AnonymousApril 18, 2017 at 10:22 AM
Dear Diana, when the NCW wanted to go around Archbishop Hon about the RMS land, you had to be corrected in a painful way. Your boards were declared illegitimate and were disbanded. Now, the NCW wants to go around Archbishop Byrnes about evangelizing. Is this the right thing to do, Diana?
First of all, we never went around Archbishop Hon about the RMS property. Since the very beginning, we have been saying that ONLY Archbishop Apuron and his successor has the authority to rescind the Deed Restriction. Since the very beginning, we have been saying that ONLY Archbishop Apuron and his successor has the authority.
The jungle, on the other hand, have been claiming that Archbishop Apuron and his successor have absolutely no authority. They claimed that ONLY the NCW has the authority to rescind the Deed Restriction. And lo and behold, past events only showed that we were correct. Who was the one who rescinded the Deed Restriction? Who removed the Board of Directors and the Board of Guarantors? So, who had authority all along? If the NCW was REALLY in control as the jungle claimed, then how was it that Archbishop Byrnes was able to rescind the Deed Restriction and remove the two boards of RMS? Did we not say all along that only Archbishop Apuron and his successor are in control and only he and his successor have the authority to rescind the Deed Restriction and remove the boards? To this day, the jungle has not given any explanation as to how Archbishop Byrnes was able to rescind the Deed Restriction and remove the Board of Directors and Board of Guarantors.
Furthermore, we are not going around Archbishop Byrnes. He said not to build any new communities. To build new communities, there must be an invitation to a catechesis. The NCW is not holding any catechesis nor giving out any invitations. We are spreading the good news that Christ has risen and conquered death. We are going door to door spreading this good news and asking people if there is anyone they would like us to pray for.
The issue raised is the qualification of your catechists. They are not supposed to teach just "something" that is not in conflict with the teaching, rather they should teach what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop!
The NCW is not in conflict with what the Church teaches. The problem is YOUR interpretation. For example, it was brought out in the jungle that the catechists teaches that we are not Christians. If you look up the word "Christian" in Dictionary.com, it gives you 11 different definitions. So, the question begs...which definition is the catechists using?
The second definition of "Christian" is defined as "pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ." An example of this definition would be "Spain is a Christian country" or "There are three Christian religions: Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism".
Most of the time, the catechists do not use the second definition. They often use the fourth definition, which stated "exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike". You can call yourself a "Christian" (second definition) simply because you are Catholic, but can you say that you are "like Christ" (fourth definition of Christian)?
RCIA catechists are certified under the aegis of RCIA to teach of faith. Your catechists, on the contrary, stun the rules of RCIA, despise RCIA catechism and teach things apart from the RCIA material. Would it not be better to collaborate with RCIA to provide a consistent knowledge base about Christ and our Catholic faith to all believers?
The NCW is NOT an RCIA program. The RCIA program is only for those who are not baptized or who lack the sacraments of Holy Eucharist or Confirmation. We follow the adopted Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way. According to Title II, Chapter 1, Article 5, Section 1 of the Statutes (the bold is mine):
§ 1. The Neocatechumenate is an instrument at the service of the bishops for the rediscovery of Christian initiation by baptized adults. Among these adults, the following may be identified:10 1st. those who have drifted away from the Church; 2nd. those who have not been sufficiently evangelized and catechized; 3rd. those who desire to deepen and mature their faith; 4th. those who come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the Catholic Church.As you can see, the NCW is for those who are already baptized adults while the RCIA is a program for those who are not baptized or who lack some of the sacraments such as Holy Communion or Confirmation. We follow the approved Statutes of the Way. If we are to follow the RCIA program, then what was the purpose of the Vatican approving the Statutes and the Catechetical Directory? The Statutes and Catechetical Directory were approved by the Holy See and given to the NCW to follow. Where is it written in the Statutes that the NCW must follow the RCIA program?
When you go out to evangelize, you defy the spirit of the moratorium. The concern is that acting as a loose cannon and defying decency may result in even more conflicts and even more need of correction. Please, allow discussion of this matter, because this is relevant issue and valid concern.
You say "spirit of the moratorium". The moratorium does not have any spirit. As I pointed out, there was a "pause" in building new communities for one year. Evangelization has nothing to do with this pause or even with building new communities. We do not recruit anyone going door to door. We simply spread the Gospel of Christ. That is what evangelization means.
Why don't your catechist's just show up to be certified,. Nothing is lost if, "if' you are obedient that is.
ReplyDeleteCertification will be inevitable. Then, they can (only) do what they are certified for.
DeleteWho can certify the work of the Holy Spirit? Lol.
