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P.S. We have just received news from Alonso, the itinerant of Santo Domingo of something which I think is very important for all brothers and sisters: on June 23, in the afternoon, in the middle of the Itinerant’s Convivence, His Excellency Ramón de la Rosa y Carpio, Archbishop Emeritus of Santiago, Dominican Republic, showed up unexpectedly. He came directly from Santiago, in the middle of a powerful rain storm, in order to personally tell us: "A short time ago, we had the AD LIMINA visit of all bishops from Santo Domingo. The Holy Father received us breaking protocol. Before, he would receive us one by one for fifteen minutes each and he would conclude with a brief common message. This time he changed the protocol and received us all together, paternally dialoguing with all of us for more than one hour and a half. The reason for my presence here is because I want to tell you with details something very important which was said during that audience. The Holy Father, when Bishop Fausto spoke about the existence in the Dominican Republic of an Inter-diocesan Seminary and of two Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, focused his dialogue on speaking about the Neocatechumenal Way. I realized that what he was saying was so important, that in that moment I took out my notebook and started taking notes of everything he said. The pope centered his speech on 7 points:
FIRST: Many things have been said about Kiko Argüello and many other can be said. However one thing is sure: HE IS A SAINT.
SECOND: The Neocatechumenal Way is of the Holy Spirit for his Church.
THIRD: Therefore, I strongly exhort you to support, encourage and follow this Christian Initiation.
FOURTH: I value very positively the missionary dimension of these communities. This year I’ve just sent out more than one hundred families to where there is not a presence of the Church or it’s very small.
FIFTH: Regarding the Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, I say the following: what would it be of the Diocese of Rome without it? I’ve just ordained 16 priests and 13 were from the Neocatechumenal Way. You draw the conclusions.
SIXTH: The Neocatechumenal Way has restored in the church the EASTER VIGIL, which is the center of Christian life.
SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands.
Yeah kiko is a saint Biba kiko arguello
ReplyDeleteBIBA!!
DeleteAll that the popes have said about the Way are good. Its too bad when the ccog and the jungle bunnies have a really big blind spot preventing them from seeing TRUTH. Oh well, I guess they 'see and see but still don't understand', to quite Isaiah.
ReplyDeleteWhenever the VATICAN comes out with good news on the Way, Rohr is furious beyond repair and beyond all reason. Amazing! He'll run to dear Patty Arroyo and bemoan bemoan cry and cry.
ReplyDeleteIs the Pope's entire message posted online anywhere? I'd love to read the whole speech. Thank you!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI am sure Kiko understands that even if the Pope calls him a Saint; he is praying to walk further down the steps of BAPTISTISM in humility.
This is not about the rohrs or arroyos but the WORD of God. God speaks and things happen. Lives are being transformed by the Spirit of the Lord not the word of Kiko who will be the first to tell us that he is just a servant.
We are all called to be true servants.....not part time servants.
Appreciate everyone's prayers; we're sending families to PA. this Sept; young adults and pilgrims to Poland.
God does provide but he does listen to our prayers.
JSB
How exciting. Waiting to see this in the news.
ReplyDeleteDear Diane,
ReplyDeleteWould you please supply the Vatican website to verify? Thank you
"The reason for my presence here is because I want to tell you with details something very important which was said during that audience. The Holy Father, when Bishop Fausto spoke about the existence in the Dominican Republic of an Inter-diocesan Seminary and of two Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, focused his dialogue on speaking about the Neocatechumenal Way. I realized that what he was saying was so important, that in that moment I took out my notebook and started taking notes of everything he said. The pope centered his speech on 7 points: "
ReplyDeleteDear Diane:
Without copy of the pope's speech to verify the above's seven points, this is all "hearsay."
It is also extremely important, that the pope's words are not taken out of context, to prevent "heresy."
"The reason for my presence here is because I want to tell you with details something very important which was said during that audience. The Holy Father, when Bishop Fausto spoke about the existence in the Dominican Republic of an Inter-diocesan Seminary and of two Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, focused his dialogue on speaking about the Neocatechumenal Way. I realized that what he was saying was so important, that in that moment I took out my notebook and started taking notes of everything he said. The pope centered his speech on 7 points: "
ReplyDeleteDear Diane:
It is possible to appear to have two personalities - one influenced by the Holy Spirit, and the other dictated by the devil.
How many times do we find in our hearts wanting to do the Father's will, but pride prevents us from being obedient - more mature spiritually. (Refer to Pope Francis' recent speech re the danger of founders becoming "peacocks.")
Diana, we're still waiting to hear about this important development on the news. That statement by Pope Francis about Kiko Arguello, " However one thing is sure: HE IS A SAINT" is very newsworthy, don't you think?
ReplyDeleteIf the only place that this declaration is available is here on your blog, it could make it look like the gossip, hearsay and superstition that Professor Zoltan Szekely accuses Rohr of doing.
Please put a link so we can read the Pope's actual statement.
Thank you.
The four page letter signed by Giuseppe and Claudia Gennarini is already an official document that the NCW has that is not even over the Internet. This letter document the names of persons who heard the Pope made those points. I see that a lot of you are bothered by the first point. And why should that surprise you? Afterall, Pope Francis gave the NCW his strongest support on March 6th.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana @ 7:52 AM--
ReplyDeleteIs this news just for those who are walking the Way, then? May I ask why? It seems that this would be something EVERYONE should know throughout the world to help further the cause.
In this day and age everyone knows that whenever the Holy Father speaks to groups it is documented and the written transcript can be obtained through the internet. To make the claim that he stated something becomes suspect to non-walkers when it isn't found. Or does it matter to you whether or not we do believe it? For the record--I am Catholic, I am not a follower of Rohr. I am interested in all that goes on within our Faith.
Dear Anonymous at 11:05 am,
DeleteYou are interested in all that goes on in the Catholic faith or is it only the NCW that interests you?
Dear Diana--
DeleteNo, not just NCW. But it is the current interest, what with all the controversy going on. But truth be told, I'll be leaving island soon and in my parish stateside our NCW communities aren't a controversial topic. I was just trying to get an idea of what was going on here with the Catholics on Guam.
Dear Anonymous at 4:11 pm,
DeleteThe NCW got the letter from Giuseppe because it was addressed to the brothers in the NCW. In his letter, Giuseppe encouraged the brothers to participate in the World Family Day coming up in September. He also quoted some of what Kiko said in the World Family Day in Rome.
Personally, the controversy here in Guam has more to do with jealousy and the love for money. This controversy started in the clergy who brought to the people so the laity would fight their battles for them.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe yours July 23 2015 7:52 am which states:
"Afterall, Pope Francis gave the NCW his strongest support on March 6th."
I refer to a comment made by Anonymous at that time re that speech:
"This is from the Pope's speech. You heard it yourself from him. Pope Francis stated, "So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, ........."
"So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; " - I know many non-Neo people who this can apply to, also..
Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday - I know many non-neos who go to their Saturday Mass on a regular basis. It's like their own community, too.
However........Just like the NCW Mass, the regular Masses can be filled with liturgical abuses that need to be corrected.
God still works amongst all the liturgical abuses - we overwhelmingly see that in the fruits of the NCW. Diana, you always comment that the Pope would have excommunicated Kiko if their Mass alterations were not approved.
The Pope will not excommunicate Kiko for this, just like the Pope will not excommunicate all those responsible for the various liturgical abuses in the non-Neo Masses. The Popes try their hardest to straighten the bent reed. We are ALL bent reeds.The Popes, very patiently, through their encyclicals, speeches, books, etc.,have tried to correct the liturgical abuses.
Does the fact that each Pope's refusal to put the NCW's "deletions and additions" through with written approval not bother you? The NCW's own prepared written approval was rejected by Pope Benedict XVI in January 2012. "
"How is it that Pope Francis knows of the division that this Mass has caused, yet has never re-written the NCW Statutes to include the "deletions and additions" of the NCW Mass. The only approved change was the move of the Sign of Peace and this was "written" in detail. Do not the other changes warrant the same written consideration if they have been approved?"
---------------------------
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to add to Anonymous July 22, 2015 at 8:31 PM
Jesus told Peter "Get behind me Satan." Peter had to be corrected.
We, therefore, should not think that the NCW needs no correction. We all need correction.
May we all do the Father's Will. May Pride not make us think we know it all and cause us to be disobedient.
Diana, also...
Re: " SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary CORRECT the catechists, the communities…(because to CORRECT is to love)…but CORRECT with the Statutes in your hands."
