Marriage Catechumenate?
The Neocatechumenal Way has an excellent record of saving marriages. We often hear some of the brothers express how their marriage or the marriage of their parents were saved by Christ while walking in the Way. Even "anti-Neo" websites such as those written by Sandro Magister admit that the Neocatechumenal Way has outstandingly emulated Christian marriages. ,According to his article:
In reality, what most distinguishes the Way from other ecclesial movements and from the faithful as a whole is the centrality of the family in it, theorized and lived in perfect obedience to the magisterium of the Church of all times but in particular of the most recent popes, including that encyclical “Humanae Vitae” which is ignored and disobeyed by almost all Catholics with the general complicity of the clergy, but certainly not by the Neocatechumenals, in view of their generous fecundity.
It is no surprise, therefore, that in 2009 the pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family should have awarded Kiko, the founder of the Way, with a doctorate “honoris causa” precisely for his efforts in support of Christian marriage.
Many of the families in the Way are open to life; therefore, it is not surprising to find couples with six or more children. Families pray together and spend time together. In the Way, the couples are always seen as one individual. At the Synod, a "marriage catechumenate" was brought up several times. Many bishops realize that the current marriage preparation is not enough. According to the National Catholic Register:
“Marriage catechumenate” is not a technical term. The “catechumenate” is technically a period of formation in the Christian faith for those approaching baptism.
But the concept of a post-baptismal catechumen experience of ongoing catechesis is a reality lived by Catholics who belong to the Neocatechumenal Way.
“It has helped me live out my marriage in a Christian way,” said Andrew Malone, a married father of eight who is part of a “Neocat” community at St. Benedict Joseph Labre parish in Queens, N.Y. While the Neocatechumenal Way has no formal marriage-preparation program, its catechumen-like catechesis involves two key important elements: sound, ongoing formation in the faith and a supportive community at every step of a person’s journey deeper into the faith, so he or she does not get lost or discouraged.
“It’s a lifetime apprenticeship,” said Malone, pointing out that many members in this context grow from “an infantile faith to a more mature faith that is trying to deal with all the difficulties of life.”
The Way is only one organization that has brought families together and has strengthened marriages. It has also inspired vocations into the priesthood and religious life. Men were inspired to enter the seminary to become priests, and women were also inspired to enter the convent to become nuns. Another remarkable thing in the Way are the mission families who have been inspired to evangelize as a family. So, families in the Way stay together by praying together, spending time together, and even evangelizing together as a family.
Please forgive me in advance for not staying on the OP but I have a question.
ReplyDeleteDid the CCOG folks ever get permission of the Ordinary at the time of their incorporation to use "Catholics" in their registered organization name, Concerned CATHOLICS of Guam?
To use the word Catholic, there is a Canon Law that controls this and if they did so without the permission of the Ordinary at the time of their inception, then they are in violation.
This bothers me, because their name implies that they represent all Catholics of Guam, and that is not true. Many if not all of the time, I do not share their views and sentiments.
Also, How does the jungle know that the NCW has not turned over a copy of the Catechetical Directory? If this is true then they must have a special relationship with Byrnes or Deacon Steve needs to be given another gag order. Whoever is releasing this info to the jungle should be reprimanded, it is causing much scandal.
Wake up Byrnes!
Dear Roma2018,
DeleteNo, CCOG never obtained permission to use the name “Catholic” at the time of their incorporation. And no, I have no idea where Rohr is getting his information. As most people already know, Tim Rohr has a copy of Cardinal Filoni’s letter that was addressed solely to Archbishop Byrnes. That letter was published in Rohr’s blog. I see only two possible conclusions on this:
1. The letter was stolen and given to Rohr to be published in his blog or
2. Archbishop Byrnes gave Rohr the letter to be published in his blog.
Tim said he got the letter from one of the Neo priests.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:41 pm,
DeleteNone of the RMS priests had that letter or even a copy of it.
Dear anonymous at 6:41
DeleteAnd you believe that and no he didn’t get it from a neo priest he’s just trying to protect Byrnes because look at what he says that Byrnes wanted to work with us in the way and we know that’s not even true because Byrnes never wanted to work with us only with ccog and Timmy and lfm because when we had our last st.patricks day at the seminary who did the celebrating not Byrnes but fr.julio so don’t you dare say that he got it from a neo priest
Dear God is one,
DeleteHe is protecting either Archbishop Byrnes or the person who stole the letter and made a copy for Tim Rohr.
Great op. It is unfortunate that seeing so many fruits the enemies of the NCW still want to change it to their whim. They don't seem to understand that every aspect of the NCW is essential for the formation into adult Christianhood.
ReplyDeleteMuch like liberals in america want to destroy the Judeo-Christian morals that have created western society assuming the structure will hold after destroying the columns. These people want to destroy the foundation and assume marriages will still be saved and people will still reach adult christianhood. You can't have one without the other.
