To the anonymous commenter who wants his/her comments published containing all the negative things about the Way by quoting anti-Neo websites, I will not publish your comment. There is another blog who will gladly publish all the anti-Neo websites that you quoted. You can go to the jungle for that. Furthermore, all the things that you wrote were already addressed on this blog.
LOL! Tim Rohr wants to kick away from the island anyone who disagrees with him. Such intolerance. The list is very long. Just a taster of those he would like ousted: 1. Archbishop Anthony Apuron, 2. Mgr. David Quituga, 3. Father Adrian Cristobal, 4. Mr. Dominic Kim, 5. Father Pius Sammut, 6. Ms. Pat Cottman, 7. Father Edivaldo, 8. 30+ seminarians at the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, 38. Diana… 39. Jonathan Bordallo (he is lucky, he was only kicked out from the meeting room)
The irony is that he himself is not even one of us. He is an estrångheru. We offered him hospitality in our island and in return he is trying to divide our Church.
“Non praevalabunt”, as my old pastor used to say meaning ‘They (the forces of evil) will not prevail’.
Chuck White first started a campaign against Father Pius. He made an online petition to discredit him. It was a total flop. Just three hundred people signed it. And there is no way to check the correctness of these three hundred signatures.
Then, he wrote to his superior hoping to embarrass him! His superior wrote back expressing his approval for the mission Father Pius is doing in Guam. What a dud. Now on his website he is writing constantly articles against him. He is a loser.
Then he turned his attention to Father John Wadeson and he even wrote to Archbishop of San Francisco to report him because he imagined he is in the San Francisco area. How the heck he is assuming this is a real mystery to me. He is completely wrong again.
These are just calumnies. A calumny is the making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation.
Is this the attitude of a Catholic apologist? Does he have nothing better to do?
In his website, he wrote this quote in the header “In the pursuit of the true, the good, the beautiful…”
Perhaps he should change it to “In the pursuit of lies, slander, calumnies and false assertions…”
Chuck White first started a campaign against Father Pius. He made an online petition to discredit him. It was a total flop. In eight months plus, he managed to garner just 375 signatures. And there is no way to check the accuracy of these three hundred plus signatures.
Then, he wrote to his superior hoping to embarrass him! His superior wrote back expressing his approval for the mission Father Pius is doing in Guam.
Now on his website he is writing articles and putting excerpts of recording of his speeches out of context trying to discredit him.
Then he turned his attention to Father John Wadeson and he even wrote to Archbishop of San Francisco to report him because he imagined he is in the San Francisco area. How the heck he is assuming this is a real mystery to me. He is completely wrong again.
These are just calumnies. A calumny is the making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation.
Is this the attitude of a Catholic apologist? Does he have nothing better to do?
In his website, he put as a header of his website “In the pursuit of the true, the good, the beautiful…”
Perhaps he should change it to “In the pursuit of lies, slander and calumnies…"
Dear Diana, If you are addressing me, re my posting regarding what was contained in Pope Benedict's audience to the NCW re their Mass, please know I am not Anti-Neo, I am Anti-Neo unapproved additions and deletions in their Mass. I have many friends who are Neo. The comments I made, under the title below in Caps, were legitimate, and I would like addressed. They are not meant to be nasty. If they were already addressed on this blog, then it would be worth addressing them again. The issues would be like searching for a needle in a haystack.
ALL THE POSITIVE REMARKS FROM THE POPE RE THE NCW'S VARIOIUS GOOD POINTS, CANNOT NEGATE WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE PARAGRAPH REGARDING THE MASS. - WHICH IS THE SOURCE AND SUMMIT OF OUR FAITH.
All the quotes you posted were obtained from Anti-Neo websites. These websites twists words around. One of the main problems they have with the NCW is the way we celebrate the Eucharist. The Archbishop of Guam already stated that we got permission from Rome to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. I have said also said this so many times on my blog. Whether you believe this or not is not my problem. If you feel that we are not in compliance with Rome, you can always write your concerns to Archbishop Krebs or the Vatican.
Appears Anonymous April 27, 2015 at 8:54 AM.......that you want us to confirm that a paragraph regarding the mass....which is the source and summit of our faith.
Please, let me point out the obvious.
When you see families in mission being sent; this is faith in action.
This is not go to church once, twice a week; read the missal, go to confession once a while, follow this paragraph to the letter kind of faith.
This is affirmation of the Spirit of God working in people; leave your land, your comfort, your security.
Before bibles; before priest; before churches, there was the WORD of God. It is one thing to listen and understand the Word of God; it is another to act.
I'm not from Guam, but the same arguments they use for the NCW Mass (and I'm strictly talking about the NCW Mass) are similar to what is causing disunity here. I do know that there has never been any written permission granted the NCW for the alterations in their Mass, that is why any of their members cannot produce it. All the speeches, letters,etc. given by the Popes, give kudos to the NCW for many things, but the Popes have never been thrilled with the alterations in the NCW Mass and have definitely asked for correction several times. You avoid explaining why the members are so intent to keep a Mass that, as Pope Benedict had said, could be made better.
