything we have now. Socialists are against the Church. They are atheists they want to eliminate Christianity and religion. We are not socialists. We despise their kind of "social justice". So please, forget this nonsense. God has nothing to do with "social justice".
DeleteTo preach in a church and to preach in a church during mass are two different things. If you are going to stay interpreting the canon laws letter by letter, you as much as Tim both CANNOT SAY that the preaching done by lay people is referring to preaching during mass or iutside of mass. Because if i use your argument: do you see 'during mass' written anywhere? ️I don't see it sorry. So the fact remains that the preaching or testimony can be done before or after the mass without any problems(in fact that is what they did in Malta last week, AFTER mass). But anyway all this is very childish now and I pity your situation.
ReplyDeleteDear Keith,
DeleteFrom your response, I see that you did not bother to read the Catholic website I provided....the one on Canon Law Made Easy. Furthermore, Canon 759 stated "By virtue of baptism and confirmation, lay members of the Christian faithful are witnesses of the gospel message by word and the example of a Christian life; they can also be called upon to cooperate with the bishop and presbyters in the exercise of the ministry of the word."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2I.HTM
According to what I quoted in my previous post on Canon Law 766:
Complementary Norm: Preaching the Word of God is among the principal duties of those who have received the sacrament of orders (cc. 762-764). The lay faithful can be called to cooperate in the exercise of the Ministry of the Word (c. 759). In accord with canon 766 the National Conference of Catholic Bishops hereby decrees that the lay faithful may be permitted to exercise this ministry in churches and oratories, with due regard for the following provisions:
To put it in plain simple terms, the Ministry of the Word is PART of the Mass. What I find childish is putting forth an argument without bothering to read what I wrote, and I pity your situation.
It is also very childish to allow the jungle to deceive the Catholic faithful into believing that the Archbishop was violating Church law, and I pity your situation.
Without providing website addresses and in your OWN words, please explain what the NCW's mission is as if I was a non-Catholic that you want to convert.
DeleteAnne G.
Canon law (c. 762 ff.) indicates a gradation of who can and should preach in the following order of precedence:
Delete1. bishops;
2. presbyters (there's that word again);
3. deacons;
4. professed religious;
5. and LAY PERSONS.
Preaching is part and parcel of our role as baptized and confirmed Catholics from the ordained person down on to the laity.
Preaching is not the same as a homily. In the celebration of mass, only an ordained cleric can give the homily. Lay persons cannot give the homily.
Canon 766 adds a peculiar phrase that the laity "are permitted to preach in a church or oratory, if necessity . . ." By adding the phrase 'in a church or oratory', the code of 1983 is stating explicitly that the laity, in addition to being able to preach everywhere, are NOW permitted, under certain conditions etc., to preach in a church or oratory. In the old (1917) code this was prohibited. We've come a long way!
So, let’s summarize the law:
Can I give the homily? NO.
Can I preach in a church? YES.
Can I preach in a church during the mass? YES, with proper authorization.
Therefore, if I have the proper authorization, I can preach during the mass.
Mind you, that in the Jewish tradition at the time of Jesus, a man who was a member of the synagogue and who was of age can preach in their weekly celebration of the Word. Jesus himself was not an ordained Jewish priest yet he was a preacher, a teacher, a rabbi. He too preached in the synagogue and in the Temple at Jerusalem. The Catholic church follows a similar tradition.
U need to all stop saying that the announcements r preaching. They r not. They r announcements!!!!! In the same way that u announce next week's bbq u announce the start of Catechises. U r creating confusion in a matter that has no confusion.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:48 am,
DeleteThese announcements are also testimonies because they are testifying to what God has done for them in their life's history.
They r not testimonies. U r confusing means and ends. The testimony is the announcement. It's like saying: we went to this great BBQ and want to invite u to another. The end here is not remembering the previous bbq but inviting people to the next by means of recalling the previous one. It is not an homily not preaching and not a testimony. It is an announcement.
DeleteIn regards to your reply to Keith (February 1 @12:40 pm), it is obviously YOU who has not read the site you yourself posted. If you had read the WHOLE page in question, you would have realized that he was talking about parishes where there are a shortage of priests and the bishop has allowed a lay person or group to say the mass. The whole part of the site that You (Diana), quote from goes on:
Delete"Note, however, that this prohibition pertains only to the preaching of a homily. There are other kinds of preaching which don’t constitute a homily. In such situations, canon 766 applies. This canon asserts that with regard to non-homiletic preaching, the lay faithful may be allowed to preach in a church, if in certain circumstances it is necessary.