This is what many have been trying to do with charity since day one. Now with the authority of the "SEVENTH," according to His Holiness Pope Francis himself,......with the 2008 Statutes in hand......
The approved Statutes of 2008 does not give the NCW the permission to have all their additions and deletions in their Mass. (The NCW must adhere to the approved Liturgical Books.)
If you still believe that the Statutes of 2008 gives permission to stand at the Eucharistic Prayer, or to have the community consume the Body of Christ BEFORE the priest has consumed BOTH the Body and Blood, or.......any of the other additions or deletions not in the approved Liturgical Books...... it is NOW NECESSARY for you to show where in the Statutes of 2008 this exists (because we who have been trying to lovingly correct the NCW cannot find it.) Please refer to the page and number to where in the Statutes of 2008 these additions and deletions are mentioned.
Thank you Pope Francis for clarifying that NCW mistakes must be corrected by consulting the approved Statutes. That makes misinterpreting Pope Francis' speeches unacceptable. Peace.
Dear Anonymous at 12:27 pm,
DeleteThe fact that this was even mentioned in Giuseppe's letter showed that he was not hiding anything. If there is anything that needed to be corrected, we have the statutes to correct the Catechists and communities, but what makes you think that the Pope was referring to the liturgy and celebrations of the Way? Personally, I have found some Catechists who think they are equal to the priests, and this is false. There is a difference between the ministering priesthood and the common priesthood. Only the ministering priests can turn the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. In this, we are not equal.
"but what makes you think that the Pope was referring to the liturgy and celebrations of the Way?"
DeleteWell, because in the reply to Kiko's letter last year, the pope through Archbishop Becciu referred to articles 12 and 13 of the Statutes in relation to the complaints about the Eucharist and the Vigil. So, clearly the Pope is referring to the liturgy and the celebrations of the Way when he mentions the Statutes. Thus, it is now necessary for you, or others in the NCW, to clearly show where in the Statutes the additions and delitions are permitted.
Dear Anonymous at 7:44 pm,
DeleteThat was last year. I doubt that the Pope was referring to anything liturgical due to the fact that he mentioned the Cbrisitian initiation. I am speculating that he may be referring to the steps or stages of the Christian initiation. Perhaps, some Catechists and/or community members may have missed a step?
The pope has confirmed that articles 12 and 13 constitute the regulatory charter in relation to the celebration of the Eucharist and the Vigil. There is no other regulation - that much is certain. So, if "to correct is to love", then the correction of the litugical celebrations of the NCW should proceed "with the Statutes in your hand".
DeleteBut your capcity to stubbornly refuse the love no knows bounds, and instead you will continue on with your futile and fruitless arguments. That, unfortunately, is also certain.
Dear Anonymous at 1:49 am,
DeleteI already said so many times that the NCW is following the Statutes. The Pope said, "The Neocatechumenal Way has restored in the church the EASTER VIGIL, which is the center of Christian life." And you say that we violate the Easter celebration? If you feel that we are wrong, write to the Vatican, but do not correct us because you do not have the Statutes in your hand.
"do not correct us because you do not have the Statutes in your hand.'
DeleteActually I do. And I know them inside and out.
Look, the problem is this. When it is said that the Easter Vigil is restored or is enhanced or as the Statutes put it "the NCW will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil", this does not automatically mean that there is to be another separate Easter Vigil.
In other words the existing parish Easter Vigil can be "restored", "enhanced" or "be made richer".
Your view, and the view promulgated by the NCW, that the Easter Vigil should be celebrated separately by the communities is not supported by the Statutes, and is not necessary to understand the alleged words of the Pope.
If we are to understand that the Statutes should be the regulatory charter of the celebration o f the Paschal Vigil, then we should find where in the Statutes is the direction for the separate celebration. There is no such reference though. And in fact the words used in the Statutes ie "stimulate the parish", actually seem to indicate that the role of the NCW is to participate in the existing parish Vigil liturgy.
Dear Anonymous at 11:06 am,
DeleteThe Pope said that the NCW restored in the Church the Easter Vigil. This actually means that the Easter Vigil should be six hours long. But are you willing to stay up all night long until the wee hours of the morning. If the parish were to have the kind of Easter Vigil the NCW celebrates (which is what the Pope wants), the members of the NCW would be the only ones attending while you and many regular Catholics would not.
Whether or not you believe that only members of the NCW would "stay up all night long" is beside the point, with due respect. It may or may not be the case.
DeleteWhat is relevant is whether the regulatory charter of the Paschal Vigil in the NCW, namely article 12 of the Statutes, permits the NCW to celebrate the Vigil separately, when the direction of the Church is that there should be only one celebration in a parish. Now, if you can find such permission in the Statutes you would be entirely justified in claiming what you claim. But I have never seen you, or any other person in the NCW including Kiko himself, ever state that such a permission exists in the Statutes, let alone be able to provide such a reference.
Please go ahead and provide though if I am mistaken about its absence from the "charter".
Do you call that a reply? You have already judged me (and other "regular" Catholics) of having no sense or desire to celebrate the Vigil "correctly", and yet you can't even face the reality of your own situation enough to answer the actual concern.
DeleteI'll give it to you again, so you don't go traipsing off on an unnecessary tangent once more to protect yourself from truth.
Where in the Statutes is the separate NCW celebration of the Paschal Vigil referred to or allowed?
If you can't find it, you have a problem. You can bury that problem beneath banal distractions or red herrings if you like, but it will only remain a beating heart beneath the floorboards until you resolve it. So go on, I dare you.
Dear Anonymou at 3:01 pm,
DeleteOn the contrary, it is relevant. If you feel that the Paschal Vigil should be celebrated for six hours, then by all means....gather many people in the parish who are not in the NCW and approach your pastor. Tell him that you would like the Easter Vigil to be celebrated the way the NCW does since it is highly recommended by the Pope otherwise it would be a waste of time if only the NCW members show up and not even you would show up. The NCW is NOT here to take over the parish for only the NCW members to attend. This would only give the jungle folks credence. So, if you are serious about having a six hour Easter Vigil, then speak to your pastor and gather the signatures from non-NCW members.
Dear Anonymous at 3:50 pm,
DeleteBelow is what the Statutes stated (Capitalization is mine):
§ 2. “The Paschal Vigil, focal point of the Christian liturgy, and its baptismal spirituality inspire all Catechesis.”44 It is for this reason that during the itinerary, the neocatechumens ARE INITIATED GRADUALLY 45 into an ever more perfect participation in all that the holy night signifies, celebrates and realizes.
§ 3. In this way, the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil.46
The Neocatechumen is to be introduced into our Easter Vigil GRADUALLY. This means a separation from the parish night mass that you have as an Easter Vigil. There is a REASON why the Vatican used the word "gradually." Nevertheless, if you really feel that you and many others want to attend the six hour Easter Vigil, then gather those who are not NCW members and approach your parish priest.
To participate in the Easter Vigil, you must also participate in the preparation, which takes the entire Saturday. You would start the preparation Saturday morning and end setting up by three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Your children will take part in the Easter Vigil along with the children of the NCW. After all, it would not be right to leave your children behind. After the set up, you and your children will use the time to sleep. The Easter Vigil will start at 10:00 pm, and end until 4:00 a.m. in the morning. You and your children are to stay awake the entire time and please do not leave early. It would be an insult to our Lord Jesus Christ.
"The Neocatechumen is to be introduced into our Easter Vigil GRADUALLY. "
DeleteOk, So where does it say "your" Easter Vigil? It doesn't. It says that the neocatechumen has a gradual participation in "all that the holy night signifies, celebrates and realizes". There have no problem with the GRADUALLY (which you capitalize for some reason), but with the "our". The celebration of the Holy night to which the Statutes refer occurs in the locus of the Parish, and according to the liturgical rules of the Church should be the only one.
"This means a separation from the parish night mass that you have as an Easter Vigil. "
Sorry, but the word "GRADUALLY" has no bearing on whether the Vigil is celebrated separately. For example, it may be that the initial catechesis prepares the catechumen to understand a certain selection or subsection of the celebration, and to perhaps participate in the singing of certain hymns. Later he/she may participate more directly by action as a lector, or commentator - perhaps by singing the litany or other particular actions - according to their instruction and their understanding. This is in no way prohibited in the parish, and in fact exactly this occurs in relation to candidates of the RCIA.
I don't know how your final paragraph is meant to be understood as relevant. I am sure I have prepared for more Easter Vigil preparations that you Diana, and my family and children are always deeply involved in this sort of thing. You know nothing about me or what I do in relation to the celebrations in my parish, but that does not stop you from judging me.