The people that hate the NCW are people who never accepted the 2nd Vatican Council, distrust the authority of the Church and have become ideologue activists. They are either followers of groups such as the Fraternity of Lefebvre (fervently believe that a cassock, latin and incense is what changes man's hearts), who accuse most modern movements, including the NCW, of being liberal or are progressive-liberals (those who just want to eradicate society from any Christian influence) that accuse the NCW of being ultra-orthodox. In any case, they are just protestants wearing a Catholic label in word and deeds.
DeleteThe expertise on the family by the NCW has been recognized by the John Paul II Pontifical Institute when received their "Honoris Causa". However, for the enemies of the NCW, this means nothing. However, it would be interested to see how strong and faithful are the marriages of those who accuse us indiscriminately... because Christ himself said it best,
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:15-20 RSV)
Why should marriages be "saved"? From what? Statistics show that among Christians, we Catholics have the most stable marriages. The divorce rate in any other denomination is much higher than among the Catholics.
DeleteDear Critiquer,
DeleteFocus more on the Catholics. If you had, you would see that statistics show that Catholic marriages in Guam have declined from 700 to less than 200. That is a tremendous drop.
The destruction in marriages leads to a breakdown in a stable family. And the breakdown of the family leads to many social sickness in society.
Diana, I cannot see your point. Are you talking about existing or non-existing marriages? What is the number you complain about? Is it the annual number of weddings per year?
DeleteHow is the decline of the number of new marriages related to saving existing marriages? It looks to me that a lower number of weddings means you have fewer marriages to worry about or save.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteIt means that marriage is becoming an endangered species.......excuse the pun. More and more people prefer to live together than marry. And there are also those who marry in court. A court or civil marriage is invalid in the eyes of the church. To save marriages also means to encourage and help those who live together to enter the sacrament of marriage. The same goes with those who marry in court.
Okay, Diana, I thought you were talking about saving existing marriages. Cohabitation and civil marriage is not under the purview of "saving Catholic marriages" because these are not Catholic marriages. The Catholic Church has jurisdiction over Catholic marriages only.
DeleteSo again is my question: why should Catholic marriages to be saved? From what and how?
Dear Critiquer,
DeletePlease read the following Catholic weblink so you can educate yourself on why marriage matters.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/sacraments/marriage/why-marriage-matters
Diana, Catholic marriages are just fine. You would need annulment from Rome for a divorce. Most Catholics don't want to go into that... This is why the divorce rate is so low among us.
DeleteWhat are you exactly talking about when you want to "save Catholic marriages"? Are marriages in the NCW at the brink of collapsing? I am asking you, as you are a member of NCW, and not the Catholic News Agency.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteAccording to KUAM news;
"According to The Economist, in 2014 Guam ranked number one in divorces per 1,000 people. It's an issue that Father Jeff San Nicolas says affects more than husband and wife."
http://www.kuam.com/story/36028422/2017/08/Wednesday/archdiocese-addressing-guams-nation-leading-divorce-rate
Dear curious,
DeleteYou are in denial. According to CNA, While the rate of divorce among Catholics is lower than that of non-Catholics, still almost 30%of Catholic marriages end up in divorce. And that statistic doesn’t take into account that most Catholics do not marry anymore.
That means that for every 100 couples 30 get divorced. 11 million people in the USA. To say that marriage is fine is ignorant. It is like saying that the church is fine while the statistics say that in 5-10 years the Catholic Church in the USA will be virtually non-existent.
If you do not see there is a problem you will never look for a solution. You don’t go to the doctor unless you admit that you are sick. If the Catholics in the church do not see that there is a problem they will never do anything to fix it.
NB
Catholic marriages are just fine? Guam CPS begs to differ as their services to proclaimed Catholic families and children are bursting at the seams....get real.
DeleteCare to guess how many Catholics are in DOC'
How about the Court system?.....family violence.
CRITIQUErrrr......has a fact problem....NONE
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteMarriages in the Catholic Church are on the verge of collapsing. Most people don't even go through divorce they just go with other men/women. So the statistic of 30 percent is not even close to accurate in reporting how many marriages in the Catholic Church are on the verge of collapsing. We know this because we work with people who become members of the NCW who where previous practicing Catholics and whose marriage was on the verge of collapsing.
In my experience giving marriage courses, and counseling even people who seem to be doing well have mutual agreements of respect in which there is no love in the marriage and are only together for the kids.
People whose marriages are on the brink of collapsing are usually don't join faith groups. Most of them don't even go close to a church, because they have their own personal issues. It looks to me that in the NCW you save those who were already saved.
DeleteYou claim to save marriages of people who regularly participate in faith activities. These are the very same people who traditionally live in stable marriages because of their attachment to the church. How do you reach those whose marriages are a mess, who are truly on the brink of great personal and emotional losses?
Dear J. Bautista, I have written a couple comments that Diana did not admit. I think the problem you mention was adequately addressed in those comments. The point is that professional advising in family matters always performs better than sole faith based approaches, because of the expertise of advisors. The two approaches are better go hand in hand, rather than apart from each other.