The Instruction quotes canon 766, but rightly notes that the wording of the canon makes clear that the laity have to have permission to do this by competent authority (in this case, the diocesan bishop): “In no instance is this a right, such as that which is specific and proper to the Bishop or a faculty such as enjoyed by priests and deacons” (Article 2). A layperson appointed to administer a parish lacking a priest cannot, therefore, decide on his own that he’s going to stand up at the parish recitation of the Rosary and (let’s say) preach on the Joyful Mysteries—even if that layperson happens to be a world-renowned expert on that subject! Only the bishop can permit a layperson to preach in such circumstances, period.
So now we have the full answer to Mark’s question. If a parish lacks its own priest, and is entrusted to the care of a deacon, that deacon can certainly preach to the parishioners, including a homily at a Sunday-morning Communion service. Otherwise, no layman, no religious sister or brother, has the authority to preach a homily during the liturgy at such a parish—although he/she might be permitted to preach something other than a homily in a non-liturgical ceremony in the church. We can see here the Church’s insistence that preaching the Word of God is intrinsically connected to ordination to the clerical state. And at the same time, we can find here another reason to pray for more vocations to the priesthood."
I hope you actually read the whole post next time you quote from a page, so you don't make a full of yourself, as anyone who actually reads the site you kindly linked can obviously see.
Dear Anonymous at 6:31 pm,
DeleteYes, I read the whole page, which is the reason why I said that a lay person can preach DURING Mass. I provided that website to show that in the absence of a priest, the lay person can be called to assist in lay preaching in the Mass and not only outside the Mass. That was my point.
Furthermore, this is what Canon Law 766 states (the capitalization is mine):
Can. 766 Lay persons can be permitted to preach in a church or oratory, if necessity requires it in certain circumstances OR IT SEEMS ADVANTEOUS IN PARTICULAR CASES, according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops and without prejudice to ⇒ can. 767, §1.
The part in the Canon Law that says "IF NECESSITY REQUIRES IT" is the part where the lay person preaches during the Mass when there is a shortage of priest.
The OTHER part that says " OR IT SEEMS ADVANTEOUS IN PARTICULAR CASES" has nothing to do with a shortage of priests. Having a lay person give their testimonial experience of how God helped them in their life in Mass fulfills this part in the Canon Law. And the NCW has the permission of the Archbishop to do this.
Perhaps, I was a bit harsh to Keith in my response to him. And for that, I apologize. I know that he has been very civil in this blogsite, and it was never my intention to hurt him or be harsh in my response.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu393.htm
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-okay-for-a-lay-person-to-preach-at-sunday-mass
There are many other websites which say what Tim said. It is not his misinterpretation this time, but yours. You cannot give a homily, and if you wish to talk during mass, either do it after a homily is given or preferably outside mass, that is after mass.
Anyway I have a question, because you post anything to make the ncw sound a perfect place for christians, and sometimes what the pope says, but when I suggested to post the homily by the pope about privatization of faith you did not take any notice of it. That is surely a biased response and that is how the catechists manipulate the members. Congratulations you are ready to become a catechist. It is sad to think all your interpretations are right without asking any questions and any liturgy or canon law specialist (the archbishop isn't one, it's not a requirement to know the exact interpretation of the canon laws hence why the many liturgical abuses still exist today)
Dear Keith,
DeleteFirst of all, where in my post or comments did I ever say that the laity can give a homily????? You say that there are other websites which says what Tim said. So, point them out and please do not provide any of those anti-Neo websites. Provide a Vatican website or a neutral Catholic website.
Secondly, yes, I notice that you suggested to post the homily of the Pope. But I still have the FREE WILL to decide whether to take your suggestion or not. I published your comment, which has the link to the Pope's homily, but whether I take your suggestion or not is MY CHOICE.
And finally, remember that it was YOU who made this judgment when YOU stated: "But anyway all this is very childish now and I pity your situation." Disagreements are fine, but name-calling is not. May I suggest that you read the comment made by Anonymous 8:28 pm? Also, did you not say to me that you had no problems with the NCW liturgy? If you do not have a problem with the liturgy of the NCW, then why are you bringing up liturgical abuses?
And for your information, the website I provided in my post is a website of a canon lawyer who practices law and teaches in Rome.