"It would be an insult to our Lord Jesus Christ."
Yes, to divide what Our Lord unites is definitely an insult - particularly when it is done deliberately, unlawfully and without good reason.
I really don't understand the ranting about NCW Easter Vigils or NCW Eucharist.
DeleteThese celebrations are and were always open to those that are called.
Catholic's, pagan's, black, brown, white, Guamanians, Baptists etc...
JSB
Dear Anonymous at 4:50 pm,
DeleteThe Statutes are very clear. It stated: "In this way, the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil."
In other words, it is saying that the NCW will be the one to stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration. It was NOT the other way around. This came from the approved Statutes. If you have a problem with the wording in the Statutes, write to the Vatican and take it up with them because they were the ones who approved it.
Now you are grasping at straws in your interpretations of what the Statutes mean. Gradually is better than suddenly. Every year, we invite some non-NCW members to the Easter Vigil. I assume this is the correct way to gradually introduce them to the six hour Easter Vigil. As I said, if you and the entire people in your parish suddenly feel that we should have a six hour Easter Vigil, then do so. Gather everyone in your parish and ask your parish priest if it is possible to have the Easter Vigil celebrated the way the NCW celebrates since it is highly recommended by the Pope.
As is have already said, the word "gradually" is not the contention. There is no problem in a catechumen being gradually introduced to the depth of the Paschal mystery and its celebration. In fact that would seem to be exactly the reason for any sort of Catholic catechesis. But, why are you now applying the word "gradually" to those outside the NCW?
Delete" Every year, we invite some non-NCW members to the Easter Vigil. I assume this is the correct way to gradually introduce them, to the six hour Easter Vigil."
As you have previously mentioned, the "gradually" in the Statutes refer to " the neocatechumens":
"It is for this reason that during the itinerary, the neocatechumens ARE INITIATED GRADUALLY 45 into an ever more perfect participation in all that the holy night signifies, celebrates and realizes."
Now, whether or not the parish elects to have a six hour, 10pm to 4am Vigil is not the issue. What the Statutes are "clearly" saying is that (at least in theory) - through the catechesis, the neocatechumens are initiated into a deeper understanding and participation in the meaning of Easter, and (presumably) because the NCW is meant to be implemented in parishes, "in this way" the parish will be stimulated to celebrate the Vigil more richly. But this can only be true if those same neocatechumens are participating in the parish Vigil.
You seem to be implying that the only way for the parish to have a richer celebration of the Vigil is by observing and then imitating the separate NCW one. But, as I have just demonstrated, this is not at all necessary and in fact clearly not what the Statutes mean.
The problem is that the NCW celebrate a second, unapproved vigil celebration in a parish - a celebration that is not permitted. Everything that the Statutes desire about the Vigil participation can and should occur within the context of the broader parish celebration.. In that way, any benefits of the NCW undertanding and observation of the Paschal celebration can be experienced by the broader local Church.
Dear Anonymous at 9:36 pm,
DeleteMany of the neocatechumens in the community are baptized Catholics like yourselves. The fact that the Easter Vigil is mentioned in our Statutes means that we are to celebrate the Easter Vigil in a way that is different from the parish Easter Vigil. The Statutes stated:
"...... the neocatechumens ARE INITIATED GRADUALLY 45 into an ever more perfect participation in all that the holy night signifies, celebrates and realizes.
§ 3. In this way, the Neocatechumenate will stimulate the parish to have a richer celebration of the Paschal Vigil.46"
This is certainly not speaking of any Easter Vigil in the parish. If it was, there is no need to initiate the candidate into something that they have been attending every year. The Way holds a six hour Easter Vigil, and we have an outline that comes with it.
Diana @ 4:16 which statutes are you using? 2002 or 2008?
DeleteThank you
"The fact that the Easter Vigil is mentioned in our Statutes means that we are to celebrate the Easter Vigil in a way that is different from the parish Easter Vigil. "
DeleteThis is where you are completely mistaken. The fact that the Easter Vigil is mentioned is certainly not a justification for a separate Vigil. If it were intended that there was a separate Vigil, the Statutes would say just that - in the same way that the Statutes clearly articulate the separate small community Eucharistic celebration (that is incidentally meant to be part of the Sunday liturgical action of the parisha nd open to other faithful). If merely the mention was required, then any mention of Eucharist would have sufficed to justify the separate small community Eucharist.
"This is certainly not speaking of any Easter Vigil in the parish"
There is not "any Easter Vigil in the parish", because there is to be only ONE Easter Vigil in the parish.
You avoid the fact that this is a clear written instruction of the Church, as the Easter Vigil represents the unity of the ecclesial community of the parish. There would need to be specific mention of a specific permission to vary this instruction - and this is entirely absent in the Statutes. In fact, if you were to scour all sources of information on the NCW including the catechetical directory, and the interviews and "homilies" of Kiko, you would find no direct reference to the NCW being permitted to hold a separate celebration. You simply do it, and the fact that you get away with it is your justification.
So, once again you will refuse to be corrected (loved) by your own Statutes, and this, once again becomes reason for the Catholic faithful to be suspicious and cautious about the motives and intentions of the "Way".
Dear Diana,
DeleteIs this 6 hr Easter Vigil done only on Guam? The NCW community in my stateside home parish does not do it separately. And to my knowledge it is not 6 hours.
Thank you for your response.
Dear Anonymous at 7:07 am,
DeleteThen you need to correct your catechists. The Easter Vigil that the Way celebrates lasts until dawn. It is an all night vigil. According to the weblink below in which Kiko Arguello was interviewed:
Q: The liturgical celebrations of the Neocatechumenal Way introduce a series of novelties that, in some cases, have caused friction, such as the change in the moment of the exchange of peace, the way of offering Communion, nocturnal celebrations, and especially the Easter Vigil, in which the celebration lasts until dawn. Could you explain the reason for these changes?
Arguello:..........In regard to the Easter Vigil, the Council itself has contributed to its recovery. Many theologians and liturgists have emphasized the importance of this night in which one doesn't sleep, the Easter night of our salvation. The celebration of this night has helped many brothers in Madrid, for example, who would go on vacation after Good Friday -- in Spain those days are holidays -- to live Holy Week in a new way.
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=28474
In the following weblink, Kiko Arguello explains that the way the NCW celebrates the Easter Vigil is NOT 2 hours long. According to Kiko Arguello:
"Regarding article 12, the communities from all over the world are helping the parishes to rediscover the Paschal Vigil. The Holy See, in the fundamental document on the Paschal Vigil, Paschalis Solemnitatis, expressed sorrow in seeing that the Paschal Vigil, instead of being "the mother of all vigils" and the center of the liturgical life of the Faithful, has been reduced instead in many parishes to an evening Mass."
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-backs-neocatechumenal-way-liturgy
So, if you are walking in the NCW in the States, and your Easter Vigil is only 2 hours long, then you need to correct your catechists.
Dear Anonymous at 11:56 pm,
DeleteThe Easter Vigil that the NCW celebrates is one with the Parish just as the Eucharist around the world is one. There is no separation. In the Body of Christ, there is no separation because physical location does not hinder the celebrations of Catholics worldwide. We have Articles 12 and 13 in the Statutes to follow, which is approved by the Holy See. So, again, if you feel that we are not following the rules, you have two choices. You can 1) write your letter of complaint to the Vatican or 2) gather all the people in your parish, approach your parish priest and let him know that all of you want to celebrate the Easter Vigil in the way the NCW does it and together with the NCW. If you feel that number 2 will make you one with us, then by all means go ahead.
Dear Anonymous at 11:25 pm,
DeleteYou stated: "Diana @ 4:16 which statutes are you using? 2002 or 2008?"
We are using the 2008. The 2008 Statutes was given and read to all communities. Younger communities who were just born were encouraged to purchase the 2008.
How interesting. I was reading an older interview with Kiko Arguello (found here: ) and noticed this little bit:
Delete"But our feeling, as already happens in many parishes, is not to have a parallel or our own vigil but to renew the Easter vigil with all its force and sacramental fullness of the signs, as the Roman Missal says. But to do that there's need of a path, sacramental propaedeutics. Pope John Paul II once said that he saw the community as a 'sacramental laboratory' where the liturgical renewal of the Council could gradually be brought about. "
So there you go. After all that, we can now see that even Kiko admits that there shouldn't be a separate Vigil for the community!
Interview is here by the way : http://www.christusrex.org/www2/ncw/english/30dias.htm
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:10 pm,
DeleteAnd in order for the Easter Vigil to be renewed, it is always best to start the change slowly.
