During the meeting, someone yelled at me, I was accused that I am a colonizer and should go back to my country. Nobody countered that. I requested opportunity from Vangie Lujan to respond, who moderated the discussion, based on personal attack. Vangie wanted to allow me to respond to the charge, but Greg Perez overrode her and closed the discussion. It was after the end of the meeting when I told Vangie that I was denied to respond to a personal attack and this could come out in the newspapers. I did not mention PDN or any particular newspaper, so she does not remember correctly. It was not a threat to her. It is interesting what Vangie Lujan is now saying that she felt threatened by my comment after the Agat meeting of CCoG last Thursday. All I said was that the press may learn about the antics of CCoG. What is it so threatening about a news report of a public meeting? Perhaps, maybe only perhaps, could something shameful have happened there that CCoG wants to keep hidden?
Under the circumstances and the accusations made at Junglewatch, I am compelled to give a more detailed account of what exactly happened last night at the CCoG meeting. I don't provide a full transcript out of respect for the people of Agat who were mostly innocent bystanders of the events. Shortly after the lengthy presentations of Mr. Rohr and Mr. Perez I raised my hand and asked a few questions. I add explanations to my questions here in order to indicate the context.
1. Where is the evidence that Fr. Gofigan's release from the Santa Barbara church is Dededo was related to the NCW? Explanation: Mr. Rohr published a pamphlet, apparently without ISBN number, about the case, but there is no evidence anywhere of the involvement of the NCW. What is the source of this pamphlet? Is this, perhaps, a gossip and hearsay only?
Under the circumstances and the accusations made at Junglewatch, I am compelled to give a more detailed account of what exactly happened last night at the CCoG meeting. I don't provide a full transcript out of respect for the people of Agat who were mostly innocent bystanders of the events. Shortly after the lengthy presentations of Mr. Rohr and Mr. Perez I raised my hand and asked a few questions. I add explanations to my questions here in order to indicate the context.
1. Where is the evidence that Fr. Gofigan's release from the Santa Barbara church is Dededo was related to the NCW? Explanation: Mr. Rohr published a pamphlet, apparently without ISBN number, about the case, but there is no evidence anywhere of the involvement of the NCW. What is the source of this pamphlet? Is this, perhaps, a gossip and hearsay only?
2. Is it true that there was talk among the members of the previous financial council for the Archbishop of selling the Yona seminary? Explanation: There is a lot of talk about the seminary, but not much about protecting its function. Is it not possible that what happened there was for protecting its function as a seminary for the foreseeable future?
3. What is the reason of spreading superstition about the NCW: claiming NCW teaches that "Jesus was a sinner"? Explanation: a conceptual charge of heresy was made based on a taped speech of one single person who obviously cannot speak English very well. However, no one spoke directly to this person and asked him if he believed that Jesus was a sinner.
4. How would CCoG increase transparency in parish finances if parishioners are encouraged to shortcut collection and give donations directly to the priests in envelopes? Explanation: CCoG has an item on its agenda to increase transparency and accountability. If CCoG president Mr. Perez encourages the above mentioned practice, is he not in apparent contradiction with the goals of CCoG?
5. What is wrong with presbyters and the celebration of St. Patrick's day? Explanation: It was claimed that presbyters are not priests and St. Patrick's Day is not a Catholic holiday. Perhaps, the leader of CCoG was not aware that Catholic presbyters are consecrated priests and St. Patrick's Day is a great feast day in the mainland and in many Catholic countries around the world.
6. How could one Catholic group call for war against another Catholic group? How could the same person claim that the war he is suggesting is a "war against the devil"? Explanation: Jesus teaches love and peace, but not war against your own denomination. Perhaps, Mr. Perez has never learned about Jesus as a teacher of all Christians?
I did not get answer for any of these questions, except the 2nd. Mr. Rohr said that the financial council did not have authority to sell the property. This was a smart sentence. Unfortunately, it was not a real answer to the yes/no question that should have been a clear yes or no! What we got instead, was simple evasion. Then, sensing that sand got into the CCoG machinery, Mr. Rohr gave a noticeable hand sign. He did not know that hard-of-hearing people, like myself, are alert of nonverbal communication. I was sitting in the front row, so I just saw everything! After the sign was secretly given, someone stood up, started shrieking and yelling at me. I won't repeat what this person uttered. It was a clear instance of a prearranged xenophobic attack, some kind of Plan B or escape mechanism in case of trouble for the masterminds of the meeting. I had to call attention that I am an American citizen who cannot be sent "back to your country". Well, I don't have to say that an angry mobbing mood developed in an instant and I felt seriously threatened for my safety. Meantime Mr. Rohr was smiling like a sphinx as if teasing me, "you see it is not me, I am not doing anything..." This lynching atmosphere felt obviously good for him and his smile showed that he enjoyed it.
At further comments from several people I was also accused of being a colonizer and someone who "changes the official Catechism of the Catholic Church". This turn of events was greatly puzzling. I requested time from CCoG secretary Vangie Lujan, who moderated the meeting, to respond to these new charges based on personal attack. We all know the parliamentary rules, called Robert's Rules, that grant an opportunity of rebuttal for personal attack. First, she wanted to allow me to respond but a quick hand sign was given, this time by Mr. Perez, indicating that my request should be denied. I could see this very well. It was a true shame that Robert's Rule was replaced by the Bully's Rule, despite the good intention of the moderator.