When one delves into the history of the Church, one finds that the Free Masons and Communists had agendas to destroy the Church from within by having their own enter the seminaries.. Do you realize that on their agenda was to have the Mass said on a table rather than an altar to remove the idea that a sacrifice was taking place? Do you realize that removal of adoration such as kneeling and genuflecting during the Mass was to be promoted? This list goes on....... Knowing this, would not the NCW just want to preserve the Sacrifice of the Mass without succumbing to the desires of the Masons and Communists?
Mistakes were made; these mistakes could and should be corrected.
The Early Christians did not have their Mass on an altar as well. Their Mass was on a table and celebrated in a person's home. Would you compare the Early Christians to the Free Masons and Communists?.
The Catholic Church has always been in conflict throughout her history. So why should now be any different. And history shows that when one blatantly disobeys the Church, the Church is not afraid to excommunicate them. If corrections are to be made, it will come from the Vatican. The Popes has never corrected us, but praised us. Nowhere in any of the Popes speeches did they ever tell the Way NOT.........and I repeat......?NOT to do this or to do that. Where do you hear or read the Pope telling Kiko to STOP sitting down when consuming the Body of Christ??? Where do you hear the Pope telling the NCW to kneel???
As I said to many in my blog, if you feel that the Way is not in compliance with the Varican, then write to the Vatican.
Dear Diana, I understand you. Also try to understand the question. I don't think it is a good answer to tell people to write to Vatican. They have a problem with the way we have our Eucharist. Whatever we say, they still have the same problem, because they cannot get over with it.
Now, this how we can help them to get over with their problem: just tell them it is the most beautiful part of the Eucharist in the Way, when we consume the Host all together! Yes, that is it. If this is not good enough for them, well then it is their problem, not ours. Bookworm Catholics chew on books and paragraphs all the time, we cannot compete with them because they are the experts in this. Lol!
We can help by discouraging them from being bookworm Catholics. If they don't listen then we cannot help anymore. They'll get what they like best and stay like that forever. One day Someone will close those books for good. I won't shred any tear drop for them.
Regardless of what I say, they want some written evidence that we are allowed to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. I tell them to write to the Vatican because if the Vatican does respond to their letter, they have their evidence. I am not against books, and the problem is not the bookworm Catholics. In fact, I consider myself a bookworm Catholic because I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, some of the Pope's speeches, and other Catholic materials as well as other religious books that are non-Catholic. The problems are the Cafeteria Catholics and the Latin Traditional Catholics who do not accept Vatican II.
Diana, bookworm Catholics are not those who read books. I read books all the time to learn from. A good book is a great teacher. But books are not to impose on you! Teaching is not the same as imposing on, Do you see the difference between the two things? Then you'll see reading won't make you a bookworm Catholic.
Bookworm Catholics are those who want to see everything through the books. They have no relation to the Spirit, that is why it does not matter for them if they read the book of not, they cannot truly understand anyway! You see, they are like the jungle folks who want to impose on you something they had never understood in the first place. If they had understood it, they would listen to the Spirit of Him who came to free us from bondage. We know they have no understanding, because they want to impose on us rather than set the Spirit free.
Don Davide Tisato and Don Elia Del Prete, ordered sanday by Pope Francis with other 7 Redemptoris Mater of Rome seminarians. (9 of 19 diocesan ordinations).......impart the blessing with Pope to the faithful in St. Peter's Square.
More good news… Pope Francis just two days ago ordained nine priests from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Rome. NINE, nine…
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis ordained 19 men to the priesthood for the diocese of Rome, on the day the Church celebrates Good Shepherd Sunday and the 52nd World Day of Prayer for Vocations. This happened just two days ago.
Thirteen of these new priests were formed in the various diocesan seminaries in Rome. Nine of them were formed in the Missionary Seminary Redemptoris Mater in Rome, three in the Seminario Romano diocesan Major Seminary, one in the Madonna del Divino Amore Seminary.
“Keep always before your eyes the example of the Good Shepherd,” the Pope said, “who came not to be served but to serve; not to stay in his comfort, but to go out to seek and save what was lost.”
And to think that here in Guam some people want to close the Redemptoris Mater. It is crazy!!!
Dear 2:18 pm, I encourage you to do a little research into the history of the mass. You will discover many things that. Robr and his buddies don't want you to know. Like, the wafer. In early ROME, it was unleavened bread in the west and leavened (still is today) in the east. The wafer is a concession and not the liturgically mandated form despite its widespread use. And, did you know that kneeling at mass came later like in the 8th century? And, for centuries there were many versions of the Eucharistic prayer in the east and west? Did you know that before the council of trent, there were varieties of traditions of the Latin mass varying from country to country in Europe? Trent standardized the mass universally. Now, this may shock you but, Latin was not the original language of the early church, it was Greek! Yikes!