Diana, it is undoubtedly your prerogative to make or not make a post about the sermon of Pope Francis. You are the owner of the blog. But it would show a spirit of charity if you would give it a chance. Whatever grudge you hold against Keith this should not have an impact on including or not the Pope in the discussion. Keith is one of the most civil contributor to your blog. So please be a sport and open up. Show us you care. Thanks.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:39 pm,
DeleteThis is what Keith stated when he made that suggestion:
keith xuerebJanuary 30, 2015 at 12:00 AM
I am pasting a link about the Pope's homily today. I suggest you post it on the blog not because necessarily the ncw and your community is such an 'ecclesial elite group' (actually i hope and pray it isn't) but to show people that your thoughts agree with what the pope says about guarding in a community such as the ncw communities. Here is the link :) http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-no-to-ecclesial-elites-who-privatize-the-fait
I chose not to post the Pope's sermon as Keith suggested because Keith has already judged the NCW as an " 'ecclesial elite group" according to his comment. I have already stated many times in my blog that the NCW is NOT the only way to salvation. The Legion of Mary, the Charismatic Catholics Renewal, Opus Dei, and many others offer the same salvation for we are all one under the Catholic Church and under one Holy Spirit despite the diversity and variety.
It is only in the jungle where you will find our Catholic brothers there saying that we are not Catholics, that we are not welcome in the Church, that we should create a church of our own. It is only in the jungle where you will find the Catholic brothers there telling everyone to leave a "Neo-Parish" and discriminating against RMS priests. They already see us as an 'ecclesial elite group' and nothing we say or do will change their minds.
Dear diana, I kinda agree with Keith on this one. All these arguements on kneeling, not kneeling, homily during,before, after are childish. It is an attempt to discredit the way by people who r desperate and who do not understand the church. Oh they r very erudite but they cannot see the forest for the leaves. They think kneeling is more important than a sinner converting. Lex prima salus animarum. They r trying to smear the way with inanities. I don't know why even bother to entertain them. They r not interested in dialogue or finding the truth. They r the small minded people who think the church is monolithic and the private property of few. This is nothing new in the history of the church. All the splinter groups that separated after v2 did it claiming they were the real church on the basis of details like Latin or kneeling at the rail or whatever. Why give these disgruntled bitter people a forum?
DeleteAnswers according to Diana's paragraphs-
Delete1st paragraph:
So i wrote before- "You cannot give a homily, and if you wish to talk during mass, either do it after a homily is given or preferably outside mass, that is after mass." - you cannot give a homily is a statement, it does not imply whether or not you ever said you intent to give a homily or not. I am also stating that it is better to give a testimony or preach after the homily or best after mass. I think this is very clear as every mass which has these additions which is a rare thing in its own, is done either after the homily or after the mass. I also provides two websites (but talking like you i would say- it appears you didn't even care to read what i wrote in it's entirety but I don't like to talk that way)
2nd:
Well yes you have your free will, my free will is thinking that you not posting that is because you don't want to risk losing any members from the ncw, or from getting a reprimand from your catechists, that is not free will.
3rd:
When i said it is childish i said "all this is very childish and i pitt your situation." This means- the situation and this way of answering each other from one blog to another yet none of you have the guts to talk to the other side face to face is childish, not that any person is childish. Also I pity your situation- your situation refers to the situation of both sides, your as in all the catholics involved. That is not name calling. Do not try to change what i say please, i know what I write and how i speak and i try not to hurt anyone but only suggest another way to see the truth. But i surely never insult anyone, i have values which i like to adhere to.
3rd part ii:
I Read the comment and i still cannot see clearly the word mass. The church, the oratory is not used only for a mass. So it is not specifying if the preaching can or cannot be done during the mass. A church or oratory is not the mass.
Also at least out of respect, yes i do not have problems usually with small changes in the liturgy, BUT that changes if there are people who feel that the church isn't as united as s/he thought. So for the sake of unity (and that is why they exist), liturgical laws are to be exactly followed by all the priests and laity.
Your next comment:
About me saying the ncw are an ecclesial elite group- maybe you didn't see the word 'not' so i will copy paste it here again- " I suggest you post it on the blog not because necessarily the ncw and your community is such an 'ecclesial elite group' (actually i hope and pray it isn't) but to show people that your thoughts agree..." - So, IF I already judged the ncw as being such a group, why would I say "...not because...", and the following words?- "i hope and pray"- I wouldn't have hope that it isn't such a group if i already believed it is. I am just proposing that maybe there can be a tendency for such a group such as the ncw to become such an enclosed group so to prevent that i suggested you post it on your blog so the members of the ncw who see your blog would know that it is not the way to act.