DeleteDear critiquer,
DeleteYour comments were deleted because you mainly make unfounded accusations against the Way. I prefer that this blog be a forum where issues can be discussed and resolved. This blog also serves to foster better understanding between those who walk in the Way and those who do not walk in the Way so the two can get along.
Dear Diana, I don't make accusations. I am a critiquer. I make critical comments. This is my job. I hope you acknowledge that the two are not the same.
DeleteDiana, you may consider if your policy is too restrictive. The discussion could become one-sided if the other side cannot speak. Silencing someone is not a not way either to foster better understanding.
DeleteCritiquer looks to me a person of inquisitive mind. I don't know if s/he made accusations or not, I did not see it. But it might be true that no answer has been given to the "how" of this OP. How do you actually save marriages in the NCW?
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteIt is not a critique to accuse the NCW of giving the Body of Christ to Catholics who were married in court.it is an accusation. In one of your comments, which I did not publish, you stated:
"According to Sacred Magisterium, serving mortal sinners the Holy Eucharist would be a sacrilegious practice that may not be tolerated! Is the NCW still tolerating this practice?"
Is the NCW STILL tolerating this practice???? Seriously???? You think the NCW gives out the Body of Christ to mortal sinners? Where did you get such information? This is not a critique. This is an accusation.
I don’t think critiquer is Catholic. Given the fact that he believes that psychology can resolve the problem in marriages it means that he doesn’t understand anything of catholic moral or theology. What I don’t understand is why he is writing false accusations about communion if he is not catholic. What does he care?
DeleteDear grow up in faith,
DeleteThe catechumenate helps people to really grow up in faith which means to love like Jesus. If a husband and wife love like Jesus then they can forgive each other and love each other and they need neither psychology nor divorce. That is how the NCW saves marriages.
NB
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteStop creating facts on whim. This is the problem, at least if people who didn't like the way had an open mind they'd learn something. However people like you just want to destroy it and invent facts that fit your narrative.
People who's marriages are breaking are leaving the Catholic Church first? Were did you come up with that fact? That Marriages where already saved in the NCW? Where did you come up with that fact? I've seen with my own 2 eyes as many people here, marriages saved because of acting out the preaching they receive in their own lives. I saw a women who's husband was cheating on her decide to love her enemy because the preaching said this was the truth. She talked to her husband and decided to love him and the husband stop cheating, stop drinking, and go to church faithfully for the first time since he was 13 years old. The wife of this same couple would go to church and receive communion outside the NCW. So really you just want to smear the way, create facts to confuse people who might have an encounter with Christ (for that I hope God makes justice). How does the gospel say. "It is better that a stone be tied to your neck and you be thrown to the sea then to scandalize one of these little ones."
Psychology never saved a marriage. Trust me i know i have friend who are psychiatrist. Modern psychiatry only serves as a form of cathartic release but it doesn't offer any real solution to trauma. Where as Christ has given the solution already.
Dear Diana, I would interpret what critiquer said in a more generous way. You seem to explain too much into one word "still" which could simply mean "despite magisterial instruction". But, of course, it is your blog and you make your decisions as you wish expressing your views. There could be some questions though that you have to answer by a straight yes or no, because whatever else you say won't answer the question.
DeleteDear Grow up in faith,
DeleteYou would interpret anyone who opposes the Way in a generous way. I interpreted it as it is written. In other words, I do not put in "Despite magisterial instruction" simply because that was NEVER written. The fact that Critiquer stated, " Is the NCW STILL tolerating this practice?" implies his/her belief that the NCW had always been giving the Body of Christ to mortal sinners since the beginning. The word "STILL" was written and is an unfounded accusation.
Diana,
DeleteCan you tell whether a person is in a state of mortal sin?
Dear Anonymous at 11:39 am.
DeleteNo of course not. A priest also cannot tell who is in a state of mortal sin UNLESS the person himself/herself reveals their sin. But apparently, Critiquer can, since he was the one who stated, " Is the NCW STILL tolerating this practice?" The NCW never made that a practice. It is taught in the NCW that those who are married in civil court or living with a boyfriend/girlfriend out of wedlock cannot receive the Body of Christ.
Diana, have you read about the controversy over Pope Francis' apostolic letter Amoris Laetitia? It is right on spot of this discussion.
Deletehttps://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-kasper-the-controversy-surrounding-amoris-laetitia-has-come-to-an-end-41887
You may know that one of those who attacked Pope Francis on Amoris Laetitia was Cardinal Edmund Burke (the "Dubia cardinal").
Dear Anonymous at 11:09 am, why should a cheating husband be an enemy? He might have a compulsion to cheat, but his true love is his wife. You say the woman "decided to love her enemy", his husband, but that man was not her enemy in the first place. Enemy are those whom you make your enemy.