RE: Apr 27, 2015, 9:29 PM "The Popes has never corrected us, but praised us...." Diana pls note: 16 FEB.'06 (Excerpts from Arinze's interview with ZENIT) (Caps mine)
"Liturgical norms issued by the Holy See to the Neocatechumenal Way were the result ... AT THE POPE'S REQUEST."
"The Pope continued saying: "PRECISELY to help the Neocatechumenal Way to render EVEN MORE effective its evangelizing action in communion with ALL the People of God, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments recently imparted to you IN MY NAME certain NORMS ... I am sure you will attentively observe these NORMS that reflect what is provided for in the liturgical books APPROVED by the Church."
These are the Holy Father's words. He was saying to them: "I have given you directives through this congregation; follow them."......"
"On December 1, 2005, at the conclusion of many talks over a period of at least two years or more, our congregation wrote a two-page letter to the leaders of the Neocatechumenal Way.
I will simply give the summary: "In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way will accept and follow the liturgical books APPROVED by the Church WITHOUT omitting or adding anything.
This is the basic principle. To follow the approved books; not to add or take away..."
"In regard to the homily, pronounced always by the priest or the deacon, a brief OCCASIONAL intervention may be made that does not have the appearance of a homily. This can also be accepted.
On the greeting of peace, the Neocatechumenal Way is granted the possibility of taking advantage of the INDULT ALREADY GIVEN, that is, that the exchange of peace take place before the Offertory, UNTIL A NEW DISPOSITION [is given].
In regard to the MANNER OF RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION, the Neocatechumenal Way is granted a period of transition, of no longer than TWO YEARS, to pass from the generalized way of receiving Communion among its communities — for example, seated, using an adorned table placed in the center of the church, instead of the dedicated altar — TO THE NORMAL MANNER for the WHOLE CHURCH of receiving holy Communion.
THIS MEANS THAT THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY MUST MOVE TOWARD THE WAY ESTABLISHED BY THE LITURGICAL BOOKS FOR THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST.
Finally, the Neocatechumenal Way must also use the other Eucharistic Prayers contained in the Missal and not only the second Eucharistic Prayer....."
"It stemmed from the results of this congregation's examination of the way in which the Neocatechumenal Way has celebrated holy Mass for many years, as, following the approval of the statutes by the Pontifical Council for the Laity — for a five-year period — the rest of the Vatican dicasteries had to effect the approvals in their domain. OUR congregation's domain is the liturgy.
To carry out this examination, we created a mixed commission of persons named by the Neocatechumenal Way and by our congregation. In the discussions, many practices emerged which they carry out during the Mass. They were examined and it was seen that MANY OF THEM WERE NOT DONE ACCORDING TO THE APPROVED BOOKS.
This is the background. Everything has been examined in many sessions by the mixed commission for a period of two years or more. And a discussion also took place among seven cardinals of the Roman Curia at the request of the HOLY FATHER, WHO EXAMINED EVERYTHING.Therefore, this letter is the conclusion of this whole process."
That letter was back in 2005 BEFORE the Statutes were approved. In 2008 when the Statutes were approved, a change was made in how re receive the Body of Christ, and since then not a single Pope has told the NCW to stop consuming the Body of Christ sitting down despite all the complaints coming in and the investigation that was conducted. Instead, the investigation was dismissed by Pope Francis.
we would assume that a logical discussion on any issue can be the start of enlightenment. It is a fruitless effort if the information one brings to the table is 10 years outdated.
Dear Diana, the approved Statutes of 2008 are NOT being followed. The NCW are still using those of 2002 which were "ad experimentum." So, it would appear that the NCW is outdated as to what should be followed.
Dear Diana, I repeat two ignored contributions to this dialogue:
RE:AnonymousMay 3, 2015 at 8:51 PM
"we would assume that a logical discussion on any issue can be the start of enlightenment. It is a fruitless effort if the information one brings to the table is 10 years outdated."
And yes, this is exactly what the NCW has been doing. It is using the "ad experimentum alterations in the Statutes of 2002 (over ten years outdated) to validate the illicit manner of celebrating their Mass. The approved Statutes of 2008 does not contain the additions and deletions. It is now 2015.
and
Dear Diana - re your May 4, 3:23 pm You may think you are using the 2008 Statutes; however, nowhere does the APPROVED 2008 Statutes give the NCW permission for the alterations and deletions that were *ad experimentum* in the OUTDATED Statutes of 2002. Please show the non-Neos where this exists, then we can cease trying to correct the liturgical abuses that exist. Until then, I remain one with our Lord, Jesus Christ.