DeleteOff-topic perhaps, but anon 9:29am, I would think the Church herself does after discernment.
DeleteDiana or someone please correct me if I'm wrong and point to other resources please, but based on my limited understanding, isn't that the whols point of acknowledging and approving a charism and the miracles of saints and holy persons, that their acts and fruits truly are the works of the Holy Spirit?
Why should only NCW catechists be "certified"? Why not be consistent and insist on all Catholic lay organization's speakers and presenters be certified too? The Cursillo's have their Cursillo Weekend of 15 talks. The Couples for Christ have their Christian Life Program of 12 talks. The Marriage Encounter Weekend have speakers give 12 talks. And so on. While we are at it, let's require all Faith Formation teachers be certified. Not to mention all Catholic school teachers. Why stop there? Require all staff of parish offices to be certified. Why pick on only the NCW?
DeleteBefore you know it, CCOG will ask that all parents go to this certification so that they can teach their children about the Catholic faith. And also require all prospective godparents to be certified since they promise to bring up their godchildren in faith when necessary. Has all the members of CCOG and LFM been certified? They should so that they have a foundation and basis to question one's faith. Just saying.
DeleteWHAT'S SO WRONG WITH NCW SIMPLY SPREADING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!! WHAT'S SO WRONG WITH THAT??? STOP THE HATE, READING THE JUNGLE BLOG, THE PEOPLE CALL THEMSELVES CONCERNED CATHOLICS OF GUAM, MAKES ME THINK I DON'T WANT TO BE CATHOLIC NO MORE,GOING AGAINST THEIR OWN CHURCH.+
ReplyDelete@2:40pm. No one is forcing you to be Catholic. Your comment just shows your lack of belief in your faith. What's wrong with being certified by the archdiocese? What's wrong about seeking the archdiocese's backing first unless you have something to hide.
DeleteYou neos assume that the jungle is about hate when they e provided many facts which Rome has been listening to. So again, what is wrong with seeking the archdiocese's approval before you neos start trying to evangelize?
Diana, nobody said the NCW is another RCIA. The questions was this:
Delete"Would it not be better to collaborate with RCIA to provide a consistent knowledge base about Christ and our Catholic faith to all believers?"
Saying that you are not RCIA is nothing new. But collaboration is a different question. If you are involved in post baptismal faith instruction, then why don't you follow up there where RCIA finished before baptism? The faithful needs continuous education in faith, continuing what they started before they got baptized.
If NCW is a post-baptismal catechumenate, then it should extend the pre-baptismal education provided by RCIA. This can only happen if NCW instructors are certified the same way as RCIA instructors are.
Dear Anonymous at 4:39 pm,
DeleteActually, the real problem is the hate. We are not the only Catholics who go out to evangelize. The Legion of Mary also go out to evangelize, but the Way is the only group being targeted.
Dear Anonymous at 4:57 pm,
DeleteThose in the RCIA have been invited to the NCW. The invitation was not only extended to parishioners but also to those in the RCIA program.
Diana, this should be in the other way around! Those in the NCW should be invited back to follow the Christian life of RCIA initiation.
DeleteThe RCIA initiation calls the faithful to be part of the parish, not be apart from it. You cannot be a Catholic apart from your parish. An invitation to follow the spirit of RCIA after baptism is extended not only to all parishioners in every parish but also to those in the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 12:44 pm,
DeleteThe NCW has been far more successful in getting people to be part of the parish. There are many members in the NCW who serve in the parish as Lectors, Eucharistic Ministers, CCD instructors, parish council members, parish choir members, etc. Tell me, Anonymous 12:44 pm, do you do any volunteer work in your parish?
It is not about success but obedience to the Catholic Church. NCW builds itself apart from the church and defies its authority.
DeleteTo know, love, and serve God is obedience to Christ, to His church. How is serving in the parish being disobient to God himself? How do you come to the conclusion that doing that is "building apart from the church"? I don't understand.
Delete"They are not supposed to teach just "something" that is not in conflict with the teaching, rather they should teach what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop!"
ReplyDeleteI try to understand this sentence. It says not just something "that is not in conflict". Diana, I guess it says NOT in conflict. It does not say it IS in conflict. Just the contrary! The meaning of the sentence is that you should have higher requirement than just being "not in conflict". When you only want "not to be in conflict", then you lower the requirements, lower the expectations. You should aim higher than that, dear Diana!
You should aim to follow directly "what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop" and not deviating from it any inch! This is the real problem. You routinely deviate from what is laid down by the church, feeling you are free to do so until you are "not in conflict". It is like inviting to your daughter's birthday party some indifferent classmates. Your daughter will ask you, "why don't you invite my friends"? What will you say? Would you tell her it is okay to celebrate with indifferent classmates so long as you are "not in conflict" with them?