DeletePsychology explains how can you have a man who is loving his wife, still cheating on her all the time. Psychology can also tell you why would someone become an alcoholic against his/her own will. Unfortunately, it happens all the time. The same with drugs and drug addicts.
It is society and social services that provide solution to innumerable family problems. Divorce settlements should favor wives who raise the children. They are also entitled to child support by law. Society provides laws to protect the vulnerable.
Jesus is not a role model of love in the family, as he never had a wife or child. He is a role model of love to the Father: love within the Holy Trinity! Love within the Holy Trinity is never a love of the enemy because there are no enemies inside the Holy Trinity!
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteActually, Christ is a bridegroom, and the Church is his bride. He is the best role model of love in the family because he sacrificed his life to save his bride. There is no greater love than this. You put society and social services as something greater than God. In your eyes, Jesus is useless and not a role model of love in the family while society and social services are the ones that provide the solutions to innumerable family problems and the Almighty God is incapable of providing any solutions.
Why do you think God would need to give solution to family problems? He is the Creator, He has already done his job. The solution of the almighty is the one living God himself who is the Holy Trinity. There is no feminin character and no contradiction within the Holy Trinity, it is a perfect unity of a male Father, a male Son and the Holy Ghost. This is the power of creation.
DeleteThe gender of the church cannot be female, as the church fathers pointed out. The analogy of bride and bridegroom for Jesus and the church is a very distant one. It is better than nothing, but not the whole truth. The truth is that the power of procreation was given to the male, who is Adam in all of us. Adam gave name to everyone on earth, above or below it. Eve was the sinner one, please never forget that.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteI do not follow your truth. I follow the truth that the Church teaches. The Church teaches that Mother Mary represents the Church. The Church had always been called the “bride of Christ”. The word bride is used to describe and represent a female. After all, you would not want to call the Church the bridegroom of Christ. 🙄
Dear Critiquer at 2:59
DeleteIf we cannot agree on universal Catholic Doctrine why are you even posting on this blog. Divorce is not a real solution because it is the destruction of the family. You speak as if you had any credentials of knowledge of psychology. Let me educate you a bit.
Psychology states that the well being of a human being in its early development depends on the love between his father and mother. In the way that his parents love each other his existence and meaning comes into being. His life has meaning because he is a product of the love of his parents. This can be seen developmentally. Usually children with parents going through divorce or in irregular marital situations act out in very aggressive violent ways. This causes a situation of low self esteem since he looses the security of knowing why he exists. He is no longer a product of love but that of a failed marriage. On top of that life becomes meaningless at a deep existential level because if his parents cannot love each other then love doesn't exist and if it doesn't exist then why does he exist.
You are very simple minded if you think divorce is the solution. This is an external patch to a much deeper problem rooted in an existential crisis that EVERY MAN HAS. This is church doctrine. It is something St. Paul states over and over in the letters to the Christians.
These so called settlements are ugly and destructive never NEVER productive. Yes CHRIST IS THIS IMAGE OF ALL LOVE. Love to wife, love to husband, love to father. St. Paul says "LOVE YOUR WIVES AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH". Christ is the image of all real love. Not the fake limited love we have as humans based on exchanges of goods. Based on contractual agreements. The problem is your speaking made up non-sense with only failed experiences. We are giving you successful experiences of happy rebuilt marriages.
The other is always the enemy, or becomes the enemy because according to St. Paul the other always becomes an obstacle to our idea of happiness. Just like the truth of Christ makes us the enemies of Christ. You are stating this when you state that the solution is divorce. You are stating that the truth Christ is stating is false, the truth marriage being non-dissoluble is false, so then Christ's truth is false and we must get rid of him. You made this statement.
Then finally in response to your last statement at 8:27pm
First of all you are correct that God does not have to find a solution because he is God. But the fact is he did give us a solution. Because it is impossible for us to find a solution. We have original sin and we cannot find a solution to this. We needed Christ as savior to find the solution for us. All the problems in marriage derive from original sin. Original sin is a slavery so we need an outside party to free us. This party is Christ. This is what we call redemption.
As for your heretical interpretation of Adam and eve, NO Adam does not have the power of creation. Giving a name is not creating. Because I can name something does not give me magical power to make something that is alive. I would recommend reading the didache which is the guide to properly interpret scripture and not make it up as you seem fit. The didache is the teachings of the apostles, a very old book.
Both Adam and Eve sinned, PLEASE never forget that. Adam ate the apple as well. No offense but your speaking out of your butt with no education or knowledge just made up crap.
So far you've proven you have no education in psychology (even though you make psychological claim). No education in theology (even though you make theological claims).
Thank you, Anonymous. We both know well that abusive language won't lead us anywhere. So, this is good. I did not tell you divorce is a solution. What I told you is that divorce is a reality of life. We don't live in a perfect world, we have to face the failures of our own lives. In case of a divorce settlement our law system, based on liberty for all, allows the mother who cares for the children get special favors. This is a good thing.