In Mt 23:37 Jesus laments: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you (...) stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
After the closing prayer, when people started to leave to premises, I came to Vangie and told her that I was denied the opportunity of responding to a public personal attack and this could be in the newspapers tomorrow. I did not mention PDN or any particular newspaper. She did not say she took it as a threat. On the contrary, she shared with me that she had a degree in mathematics and I congratulated her. We got a friendly conversation. She asked me to help her to make an appointment with the Archbishop. I told her it was impossible for me, as I have no connection to the chancery. I asked her why CCoG does not separate its concerns related to the Archbishop from those related to the NCW. I would be glad to help in any issue, according to my best knowledge, relating to the NCW, but I cannot speak for the Archbishop. I think she understood this. I said good night when she left.
At further comments from several people I was also accused of being a colonizer and someone who "changes the official Catechism of the Catholic Church". This turn of events was greatly puzzling. I requested time from CCoG secretary Vangie Lujan, who moderated the meeting, to respond to these new charges based on personal attack. We all know the parliamentary rules, called Robert's Rules, that grant an opportunity of rebuttal for personal attack. First, she wanted to allow me to respond but a quick hand sign was given, this time by Mr. Perez, indicating that my request should be denied. I could see this very well. It was a true shame that Robert's Rule was replaced by the Bully's Rule, despite the good intention of the moderator.
In Mt 23:37 Jesus laments: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you (...) stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
After the closing prayer, when people started to leave to premises, I came to Vangie and told her that I was denied the opportunity of responding to a public personal attack and this could be in the newspapers tomorrow. I did not mention PDN or any particular newspaper. She did not say she took it as a threat. On the contrary, she shared with me that she had a degree in mathematics and I congratulated her. We got a friendly conversation. She asked me to help her to make an appointment with the Archbishop. I told her it was impossible for me, as I have no connection to the chancery. I asked her why CCoG does not separate its concerns related to the Archbishop from those related to the NCW. I would be glad to help in any issue, according to my best knowledge, relating to the NCW, but I cannot speak for the Archbishop. I think she understood this. I said good night when she left.
First of all, I commend Zoltan for trying to reach out to our Catholic brothers who oppose the Archbishop and the NCW. Because Zoltan has attended the CCOG meeting in Agat, we now have an idea of what their meeting is really about. It is simply a spreading of false rumors.
1. They are spreading the false rumor that the removal of Father Paul had to do with the NCW, and Tim Rohr points to his own book as his evidence.....a book written by him.....the spreader of false gossip to begin with. There is no evidence that the NCW had anything to do with Father Paul's removal. The only real evidence comes from a document naming Joseph Lastimosa as the reason for his removal.
2. They still talk about the seminary. The Archbishop already said that the title of the RM seminary is under the Archdiocese of Agana. Why they continue to speak about it is beyond me. If they do not believe that the RM Seminary is under the Archdiocese of Agana, that is not the Archbishop's problem.
3. Nowhere in the NCW is it taught that Jesus was a sinner. That is a false rumor spread by Tim Rohr and Chuck White. The Archbishop told the parishioners in Toto that Jesus was not a sinner. Zoltan tried telling those at the CCOG meeting that he does not believe that Jesus was a sinner and that is never taught in the NCW. I have also never heard the NCW teach that Jesus was a sinner. Everyone in the NCW can testify that nowhere in the NCW is it ever taught that Jesus was a sinner. Furthermore, the jungle is also spreading the false rumor that the NCW does not believe in the Holy Trinity. The fact that we make the sign of the cross and say "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" is evidence that we believe in the Holy Trinity.
4. The auditor of Deloitte & Touche LLP together with Deacon Kim has visited every parish, telling them that the parish financial report should be published either every month or every week. It is hypocritical of CCOG to demand transparency on where the Sunday collections are going when all one needed to do was pick up their parish bulletin. If CCOG is encouraging people to give money to the priests, are these monies being audited? And if CCOG is collecting money from its members to be used for a certain purpose, are they being audited?
5. To say that a presbyter is not a priest shows ignorance. The Latin word "priest" comes from the word "presbyter". Someone needs to remind CCOG that Pope Francis ordained 13 men from the RM seminary into the priesthood. Also, Zoltan is correct about St. Patrick. Saint Patrick's Day was made an official Christian feast day in the early 17th century and is observed by the Catholic Church, especially in Ireland.
6. CCOG brings up this "war" against the Archbishop and the NCW simply because they never desired reconciliation in the first place. The following statement was made in the jungle by Thomas Tanaka, who is a member of CCOG.
" We have said that peace can prevail by having RMS property returned, and the seminary for the Way closed. We want all parishes under Neo control returned to non-neo priests and for the Neo’s to open up their own place of worship apart from ours."
It must be nice to go to a public gathering and be able to ask questions. When I attended the catechesis of the NCW I was shut down immediately when I asked a question. I was then accused of disrupting the event (I asked one simple questiion only), and was told that I could speak to the catechists afterwards and could ask questions then. So after the conclusion of the evening I approached the catechist who literally ran away from me saying they didn't have time, and basically I never had a chance to ask a single further question.