Also, last paragraph in the last comment- unfortunately this is not true- there are many websites which have always increasing numbers of people, in fact there is a website for every country that the ncw has considerable power, spain, poland, italy, and guam. There are also a number of articles written by psychologists or psychiatrists showing scientific methods used in the ncw techniques which are questionable in other areas of life let alone in religious based organizations like the ncw.
Dear Anonymous at 1:43 am,
DeleteSaid in this way, I agree with you here.
Dear Keith,
DeleteI and a few of the brothers have spoken on the other side. All you had to do was ask if anyone has actually posted on the other blog. It was back in February, 2014 when I posted in junglewatch. They were not interested in what I had to say. They were more interested in finding out my identity. They accused me of being a priest, and they could not move further than that. All discussion was lost because they only wanted to know our identity.
Melanie also tried to reason with them. They ridiculed her and accused her of being the Archbishop. She continually kept telling them that she is not the Archbishop, but they would not believe her. Everything she said was lost to them because they were not interested in what she had to say. They only accused her of being the Archbishop and to prove to them that she is not the Archbishop.
Zoltan (who used his real name) also posted in the jungle. They threatened his job. With that being said, do you still think we should continue to post in the jungle??? This blog was set up so that the NCW would have a voice here to try and dispel the deliberate misconceptions of the jungle whose only goal is to remove the Archbishop and destroy the NCW on Guam. In this blog, there are some people who are not walking in the Way, but they come here, willing to listen to what we have to say even if they do not agree with us. And then there are also people who come here with malicious intent rather than have a dialogue of understanding.
The website you provided does showed what I had been saying all along......that a lay person cannot give a homily. You are not the Archbishop. It is the decision of the Archbishop to decide whether the testimony of the brother should be given before, after, or during the Mass. This is not for you to decide. You cannot tell our Archbishop what he should and should not do. In Guam, there are already too many "wanna be" bishops here that we do not need someone from Malta to decide what the Archbishop of Guam should do.
Furthermore, contrary to what is being said in the jungle, the testimony (or announcement as some people prefer to call it) takes place after the homily, not during the homily. The NCW offers a spiritual advantage to the Catholic faithful, and they can preach in Church or in the oratory so long as they have the permission of the Bishop; however, it must never be confused to the homily. Thus, the lay preaching is always done after the homily. According to the USCCB:
"The diocesan bishop will determine the appropriate situations in accord with canon 772, §1. In providing for preaching by the lay faithful the diocesan bishop may never dispense from the norm which reserves the homily to the sacred ministers (c. 767, §1; cfr. Pontifical Commission for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law, 26 May 1987, in AAS 79 [1987], 1249)"
The above statement shows that the Diocesan Bishop can allow lay preaching during the Mass so long as it is not confused with the homily. The lay preaching should also never take the place of the homily.
Diana, you were accused of being fr. Adrian, fr. Edivaldo, jackie terlaje and Holly Leon Guerrero. Who's next on the list, Jimmy Hoffa?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:00 pm,
DeleteThe last I heard, someone in the jungle accused me of being Sue......whatever her last name is. Sorry....no offense, I do not know how to spell her last name.
dear Anne,
ReplyDeleteUr hypothetical is flawed. The mission of the NCW and of the church is not to convert but to evangelize. Those r 2 very different things. In order to tell u that god loves u I would not tell u what the the NCW does I would tell u how God has acted in my life through the church.
However if u want to know the mission of the NCW in my own words and I am no authority, here goes. The NCW is an itinerary of faith. in the early church, christians lived this itinerary before they were baptized. These people preparing for baptism were called catechumens. Today the situation of the church is that the great majority of baptized adults do not live the faith according to the gift of baptism. 1. Because they have never seen God palpably in their lives 2. Because they have not received adequate instruction. The NCW helps people to rediscover the gift of baptism by 1. Eucharist: living the joy of the resurrection through the sacrament of the eucharist. 2.Word: Experiencing the relevance of the word of God in everyday life 3. Community: by living the faith within a community of believers where u really come to love the other as Christ. These people are then known as neo or new catechumens. The call of neocatecumens is to be part of a community that lives in humility, simplicity and praise where the other is christ, so that the world may know that love and unity are possible and that they exist even between people who are different in age, sex, race, education, social status etc, not because these are good people who don't sin. On the contrary. But because God makes the miracle of love and unity happen among them.