DeleteAlso, law prohibits anyone to deprive others from their rights. If a mother has a right for child support by court decision, then it is unlawful to insert yourself between her right and the law. Our law system takes this kind of abuses very seriously. I know instance when divorce was granted for a Catholic couple by annulment in Vatican by the intercession of their neocatechumen community.
You might not be in the position of qualifying my credential is psychology. Let me tell you that the love of the parents for each other is not sufficient for the kids. There are great schisms in families because of sibling rivalry for the love of their parents. There are parents even in Catholic families who beat up and abuse their kids in perfect harmony and agreement with each other. I asked you how you "save" marriages of people who don't even come close to a church ever and you weren't able to tell.
You seem to deny the very existence and meaningful life from kids in foster homes. This is wrong. Ray Tenorio who is running for governor was a foster kid. Does not he have a right? Foster homes receive the overwhelming support from the society in forms of social policy, programs, expertise, educational support and psychological care. Many of these kids become exemplary citizens finding love elsewhere, apart from their biological parents. Aggressive or not, they are all children of God, aren't they?
Adam was given the power from God to name everything in the universe. He created names and concepts of identities. He created a world of linguistic constructs and relations. He created language, the very tools to the prophets to prophesy and write the Bible.
"There is no feminine character and no contradiction within the Holy Trinity, it is a perfect unity of a male Father, a male Son and the Holy Ghost. This is the power of creation."
DeleteWow, wow, wait a minute! I can't believe what you are saying here, dear critiquer! Are you at your right mind?! Who told you that God is all male? For sure, the Bible doesn't say that! Give me just one single quote where God is named in the Bible by a male pronoun. There is none! He is transcending genders and incorporates both fatherly and motherly traits in the Godhead!
The power of creation is not "male" either! Just look at a nursing mother with her baby! She is creating life in that little thing, creating smile on her face. She is making a baby into a human being by her own creative power. Please, cut back you male chauvinism for a minute and acknowledge the spirit of femina as a creative power in our world!
You even state: "The gender of the church cannot be female. ... The truth is that the power of procreation was given to the male, who is Adam in all of us. Adam gave name to everyone on earth, above or below it. Eve was the sinner one, please never forget that."
Oh, well, typical male logic! Procreation is only one thing. Never forget, my friend, that to fertilize eggs you need eggs presented to you, okay?! If us women deny presenting our eggs to you, then you may go with your procreative power someplace else. Never forget that!
Dear Femina, I did not address my comment to you, I still would like to respond to your questions.
Delete1. The traditional rabbinic interpretation of the Old Testament texts take the name of God that cannot be pronounced as a male pronoun. So yes, Yahweh is the Father in heaven. This is explicit in the New Testament.
2. Procreation is a distinct ability of the male. We don't know any other way to procreate except by the presence of the male. Even the "spirit of femina" should acknowledge that.
3. I am not claiming that men are supreme over women. On the contrary, I am saying that God laid down clear distinctions between the male and the female. Whatever your concept of self-actualization as "reaching your full potential as woman" means, your potential lies in the realm of being female.
The world is not ruled and cannot be ruled by the "spirit of femina".
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteThe only person in the Holy Trinity who has a gender is Jesus. He is male. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit has no gender. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes.
Woman was also created in God's image and likeness. The Catholic Church is the authority, and she says that God the Father is neither male nor female. He is pure spirit and has no gender. It is the same with the Holy Spirit. The only one with a gender is Jesus.
Also, procreation is NOT a distinct ability of the male. A man would need a woman in order to procreate and vice versa. Procreation belongs to both man and woman. You cannot have procreation without the other. Remember, Adam was ALONE for a long time and could not procreate until God brought Eve.
It's obvious that Guam needs re-evangelization as much as Europe. Joanne Santos is a Catholic who thinks that Mary has divine powers. Critiquer can't follow the CCC that says God is pure spirit and is neither a man or a woman. Now, Rohr is blaming AB Apuron for the problems caused by secular society.
DeleteDiana, I am surprised you take the side of Femina. But even you say Adam was created first and Eve was created only afterward. So Adam was alone for a long time because God found him a pretty good image of God Himself!
DeleteCCC 370 is a politically correct statement. We should all accept that even CCC deserves criticism sometimes. Another statement from the official teaching of the church is
CCC 240: Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father by his relationship to his only Son who, reciprocally, is Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Jeremiah also says: "My Father, my friend from my youth, will you always be angry? Will your wrath continue forever?" (Jer.3:4-5)
The first words of the Old Testament are B'reshit bara Elohim — "In the beginning God created." The verb bara (created) agrees with a masculine singular subject. Two of the most common phrases in the Tanakh are vayomer Elohim and vayomer YHWH — "and God said". Again, the verb vayomer (he said) is masculine; it is never vatomer, the feminine of the same verb form.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God_in_Christianity
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteYou stated: "So Adam was alone for a long time because God found him a pretty good image of God Himself!"
Only a male chauvinist would say this. I am a Catholic and this is a Catholic blog. Catholics are not Protestants who only follow their their own interpretation.