This dialogue is useless if you continue to insist that we are using the 2002 Statutes. I already told you that I have the 2008 Statutes and that is what we are using. An anonymous poster who is also in the Way also confirms that the NCW is using the 2008 approved Statutes.
In the first place, it is NOT your duty to correct the NCW. That duty belongs to the Vatican. Your duty is to notify the Vatican if you "think" that we are in violation. So, write your letter to the Vatican and stop doing the job of the Vatican.
Dear Diana, Pope Francis spoke to the NCW about being culturally sensitive during his audience with them January 2014, before their teams went on mission. He said:
"Communion is essential sometimes it can be better to renounce living in all the details that your itinerary demands, in order to ensure the unity among those who form one ecclesial community, of which you must always feel that you are part. Another recommendation: wherever you may go, it would do you well to think that the Spirit of God always gets there ahead of us. The Lord always precedes us! ... Even in the most faraway places, even in the most diverse cultures, God scatters everywhere the seeds of his Word. From here, flows the necessity to give special attention to the cultural context in which you, families, will go to work: it consists of an environment often very different from the one from which you come. Many of you will have to work hard to learn the local language, sometimes it will be difficult, and this effort is appreciated. Even more important will be your commitment to “learn” the culture you will encounter, knowing how to recognize the need of the Gospel, which is present wherever, but also that action that the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the life and in the history of every people. "
Now, keeping in mind cultural sensitivity, here is:
religion March 09, 2015 Interview: Cardinal Sarah on Liturgical Wars,...... Excerpts from an Aleteia exclusive and candid interview with Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, the new prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, who candidly discusses liturgical battles, ......
"Your Eminence, in your book God or Nothing, you mention several times the "liturgical war" that has been dividing Catholics for decades. You say that this war is particularly unfortunate because Catholics should be especially united on this issue. How can we get beyond these divisions and unite all Catholics in worshiping God?
Cardinal Robert Sarah: Vatican II never asked us to reject the past and abandon the Mass of St. Pius V, which spawned many saints, nor discard Latin. But at the same time we must promote the liturgical reform sought by the Council itself. The liturgy is the special place where we meet God face-to-face, bring Him our whole life, our work, and make an offering of all this to his glory. We cannot celebrate the liturgy while taking up arms: carrying on our shoulders weapons of hate, combat, resentment. Jesus Himself said, "Before presenting your offering, first be reconciled to your brother." In this "face-to-face" with God, our heart must be pure, free of all hatred, all rancor. Each person must remove from his heart anything that might cast a shadow on this meeting. This involves respecting everyone’s sensitivity. "
"Is this not precisely what Benedict XVI wanted?
Cardinal Sarah: Yes, this is the meaning of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (July 2007, ed.) Benedict XVI put a lot of energy and hope into this work. Alas, he was not totally successful because people "clung" to their specific rite and mutually excluded each other. In the Church, everyone should be able to celebrate according to his or her own sensitivity. It is one of the conditions of reconciliation. Attention should also be paid to the beauty of the liturgy, its sacredness. The Eucharist is not a "dinner with friends", it is a sacred mystery. If it is celebrated with fervor and beauty, an understanding will certainly be reached. However, we must not forget that it is God who reconciles, and this will take time."
When the Pope said these words, did you honestly think that we are supposed to be in communion with YOU!!!! Are you the Archbishop?????? When the Pope said these words, he meant to be in communion with the Bishops, who are the leaders of the Church. And we are in communion with Archbishop Apuron.
Catechism of the Catholic Church: #883 *The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter s successor, as its head.* As such, this college has supreme authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.* ----------------------- During an audience with the Pope, Bishop Fellay found himself alone with the Pope for a moment. His Excellency seized the opportunity to remind the Pope that he is the Vicar of Christ, possessed of the authority to take immediate measures to end the crisis in the Church on all fronts. The Pope replied thus: “My authority ends at that door.” (Castel Gondolfo August, 2005) ------------------------- We must all ask, (on all fronts), to what extent are we guilty of reducing the authority of a Pope.
Please to not avoid answering this very appropriate and important question. -If the permission exists for the alterations in the NCW Mass in the Statutes of 2008, why would you, or the anonymous NCW poster, not post the excerpts from the 2008 Statutes which confirm this? I, like you and the anonymous NCW poster have the Statutes of 2008; however, I cannot find this permission.
And, in regards to whose duty it is to correct: -You say "that duty belongs to the Vatican..." BUT the Vatican TRIED to correct the NCW Mass: (1) - the letter from Cardinal Arinze on behalf of Pope Benedict in 2005, (2) - the reminder from Pope Benedict in 2006 to the NCW re the letter of 2005, (3) - the "approved" Statutes of 2008 which somehow are either not read or perhaps misinterpreted. (4) - Pope Benedict's refusal of "the NCW's anticipated approval of alterations to the Mass" January 2012.