What do you mean "it is always best to start the change slowly. "? Are you implying that to "start slowly", you need to have your own separate "parallel" vigil? So now you are contradicting kiko? Thats dangerous isn't it. He clearly says that there shouldn't be a "parallel" Vigil of your own. So who is lying?
DeleteIs this what it's all about Diana? Change! Are you admitting that there will be a total change and control?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:57 pm,
DeleteNot control. Christ is always the one in control of His Church. But definitely a change. The Church needs more people to become holy and even people to live out their baptismal promises to evangelize and spread the Gospels.
Dear Anonymous at 6:32 pm,
DeleteTo start slowly means to introduce to people the riches of the Easter Vigil which the Pope had found in the Way.
If the Pope found the riches of the Easter Vigil in the Way, then why doesn't he celebrate it the way the NCW does it in Rome? This change should start at the top.
DeleteDear Diana, that is not an answer. Do you disagree with Kiko when he says that there should not be a parallel or separate Vigil celebration?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:59 am,
DeleteOf course, And there is no separate vigils. All vigils are one just as all Mass are one.
Dear Anonymous at 10:49 pm,
DeleteRome's Easter Vigil is much longer than your parish Easter Vigil. Rome's Easter Vigil is about 3 hours long.
Hi Diana,
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Pope Francis called Kiko Arguello a saint should be written up in this Sunday's Umatuna. This is great news for those in the NCW but it should be shared with all the Catholic faithful on island.
Eleanor Aguon
Eleanor Aguon, I'm sure it will be there in the Umatuna for all of Guam's Catholic faithful to read. Looking forward to reading the whole story.
DeleteDiana, I see your point that Kiko is a saint. He is already or a future saint, who knows.
ReplyDeleteYou read in Ephesian 4: "11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ."
I like these verses, because very clear. It says the saints are those who are equipped for the work of ministry. If Kiko is equipped for the work of ministry then why would not he be a saint?
In 1 Corinthian 9 you find this: "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave to the churches of Galatia. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."
Because the saints are in Jerusalem, I guess in the heavenly Jerusalem, we have to make collection for them. It is just right. Would not the saints deserve our gift? I always put some money into the collection box of Santa Teresita, because she is a saint in the heaven who intercedes for me. She deserves all what you or me can give her!
1 Corinthian 16 says: "7 Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." Also , "11 You will be enriched in every way for your great generosity, which will produce thanksgiving to God through us; 12 for the rendering of this ministry not only supplies the needs of the saints but also overflows with many thanksgivings to God."
When you cheerfully give your contribution to saints like Santa Teresita and Kiko, then you are also enriched. God gave you these saints in the first place! The only thing I don't understand is that in the early church there were these many saints of Jerusalem. They became saints when Saul/St Paul was not a Christian yet and he persecuted them, among others, and many had to die. But who exactly these saints were? When, under the reign of which Pope, were they canonized into the Catholic Church? Which days are their feast days? It is a little confusing that we know everything about the saints of today like Santa Teresita, but we don't know much about the saints of Jerusalem, including Kiko.
You see Diana, I am confused as ever, but I made my effort to look up the Gospel online, New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition, because this is one advantage of having an Internet connection. You have access to all Scriptures! I don't mind subscribing for Internet any bit and the monthly fee is not so high. Let the Lord bless our Internet connection to the online Bible!
Joane Santos
Dear Joane,
DeleteThe Church recognizes two definitions of saints. The Holy Saints are those in Heaven whom the Church has proclaimed because they lived virtuous lives. However, the members of the Church are also called "saints". According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," and her members are called "saints."
The members of the Church are also called "saints". Now, what is left for us to do is to live a life of virtue, to imitate Christ, and be holy as God called us to be holy. Then, we can be "Holy Saints." The Pope called Kiko a saint because he is a saint who spreads the Gospel. Perhaps someday, he would be a Holy Saint like St. John Paul II.
So Kiko is only a member of the church? I think it is more like that. Think of Jerusalem as the place where the saints live as I quoted from the Gospel. The heavenly Jerusalem is the home of the saints! Perhaps the home of Kiko, as well, as of Santa Teresita. Which way did the Pope mention him?
DeleteJoane Santos
Dear Joane,
DeleteAs members of the Church and part of the Body of Christ, we are all called "saints". Even St. Paul used that word in reference to the Church on earth. God's kingdom or the Heavenly Jerusalem is our true home. This earth was never our home. But we enter God's kingdom through faith and with God's grace. The Pope called Kiko a saint as one who follows God's will on earth.
Thank God we have you to interpret the words of the Pope, Diana. Albeit that they are the supposed words of the pope reportedly written down in note form by an Archbishop, apparently passed on to others at a convivence, relayed by a lay itinerant, to a NCW leader who wrote them into a post-script of a letter that was sent to the local NCW and then posted on this blog. But, obviously they are irrefutably true and evidently meaning exactly what you would have them mean.
DeleteMy visit to the CCOG meeting tonight in Agat went pretty much as expected. Tim is recycling the content of his blog in lengthy monologues at these meetings for uninitiated audiences. Emotions are easily stirred higher and higher. People are professionally radicalized by flaming words to line up for a particular agenda. Then comes the request to support an account for paying an attorney... Hmm. Of course, there is some consternation when opposing views are voiced, but people are getting tired at the late hour. Thus, the show is over, curtains are rolling down, everybody is going home.
ReplyDeleteAfter the meeting, I got a few minutes to talk to Vangie Lujan, the secretary of CCOG, who would like to meet Archbishop Apuron. I promised her that I would publish her request. I personally would like to see some progress to be made towards reconciliation. It definitely would help if CCOG could cut back the language of radical demands and replace it by requests of moderate intentions. Talking war should be replaced by talking peace. It is just my personal opinion.
For the record, as a lay person speaking for myself I gave thanks to God that He allowed me to be there in Agat last night. I called it a superstition spread by radicals that Jesus was a "sinner". How could he have been one if He was born of a holy women and being holy himself? Jesus is the Son of God who died for the sinners! It is a superstition that NCW teaches that Jesus was a sinner. If it would be true, I would stop attending immediately.
DeleteA particular audiotape record that was played at the meeting reflects the opinion of someone who is way out of line. He might be a radical who claims to follow NCW, but NCW does not follow him. The simple reason is that NCW does not follow radicals. It is just sad that CCOG, on the contrary, seems to follow the most radical elements among its ranks.
Because of the charges uttered at the CCOG meeting, I had to explain that people attending the NCW are sisters and brothers in Catholic faith, our presbyters are Catholic priests and our Eucharist celebrations are holy Catholic masses. Jesus teaches love and not war against your denomination. We need to keep repeating these basic facts until all our sisters and brothers who are blinded by propaganda will see.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteYou stated: " We need to keep repeating these basic facts until all our sisters and brothers who are blinded by propaganda will see"
.
Christ told His Apostles that those who do not receive nor hear them.....to depart from them, wipe the dust from under your feet as testimony against them, and move on. You cannot change people who already have an agenda to remove the Archbishop and the NCW. They speak war because they have no desire for reconciliation. You can only pray for them.
Zoltan, I saw your 9:27AM comment was also on Junglewatch. I thought Diana told you to stay out of the jungle. Why do you insist on going there?
DeleteBTW: That "particular audiotape" that you heard was Fr. Angelo Veraldi a Neocatechumenal seminary professor from Italy who was instructing the deacons and not some "radical who claims to follow NCW."
Dear Anonymous at 11:02 pm,
DeleteZoltan has free will as we all do. I commend him in trying to bring some understanding to the jungle. He was trying to tell everyone that the NCW does NOT believe that Jesus was a sinner. The audiotape of the Archbishop in Toto also stated that Jesus was not a sinner. Zoltan who walks in the Way said that Jesus was not a sinner. I, Diana, who also walks in the Way say that Jesus is not a sinner. What Zoltan was trying to tell you that there are false rumors going around saying that the NCW believes that Jesus was a sinner.
Father Angelo Veraldi is an Italian who does not speak English very well. This is what he said according to the recording in Chuck White's blog:
"very action, action of liturgy. Liturgical action. Also when we sight the son by ourself, because as a church we pray for everybody. And then there is Jesus Christ inside, inside of the sons (signs?). Sons (signs?) must be referred to, to Jesus Christ. Is a prefiguration. He experienced, he experience the son (sign?) before ourself. Before me and before you, Jesus Christ experience the Son (sign?). He experience the love of God, the Father. He experienced the forgiveness of the Father, because he was a sinner. He became a sinner. Willing, not because he was imposed, because he was a sinner, willingly, willing a sinner."