Thank you Anonymous 5:58. If this is in fact the mission of the NCW (simplified nutshell), then why are so many people (not just those from Guam) against the Way?
DeleteDiana, I was hoping for you to provide a response to my initial question. I'd still like to know what your view is...again, without any websites or cutting and pasting.
Again Anonymous 5:58, thank you for the insight. This has made sense to me.
Anne G.
Dear Anne G.
DeleteWhen we go out to evangelize in two by twos after Easter, we would knock on the doors. When a person answers the door, we ask the person if they would like us to sing a song for them or to pray for them or someone in their family who needs prayers. Some prefer the prayers, and we would pray together with them. Others would choose a song, and the songs we sing are songs, praising God. That is how we evangelize door to door.
I'm guessing people just aren't used to that. Maybe it's not that they're against it, it's just foreign to them.
DeleteSo in your own words, the mission of the NCW is to evangelize door to door either through prayer or song?
Anne G.
Anne G.
Deleteyou may have heard about the Way being secretive.....this is true in one respect.
who is am or anyone to say how or when God speaks to a person and how that person chooses to respond.
For those who walk in the way, this is richly personal and we will only speak about our personal experience.
The Word comes alive to those who desire....truly desire the presence of Jesus Christ in their life.
The Way is not for everyone Anne. It is not easy to follow Jesus Christ....it is not easy.
but if you do....when you do.....you'll find peace.......heaven on earth kind of thing.
Did anyone notice that the Neocatechumenal Way is the only reality here in Guam that is constantly growing and is the biggest reality as an association in our Church here? How is it possible that people who are Catholic want to destroy it?
DeleteWhat is motivating these people who want to exterminate the Neocatechumenal Way in our island? It is not Christian Charity, that is certain. Maybe it is envy.
Envy is a capital sin. The Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes St. Augustine who sees envy as "the diabolical sin." "From envy are born hatred, detraction, calumny, joy caused by the misfortune of a neighbor, and displeasure caused by his prosperity."
Anon 12:53,
DeleteYou need to hold your leadership accountable for self destruction. No one has any problem with people being converted...many have problems with a movement stepping on others.
Anon 11:47,
"The Way is not for everyone Anne. It is not easy to follow Jesus Christ....it is not easy."
Condescending statements like yours is a reflection of the arrogance of the NCW as a whole. And it is easy to follow Jesus Christ...you will realize this when you truly have Him in your heart.
Dear Anonymous at 6:30 am,
DeleteI am confused as to what you are addressing here.
Diana.....I do not think you are the one confused.
Deleteanon Feb 02 6:30 has read and fulfilled the Sermon of the Mount.
if in fact true......I believe we have a Saint in anon Feb 02 6:30
if he or she has not read and fulfilled MAT 5-7 .......then we have a hypocrite
JSB
Dear Anon ar 5.04pm. you can't help being condescending can you?
DeleteJesus said, "For my yoke is easy and my burden light"
Juan S. B.... All of a sudden you are an expert on the Bible? Since when?
DeleteDear Anne G. at Feb. 1, 10:37 pm,
DeleteI apologize for not publishing this comment. For some reason, it ended up in my spam box instead of my inbox. To answer your question, it is not very common for Catholics to evangelize door to door as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses do. And yes, we go from door to door evangelizing through a song or prayer.
No anon...feb 2, 2015.....I am not Juan S.
Deleteyou made two wrong assumptions......
try again.....but the question was asked.....have you read and fulfilled the Sermon of the Mount?
JSB
Thanks to Anonymous 12:53.
ReplyDeleteAnne G.
IN my parish it is not uncommon (a few times a year perhaps) for a lay member to make an announcement during the Mass. This is almost always done after the prayer after communion and before the final blessing. On some few occasions the announcement has been made after the final blessing and prior to the recession.
ReplyDeleteHowever, these addresses are always by nature "announcements" - giving information relating to particular goings on in the parish, or financial aspects of the parish or activities being organised usually by the parish council.