Redemptionis Sacramentum says in 183. "In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious DUTY INCUMBENT UPON EACH AND EVERY ONE, AND ALL ARE BOUND TO CARRY IT OUT WITHOUT ANY FAVORITISM."
Diana, when when a falsehood is spread on the Internet, should not correction be done on the Internet too? (You believe this; otherwise, you would not correct Tim and Chuck's misrepresentations!) Both sides need correction. But, pride blinds. Let us all ask the Lord for the humility to accept correction.
It has already been said numerous times that the NCW has the permission of the Pope to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. If you do not believe this, then simply write a letter of complaint to the Vatican.
Nowhere has the Pope ever corrected Kiko or the NCW. There is nothing in the Pope's speech saying, "Kiko or NCW, you need to STOP celebrating the Eucharist incorrectly." The fact that the Pope ENCOURAGES us to continue to follow the liturgical books, our Statutes, and everything that was approved is not a correction. An encouragement is not a correction. If one were to actually correct a person, they would say "cease and desist".
LOL! Tim Rohr wants to kick away from the island anyone who disagrees with him. Such intolerance. The list is very long. Just a taster of those he would like ousted:
ReplyDelete1. Archbishop Anthony Apuron,
2. Mgr. David Quituga,
3. Father Adrian Cristobal,
4. Mr. Dominic Kim,
5. Father Pius Sammut,
6. Ms. Pat Cottman,
7. Father Edivaldo,
8. 30+ seminarians at the Redemptoris Mater Seminary,
38. Diana…
39. Jonathan Bordallo (he is lucky, he was only kicked out from the meeting room)
The irony is that he himself is not even one of us. He is an estrångheru. We offered him hospitality in our island and in return he is trying to divide our Church.
“Non praevalabunt”, as my old pastor used to say meaning ‘They (the forces of evil) will not prevail’.
Chuck White first started a campaign against Father Pius. He made an online petition to discredit him. It was a total flop. Just three hundred people signed it. And there is no way to check the correctness of these three hundred signatures.
ReplyDeleteThen, he wrote to his superior hoping to embarrass him! His superior wrote back expressing his approval for the mission Father Pius is doing in Guam. What a dud. Now on his website he is writing constantly articles against him. He is a loser.
Then he turned his attention to Father John Wadeson and he even wrote to Archbishop of San Francisco to report him because he imagined he is in the San Francisco area. How the heck he is assuming this is a real mystery to me. He is completely wrong again.
These are just calumnies. A calumny is the making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation.
Is this the attitude of a Catholic apologist? Does he have nothing better to do?
In his website, he wrote this quote in the header “In the pursuit of the true, the good, the beautiful…”
Perhaps he should change it to “In the pursuit of lies, slander, calumnies and false assertions…”
A loser?
ReplyDeleteChuck White first started a campaign against Father Pius. He made an online petition to discredit him. It was a total flop. In eight months plus, he managed to garner just 375 signatures. And there is no way to check the accuracy of these three hundred plus signatures.
Then, he wrote to his superior hoping to embarrass him! His superior wrote back expressing his approval for the mission Father Pius is doing in Guam.
Now on his website he is writing articles and putting excerpts of recording of his speeches out of context trying to discredit him.
Then he turned his attention to Father John Wadeson and he even wrote to Archbishop of San Francisco to report him because he imagined he is in the San Francisco area. How the heck he is assuming this is a real mystery to me. He is completely wrong again.
These are just calumnies. A calumny is the making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation.
Is this the attitude of a Catholic apologist? Does he have nothing better to do?
In his website, he put as a header of his website “In the pursuit of the true, the good, the beautiful…”
Perhaps he should change it to “In the pursuit of lies, slander and calumnies…"
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteIf you are addressing me, re my posting regarding what was contained in Pope Benedict's audience to the NCW re their Mass, please know I am not Anti-Neo, I am Anti-Neo unapproved additions and deletions in their Mass. I have many friends who are Neo. The comments I made, under the title below in Caps, were legitimate, and I would like addressed. They are not meant to be nasty. If they were already addressed on this blog, then it would be worth addressing them again. The issues would be like searching for a needle in a haystack.
ALL THE POSITIVE REMARKS FROM THE POPE RE THE NCW'S VARIOIUS GOOD POINTS, CANNOT NEGATE WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE PARAGRAPH REGARDING THE MASS. - WHICH IS THE SOURCE AND SUMMIT OF OUR FAITH.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 8:54 am,
DeleteAll the quotes you posted were obtained from Anti-Neo websites. These websites twists words around. One of the main problems they have with the NCW is the way we celebrate the Eucharist. The Archbishop of Guam already stated that we got permission from Rome to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. I have said also said this so many times on my blog. Whether you believe this or not is not my problem. If you feel that we are not in compliance with Rome, you can always write your concerns to Archbishop Krebs or the Vatican.