This is wrong, Diana! Please, invite the friends of your daughter to her birthday party! She wants to spend her quality time with friends and not with indifferent people! The same way, please, tell your catechists to teach what the church says. Because people want to hear the real thing and not just something "not in conflict".
Dear Anonymous at 4:48 pm,
DeleteFor something that you consider "low requirements", we have the following to show:
1. Mission families who were willing to leave everything behind and evangelize in foreign countries with their children.
2. Itinerants who also evangelize in foreign countries.
3. Youth who participate in the World Youth Day pilgrimage,
4. Many middle age and young people attending the NCW along with the elderly.
5. Many people who felt the calling to the priesthood or the convent
6. Many couples open to life including adoption
Anonymous 4:48pm:
DeleteTry reading the sentence without 'just' before 'something'....
"They are not supposed to teach
"something" that is not in conflict with the teaching,
rather they should teach what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop!"
Diana, you are listing things that you consider "fruits" of the NCW. Some people think these are not real fruits, but false/ misleading information for propaganda purposes. But this is not the point. The point is that "lower requirement" came up in a completely different context, apart from the fruits.
DeleteLook at this question: "How to decide what to teach?" This is about what catechesis your catechists should present no NCW believers. The request is that you teach "what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop". Is this a clear proposition? This is an actual criterion of how one decides what is to be taught.
Now, the NCW's answer to this question is: teach "something that is not in conflict" with Vatican. This is your criterion. This is a much lower criterion than the previous one! It has nothing to do with fruits or not fruits when we try to answer this question and set up a criterion. Apart from the question of fruits, focus on this particular question and criterion, please.
The request is:
1. Do not be satisfied by deciding this question following the 2nd criterion that says "not in conflict".
2. Rather than that, please apply the 1st criterion and teach "what is laid down by the church and requested by the local bishop".
I hope this helped.
So you are saying forget about those people who do not agree with you, or do not know God loves them, or etc...etc...Is that what you have learned as a Christian Catholic? Or is it something else?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:47 pm,
DeleteThe catechesis is in the Catechetical Directory, which was approved by Rome. That is what the NCW follows.
Diana, the question was NOT about the approval of your unpublished booklets. Let me reformulate: Would your catechists be willing to teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) if the local bishop would ask for that?
DeleteAnon at 1:47 pm, NCW uses the churches approved catechesis in the Catechetical Directory as Diana points out at 7:45 pm. And the result of these catechesis that NCW uses is the fruits Diana lists at April 19 at 9:57 pm.
DeleteThe NCW catechesis are much more fruitful in my view, in producing the fruits Diana listed. But, I could be wrong. So I invite you to list the charism of the catholic church that produces the kind of fruits NCW produces begining with the catechises.
Dear Anonymous at 9:33 am,
DeleteYou stated: "Would your catechists be willing to teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) if the local bishop would ask for that?"
The NCW also uses the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Why? Because that is what we are told to do in the Statutes. According to Chapter III, Section 1, Article 2 of the Statutes:
§ 4. In order to enter more deeply into the Scriptures “with the mind and the heart of the Church”,40 the neocatechumens make use, above all, of the writings of the Fathers, of the documents of the Magisterium, specially the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and of works of spiritual writers.41
In the NCW, we use the Statutes, the Catechetical Directory, the Holy Bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is NOT the result of the catechesis. How would it be? Your catechesis is not even online readable!
Deletehttp://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html
Could you verify this by independent source, please? Anonymous stated the official textbook of NCW studies is the Cath. Dictionary by Dufour et al.
DeleteThe CCC is included in the Directory. Even more!
DeleteAt Anon April 21 at 1 pm - LOL at your comment... you're not even in the ball park on this.
DeleteThe spirit of the moratorium is called DISCIPLINE. MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 11:28. “Be anxious for nothing . . . let your requests be made known to God . . . and the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6–7).
You are right. The moratorium is a form of discipline that I'm sure the NCW will be grateful for once it has been lifted. =)
DeleteLol. All I know is that whatever happens it's going to be amazing.
God bless you all in the NCW. Keep us in your prayers.
There is no moratorium. Only a one-year suspension of one kind of activity. The spirit of the moratorium is that you cannot go two-by-two. Why? It is false. It is evangelization. There is no such thing as the spirit of the moratorium. There is no such thing as moratorium. Got it?