ReplyDeleteNot only that, but a couple of days later, I was visited by the NCW "presbyter" who begged me to be quiet if I was intending to attend the rest of the catechesis (remember I asked one question only), and so I asked him if it would be ok if I spoke to him about my questions instead - a Catholic man speaking to a Catholic priest. He refused, saying only that if I wished, he could arrange a time where I could speak to the catechists on my own.
Dear Anonymous at 2:37 pm,
DeleteI do not know what catechesis you went to, but when I went to the catechesis twice, no one even asked a question. However, I do remember a person disrupting the catechesis by telling the catechist that he disagreed with him. It was the priest who stood up to clarify what the catechist was actually saying due to the language barrier. Exactly what was the question that you asked???
Diana at July 25 4:49PM--
DeleteI seem to remember you giving someone a hard time when he/she commented about the Presbyters being hard to understand when giving homilies. Now you say here that a priest had to clarify the catechist due to the language barrier. The Presbyters they referred to are also ESL (Eng as Second Lang). So now do you see how they probably had a point? Yet, you dismissed that person's point -- simply because YOU didn't have a problem understanding.
Dear Anonymous at 8:50 pm,
DeleteThe priests who have been ordained have learned English quite well that any English speaker can understand them. Some seminarians, on the other hand, are still in the process of learning English. It took me some time to understand what a seminarian was saying to me because he could not speak English very well. After two years, he has made much progress that many of the brothers were able to communicate with him without much problem.
At that catechesis, it was a seminarian who was doing the catechesis. He said something that someone in the audience disagreed with. So, the RMS priest had to intervened and clarify because as it turned out, both the seminarian and the person in the audience were both correct.
Thank you, Anonymous at 8:50 PM---I was thinking the same thing!
DeleteDiana at 8:02 -- you say "any English speaker can understand them". I beg to differ. I can't understand them, my mother can't understand them, and from the comments I hear after Mass there are others like us. And I assure you, we are English speakers.
Maybe it's because you are exposed to them frequently and you are used to the accent? There are many of us who are not, so please don't discount what is said. Maybe you can help them with a speech class? Anything to help is better.
Dear Anonymous at 9:11 am,
DeleteIf I can learn to understand them even with their accent, in time you can too. People all come from different cultures and have different languages and accents. The beauty about World Youth Day is that our youth who participate in these events eventually come to understand and appreciate cultural differences even more. Rather than criticizing them, we should help them become better in the English language. And they can even teach us their language. Our youth who are heading to Poland next year are beginning to learn some polish words and even sing in the Polish language, preparing themselves for WYD.
I wonder, are they taking a course on Chamorro language and culture as part of their studies? Is English one of their subjects? Seems to me they should be learning about us and adapting to our culture rather than us learning their language.
DeleteI applaud the youth for learning some Polish words and songs---that's as it should be. After all, we are going to their country and it is just a matter of respect. Congratulations for that!
I am confused again. Why did Zoltan go to the CCOG meeting? Is he a CCOG member? How could he be if he is also a neo member? The questions:
Delete1. Have you heard of this book, Target = Priest about Fr. Paul Gofigan of Dededo? It is a free giveaway at every CCOG meeting. I have a copy for me too. You should read this book Zoltan. You find all evidence. There was this lady Patricia who hit the desk with fist when she met Fr Gofigan. Then he was fired. Why? Is this not an evidence? Is she not a neo member? You have to put together the jigsaw puzzle.
2. If this was answered, why don't you just accept it, dear Zoltan? The financial council was not fired because they wanted to sell the seminary. They did not have authority to do that. They were fired for other reason.
3. It is not just an opinion if Jesus was a sinner or not. There is Bible evidence that he was not! In the Gospels you read the Son and the Father are one. If Jesus is a sinner, then the Father would be also? Come on! This does not make sense, dear Zoltan.
4. Mass time collections were suspended in many churches. I mean people don't put many in the collection basket. Did not you know this, Zoltan? However, the parish needs money. So why don't give the money directly to the priest and Greg Perez suggested? He could spend it as needed for the parish. What is wrong with that?
5. Presbyters have their education at RMS apart from the regular priests. Regular priests study in Catholic seminaries and are consecrated after graduation. Afterwards they work in parishes. Presbyters don't do that. They are missionaries. That is why RMS is different from the John-Paul 2 seminary. Therefore presbyters are not real priests whatever you say, dear Zoltan
6. The devil is in the details, as in the saying. If the neo has a lot of details, the devil can be there. Is this not consequential, dear Zoltan? That is why you have to fight it back with prayer and fire. Greg Perez knows well how to fight the devil, he is the CCOG president. Get your education right, please!
I am also confused about the fund raising. Is this illegal? What is your problem, Zoltan, with fund raising? CCOG needs money for the lawyer and they collect it from the people at CCOG meetings. What is wrong with that? Maybe the confusion is not on my part, but on yours.
Joane Santos
Anybody, even the most devout neos, can attend the CCOG meetings and ask questions. Can the same be said about the neo catechesis? Can anybody walk in to a catechesis and ask questions about what is being said? Just wondering.