As anyone can see, his English is incoherent. He brought up "prefigurement", which means that he may have been speaking about someone else other than Christ. Moses, Isaac, and Joshua were all prefigurments of Christ and were all sinners. The ones who started the false rumors were Chuck White and Tim Rohr. They were the ones who spread the false rumor that the NCW believes that Christ was a sinner. But you all heard the audiotape of the Archbishop saying that Jesus was not a sinner. You heard Zoltan saying that Jesus was not a sinner. I am saying that Jesus was not a sinner.
During the meeting, someone yelled at me, I was accused that I am a colonizer and should go back to my country. Nobody countered that. I requested opportunity from Vangie Lujan to respond, who moderated the discussion, based on personal attack. Vangie wanted to allow me to respond to the charge, but Greg Perez overrode her and closed the discussion. It was after the end of the meeting when I told Vangie that I was denied to respond to a personal attack and this could come out in the newspapers. I did not mention PDN or any particular newspaper, so she does not remember correctly. It was not a threat to her. It is interesting what Vangie Lujan is now saying that she felt threatened by my comment after the Agat meeting of CCoG last Thursday. All I said was that the press may learn about the antics of CCoG. What is it so threatening about a news report of a public meeting? Perhaps, maybe only perhaps, could something shameful have happened there that CCoG wants to keep hidden?
DeleteUnder the circumstances and the accusations made at Junglewatch, I am compelled to give a more detailed account of what exactly happened last night at the CCoG meeting. I don't provide a full transcript out of respect for the people of Agat who were mostly innocent bystanders of the events. Shortly after the lengthy presentations of Mr. Rohr and Mr. Perez I raised my hand and asked a few questions. I add explanations to my questions here in order to indicate the context.
1. Where is the evidence that Fr. Gofigan's release from the Santa Barbara church is Dededo was related to the NCW? Explanation: Mr. Rohr published a pamphlet, apparently without ISBN number, about the case, but there is no evidence anywhere of the involvement of the NCW. What is the source of this pamphlet? Is this, perhaps, a gossip and hearsay only?
2. Is it true that there was talk among the members of the previous financial council for the Archbishop of selling the Yona seminary? Explanation: There is a lot of talk about the seminary, but not much about protecting its function. Is it not possible that what happened there was for protecting its function as a seminary for the foreseeable future?
3. What is the reason of spreading superstition about the NCW: claiming NCW teaches that "Jesus was a sinner"? Explanation: a conceptual charge of heresy was made based on a taped speech of one single person who obviously cannot speak English very well. However, no one spoke directly to this person and asked him if he believed that Jesus was a sinner.
4. How would CCoG increase transparency in parish finances if parishioners are encouraged to shortcut collection and give donations directly to the priests in envelopes? Explanation: CCoG has an item on its agenda to increase transparency and accountability. If CCoG president Mr. Perez encourages the above mentioned practice, is he not in apparent contradiction with the goals of CCoG?
5. What is wrong with presbyters and the celebration of St. Patrick's day? Explanation: It was claimed that presbyters are not priests and St. Patrick's Day is not a Catholic holiday. Perhaps, the leader of CCoG was not aware that Catholic presbyters are consecrated priests and St. Patrick's Day is a great feast day in the mainland and in many Catholic countries around the world.
6. How could one Catholic group call for war against another Catholic group? How could the same person claim that the war he is suggesting is a "war against the devil"? Explanation: Jesus teaches love and peace, but not war against your own denomination. Perhaps, Mr. Perez has never learned about Jesus as a teacher of all Christians?
I did not get answer for any of these questions, except the 2nd. Mr. Rohr said that the financial council did not have authority to sell the property. This was a smart sentence. Unfortunately, it was not a real answer to the yes/no question that should have been a clear yes or no! What we got instead, was simple evasion. Then, sensing that sand got into the CCoG machinery, Mr. Rohr gave a noticeable hand sign. He did not know that hard-of-hearing people, like myself, are alert of nonverbal communication. I was sitting in the front row, so I just saw everything! After the sign was secretly given, someone stood up, started shrieking and yelling at me. I won't repeat what this person uttered. It was a clear instance of a prearranged xenophobic attack, some kind of Plan B or escape mechanism in case of trouble for the masterminds of the meeting. I had to call attention that I am an American citizen who cannot be sent "back to your country". Well, I don't have to say that an angry mobbing mood developed in an instant and I felt seriously threatened for my safety. Meantime Mr. Rohr was smiling like a sphinx as if teasing me, "you see it is not me, I am not doing anything..." This lynching atmosphere felt obviously good for him and his smile showed that he enjoyed it.
DeleteAt further comments from several people I was also accused of being a colonizer and someone who "changes the official Catechism of the Catholic Church". This turn of events was greatly puzzling. I requested time from CCoG secretary Vangie Lujan, who moderated the meeting, to respond to these new charges based on personal attack. We all know the parliamentary rules, called Robert's Rules, that grant an opportunity of rebuttal for personal attack. First, she wanted to allow me to respond but a quick hand sign was given, this time by Mr. Perez, indicating that my request should be denied. I could see this very well. It was a true shame that Robert's Rule was replaced by the Bully's Rule, despite the good intention of the moderator.
In Mt 23:37 Jesus laments: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you (...) stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
After the closing prayer, when people started to leave to premises, I came to Vangie and told her that I was denied the opportunity of responding to a public personal attack and this could be in the newspapers tomorrow. I did not mention PDN or any particular newspaper. She did not say she took it as a threat. On the contrary, she shared with me that she had a degree in mathematics and I congratulated her. We got a friendly conversation. She asked me to help her to make an appointment with the Archbishop. I told her it was impossible for me, as I have no connection to the chancery. I asked her why CCoG does not separate its concerns related to the Archbishop from those related to the NCW. I would be glad to help in any issue, according to my best knowledge, relating to the NCW, but I cannot speak for the Archbishop. I think she understood this. I said good night when she left.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteThank you for allowing us to hear your side. I will post your story in an entry post.
Dear Zoltan,
DeletePlease explain what you meant in your original account of the CCOG meeting from 7/23 @10:11PM when you wrote: "After the meeting, I got a few minutes to talk to Vangie Lujan, the secretary of CCOG, who would like to meet Archbishop Apuron. I promised her that I would publish her request."
On 7/23 you gave the impression that you were willing to help CCOG arrange a meeting with the archbishop by PROMISING to "publish her request."
But in your 7/25 @ 9:49AM comment, you claim that Vangie "asked me to help her to make an appointment with the Archbishop. I told her it was impossible for me, as I have no connection to the chancery."
Which one is it, Zoltan?
Did you make that promise as you first wrote on 7/23?
Or did you tell her it was impossible as you claim on 7/25?
You almost sound like a politician, making promises you can't keep …
Dear Diana.
ReplyDeleteIn past months references were made to the infamous priest from Saipan a certain Fr.Matthew Blockley. By all accounts Fr.Blockley self appointed himself to two parishes in New York State. It is unheard of in any catholic diocese of which I know of any priest appointing himself to a parish. Fr. Blockley self appointed.
In 1996 I remember this priest. He is a very delusional priest who seemed mostly to be interested in importing Italian marble and European religious antiques into a pacific culture. He had studied in Rome but appeared to have no interest in learning the culture of our Mariana islands. Bizare situations were happening. He ordered saipan shipping companies and their European associates to crate ship volumes of his European shopping trips to CNMi. He was chartering planes between Saipan Guam Manila carrying his personal shopping. There was one particular time prior to a parish fiesta he wanted to see green grass. He ordered the grass to be painted green. People all ended up with green shoes. He laughed informing us since he had come to work in the missions he had to be creative. Really delusional.
Today I read Fr. blockley is seen as some kind of an advocate for the poor at the same time he denounces our archbishop. Completely delusional off his head. But people listen to this nut case.
We read about people desiring Rome to retire our Archbishop. No. Rome should silence the delusional Fr.Blockley . Thank you Diana. James camacho.
Dear James
ReplyDelete"but appeared to have no interest in learning the culture of our Mariana islands"
Reminiscent of Kiko imposing his "culture" on the rest of the world.
Dear Anonymous at 12:24 am,
DeleteKiko is not imposing anything on anyone. No one is forcing you to join the Way.
ReplyDeleteFr. Blockley is a misunderstood priest.