The big difference in the NCW is the "testimony" aspect, which inevitably makes statements about the Church (etc the church did nothing for me until I encountered the "Way"), or about the faith (see "Ernie's" rambles about Judaism for instance). It is always implied by these testimonies that the "regular" or "Sunday" Catholics are not real Catholics, that their faith is deficient, and that the Church we thought we knew is not really the Church.
Not only is it debatable whether these testimonies should occur in the Mass, it is arguable that they should not happen at all, as you can see where that attitude of division leads.
Dear Anonymous at 11:09 am,
DeleteThe speaker does not make any statements about the Church. He makes a statement about his life and how God was able to help him through the Way. There are people in the parish who are going through difficult times, and the person make these testimonies to help those people become aware that he/ she is not alone in their trials. The Way is offered as a help just like Couple for Christ have helped marriages, Their testimonies do not imply that Sunday Catholics are not real Catholics. That has never been said in Church.
It is not easy to judge the intention of why the person making the announcement about the Way is doing so with that particular mindset. Are the so-called 'regular sunday catholics' at a deficiency and do they lack faith? If a lay person says 'you need to increase faith', now different is that if it comes from the mouth of a priest? Oftentimes, we judge what is said by who said it - lay person or ordained? In a homily, preaching or announcement?
DeleteI think the issue of the intention of the one speaking, or preaching, or the one making the announcement of the catechesis needs to be discussed. On the other end, the one receiving the announcement/preaching is also to be analyzed to see if their presuppositions and prejudices play a part in receiving or refusing the message.
In closing, remember that even Jesus was rejected and accepted by many for various reasons. Also keep in mind that many enemies of Jesus were also the most devout and religious personalities of the Jewish religion at the time.
Dear Diana at 11.52.
DeleteWhat you say is patently untrue. I have heard these testimonies myself. I have heard the NCW imply that the faith of those outside the NCW is deficient. They don't say this directly of course - which is why I say implied. It is always a case of how they used to go to Sunday Mass and that was it, and now they are much better because of the NCW. This is the normal attitude. Sometimes it is subtle, and sometimes it is downright insulting.
Even the Archbishop's introduction to "Evelyn's" testimony implies the same thing. He invites us to listen to Evelyn so we can "live a good Catholic Christian life" - the implication being that if you are not in the NCW you are not living a "good Catholic Christian life".
Dear Anonymous at 12:59 pm,
DeleteTheir testimonies is about themselves and their experiences. For example, when the person say that he found Sunday Mass boring and that he felt he is not growing in faith by going to Church....that is his experience and should not be generalize to everyone there. The truth is some people will find the Mass boring while others will not. You can survey even the teenagers and ask if they know the readings that Sunday morning. Some of them do not know the readings simply because they are not listening during Mass. If you feel that you are happy in your life and feel that your faith is strong, then the Way is not for you. The NCW is there to help those who are not happy in their life and whose faith is very weak that they leave Mass early after they received Holy Communion.
"that they leave Mass early after they received Holy Communion. "
DeleteHow do they hear the testimony then?
Dear Anon at 12.29, thankyou for your response, and I take your points.
DeleteThe problem is that these "communications" (ie through the testimonies during Mass), are not isolated. They occur within the context of behavior that reinforces the implications I have suggested. Think about "dry bones", the judgemental attitude of neos to anyone outside their group. Think about the false dichotomies they establish between pagan "natural religiosity" and the Christian religion. The Church has always taught that natural religion prepares one to receive the true faith - that "grace perfects nature". This is implicitly rejected by the NCW. Think about how the NCW treat those who are already baptised. Is there any distinction made, in a practical way (that is, in what is delivered in the catechesis, in what is described as necessary for a neocatechumen to believe and do) between a "member" who is baptised and one who is not? For all intents and purposes the baptism is forgotten.
Think about how Evelyn in her "testimony" stated "he knows you cannot get out from that sin". Remember she is addressing Mass-going baptised Catholics here.
Refer to Romans chapter 6. Paul instructs that as many as those that have been baptised in Christ, have been put to death with Christ, and are freed from sin. We should be telling our brothers and sisters that we know longer need to live under our sin anymore, as we have been freed from that death through our Baptism into Christ. The NCW teach us exactly the opposite - unless of course we choose them, rather than the "regular" Catholic Church, which, as "Ernie" tells us - has failed!