DeleteBTW: Zoltan's account of what happened to him is different from what I have heard from others who attended.
Dear Anonymous at 12:52 pm,
DeleteOn the contrary. Zoltan's experience at the CCOG meeting was consistent with what happened to another NCW member who also went to a CCOG meeting. According to the jungle dated March 6, 2015:
"So at last night's CCOG village meeting in Agana, a representative from the neo-controlled Cathedral showed up, apparently to set us all straight. However, the attendees essentially kicked him out of the meeting before he could get around to it. Let me tell you why. It wasn't because he presented facts that the attendees did not agree with. In fact, he never got around to those "facts" - if he had them. The reason he was unceremoniously dismissed from the meeting - not by me - but by the attendees, is because he began his comments by insulting his hearers."
http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/03/true-that.html
Unfortunately, we only have the jungle side to hear from. We do not know the who that NCW member was nor his story as to what happened. It appears that whenever an NCW member appears at the CCOG meeting, the jungle has only negative reports of the NCW member.
On the other hand, if a person attends a catechesis the NCW does not say anything negative about them. The only thing you can claim is that you are not allowed to ask questions, but nothing bad or vulgar is said to you.
Dear Anonymous at 11:23 am,
DeleteYou ask: "I wonder, are they taking a course on Chamorro language and culture as part of their studies? Is English one of their subjects?"
Yes, the seminarians are learning the Chamorro language and culture. The seminarians are placed in a community, and the brothers in the communities have taken the seminarians out to the beach, hiking, to fiestas, and other places so they can learn and interact with the people of Guam.
@Anon 11:23 am, I heard from someone that Father Santiago was able to say Mass in Chamorro when he was here. Some of them are learning some Chamorro words, but English is essential cuz most people use English nowadays.
DeleteDear Joane Santos,
Delete1. Father Paul was removed due to disobedience. He was told to remove Lastimosa in 2011. Lastimosa was still doing the same duties as he had always been doing, so in 2013, Father Paul was removed. It never had anything to do with the NCW. If the Archbishop really wanted the NCW in the Dededo Parish, he would simply remove Father Paul from the Dededo Parish the day AFTER Patricia Cottman banged her fist on the table.
2. The finance board was removed because OBVIOUSLY their best interest was not in the Church due to the fact that they wanted to sell the seminary. The fact that they were unable to sell the seminary is irrelevant. A finance council is supposed to be a good advisor looking out for the best interest of the Church. Advocating for the selling of the seminary is NOT in the best interest of the Church.
As for the rest, I already covered that.
Dear Joane, please read the answers for your question by Diana. I only give a few more words.
Delete1. Hitting a desk with fist is a sign of emotion. It is no proof that it was related any any way to the much later firing of Fr. Paul by the Archbishop. Where is the evidence?
By the way, I have my own copy of "Target = Priest" from the Agat meeting. It has NO AUTHOR'S NAME printed on it and no publisher's information at all. Another way to say this that this book was written by an anonymous coward who was so afraid of the repercussions that he did not reveal his identity!
2. For a yes/no question you answer yes or no.
3. When I told at the meeting that the Virgin Mary was born without sin, therefore his son Jesus could not have sin either, I received hand clapping and loud expressions of agreement from the audience. It was a bright moment of Christian spirit unifying all believers present. We should hold onto this spirit. It is not true that people got offended because I referred to this Catholic truth.
4. Donation to the priest in envelope, outside of the collection basket, is not transparent and not accounted for.
5. You are wrong, Joane. Presbyter is just another name for priest.
6. Yes, devil is in the details, that is why I am compelled to give more and more details about a CCoG meeting I had experienced personally. People should see what is going on at these meetings.
Fund raising is not illegal. CCoG may give the lawyers as much money, they collect at the villages from the poor, as they want. But how will they explain to them later that their money was wasted on vanity?
Okay, Tim found an old comment from sometime last year where I made a typo writing "businessist" following the pattern of "uniformist" instead of the correct "business". Big deal! ;) Typos are coming and going but true messages live forever!
DeleteJungleWatch folks are showing again that despite their spiteful tactics, they were unable to make any progress during the last 12 months. My opinion piece is a clear evidence. People may howl with the wolves at CCoG gatherings because of fear of public humiliation, but when they go home and simmer down, their hearts are telling them a different story about a loving Jesus who is out there shining in brilliant white to embrace his flock with love and brotherhood.
Thanks to Tim for reminding people of the truth expressed over a year ago and, truly, every day whenever a Bible is opened and the Gospels is read, rather than giving your emotions to useless and improductive hatred.
Now this IS interesting! Tim is attacking and ridiculing the Pope, while pretending he fights with me. Lol! The word of contention was invented and used by Pope Francis! Read this:
Delete"Pope Francis reflected on the day's Gospel reading, John 17:20-26, and Jesus' prayer that there would be unity, not divisions and conflict, among his disciples. There are three groups of people who call themselves Catholic, but are not really, the pope said. Apologizing for making up words, he labeled the three groups: "uniformists," "alternativists" and "businessists.""
http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-half-hearted-catholics-arent-really-catholics-all
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteThank you for the information. I will use this in my next entry post.
So Zoltan: first you claim "businessist" was just a typo, then you trot out something the Pope said. What is it? Was "businessist" just a typo on your part? or were you using the same word as the Pope?