Very kind priest with a vision for Guam Saipan . He sees a unification of Guam & Saipan creating Archdiocese of Agana Guam & Mariana islands. Saipan he told us does not need a bishop only an episcopal vicar appointed by Guam. Fr. Blockley not denounce Archbishop Apuron only bishop camacho he wanted removed.
DeleteFr. Blockley presents an interesting thesis on the unification of two dioceses. It should be explored as it has possibilities towards the future for Guam Saipan. Region needs a vision for the future it needs a blue print. This is not being given by archbishop or NCW. We need new ways for the future of our church .we need our own priests our own bishop our own catholic church.
Fr. Blockley is a great dreamer. No way unification possible.
Delete
ReplyDeleteDiana, just read Matt blockley sending out rude embalming messages directed at you. Will notify Apostolic delegate about him .
DianaJuly 24, 2015 at 6:16 AM
ReplyDelete"Kiko is not imposing anything on anyone. No one is forcing you to join the Way."
Reply
In my city, the Pastor (who has been duped by the NCW into believing their Eucharist has been approved by Rome) has encouraged many widows into the NCW who wholeheartedly believe that the Pastor would never lead them into something that was wrong. They left a Mass where we faithfully followed the Roman Missal, to join in a Mass created by Kiko (a man, just a man). At no time has the NCW provided any proof of permission.
So, it is not a case where "no one is forced to join the NCW" - it is a case where many in the NCW naively teach what is simply NOT TRUE, leading the flock astray. Why they can't prove that the Mass is allowed by simply stating WHERE in the Statutes of 2008 the additions and deletions in the Mass are, is simply because the permission DOES NOT EXIST.
Perhaps, it is time for the NCW to find a new leader who will be faithful to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. (Check out the speech of Pope Francis on "leaders being proud as peacocks.") NCW Members, take courage and demand to see the proof in the Statutes of 2008.
Dear Anonymous at 4:10 am,
DeleteI have told you so many times that only the Vatican can discipline and correct us. If you feel that we are not following the liturgical rules, then write to the Vatican. So many have already submitted their letters in the last couple of years. Did you hear any response from the Vatican???? That alone should have told you something. Their silence means that you are wrong.
"Their silence means that you are wrong. "
DeleteNo, the silence means that Kiko has bought loyalty, and the Church is being betrayed from within
Dear Diana,
DeleteBUT, ROME HAS SPOKEN:
"SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands."
The Statutes (2008) must show the permission for the additions and the deletions in the NCW Mass.
Again, please show where. Page? Number? T
Thank you
Dear Anonymous at 12:18 pm,
DeleteThe Church belongs to Christ. Do you honestly think that Christ's Church will be betrayed and fall after Christ made a promise that not even the gates of Hell will destroy it????
Dear Anonymous at 1:24 pm,
DeleteJust under this thread, an NCW member commented that her community does not celebrate the Easter Vigil in 6 hours. I told her to correct him/her to correct their catechists. The way the NCW celebrates the Easter Vigil is supposed to last until dawn. That is the kind of correction that Pope Francis meant when he spoke of the 7th point.
Dear Diana at 1.38. You said "fall". I did not. Yes, the Church will be betrayed just as Judas betrated Christ. But the victory is won already, so no, the Church will not fall, even though it may look like it has.
DeleteThere are many instances of the Church beng betrayed from within. Kiko's work is just a recent and good example
Dear Anonymous at 12:38 am,
DeleteThat was a question to YOU. I asked you, " Do you honestly think that Christ's Church will be betrayed and fall after Christ made a promise that not even the gates of Hell will destroy it????"
This is Christ's Church, not yours. Christ is the one who leads His Church into where He wants it to go. That means that if He wants the NCW to be in His Church, then His will be done.
The sexual abuse of children and others by clergy is a betrayal of the Church from within. Just because it is a reality does not mean that Christ has intended it for his Church. Kiko and the NCW are a reality, but that does not mean that Christ has willed that they are present in the Church the way they are.
DeleteAnd I answered your question. I said "You said "fall". I did not. Yes, the Church will be betrayed just as Judas betrayed Christ. But the victory is won already, so no, the Church will not fall, even though it may look like it has."
Dear Anonymous at 10:35 am,
DeleteYou compare the sexual abuse of children to the NCW???? How is that??? The founder of the NCW was never accused of sexual abuse, which is an immoral act.
No, I used the example of sexual abuse to show that the Church can be and is betrayed from within. I sis this because you claimed that I had said that Christs Church will be betrayed and fall. Of course, I didn't say that.
DeleteYou then said that " That means that if He (Christ) wants the NCW to be in His Church, then His will be done", implying that because the NCW is a reality of the Church it is evidently Christ's wish that it is so. So I showed you an example of a reality of the Church that is not possibly Christ's wish for his Church. In this way, your logic is shown to be stupid.
Dear Anonymous at 10:04 pm,
DeleteSo, if you believe that the Church will not fall, then you should have no problems with the NCW.
Dear Diana
ReplyDeleteSEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands.
Re yours of 1:40 PM
"I told her to correct him/her to correct their catechists. The way the NCW celebrates the Easter Vigil is supposed to last until dawn. That is the kind of correction that Pope Francis meant when he spoke of the 7th point. "
Anything in the NCW, including the Sacrifice of the Mass, that is not according to the Statutes of 2008, needs correction; otherwise, it is disobedience.
Think about it: The NCW stands at the Eucharistic Prayer and is prohibited from kneeling in adoration before Jesus, because a man, just a man, has told you to.
The NCW presbyter does not consume both the Body and Blood prior to the rest of the congregation according to the approved Liturgical Books, because a man, just a man, has told him to.
The sacred altar is decorated with flowers (and sometimes fruit - yes fruit) and a minorah
because a man, just a man, has told you to.
One cannot receive Communion on the tongue, because a man, just a man, has given those instructions. .................etc.
Remember: The man is just a man.
Ist Commandment:
I am the Lord thy God - thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.
The NCW here constantly asks "who is your god? what is your god?"
May it not be man, just a man.
Take courage You corrected the NCW "time" of the Easter Vigil. You can also correct the NCW in regards to the deletions and additions in their Mass which are not permitted. Is not the proper celebration of the Mass, according to the approved Liturgical Books, more important than the "time?"
Furthermore,
We are all waiting for the actual speech the Pope gave - Hearsay is rarely accurate. In this age of various electronics, I find it interesting that this speech is not readily available.
Dear Anonymous at 3:40 pm,
DeleteThink about this for a minute. It was Pope Francis who ceased all investigations into the Way. In February, 2015, Pope Francis gave three recommendations to the Way. None of those recommendations has to do with the liturgy. Then the NCW received a four page letter from Giuseppe listing 7 points from the Pope. And you think that the 7th point has to do with the liturgy?
Liturgical abuse is far worse than the correction I gave to the anonymous NCW member in the States for not following the Easter Vigil in the manner the NCW celebrates. Why? Because even if the Easter Vigil was celebrated for two hours as in the parish, that is still a legitimate celebration recognized by the Church despite that it is not the six hour vigil that Kiko Arguello and the Holy See recommended for the NCW.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe Yours 5:58PM
"And you think that the 7th point has to do with the liturgy?"
Reply:
But you think that the 7th point has "nothing" to do with the liturgy. Yet, the 2008 Statutes, ITSELF, deals with liturgy. One cannot exclude the very real possibility that the NCW Mass needs correction.
How is it that the changing of the "Sign of Peace" is described in detail in the 2008 Statutes, but the other additions and deletions, which are greater in importance, are not even mentioned? Do not the other additions and deletions warrant the same consideration?
According to the "7th," the Statutes of 2008 is Rome's tool for correction for the NCW, which must include their Mass simply because the Statutes itself does. Dismissing this is misleading.
Perceived permission is not permission.
Pope Francis ceased the investigations into the Way's Mass. He already had more than enough info, so the investigation was excessive. Pope Francis is a man of no excesses. So the argument that this gives the NCW permission to celebrate the Mass with all the deletions and additions, is dead.
Dear Anonymous at 10:53 pm,
DeleteThat is because I took into account all other events that took place and not just look at one thing. Remember that this was a letter from Giuseppe. Giuseppe is fully aware of the persecutions of the NCW. He and Kiko are both aware that one of the contentions is the liturgy. Do you think that he would have written about the seventh point if he and Kiko were deliberately disobeying the Pope in regards to the liturgy?