I am sorry, Diana, I apologize. If you misunderstood me then probably I am at fault because of my sloppy sentence. Please look at the intention. I did not mean male chauvinism and did not make interpretation apart from CCC. I told Femina "I am not claiming that men are supreme over women. On the contrary!"
DeleteI quoted what you said that God created man in His own image and Adam was alone for a long time. So God must have been satisfied, as he saw it was good. It is not male chauvinism. "God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." (Gen.1:31)
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteI NEVER said that Adam was alone for a long time because God found him a pretty good image of himself. That came from you. Both man and woman were made together in God's image and likeness. That is found in both the Catechism and the Holy Bible:
Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; MALE AND FEMALE he created them.
Genesis 1 is clear in that God created man and woman in his image and likeness.
The reason for Genesis 2, in which God created Adam first was to show the marriage and communion of husband and wife. Eve was created from the side of Adam to signify that she is to stand beside him, NOT behind him nor in front of him. She stands beside Adam as his equal for she is bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. Genesis 2 is clear that a marriage is supposed to be between man and woman, not between man and man or between woman and woman. Genesis 2 shows that it was God who created marriage. Marriage did not come from man.
My answer was also in response to your comment about procreation being the distinct ability of men. To procreate, you would need a sperm and an egg. The sperm comes ONLY from the man, and the egg comes ONLY from the woman. Therefore, procreation is NOT the distinct ability of the man.
Dear Diana, thank you for correcting critiquer who seems to be a repentant sinner. But his apology is not enough to make the wrongs right that have been done by self-indulgent men against women in the name of male dominance down the historical timeline.
DeleteFirst of all, if something is "politically correct" then it still might be true and valid. God has no gender. Period. CCC clarified that, but critiquer is a criticizing everything for the sake of criticizing, including the magisterium of the Catholic Church.
No doubt, there are consequences of God the Father not being male or female. He is a benevolent Parent, unifying motherly and fatherly features. The same goes with Jesus, who is the Son. He was a male while on earth. But as a pure spiritual being, he has no gender in heaven.
Critiquer is wrong in claiming extra authority for men. Based on what? A man has to prove his fitness to lead a family. We all know that husbands are usually not good in money matters or supervising the education of their children. The mother should control the family budget make the smart school choices for their children. These authorities should never be usurped by men.
I hope critiquer will learn from his blunder and have more respect for the true spirit of femina which is very powerfully present everywhere, including the Catholic church.
Dear Femina,
DeleteCritiquer's apology is good enough for me. Not all husbands are terrible with money matters. A husband or wife should never leave out their spouse when it comes to making decisions. I believe that both husband and wife should work together for the good of the family. However, if there is a disagreement, the husband should listen to what his wife has to say, but in the end, he makes makes the final decision when there is still a disagreement. And the wife should support her husband's decision rather than work against him.
Diana, again, I am sure the NCW communities are full of reliable and responsible men who regularly attend services and keep their contact with the church alive. Blessed are the wives who have those kind of husbands. I would trust all important decisions on their counsel.
DeleteBut we all know we are living in a real world where most men are not really zealous about their faith. Sometimes they attend a mass, but mostly keep company with their peers in recreation. Okay, let talk about pubs and game parlors, sport games, men's clubs, a lot of beer and other kind of drinks or even even recreational drugs.
I surely would not trust these men with important decisions. When a husband becomes addicted to alcohol, he would spend his money to buy drinks. If he does drugs with his fellas, you can be sure a lot of saving is going to be wasted on that habit. In case he is prone to gambling, you might be up for a financial disaster, a careless squandering of the inheritance of his children.
The husband's rule in good Catholic families definitely makes sense, especially when the wife is truly taken as his mate in Christ. But most men are not like that. Most of them cannot be trusted but must be restricted by a powerful wife who turns him back to the right path of raising good Catholic children in a good Catholic family. A scoundrel should never be the head of your family! God has never meant this so.
Dear Femina,
DeleteWe women have a lot power that we do not need to be head of the home nor be controlling toward our husbands. Women have been known to sway men since the beginning. It is the woman who can keep a man grounded. There is a saying, "Behind every great man is a woman".
Diana, why would we need a "head" of the home in the first place? If we are equal, or co-equal, then we should have some kind of a family "council" where the parents discuss all relevant issues and make decisions by mutual consent. Then the wife would also win and feel truly appreciated in a tangible manner. This is the practice in most of the places I see, anyway. Perhaps, kids who have grown into family earners and still live with the family could join the "council".
DeleteDear Femina,
DeleteChildren should be taught to respect and obey their parents. When a parent tells a child to clean his/her room, that is not a democracy in which the child has the option to discuss the issue. Grown up children who still live with their parents must also obey their parents because it is the home of their parents.
The husband is the head because he is the one to protect his wife. If an intruder enters the home, I do not expect the woman to tell her husband to call the police while she takes a baseball bat to face the intruder herself. It is the man who should take the baseball bat and confront the intruder while the wife calls for help. The husband is the protector and responsible for his wife.