Appears Anonymous April 27, 2015 at 8:54 AM.......that you want us to confirm that a paragraph regarding the mass....which is the source and summit of our faith.
DeletePlease, let me point out the obvious.
When you see families in mission being sent; this is faith in action.
This is not go to church once, twice a week; read the missal, go to confession once a while, follow this paragraph to the letter kind of faith.
This is affirmation of the Spirit of God working in people; leave your land, your comfort, your security.
Before bibles; before priest; before churches, there was the WORD of God. It is one thing to listen and understand the Word of God; it is another to act.
Faith without action is nothing
Dear Diana,
DeleteRe yours of 1144am
I'm not from Guam, but the same arguments they use for the NCW Mass (and I'm strictly talking about the NCW Mass) are similar to what is causing disunity here. I do know that there has never been any written permission granted the NCW for the alterations in their Mass, that is why any of their members cannot produce it. All the speeches, letters,etc. given by the Popes, give kudos to the NCW for many things, but the Popes have never been thrilled with the alterations in the NCW Mass and have definitely asked for correction several times.
You avoid explaining why the members are so intent to keep a Mass that, as Pope Benedict had said, could be made better.
When one delves into the history of the Church, one finds that the Free Masons and Communists had agendas to destroy the Church from within by having their own enter the seminaries.. Do you realize that on their agenda was to have the Mass said on a table rather than an altar to remove the idea that a sacrifice was taking place? Do you realize that removal of adoration such as kneeling and genuflecting during the Mass was to be promoted? This list goes on.......
Knowing this, would not the NCW just want to preserve the Sacrifice of the Mass without succumbing to the desires of the Masons and Communists?
Mistakes were made; these mistakes could and should be corrected.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 2:18 pm,
DeleteThe Early Christians did not have their Mass on an altar as well. Their Mass was on a table and celebrated in a person's home. Would you compare the Early Christians to the Free Masons and Communists?.
The Catholic Church has always been in conflict throughout her history. So why should now be any different. And history shows that when one blatantly disobeys the Church, the Church is not afraid to excommunicate them. If corrections are to be made, it will come from the Vatican. The Popes has never corrected us, but praised us. Nowhere in any of the Popes speeches did they ever tell the Way NOT.........and I repeat......?NOT to do this or to do that. Where do you hear or read the Pope telling Kiko to STOP sitting down when consuming the Body of Christ??? Where do you hear the Pope telling the NCW to kneel???
As I said to many in my blog, if you feel that the Way is not in compliance with the Varican, then write to the Vatican.
Dear Diana, I understand you. Also try to understand the question. I don't think it is a good answer to tell people to write to Vatican. They have a problem with the way we have our Eucharist. Whatever we say, they still have the same problem, because they cannot get over with it.
DeleteNow, this how we can help them to get over with their problem: just tell them it is the most beautiful part of the Eucharist in the Way, when we consume the Host all together! Yes, that is it. If this is not good enough for them, well then it is their problem, not ours. Bookworm Catholics chew on books and paragraphs all the time, we cannot compete with them because they are the experts in this. Lol!
We can help by discouraging them from being bookworm Catholics. If they don't listen then we cannot help anymore. They'll get what they like best and stay like that forever. One day Someone will close those books for good. I won't shred any tear drop for them.
Dear Delta Force,
DeleteRegardless of what I say, they want some written evidence that we are allowed to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. I tell them to write to the Vatican because if the Vatican does respond to their letter, they have their evidence. I am not against books, and the problem is not the bookworm Catholics. In fact, I consider myself a bookworm Catholic because I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, some of the Pope's speeches, and other Catholic materials as well as other religious books that are non-Catholic. The problems are the Cafeteria Catholics and the Latin Traditional Catholics who do not accept Vatican II.
Diana, bookworm Catholics are not those who read books. I read books all the time to learn from. A good book is a great teacher. But books are not to impose on you! Teaching is not the same as imposing on, Do you see the difference between the two things? Then you'll see reading won't make you a bookworm Catholic.
DeleteBookworm Catholics are those who want to see everything through the books. They have no relation to the Spirit, that is why it does not matter for them if they read the book of not, they cannot truly understand anyway! You see, they are like the jungle folks who want to impose on you something they had never understood in the first place. If they had understood it, they would listen to the Spirit of Him who came to free us from bondage. We know they have no understanding, because they want to impose on us rather than set the Spirit free.
Don Davide Tisato and Don Elia Del Prete, ordered sanday by Pope Francis with other 7 Redemptoris Mater of Rome seminarians. (9 of 19 diocesan ordinations).......impart the blessing with Pope to the faithful in St. Peter's Square.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.larena.it/stories/Home/1148207_il_papa_d_la_benedizione_con_il_veronese_don_davide/
More good news… Pope Francis just two days ago ordained nine priests from the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Rome. NINE, nine…
ReplyDeleteVATICAN CITY — Pope Francis ordained 19 men to the priesthood for the diocese of Rome, on the day the Church celebrates Good Shepherd Sunday and the 52nd World Day of Prayer for Vocations. This happened just two days ago.