DeleteDid you promise Vangie that you would publish her request? or did you tell her you couldn't help her?
Make up your mind!
The word' businessist' was not and is not my word. As for me, I would have used the word business without the 'ist'. I cannot recall any widely accepted definition of its meaning.
DeleteThe only actual meaning I know comes from a speech of Pope Francis who invented this word specifically for his speech. I reflected on his speech over a year ago, so I borrowed his vocabulary. Of course, he invented this word in Latin and not in English, this is just a close translation. Just ask me again if you need some linguistic explanation of English words.
Even better, open up a dictionary. Lol!
Dear Zoltan, then come please to the CCOG meeting and explain the heresy I read about. Heresy is really confusing, because you say Jesus is not a sinner. I agree with you, so where is the heresy? It is very confusing for me. I took classes and educate myself on the Internet, still not easy to get it what people say.
DeleteSo please come and explain it to everyone that on the painting of Kiko the faith instructor there is only one star rather than three. Chuck White at the Junglewatch says it is because you don't believe in Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is three stars and the painting only has one star! Why? Please, come and explain why is this heresy because I don't get it. Actually, what is heresy and why do you confess it? Paint as many stars as you wish but please do not so heresy. Thanks!
Joane Santos
Dear Joane Santos,
DeleteDid it ever occur to you that the reason there is only one start rather than three is because there is only ONE God? We believe that there are three persons in ONE God.
Diana at July 27th, 9:59 pm,
DeleteTim refuted your first statement to Joane Santos. What do you have to say about that?
"In 2011, Apuron ordered Fr. Paul to terminate the employment of Mr. Lastimoza. When Fr. Paul was called in two years later he was accused of disobeying an order:
"You disobeyed the direct order given by the Vicar General" are Apuron's exact words in his July 16, 2013 letter to Fr. Paul.
When Fr. Paul produced the evidence that he had obeyed the "order given by the Vicar General", Apuron changed the charge to "refusing to terminate the de facto employment" of Mr. Lastimoza. (Decree of Removal. August 20, 2013. Prot. No. 013-074)"
Dear Anonymous at 9:46 pm,
DeleteYou can read my response on the following weblink:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-truth-about-father-pauls-removal.html
Dear Joane, I do not need to go to any CCoG meeting anymore to know what is going on there. It is the same old business of the same few people who cannot distinguish fact from speculation, who invent superstition to justify their delusion. What do they think to achieve?
DeleteYou claim it is a heresy to paint a picture with one star rather than three. Have you ever heard of artistic freedom? You also say "paint as many stars as you wish". So I can see your confusion. A painting is not a theological statement and whatever it depicts, it has no bearing to the Catechism of the Catholic Church that we experience with our whole lives in community setting.
Do you want to know what heresy is? Well, what heresy is among Christians is to deny that Jesus is love! This love had already existed before the creation. Jesus as God is the source of all love on Earth and in the universe. Those who want to take out this love from the universe are the heretics. Those who teach that Jesus is not love but hatred are the heretics. Those who feel free to hate their sisters and brothers are stir hatred against them are the heretics.
I surely hope I could ease your confusion somewhat, dear Joane.
her·e·sy
Deleteˈherəsē/
noun
noun: heresy; plural noun: heresies
belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
Tim Rohr nothing but a poison in Guam
ReplyDeleteWhat is really frightening is the advanced technique and psychological mechanism CCoG operatives employ to stir hatred and demonize people at these meetings for fund raising purposes. We read a lot about violence, even murder, in the mainland by people who believe those who demonize others. Tell me, who is really responsible, those who pull the trigger or those who demonize others?
DeleteWell, by reason of group dynamics, these haters can only succeed if nobody counters them at the spot. They must be exposed as riding on other people's emotions in order to raise funds for personal gain. Now, they need money to pay attorneys so that they can bring lawsuit against the church. But their manipulations are so transparent. The audience is always willing to hear the opposite side, as well, if there is somebody there to present the opposing views. Then, hatred becomes an option among many others and eventually will die out. No sane people choose hatred when there are other choices.
Zoltan, I don't see the hatred in what you say. You were challenged by the audience, because you went there to challenge and be challenged. Was it not your reason? However I agree with you that demonizing other people is dangerous. It is like a revolutionary language. I know that some in the CCOG want to provoke uprising against the establishment. Tim Rohr and the CCOG radicals read and follow Saul Alinsky's book about how to erupt turmoil. It was discussed at JW a while ago. That is why moderate voices are not allowed at the present time at JW. I have advocated trust building and good faith toward NCW, but this is now a minority view inside CCOG. I said the same here with no avail. What is for sure, changes are badly needed in the diocese in order that everybody could coexist in peace.
DeleteDear grow up in faith, the hate business is a tricky one, you may get easily hooked up and get addicted. Scientists say the hormone oxytocin plays a vital role in the brain's chemistry. When you hate, mophins free up in your brain and you feel good. It is the reason you may get addicted easily. But the interesting part is that the same hormone promotes love as well! Read this: http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=11855
DeleteSo it is your choice if you turn your oxytocin supply in your blood into hate or love. Those who are hooked up on hatred made their choices already. They just need hatred in their lives. Jesus teaches us that hooked up on love is better. He let the sinful woman go free from those haters who wanted to stone her. He told her go and sin no more. Hate is death and love is life. If you don't believe Jesus, then you don't believe anyone else of good will.