Dear Diana and Femina, I see you cannot agree on crucial points. No wonder, your positions are diametrically opposed to each other. Femina tries to argue women's right in Catholic context while Diana prescribes the book solution. Femina preaches religion as a form of self actualization for women in reaching their "full potential", while Diana abhors any concept of ego that needs nourishment.
DeleteThe prescription Diana laid down was written by St. Paul, who was not able overcome his time's major consent on the liberty of subjugating women to men. What is more, St. Paul gave an elevated status to his retrograde view about women by writing in down among the New Testament letters.
You guys might have agreed in tearing me down for saying that God the Father and his Son in the Holy Trinity are male. It is true that CCC is teaching a transcended gender for God. But your alliance only covers up a deep irreconcilable abyss between your views. Your temporary alliance for promoting politically correct speech has no substance beyond the surface.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteIt was not the Apostle Paul who laid down those rules. It was God Himself for St. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Since the beginning, men and women were created equal, but DIFFERENT. Being different does not mean they are not equal. Men and women each have their own roles. St. Paul was not prejudice against women and neither was Christ. It is Satan who tries to fool people into thinking that St. Paul and Christ discriminated against women. Some people believe that in order for all to be equal, one must get rid of all genders and their roles. And so, this is the reason why you see the things happening today. Young children in elementary schools are being taught that they can choose their own gender.
I also did not tear you down for saying that God the Father is male. I told you that God the Father is neither male nor female and gave the CCC to support my view.
Dear Diana, St. Paul was a human being and he was not Christ. Whatever is authoritative in his teaching was supposed to be inspired by the Holy Ghost. But whatever is not authoritative was not supposed to be inspired. St. Paul has never intended to make every words in his letters to be carved into stone. He gave admonitions to his followers according to the prevalent views of his times.
DeleteAnother way to say this is that while one part of St. Paul's teaching is independent of time and space, the other part is dependent. His teaching about family is considered to be on the borderline, some people say it is still valid, others say it is not. Do you feel like to be the judge to make final decision in this contentious issue?
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteThe Church's teachings on the family is valid and follows what the Apostle Paul taught. According to the Catholic website:
"The Holy Catholic Church teaches, through Scripture and Tradition, that the husband is the head of his family and has God-given authority over his wife and children. This gift of authority does not give a husband any greater dignity than his wife. Both are equal members of the marital covenant, as is reflected by God creating woman from the side of man (as opposed to his head or feet). Instead, this order of authority reflects the divine order between God, Christ and man. God blessed the marital covenant with this order to maintain peace and harmony in the family, the “domestic church.” Just as Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church (the family of God), so the father is the head of his domestic church (his family)."
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/husband-as-head-of-the-family/
In the Neocatechumenal Way, we teach that the husband is the head of the home and the wife is the heart of the home. Both the head and heart are equally important and cannot do without the other.
That is also true in human biology. While the head makes decisions, it is the heart that pumps blood and oxygen into the head. Without that blood and oxygen, he would not be able make better decisions. So, you see, the head also needs to listen to the heart before making any final decisions.
@ critiquer.... can you answer then why is St. Paul's writings in the bible if we are to view it as the word of God? Cannot see people trying to undo what has been written in the bible by interpritations to meet their idea.... i don't know about that which is why...shouldn't we seek the churches teachings on it? Other religions might have interpretations to meet their needs...but then the truth is questioned....
DeleteI'd go with the catholic teaching to be on the safe side and accept it to help me in accepting what i cannot change and trust in the word of God...
Leroy Brown
Critiquer, you'd better be silent for a while. You like to speak too much, but what you say does not add up. Or it adds up to the ugly view of male supremacy over women. We have had that enough in the history of the Catholic Church. But now, the spirit of femina is coming to you even together with the Holy Spirit.
DeleteYou think whatever is "politically correct" it automatically must be wrong. You don't acknowledge that politically correct speech is an achievement of those who stood up and spoke out against male chauvinists! It is not so nice anymore to impose your will on women who have their own personalities and worldviews. Women became powerful enough to demand your respect.
You are hiding in the Catholic Church hoping that you can keep your biased views hiding among the faithful. But you are greatly mistaken. Diana and I exposed you as you are, a biased person who thinks God must be male just because you are male. No, my friend. We say no to you in the spirit of femina and you'd better to begin to pray to an impartial God who created women and men co-equal, not one to the service of the other.
Dear Diana, thanks for your thoughts. Critiquer needed to be taught a good lesson. And a good lesson he got! I hope he'll learn from it.
DeleteMy only concern is the imposition that should not be applied on any free creatures, especially not on free women. If a wife accepts the authority of her husband over her, then I say it is good for them. May they be blessed in their endeavor. However, if a wife considers male rule as an imposition on her and especially she rejects the authority of her husband in deciding everything at home, then that wife has the right to say no. That wife has the right to stand up and protest. Not against God who is impartial and transcending genders, but against the imposition of the man.