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletePope Benedict XVI had asked the NCW to use their Saturday night Mass as a stepping stone into celebrating with the main church community on Sunday. This has not transpired where I live. Some that "followed" blindly from celebrating the Mass according to the Roman Missal/GIRM to a NCW Mass with additions and deletions that have never been given written permission, don't even consider the Sunday Mass anymore.
I talked with one, who used to come to daily Mass, and now doesn't. She said she has NO TIME for daily Mass anymore - the NCW takes up so much of her time, she gave daily Mass up. Wow.
Dear Anonymous at 11:10 pm,
DeletePope Benedict XVI said no such thing. Rather, he told the NCW that they were to attend the Parish Mass at least once a month. Of course, some of us attend the Sunday Mass more than once a month due to our involvement with the parish as we volunteer to be Eucharistic ministers, lectors, alter servers, and even choir members in the parish.
I find that difficult to believe that the person who attend daily Mass cannot attend anymore. It could not be the preparation because preparation usually starts at 7:30 pm. Daily Mass starts earlier than that. As a matter of fact, three people in my community attend daily Mass in addition to the Eucharistic celebration in the Way and to Sunday Mass.
Dear Diana at 8.14. Anon at 11.10 is correct Pope Benedict did in fact advise the NCW that the celebrations in the small community had one goal - to bring the believer into the celebration of the larger parish body.
DeleteThe following is from the address given by Pope Benedict to the NCW on 20 January 2012:
"As your Statute state, “the Eucharist is essential to the Neocatechumenate, since this is a post-baptismal catechumenate lived in small communities” (art. 13 § 1). Precisely to encourage people who have drifted away from the Church or have not received an appropriate formation to draw close to the riches of sacrament life, the Neocatechumens may celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in the small community, after the first Vespers of Sunday, according to the dispositions of the diocesan bishop (cf. Statute, art. 13 § 2). However, every Eucharistic celebration is an action of the one Christ together with his one Church and is therefore essentially open to all who belong to his Church. This public character of the Blessed Eucharist is expressed in the fact that every celebration of Holy Mass is ultimately directed by the bishop as a member of the Episcopal College, responsible for a specific local Church (cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 26). It is the task of the celebration in the small communities — regulated by the liturgical books that must be faithfully followed, with the details approved in the Statue of the Way — to help all who follow the Neocatechumenal itinerary to perceive the grace of being inserted in the saving mystery of Christ which makes possible a Christian witness that can assume radical features. At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented (cf. Statute, art. 6). Nevertheless in this process it is also important not to be separate from the parish community, precisely in the celebration of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all, where the Lord embraces us in the different states of our spiritual maturity and unites us in the one bread that makes us one body (cf. 1 Cor 10:16f.).
ReplyDeleteDear Diana:
Re:"Do you think that he would have written about the seventh point if he and Kiko were deliberately disobeying the Pope in regards to the liturgy?"
Yes, because to omit the 7th point would be dishonest. And,
I think they thoroughly but mistakenly believed they had good reasons to do what they did to the Mass. But, I think they are gradually seeing there is a problem.
I think that people who realize that they are wrong in regard to something, find great relief in being exposed. This gives them a chance to right the wrong before they die. (Much like the pedophile priests - it fosters a cleansing in which jail, with repentance, is preferable to hell, or much like Scot Hahn who, in his earlier years,talked Catholics into being Protestants, and after his conversion, spends his time trying to undo as much as possible all the harm he did to the Catholic Church by now promoting the Catholic faith..)
Sincerely,
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRE: "Do you think that he would have written about the seventh point if he and Kiko were deliberately disobeying the Pope in regards to the liturgy?"
Perhaps he felt he had no choice.
To omit the 7th point would show the rest of the NCW which were present and heard the 7th point, that he and Kiko were deliberately avoiding the need for correction.
Dear Anonymous at 4:20 pm,
DeleteIf I was deliberately disobedient as the jungle claimed, I would have hidden the 7th point to make others think that I was obedient. The NCW have always claimed that it has always been obedient to the liturgy. So, there should be no qualms about publishing the 7th point because everyone makes all kinds of errors. Catechists have been known to make errors in many things in the Way In the steps or stages of the community. But you think it is the liturgy.
Dear Diana,
DeleteYes many think it is the liturgy that should be corrected.
And, you probably think so too, but are not allowed to say so. Is that why you refuse to post part of Cardinal Ratzinger's book "Spirit of the Liturgy?"
It would be interesting to hear who do you think Cardinal Ratzinger was talking about when he wrote: about "groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling."
In Cardinal Ratzinger’s book The Spirit of the Liturgy from the chapter on the Body and the Liturgy:
“There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. “It doesn’t suit our culture” they say…..it’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more…St. Augustine said that the humility of Christ and His love, which went as far as the Cross, have freed us and we kneel before that humility. The kneeling of Christians is an expression of Christian culture which transforms the existing culture through a new and keeper knowledge and experience of God. (page 184)"
"The man who learns to believe, learns also to kneel; and, a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling, would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself. (page 194)"
Sincerely and with hope of change
Dear Anonymous at 11:30 pm,
DeleteThe liturgy in the Way has already been corrected. Have you ever compared the 2002 and 2008 Statutes? There were no mention of kneeling in the 2002 Statutes and no mention of kneeling in the approved 2008 Statutes.
When you read Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, do you think he was also referring to the Eastern Catholics who do not kneel? Cardinal Ratzinger celebrated the Eucharist in the NCW and he also did not kneel.
Dear Diana 727 am
ReplyDeletePope Benedict XVI in his Audience with the NCW January 20, 2012 said this in regards to "their" Eucharist:
"This applies very specially to the celebration of the Eucharist, which, as the culmination of Christian life, is also the hinge of its rediscovery, for which the Neocatechumenate strives. As your Statute state, “the Eucharist is essential to the Neocatechumenate, since this is a post-baptismal catechumenate lived in small communities” (art. 13 § 1). Precisely to encourage people who have drifted away from the Church or have not received an appropriate formation to draw close to the riches of sacrament life, the Neocatechumens may celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in the small community, after the first Vespers of Sunday, according to the dispositions of the diocesan bishop (cf. Statute, art. 13 § 2). However, every Eucharistic celebration is an action of the one Christ together with his one Church and is therefore essentially open to all who belong to his Church. This public character of the Blessed Eucharist is expressed in the fact that every celebration of Holy Mass is ultimately directed by the bishop as a member of the Episcopal College, responsible for a specific local Church (cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 26). IT IS THE TASK OF THE CELEBRATION IN THE SMALL COMMUNITIES - REGULATED BY THE LITURGICAL BOOKS THAT MUST BE WITH THE DETAILS APPROVED IN THE STATUTE OF THE WAY — to help all who follow the Neocatechumenal itinerary to perceive the grace of being inserted in the saving mystery of Christ which makes possible a Christian witness that can assume radical features. At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented (cf. Statute, art. 6). Nevertheless in this process it is also important not to be separate from the parish community, precisely in celebration the of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all, where the Lord embraces us in the different states of our spiritual maturity and unites us in the one bread that makes us one body (cf. 1 Cor 10:16f.)."
DETAILS "APPROVED IN THE STATUTE" OF THE WAY
If the "details" such as standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, and the celebrant not consuming both the Body and Blood BEFORE the congregation receive the Eucharist is in the approved Statute of 2008, then and only then do you have the permission to do so.
The details for the change of "sign of peace" is included in the 2008 statutes; however, the more important aspects of the Mass such as the aforementioned,are not.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRe: "Cardinal Ratzinger celebrated the Eucharist in the NCW and he also did not kneel."
No celebrant is required to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer. They, however, genuflect profoundly during the Eucharistic Prayer.
During (Saint) Pope John Paul II's celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass with the NCW, in the video it shows this very vividly. It also shows the one that came with the Pope from Rome, was actually kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer.
Even though I believe the book refers to the Roman Rite, there are many Eastern Catholics who DO kneel, even though their Rite does not require it. Some, who realize the magnitude of Jesus truly present, even prostrate themselves. (Furthermore, the Eastern Catholics demonstrate the awesomeness of the Eucharist by not taking Communion in the hand.)
2007 by Pope Benedict XVI (Sacramentum Caritatus) #65:
ReplyDelete“A convincing indication of the effectiveness of Eucharistic catechesis is surely an increased sense of the mystery of God present among us. This can be expressed in concrete outward signs of reverence for the Eucharist which the process of mystagogy should inculcate in the faithful. I am thinking in general of the importance of gestures and posture, such as kneeling during the central moments of the Eucharistic Prayer.”
Cardinal Ratzinger:
“The act of kneeling during the Liturgy: Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ. Words could not replace such a confession.”