Please read this from http://www.healthboards.com/boards/addiction-recovery/9764-when-your-hatred-destroying-you.html
DeleteWhen we hate it's not because somebody did something, it's because we are FEELING hate about what they did. I'm not saying to stop the hatred or get rid of it. Allow yourself to continue to hate (it's too exhausting to try and stop yourself from any emotion anyway). But, while you continue your hatred try this: find a couple or maybe just ONE quality about the person you hate in which you can say they are a good person for this one quality. Zero in on it and tell yourself how much you admire the quality. Remind yourself (even if it KILLS you) that God doesn't love this person any less than He loves you.
What will this do? By focusing on even one quality that you admire, your brain will be, in effect, brainwashed into thinking that this person is NOT someone to hate (how can we possibly hate someone when we find something about them we admire or like?). Then, whenever you are tempted to think about why you hate this person, your brain will remember why you like them too! This will almost negate your hate for them. It will perhaps allow yourself to automatically purge the obsessive hate over the person.
This is hilarious!
DeleteTarget = Priest?
Author = Anonymous Coward!
Geee, I just can't stop laughing...
im sorry but im a neo and was just told about this site by another neo member. now I believe that what im being taught by walking the way is different from what I see here.... omg if this is what walking the way means then, I feel so bad...I mean this is just??? how can you teach hope faith and love and act like this??? count me out...
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:24 pm,
DeleteI do not know where you get the idea that those walking in the Way are already holy saints. Are you a holy saint??? Being a neo does not mean that you no longer sin or that you are a holy saint. You will certainly find people in the Way making judgments and still committing sins. As a matter of fact, even the Apostles were sinners. Do you actually believe that you act better than any of us?
It is obvious that CCOG cannot handle the truth. It stings them to the bone. So, in order to alleviate the sting they heap lie upon lie to cover us the cancerous wound of their hatred.
ReplyDeleteSInce they are haters, they crave attention. For them hatred is not an option, its a force that goes against reason, christian doctrine and common sense. As a force of destruction, their goal is to destroy the faith. So, they combine hatred, calumnies, false accusations, a scape-goat to heap their attacks and then a good dose of narcissism and self centered aggrandizement (Rohr), then you have a perfect mix of something of K.K.K., the SKINHEADS, Neo-Nazi Groups. We can label then the KONCERNED-KATHOLIC-KNUCKLEHADS.
Dear Anonymous at 5:16--
DeleteYour whole description of CCOG is much like what they say about Neos. As an Espiscapalian who is intrigued by all this in-fighting amongst the Catholics, I see this more and more in both blogs.
Diana, how do you propose to solve this? Or rather, how do you think this will all be resolved? I think I know how the Jungle folk want it to be resolved....
Dear Anonymous at 8:43 pm,
DeleteSince the first century, there has always been a lot of infighting. Even the Apostles did not always agree with each other. St. Paul and St. Barnabas disagreed with each other over a minor thing and went their separate ways and reconciled with one another at a later date. Even now, there are still Catholics who disagree with each other. The Jesuits, Franciscans, and many others were persecuted by fellow Catholics. The Holy Spirit comes with many different gifts, and sometimes some Catholics do not recognize those gifts. It takes time for some Catholics to accept their fellow Catholics whose charisms were from the Holy Spirit.
Both sides are not perfect. As you can see, even those who are in the NCW can have anger in them. That is normal. Our walk is to imitate Christ. For many of us, our walk has been a struggle while a few others may have achieved it quite well with the grace of God.
if you proclaim yourself as Catholic yet have not read; acknowledged; follow the Word of God in MATTHEW Chapt: 5-6 and 7; the conflict within will never cease.
DeleteThe issue is not the Church but the person. We make the Church the cause of our anxiety because it is easier to make excuses why we cannot follow Jesus Christ than face the reality.
JSB
Sorry Zoltan but your "more detailed account of what exactly happened … at the CCoG meeting" sounds oddly like the gossip, hearsay and superstition that you accuse Tim Rohr and others of spreading. You claim that Greg Perez overrode Vangie Lujan's willingness to let you speak again. But that couldn't have happened because Greg Perez is in Hawaii.
ReplyDeleteThere are people who said they saw you at the Agat meeting, BUT they also said that Greg Perez was not there. So just how is it that you saw Greg Perez while others didn't???
What what did you say?
DeleteI do not think Zoltan knows who Greg Perez is and may have mistakenly thought that the person who overrode Vangie Lujan may have been him.
My apologies to Mr. Perez. I mistook him for the chairman of the meeting, assuming he was there. It was completely my fault. Whatever I said about Mr. Perez, does not apply to him but to the chairman of the meeting. I would be glad to meet Mr. Perez and clear the misunderstanding in person, if he wishes to. Thanks.