Dear Femina,
DeleteMy husband is the head of our home, and I have no problems with that. If a woman has a problem with a man being a head, it is probably better that she never marry. Nevertheless, even a single woman has a head. The head of every single woman is Jesus Christ. And if you are single, I do not think you would object to having Christ as your head.
Diana, that is nice. As I see in Catholic context Jesus is the head of the church, not of individuals. Being head of the church He should be equally in the center for both married and single women.
DeleteMany wives do have problem with their husbands who abuse them. Jesus has never authorized physical, mental, spiritual or emotional blackmail of women by their men. Women need to fight back any abuse of blackmailing. Your idea of submitting your will to your husband on God's command cannot be applied for everyone. There are Catholic families where a mother of little children may suffer greatly because of the father who is her husband.
In the long run, you might need help from the grand society in form of laws and social services to fend off an aggressive man in order to save your babies from his bad influence. You have to show the spirit of femina as real power that may crush arrogance through solidarity of other women so all men learn to respect it.
Dear Femina,
DeleteA husband and wife is considered one individual; therefore, Christ is in the center of both married and single women. But a married woman does not leave out her husband because she is one with him.
If a husband is abusive to his wife, I believe the wife should remove herself from him. She should also take the children with her. An abusive husband will eventually turn abusive toward the children. In my case, my husband is not abusive at all. He's a kind and loving man. Naturally, there are times we have our disagreements, but he has never been abusive towards me or our kids.
I've seen people in the WAY from marrying in Court to remarry in Church. Many people on island prefer to play house than have a holy matrimony. Yet the CCOG Archdiocese prefer to go after statute of limitations, rather the answer for suicide or prepare for holy matrimony and lastly MONEY.
ReplyDeleteFailed in vocations also, no recent entry but CCOG Archdiocese has financial problem and readjusted how the count the collections. Suspicious of someone pocketing the funds. Would you believe that? No trust system even with collection.
Jealousy and greed.
Gino - Sinajana
Dear Gino, how is it that NCW admits couples into masses who are not lawfully married in the Catholic Church? Are you also serving them the Eucharist?
DeleteDear Critiquer,
DeleteEveryone is always welcome in the Catholic Church, but not everyone in the Church can receive the Eucharist.
It is an interesting phenomenon dear critiquer who are not critiquing but instead trying to harm with your maliciousness.
DeleteI was saying, it is an interesting phenomenon that I have witnessed many times as a catechist. People in situations of mortal sin usually will go to mass in the larger church and receive communion and continue in the situation of sin. Instead in the community they feel accompanied and supported and they do not receive communion but change the way they live and regularize their situation or leave the situation of mortal sin.
Can you explain me that dear sarcastic critiquer? Can you tell me why or how people in the larger church receive in situations of sin and don’t change while they don’t receive in the community and their lives change?
And FYI you are misusing the term Eucharist once again showing your ignorance. The Eucharist is the appropriate term for the whole celebration of the MASS. Mass is a popular term that developed some speculate in the
Middle Ages due to linguistic anachronisms. What you call Eucharist is defined as Eucharistic species or communion species. Go read a book.
NB
Critiquer- nope they're advise not to receive holy host till they receive the holy sacrament of matrimony. For you to witness this, to see and experience your very own community. You heard the bad and the ugly of the way but you have to experience it like going to Rome. LOL.
DeleteGino- Sinajana
There is a nice passage in DV 21:
Delete“The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body.”
That’s why people who can’t receive The Body of Christ, can participate in the Eucharist. There are 2 tables: table of God’s word and Body of Christ.
AnonymousFebruary 28, 2018 at 1:36 PM Huh? I don't remember that... What Catholic Church do you got to?
DeleteGino - Sinajana
Gino, I’m not saying that they can receive the Body of Christ. I’m Simply saying that the Mass(the Eucharist) is also for them. They are nurtured through the Word of God. The quote is taken from DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION DEI VERBUM, chapter VI, SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH.
DeleteThat's probably the reason why there's the prayer for those who are unable to receive the Body of Christ.
DeleteA priest knows who in the parish co-habitate or live in unholy union. Then his duty is to deny the sacrament from them. Eucharist was famously denied from "Catholic" politicians who openly advocate abortion.
DeleteDear Critiquer,
DeleteHow would the priest know when he does not know every single person in the parish? Some priests do not even go out of their parish. Some stay in the parish and wait for the people to come to him, so he only knows those who came to him or who are active in his parish.
FYI: One thing is to deny the Eucharist to a 'Public' figure, another is to deny it to a parishioner that has revealed his 'secret' under the seal of confession; In that case, the Priest is not allowed to act on his knowledge.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:17 Am,
DeleteA person who confesses his mortal sin to the priest and has been absolved by the priest can receive Holy Communion. What I meant is when a person told the priest his mortal sin outside of confession as in a conversation.