Anon 12:59 - I hear what you are saying. I am a member of the Way and I think we need to address this to Fr. Pius that the attitude that is being perceived is coming from people who are not against the way, and I would venture to say that these people even support the Archbishop. We have a problem in the Way of appearing to be 'special' and 'better', dare i say even 'elite'. We have to break this attitude among ourselves. Even if we try to hide this attitude inside ourselves, it shows itself in our body language and in our looks. I say WE because I am in the Way, I love the Way and I believe that it is a special gift from God to help the church. But, we cannot have this attitude in us that we are in any way superior to or better than the folks who only come to sunday mass. The graces they receive from the Sunday mass are from God for that person in his or her situation. Who are we to cast doubt on the graces that God imparts on those who are not in the community?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:02 pm,
DeleteThe testimony (or announcement) is given before Holy Communion, so they would be able to hear it.
Dear Anonymous at 3:22 pm,
DeleteOnly the Protestants teach that they are freed from sin. Our Baptism freed us from "Original Sin", but we still struggle with "personal sins." The only persons who were free from Original sin and from all personal sins were Jesus and Mary. The NCW does not teach the opposite of what the Catholic Church teach.
I totallya gree with An. 440pm...i love the community but it is attitude that outsiders perceive of us. i.e., we feel and think we are better than the 'other'. We have the Word and Liturgy and monthly convivence... we have scrutinies to determine our progress in the next stage...definitely perceive as
Delete'elitist'. God works also through the people not in the communities.....
Dear Diana at 6.14. Read the passage from Romans. I am not suggesting that Baptism prevents us from sinning personally, but clearly the author is saying that we are no longer under the dominion of sin because our Baptism changes everything. The NCW do not get this distinction and therefore treat all new members as though their baptism is meaningless without the steps of the "Way"
DeleteDear anon 4:40. I would be the first to congratulate you on your sentiments. However, remember that Ernie is Pius. And these problems are essential to the NCW because they form the assumptions on which the "evangelisation" of the NCW is based. There needs to be wholesale reform from top to bottom concerning these matters. But you will probably agree that the leaders of the NCW will not admit that any error exists in the NCW structure and practise, and that only superficial adjustments or improvements could be made, This is an ideological issue. I wish you well in your attempts to see change occur, but I would make sure I had a backup plan if I were you, once you raise these views with your catechist.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:32 pm,
DeleteThe Holy Bible says that "not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of God but those who do the will of my Father in Heaven."
Baptism becomes meaningless if one does not live their baptismal promises through conversion. In other words, even a baptized person can lose their salvation. We are not like the Protestants who believe in the "once save always save" concept. We are Catholics who believe that we are in the process of being saved. A process involves "step by step".
St. Paul even described this step by step process when he told the Church in Corinth that he could not instruct them in spiritual matters yet because they were not yet ready for it.
1 Corinthians 3:1-2 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
We are called to become like Christ, and for many of us that takes a very long process.
Dear Diana at 7.03pm. Ok then. Tell me what happens to our salvation after spending 30 years in the Way, having completed all the steps. Are you saved by this? And if not, why is it then necessary to have this step by step, as you say. Are you not then in exactly the same situation as any other baptised Catholic? If not, how do you differ. What would happen if you suffered amnesia then. Would you have to start all over again? Or would you still be considered as one of the "elect"?
Delete'If you feel that you are happy in your life and feel that your faith is strong, then the Way is not for you. The NCW is there to help those who are not happy in their life and whose faith is very weak that they leave Mass early after they received Holy Communion"
DeleteSERIOUSLY DIANA?? The NCW is only for those who are not happy in their life???
Dear Anonymous at 7:35 pm,
DeleteYes, we are in the same position as a baptized Catholic. For many people, conversation takes a lifetime.
Dear Anonymous at 9:15 pm,
DeleteYes, seriously. You do not need to join the Way if you do not want to. If you are happy in your life and feel that the Sunday Masses has fulfilled yourself as a Catholic, then you can continue to do what you have always been doing. You do not need to join the Way if you do not want. That is your choice. But please do not deny others who want to join in it.
Anonymous @12:53 - I don't think it's envy. It's that something different has been introduced and there is a sense of defending what has been the tradition. (It doesn't help that the head of our Catholic church on Guam took a side and now is perceived to be 'favouring' that side.) Had this been mediated properly from the beginning and throughout, I truly believe the Way would be welcomed by all non-walkers as much as the other orders/groups, existing. (Just as it is in many other stateside diocese).