DeleteAnonymous poster should have just read your response in a previous thread:
ReplyDeletehttp://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-desire-and-zeal-of-ncw.html?showComment=1491258756543&m=1#c7347724629386089149
The current Catechists were already approved by Archbishop Apuron. Furthermore, the NCW must follow the Statutes of the Way, which was approved by Rome. According to the APPROVED Statutes:
Article 17, Section 3:
vote some brothers and sisters to undertake the task of catechists. These are chosen from among those who give guarantees of a life of faith and of moral life, who participate in the Way and in the life of the Church and are able to bear witness, grateful for the goods received through the Neocatechumenal Way.
These, if they accept this designation, having been
previously approved by the pastor/parish priest and by the catechists who guide the community,
constitute, together with
the presbyter and with the responsible of the community, a team of catechists, to evangelize and guide new communities, either in their own or another parish, or in another diocese,69 at the request of the respective pastors/parish priests or diocesan ordinaries. The catechists are formed in a suitable way (see art. 29).
Article 29:
Art. 29
[Formation of catechists]
In order for the catechists to acquire – as required by the General Directory for Catechesis – “the evangelical attitudes which Jesus taught his disciples when he sent them on mission…: to seek out the lost sheep, announce and heal at the same time, to be poor, without money or knapsack; to know how to accept rejection and persecution; to place one’s trust in the Father and in the support of the Holy Spirit; to expect no other reward than the joy of working for the Kingdom”,121 they are suitably prepared:
1st. the basis of their formation is
participation in the Neocatechumenate, which guarantees their gradual maturation in faith and in witness,122
with a corresponding deepening of their biblical, patristic and theological formation,
with particular reference to the documents of the Magisterium of the Church;
2nd. they prepare themselves to transmit the word as they in their turn have received123 and lived it:
they are trained by accompanying their own catechists several times for the initial catecheses and the various passages of the Neocatechumenate;
3rd. they complete their formation by participating in appropriate convivences and meetings of catechists, called by the International Responsible Team of the Way or by a team delegated by them,
in which fundamental themes
of the Church’s Magisterium are addressed;
4th. they participate in the meetings of the Diocesan Neocatechumenal Center - referred to in the following article - for the formation of catechists;
5th. finally, they prepare each catechesis and passage of the Neocatechumenate, together with the presbyter in so far as is possible, reading in an atmosphere of prayer the corresponding passages of Sacred Scripture, of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and of the Orientations
for the Teams of Catechists, which revive in them the “word of salvation” (Acts 13:26) which they themselves received orally from their own catechists.
Article 28, Section 1:
§ 1. The teams of catechists are composed of some lay faithful, elected in conformity with art. 17 §3, and a presbyter.
........
Seriously, the method of preparation already seems to me that the individual(s) who so desire to be a catechist have to undergo a strict program that appears to challenge their sincerity in catechizing. Isn't that enough?
Furthermore anonymous, the NCW does not despise the RCIA program but provides those who desire to deepen their faith the opportunity to do so by walking with the communities of the NCW. What is wrong with someone who has this desire?
Also, if you are so worried that they may be taught incorrectly, what specifically are they teaching that is incorrect? Please read through the responses to those criticisms over the years and come back and refute them with those references.
Independent approval is needed. How can you go without?
DeleteIs there independently verified certification?
DeleteAnon at 9:37 am and 1:10 pm, The NCW Catechesis and Catechist are approved by the highest level of the Catholic Church. Stop with this nonsense...you don't agree with it then take it up with the Pope. NCW is not going to follow yours or anyone elses direction no matter how loud they cry, NCW is going to follow the approved statutes, and if you don't like it, to bad...go be the Sunday warrior of the local catholic church or go to Rome and protest in front of the Vatican.
DeleteNo such thing as the "highest level of the Catholic Church". There is only one Christ who is the Lord of all.
DeleteChuck quotes Kiko's Easter message to his followers: Go out of the churches because Christians did not have church, only persecution! That is what he says. You have to wait for the Second Coming of Christ at your home, during Easter ritual He will come. It is in Spanish transcript, all from Kiko but 100% catechesis is Carmen! He says all are Carmen's catechesis. The Lord Jesus is Messiah who will return during Easter Vigil and the prayers of Jewish brothers will be heard. He says: "The sacred space has the danger that if this place is the church then outside is the profane, creating a division between your belief and the world."
Do you see it? The division between God and Mammon, between the King of Heaven and lord of this world. This is a problem for Kiko. But it is not even a problem, because it is reality! The catechesis of the Holy Catholic Church verifies that Jesus is a King but not of this world. His kingdom is not from this world. Therefore, He remains with us forever!
It is not nonsesne... It is the truth!