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteYou did not say anything bad about the person whom you mistakenly thought was Mr. Perez. You did not even say anything bad about Vangie Lujan. I find it interesting that the only thing the jungle have is to belittle you for mistaking someone for Mr. Perez. You must have really gotten under Tim Rohr's skin if that was all he had to say. :-)
Diana, look at what Timmy said. LOL!!!! He wants to see the Catechetical Directory as proof whether the NCW teaches whether Jesus is a sinner or not. LOL!!!! :
DeleteTim RohrJuly 27, 2015 at 3:31 PM
Dear Zoltan, despite your inflammatory rhetoric and your accusations against the CCOG of hatred, demonization, and even inciting people to violence and murder, you are still welcome at the CCOG meetings and we will gladly let you speak as long as the crowd is willing to let you talk. Just one suggestion. The CCOG substantiates its accusations with original source documents and recordings. Try to do the same. You say that the NCW has no teaching that Jesus is a Sinner. Fine. Please bring a copy of your catechetical directory and show us that there is no such teaching. See you Thursday at Barrigada community center, 6pm.
Dear Anonymous at 6:43 am,
DeleteOh.....now that is so funny!! We all know that the Catechetical Directory does not contain any such teaching. That is a 100% for sure. I am surprise that Tim Rohr said that. Did he forget that the Catechetical Directory was APPROVED by Rome???? There is nothing in the Catechetical Directory saying that Jesus is a sinner..........unless of course Tim actually thinks that the Pope teaches that Jesus was a sinner. :-)
Even if u give Tim the catechetical directory, he will invent another story. He will say that the Way isn't following their catechetical directory. Zoltan explained to them that the Way doesn't teach that Jesus was a sinner. Archbishop Apuron said the same thing to the parishioners at Toto Church, and they want to see the directory? If the testimonies of the Archbishop and Zoltan is not good enough to assure CCOG that the Way doesn't resort to that teaching, then any decent dialogue with them is useless. Praise The Lord that CCOG and Rohr's followers consist of only a very few people.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:56 AM--
DeleteYou really believe that CCoG and Rohr's followers consist of only a very few people? Think again....
We hear from the most vocal ones, but there are hundreds more who read the blog and talk amongst themselves. If you would step away from your community for a bit and listen to what non-Neos (and not necessarily Rohr followers) are saying, you will find that there are many, many more than just a few who are not happy with NCW.
Continue your walk, but with open eyes and ears.
Dear Anonymous at 8:10 am,
DeleteI agree with Anonymous 7:56 am. CCOG and Tim Rohr's followers are very few. You can see it in their following comments in the jungle and in their frustration over Rome's silence and inaction:
JR San AgustinJuly 26, 2015 at 12:33 PM
I read this story about a year ago regarding this bishop in Germany who was "canned" by Pope Francis for squandering the wealth ("patrimony") of his diocese by building himself an elaborate ($7M) mansion. After investigation, he was finally shanghaied by Rome to to some obscure Roman Curia. Now the diocese is after his a.... for recovery of goods! Read about the whole story in the link below: (Copy and paste to your browser, if it doesn't open by itself)>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bishop-of-bling-bankruptcy_55b2b942e4b0224d8832643e
And here we have an Archbishop (AAA) who - along with scores of evil things he has done to the archdiocese - has stolen and given away $40M-$60M worth of our church patrimony - and Rome hasn't yet as much as given him a slap on the wrist - or so it appears!
What the h....!!! WHERE IS JUSTICE, ROME!
I guess, like Nero, Rome will fiddle while Guam burns!!!
PEOPLE OF GUAM, UNLESS WE RISE UP AS A UNITED GROUP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, THE CHURCH STRUCTURE IN GUAM (and I don't necessarily mean just the physical building alone, but the faith, liturgy, and practices of our Church as well) AS YOU KNOW IT. IT WILL BECOME FULLY NEO - THERE WILL BE NO ONE, HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. The Neo Faith will be IMPOSED UPON US - And please don't anybody complain then! BLAME OURSELVES - NOW!
Tim RohrJuly 26, 2015 at 1:28 PM
In the German case Rome only acted because the people rose up. No one rising up here yet.
They can continue their small village meetings. Thanks to Zoltan, we now know these small village meetings are nothing more than a gossip gathering. In the two years since Father Paul was removed, they have accomplished absolutely nothing. They can brag about the number of page views........but guess what. Those page views were not able to reinstate Father Paul or Monsignor James. Their millions of viewers were not able to remove the Archbishop. Therefore, they have accomplished absolutely nothing in the last two years.
Dear Diana,
DeleteI agree to a point. They have not accomplished those specific things, but what they have accomplished is growing the awareness of the problems that exist in Guam Catholic Church. NCW existed on Guam for over 10 years (?) and most people were not particularly knowledgeable of what was going on. They just accepted that there were changes. Now though, there are details that have been brought to the forefront (as erroneous as some may be). Now, people are fighting back.
So in that respect, I think they've accomplished much!
This has all resulted in something else--I hear of more and more Catholics really studying their religion to be able to decide which side they will support. And to me THAT is the best thing to come out of all of this!
Dear Anonymous at 9:23 am,
DeleteI disagree with some things you said. You say that people are fighting back. How? By writing their letters of complaints to Rome, and what has that got them so far? Absolutely nothing! And they are fully aware of it. This is why the jungle voiced so much frustrations on Rome's silence and inaction. The question is....how many letters will it take them to realize that Rome's inaction is their message to them saying that they are on the wrong side.