Thirteen of these new priests were formed in the various diocesan seminaries in Rome. Nine of them were formed in the Missionary Seminary Redemptoris Mater in Rome, three in the Seminario Romano diocesan Major Seminary, one in the Madonna del Divino Amore Seminary.
“Keep always before your eyes the example of the Good Shepherd,” the Pope said, “who came not to be served but to serve; not to stay in his comfort, but to go out to seek and save what was lost.”
And to think that here in Guam some people want to close the Redemptoris Mater. It is crazy!!!
@ 12:03...I thought only God can truly judge a person's heart? Or maybe God and you? You obviously think you are better.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousApril 27, 2015 at 11:30 PM
Delete@ 12:03...I thought only God can truly judge a person's heart? Or maybe God and you? You obviously think you are better.
actually worst........I'm just not a hypocrite about my lack of faith.
Dear 2:18 pm,
ReplyDeleteI encourage you to do a little research into the history of the mass. You will discover many things that. Robr and his buddies don't want you to know. Like, the wafer. In early ROME, it was unleavened bread in the west and leavened (still is today) in the east. The wafer is a concession and not the liturgically mandated form despite its widespread use. And, did you know that kneeling at mass came later like in the 8th century? And, for centuries there were many versions of the Eucharistic prayer in the east and west? Did you know that before the council of trent, there were varieties of traditions of the Latin mass varying from country to country in Europe? Trent standardized the mass universally. Now, this may shock you but, Latin was not the original language of the early church, it was Greek! Yikes!
http://www.romagiornale.it/papa-francesco-e-i-2-neo-sacerdoti-redemptoris-mater-parole-e-retroscena-di-una-storia-incredibile/
ReplyDeleteRE: Apr 27, 2015, 9:29 PM "The Popes has never corrected us, but praised us...."
ReplyDeleteDiana pls note:
16 FEB.'06 (Excerpts from Arinze's interview with ZENIT) (Caps mine)
"Liturgical norms issued by the Holy See to the Neocatechumenal Way were the result ... AT THE POPE'S REQUEST."
"The Pope continued saying: "PRECISELY to help the Neocatechumenal Way to render EVEN MORE effective its evangelizing action in communion with ALL the People of God, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments recently imparted to you IN MY NAME certain NORMS ... I am sure you will attentively observe these NORMS that reflect what is provided for in the liturgical books APPROVED by the Church."
These are the Holy Father's words. He was saying to them: "I have given you directives through this congregation; follow them."......"
"On December 1, 2005, at the conclusion of many talks over a period of at least two years or more, our congregation wrote a two-page letter to the leaders of the Neocatechumenal Way.
I will simply give the summary: "In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way will accept and follow the liturgical books APPROVED by the Church WITHOUT omitting or adding anything.
This is the basic principle. To follow the approved books; not to add or take away..."
"In regard to the homily, pronounced always by the priest or the deacon, a brief OCCASIONAL intervention may be made that does not have the appearance of a homily. This can also be accepted.
On the greeting of peace, the Neocatechumenal Way is granted the possibility of taking advantage of the INDULT ALREADY GIVEN, that is, that the exchange of peace take place before the Offertory, UNTIL A NEW DISPOSITION [is given].
In regard to the MANNER OF RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION, the Neocatechumenal Way is granted a period of transition, of no longer than TWO YEARS, to pass from the generalized way of receiving Communion among its communities — for example, seated, using an adorned table placed in the center of the church, instead of the dedicated altar — TO THE NORMAL MANNER for the WHOLE CHURCH of receiving holy Communion.
THIS MEANS THAT THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY MUST MOVE TOWARD THE WAY ESTABLISHED BY THE LITURGICAL BOOKS FOR THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST.
Finally, the Neocatechumenal Way must also use the other Eucharistic Prayers contained in the Missal and not only the second Eucharistic Prayer....."
"It stemmed from the results of this congregation's examination of the way in which the Neocatechumenal Way has celebrated holy Mass for many years, as, following the approval of the statutes by the Pontifical Council for the Laity — for a five-year period — the rest of the Vatican dicasteries had to effect the approvals in their domain. OUR congregation's domain is the liturgy.
To carry out this examination, we created a mixed commission of persons named by the Neocatechumenal Way and by our congregation. In the discussions, many practices emerged which they carry out during the Mass. They were examined and it was seen that MANY OF THEM WERE NOT DONE ACCORDING TO THE APPROVED BOOKS.
This is the background. Everything has been examined in many sessions by the mixed commission for a period of two years or more. And a discussion also took place among seven cardinals of the Roman Curia at the request of the HOLY FATHER, WHO EXAMINED EVERYTHING.Therefore, this letter is the conclusion of this whole process."