St. Francis of Assisi to all Superiors of the Friars Minor:
When the priest is offering sacrifices at the altar or the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about, everyone should kneel and give praise, glory, and honor to our Lord and God, living and true.”
Kneeling “officially signifies adoration.” (Ceremonial of Bishops Nos. 68-72 p. 36-37)
Cardinal Ratzinger's book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”:
“Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God….(to kneel before) alone occurs 59X in the New Testament, 24 of which are in the Apocalypse, the Book of Heavenly Liturgy which is presented to the Church as the “Standard of her own Liturgy.”
And:
“There is a story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain monk. The devil looked black and ugly, with frightenly thin limbs, but most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical.”
St. Anthony of Padua once proved the Real Presence to an unbeliever. A mule (which had been starved for three days) KNELT before a monstrance containing the Blessed Sacrament (held by St. Anthony), in preference to devouring a basket of tempting oats right beside.
In the article Kneeling and Faith:
…When Catholics “worship” by “bending the knee” in Eucharistic adoration, they strengthen belief in the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for themselves and for the entire Church. And when they can and do not, they weaken it…Kneeling, as an act of latria (adoration) of Jesus Christ….testifies to all four fundamental doctrines better than the act of standing…..if a person deliberately, and with full knowledge, discourages kneeling at the Consecration or genuflection before the Blessed Sacrament, he or she is “anathema” C.T.(cf.n.878) (Fr. Scanlan, Homiletic & Pastoral Review, Aug. 1994)
From St. Lucia’s memoirs (Fatima):
1917
Then the angel appeared to us for the third time. He was holding a Chalice in his hand. A Host was over it, from which fell some drops of Blood into the Chalice. Leaving the Chalice and Host suspended in mid-air, he prostrated himself on the ground, repeating this prayer three times; (the 3 children did the same)
“Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore You profoundly and offer You the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all tabernacles of the earth, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifferences by which He Himself is offended. And by the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg You the conversion of poor sinners.”
The angel then arose and holding the Chalice and the Host again, he gave the Host to Lucia, and the contents of the Chalice to Jacinta and Francisco, while he said:
“Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.”
He prostrated himself again on the ground and repeated with the children there, three times the prayer “Most Holy Trinity….” Then he disappeared. …… The three of them remained kneeling on the ground for a long while, repeating over and over again the inspired, heart-stirring prayer of the angel.
funny how Anonymous July 30, 2015 at 3:31 PM would offer such a long winded comment on kneeing in front of the Lord.
Deleteunlike us though who knee to complete a religious requirement and immediately starts sinning after the Mass.
it is he who kneels in front of the father to remember his promise......what good is our human kneeling?
ANON
Dear Anonymous 547 pm
ReplyDeleteTry as you may to justify NOT kneeling, it is not necessary to make that comment to me.
These are not MY words. These words of wisdom come from Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus, Saint Francis, Saint Anthony, Father Scanlan, and the Angel of Portugal and Sr. Lucia. Take it up with them.
I'm just passing on words from those far greater than I could ever be. Peace.
Dear Anonymous at 8:22 am,
DeleteSo, why didn't those Popes force the Eastern Catholics to kneel? I agree with Anonymous at 5:47 pm, What good is your kneeling when you go back to sinning the moment you walk out the door.
Dear Diana a 9:21 AM and Anonymous at Jul 31 5:47PM --
DeleteYou ask 'what good is kneeling when you go back to sinning the moment you walk out the door'.
One could ask the same of anything you do in church: taking communion, praying, public testimonials, going to confession, etc.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteThere are many Eastern Catholics who DO kneel, even though their Rite does not require it. Change in that Rite is surfacing even though their Rite doesn't require it. Some, who realize the magnitude of Jesus truly present, even prostrate themselves. (Furthermore, the Eastern Catholics demonstrate the awesomeness of the Eucharist by not taking Communion in the hand.)
"What good is your kneeling when you go back to sinning the moment you walk out the door. "
Sounds like you and anon. are being judgmental. When Pope Francis, Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul would kneel in front of the Blessed Sacrament, could you or would you say that to them too?
Dear Anonymous at 10:08 am,
DeleteThe Eastern Catholics do NOT kneel. According to EWTN:
"In the Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Catholic Churches standing is the norm during the Eucharistic Prayer. At the Consecration is added the customary sign of adoration in these Churches, a profound bow. In the Latin Church, however, kneeling is the sign of adoration for Christ who has just become present on the altar."
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_at_the_consecration.htm
So, why didn't these popes force the Eastern Catholics to kneel?
I like the last sentence : " In the Latin Church, however, kneeling is the sign of adoration for Christ who has just become present on the altar."
DeleteThe NCW is in the Latin Church isn't it?
Dear Anonymous at 9:48 pm,
DeleteThat is what One of the things I like about the Way. Unlike the Latin Mass Catholics who call themselves Roman Catholics, we call ourselves Catholics.
In fact, The Greek Catholic (Melchite) rite runs a Redemptoris Mater Seminary within Domus Galilaeae, and has 12 neocatechumenal communities in several Palestinian villages. There are also two Maronite communities. How beautiful that the Way caters to the entire Catholic Church and not just to one half of it.
Sorry, I think you misunderstand. The NCW is supposed to celebrate in the Roman Rite, which is to say, it is in this way part of the Latin Church
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:21 pm,
DeleteAnd we are, with the permission from the Pope regarding our celebrations.
ReplyDeleteRE: "The Eastern Catholics do NOT kneel. According to EWTN:......."
Dear Diana,
I have heard it first-hand from someone who himself goes to an Eastern Catholic Church where parishioners prostrate themselves during the Eucharistic Prayer even though it may be customary to bow, and they always "kneel" when they receive Communion. I asked him if that was the only church that was doing that, and he said no.
AGAIN: "There are many Eastern Catholics who DO kneel, even though their Rite does not require it. Change in that Rite is surfacing even though their Rite doesn't require it. Some, who realize the magnitude of Jesus truly present, even prostrate themselves. (Furthermore, the Eastern Catholics demonstrate the awesomeness of the Eucharist by not taking Communion in the hand.)"
RE: "So, why didn't these popes force the Eastern Catholics to kneel?"
Eastern Catholics are a DIFFERENT RITE - they have permission to stand. The Neocatechumenal Way claims it follows the ROMAN RITE. The Roman Rite states, during the Eucharistic Prayer, one must KNEEL if able. They are only permitted to stand, if unable to kneel for good reason.
With all the valid statements from the Popes, saints, etc. previously mentioned as to why we should be kneeling, it is hard to understand why would the NCW would believe that their way is permitted. It seems that pertinent information is being kept away from the majority of members. Surely the members would be willing to adore Jesus on their knees.
RE: " SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands."
I believe the Holy Spirit was responsible for the above statement. Sounds like He is saying "It's time."
So with that, I pray that you look carefully at the Statutes of 2008, and see that there is no permission for the many additions and deletions in the NCW Mass.
The NCW will not fall apart if they change to be loyal to Rome; however, they may lose members when they realize that mistakes are not corrected. Courage.
May His Will be done.
Shalom.
Dear Anonymous at 9:38 pm,
DeleteI already said that the way we celebrate the Eucharist is approved by the Pope. If you feel that we are in disobedience, please write your letter of complaint to the Pope and notify him that we refuse to follow YOUR correction. Request to the Vatican to correct us.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteRE: "notify him that we refuse to follow YOUR correction."
Diana,
I already have written the Vatican. I consider the "7th" the go-ahead for lowly me to correct with as much charity as possible the errors in the NCW Mass . God sees my heart, and I honestly believe I have made an earnest attempt to do so (with approved Statutes of 2008 in hand) through your blog-site.
We non-neos are asking, where in the approved Statutes of 2008 do you find permission for all the many additions and deletions in your Saturday night Mass. Sounds very reasonable. Sounds very easy to answer, if the information exists.
RE: " SEVENTH: The Neocatechumenal Way is the one that knows the most about the Christian Initiation. Consult them and, if necessary, correct the catechists, the communities…(because to correct is to love)…but correct with the Statutes in your hands."
I do appreciate your printing "most" of what I have sent. I will continue to pray that we both may desire God's Will, that we both may know God's Will, and that we both may have the strength to do God's Will.
Shalom
Dear 9:35 am,
DeleteWe already told you that we had permission from the Pope. We cannot keep going around in circles all the time. You either trust us in what we say or ask the Vatican if permission was granted.
Shalom, my friend
Very nice information.
ReplyDeleteThank you.