However, I do agree with you that studying your religion is a good thing. With that said, their study would be more beneficial if it was done with a priest present, so the priest is able to offer his help when the lay person does not understand something during the course of his/her studies.
Dear Diana,
DeleteThere are those that believe that Rome will not act---at least not in the manner in which some would want. My aunt in Agana Hgts says if they can prevent Neos from "taking over their church", then their battle is won. That is how they are fighting back. Diana, you know they are doing more than just writing letters, and it has slowed the momentum of growth that NCW had enjoyed three years ago.
Dear Anonymous at 10:35 am,
DeleteExactly how do they intend to get "their" church back or prevent the NCW from taking over when in the first place it was never their Church? The Church belongs to Christ. Do you not know that the Pope intervened when the Bishops in Japan tried to oust the NCW from their country. The Pope recognize the NCW as Catholic; therefore, there is no such thing as the NCW take over.
What are their plans? Do they plan to storm the Archdiocese like they did in the French Revolution? Is this what they mean by "talking war" during the CCOG meeting?
Diana @6:49, do you have a copy of the catechetical directory? People have been wanting to see it. They want to compare it to the CCC but they've been told only catechists are allowed to have them. Regular members cannot even look at them (or so they've been told). Is that just gossip or hearsay?
DeleteIs the catechetical directory available for members to take home and study? Very cool!
If I come to a catechesis will I be able to get a copy?
Diana @ 9:34, you say "This is why the jungle voiced so much frustrations on Rome's silence and inaction." Usually when you and others talk about "the jungle" you're really referring to Tim Rohr.
DeleteAs far as I can see it's not Tim Rohr who is voicing "so much frustration" about "Rome's silence and inaction." It's the commenters. Tim Rohr has told them that what is going on is nothing new. He says that Rome has always moved slowly. So he's not the one who has "so much frustration." If he includes things that can be read as "so much frustration" in his post it's usually because he is referring to the comments.
You need to be able to distinguish between what Tim Rohr writes in his posts and what the commenters write if you want to refer to Tim Rohr as "the jungle."
Dear Anonymous at 1:16 pm,
DeleteThe weblink below was posted by Tim Rohr himself. He titled his entry post " Rome fiddled while Agana burns.
http://www.junglewatch.info/2015/03/rome-fiddled-while-agana-burned-its-too.html
This sounds like a voice of frustration. Furthermore, you can see that in some of his latest entry posts, Tim Rohr has been calling on Rome's attention.
There is a sense among Junglewatch radicals that Pope Francis and Vatican are not doing their job. They want to force church officials to act. They say the only way to get Vatican to act is to do by themselves what Vatican is supposed to do here in Guam. This means a revolution or uprisal right here at the local level! They want to provoke people until an uprisal is broken out. They view the Pope as a puppet in the hands of Vatican liberals.They mock him as a leftist. Tim Rohr is advocating Saul Alinsky's book "Rules for Radicals". This is really sad. I feel CCoG should change direction towards the moderates genuinely looking for a common ground and peaceful coexistence.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:10 pm,
DeleteYou can order your copy at Amazon.com.
Dear grow up, where does Tim Rohr advocate Alinsky's book "Rules for Radicals"? Please post a reference
DeleteI agree 10:35 AM. JW has stirred up so much awareness that it has slowed down if not stopped the NCW's momentum in taking over. Success is that the sleeping giant has been awoken! If it weren't for JW, Santa Barbara Church in Dededo would have already been converted.
DeleteI just checked Amazon for the catechetical directory and it's out of print/limited availability. Good one Diana!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:35 pm,
DeleteI disagree. Father Paul was removed on July 16, 2013 and Father Bien replaced Father Paul the very next day on July 17th. The Archbishop could have assigned an RMS priest to the Dededo Parish, but he didn't. The jungle had nothing to do with that choice.
Dear Anonymous July 28, 2015 at 9:23 PM, here are the rules of Alinsky. Please, decide for yourself if these are followed at JW or not:
DeleteRule of pressure: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance.
Rule of bubble: “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.” Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist.
Rule of target: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.
Rule of laugh: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
Rule of fun: “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more.
Rule of drag: “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.” Don’t become old news.
http://www.bestofbeck.com/wp/activism/saul-alinskys-12-rules-for-radicals
ReplyDeleteJW more than Tim Rohr. Cross sectional of population who are committed to restoring peace dignity integrity into our community. At least 250 people signing their names JW. Thousands Anons commenting. Only anon because Anons feel thy be victimized if sign names.
I can make 10,000 comments on this site; signing as anons each time but I would still be 01.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think jw commenters signing as anon are real? for all we know it might be rohr agreeing with himself and signing as anon.
ANON
7:39 PM I believe that!!!
ReplyDelete2nd hand information is hardly a benchmark for truth but in the recent ccog meeting in Agat where Zolton was mugged; timmy rohr spoke for nearly 1 hour.
DeleteWhat is really funny is that when rohr got the signal to sit down; the meeting from then on went from downhill.
No real issues were discussed or clarified; and it appears that the only thing accomplished by this meeting was to raise hysteria.
if another ccog meeting is scheduled; please pass the word.