ReplyDeleteI'd like to ask: is it the goal of the Neos to turn all Catholic churches on Guam to be Neo, as it is purported? Will all songs then be the flamenco-style songs written by Kiko, will our statues and pictures now be from Kiko's collection? (I ask this because of what my Auntie said happened at Barrigada and Santa Rita.) Will masses then be on Saturdays? What is the ultimate goal of the Neos?
That's what I'm hearing from family members and I just want to know if it's true or if they are being paranoid.
Absolutely not. That is not the mission of the NCW. Please read comment above for mission of ncw. On the contrary, one of the great beauties of the church is that the Holy Spirit inspires such diversity of charisms. The church has a place for everyone. The NCW is just one more charism. It is one of the great works of the devil to sow disunity and incomprehension within the church. What beauty there would be if all the different members of the churched worked together! It is vital that there be diversity in the church. How else can the world see unity?
DeleteAnon 12:53: But what exactly do you mean by defending the tradition. Give me instances and facts. What is meant by turning churches to be 'Neo'? Can you cite examples and actual statements that way you are saying if for a fact? It's important to move away from perceptions and state facts. Thanks.
DeleteTo comment on the issue of Santa Rita. The statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe whom has graced the church for many, many years has not been restored to its original site yet. The neo painting currently in that spot will remain there I suppose at the direction of Archbishop Apuron who says the statue of Our Lady can be put in the rectory if we want. She is still under wraps hidden in the back of the church. This is just one of the many things that is disturbing.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:26 am,
DeleteHave you even asked the parish priest about the statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe?
Does anyone know if the Pope will be addressing the NCW as he often does around this time of the year?
ReplyDeleteDiana @5:38am -- yes, We were told that the Archbishop said we can put the statue up in the rectory if we want.
ReplyDeletebut not in the church in her original place!! why not??? and replaced by a kiko painting!
Deleteone example of exactly why people think the neos want to change all the churches on guam to be neo.
Dear Anonymous at 9:55 pm,
DeleteRather than making speculations, why not ask the parish priest that question?
He was asked and the response was that the Archbishop said she can be put in the rectory if we want. That right there tells you that there's no moving her back to her original place. Another time someone asked the parish priest again and he got angry. I guess we'll keep asking until he gets tired and have no choice but to put her back or better yet we can enlist some of our physically strong parishioners to bring her out from under wraps and place her in her original spot.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:02 pm,
DeleteThen let us pray that we learn to be obedient to the Archbishop, whom God has chosen.
Yes Diana, but the problem with being obedient to Archbishop Apuron will result in the NCW taking over our churches.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:43 pm,
DeleteDo not worry. The NCW is Catholic.
That's what you think Diana. Not everyone agrees with you though.
DeleteWait....I thought NCW is just a group that helps disenfranchised Catholics come back. How can they "take over our churches"? You don't hear of the Knights, or Catholic Daughters taking over the church. You don't hear of them changing statues to their pictures. Your comment "Do not worry" is cryptic and implies that is a possibility.
DeleteIf so, then what of the majority of Guam Catholics who do not walk? But, wait, again....you have said that NCW is not for everyone. So you invite them to leave the Catholic Faith (should all churches be NCW)?
That's right 8:28 AM. You also don't hear of the Knights, Catholic Daughters, Christian Mothers, Cursillo, etc., having their own separate & 'different' mass and having their own set of songs not sung in the main church. I always wonder why. If the NCW is supposed to help bring back the disenfranchised Catholics, why do they do things differently, Diana?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:04 pm,
DeleteIt is not a separate Mass that we celebrate. Also, the Pope already approved of us celebrating in small communities. That is in the Statutes. If you have a problem with the Pope's approval, please take it up with him.
You didn't answer the question Diana. Why are things done differently in the NCW?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:47 pm,
DeleteThey're not done differently. All the things we are doing are approved by the Vatican.
Every one thinks he knows better than the other. I am a better Archibishop. I am better than the Parish priest. I am better than the NEO people and priest. I know better. They should follow me. I think some people know that this is the root cause here. IF I KNOW BETTER, I AM NO. 1. IF I AM NO. 1. I deserved to be loved.
ReplyDeleteWE ALL FORGET that We are loved....man, we are a long way to be converted.
Tim Rohr, I should thank you! You are just a damn difficult person to Love. Its hard to love thy neighbor. The law of Christ is just difficult. Its impossible. Really!