Dear Anonymous at 5:42 pm,
DeleteThat letter was back in 2005 BEFORE the Statutes were approved. In 2008 when the Statutes were approved, a change was made in how re receive the Body of Christ, and since then not a single Pope has told the NCW to stop consuming the Body of Christ sitting down despite all the complaints coming in and the investigation that was conducted. Instead, the investigation was dismissed by Pope Francis.
we would assume that a logical discussion on any issue can be the start of enlightenment. It is a fruitless effort if the information one brings to the table is 10 years outdated.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana, the approved Statutes of 2008 are NOT being followed. The NCW are still using those of 2002 which were "ad experimentum." So, it would appear that the NCW is outdated as to what should be followed.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 2:31 pm,
DeleteThe approved Statutes of 2008 is the one being used. I have the 2008 Statutes.
and you are credulous without checking your background. i use 2008 statute. you should challenge your source.
DeleteDear Diana, I repeat two ignored contributions to this dialogue:
ReplyDeleteRE:AnonymousMay 3, 2015 at 8:51 PM
"we would assume that a logical discussion on any issue can be the start of enlightenment. It is a fruitless effort if the information one brings to the table is 10 years outdated."
And yes, this is exactly what the NCW has been doing. It is using the "ad experimentum alterations in the Statutes of 2002 (over ten years outdated) to validate the illicit manner of celebrating their Mass. The approved Statutes of 2008 does not contain the additions and deletions. It is now 2015.
and
Dear Diana - re your May 4, 3:23 pm
You may think you are using the 2008 Statutes; however, nowhere does the APPROVED 2008 Statutes give the NCW permission for the alterations and deletions that were *ad experimentum* in the OUTDATED Statutes of 2002.
Please show the non-Neos where this exists, then we can cease trying to correct the liturgical abuses that exist.
Until then, I remain one with our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Dear Anonymous at 2:40 pm,
DeleteThis dialogue is useless if you continue to insist that we are using the 2002 Statutes. I already told you that I have the 2008 Statutes and that is what we are using. An anonymous poster who is also in the Way also confirms that the NCW is using the 2008 approved Statutes.
In the first place, it is NOT your duty to correct the NCW. That duty belongs to the Vatican. Your duty is to notify the Vatican if you "think" that we are in violation. So, write your letter to the Vatican and stop doing the job of the Vatican.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletePope Francis spoke to the NCW about being culturally sensitive during his audience with them January 2014, before their teams went on mission. He said:
"Communion is essential sometimes it can be better to renounce living in all the details that your itinerary demands, in order to ensure the unity among those who form one ecclesial community, of which you must always feel that you are part.
Another recommendation: wherever you may go, it would do you well to think that the Spirit of God always gets there ahead of us. The Lord always precedes us! ... Even in the most faraway places, even in the most diverse cultures, God scatters everywhere the seeds of his Word. From here, flows the necessity to give special attention to the cultural context in which you, families, will go to work: it consists of an environment often very different from the one from which you come. Many of you will have to work hard to learn the local language, sometimes it will be difficult, and this effort is appreciated. Even more important will be your commitment to “learn” the culture you will encounter, knowing how to recognize the need of the Gospel, which is present wherever, but also that action that the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the life and in the history of every people. "
Now, keeping in mind cultural sensitivity, here is:
religion March 09, 2015
Interview: Cardinal Sarah on Liturgical Wars,......
Excerpts from an Aleteia exclusive and candid interview with Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, the new prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, who candidly discusses liturgical battles, ......
"Your Eminence, in your book God or Nothing, you mention several times the "liturgical war" that has been dividing Catholics for decades. You say that this war is particularly unfortunate because Catholics should be especially united on this issue. How can we get beyond these divisions and unite all Catholics in worshiping God?
Cardinal Robert Sarah: Vatican II never asked us to reject the past and abandon the Mass of St. Pius V, which spawned many saints, nor discard Latin. But at the same time we must promote the liturgical reform sought by the Council itself. The liturgy is the special place where we meet God face-to-face, bring Him our whole life, our work, and make an offering of all this to his glory. We cannot celebrate the liturgy while taking up arms: carrying on our shoulders weapons of hate, combat, resentment. Jesus Himself said, "Before presenting your offering, first be reconciled to your brother." In this "face-to-face" with God, our heart must be pure, free of all hatred, all rancor. Each person must remove from his heart anything that might cast a shadow on this meeting. This involves respecting everyone’s sensitivity. "
"Is this not precisely what Benedict XVI wanted?
Cardinal Sarah: Yes, this is the meaning of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (July 2007, ed.) Benedict XVI put a lot of energy and hope into this work. Alas, he was not totally successful because people "clung" to their specific rite and mutually excluded each other. In the Church, everyone should be able to celebrate according to his or her own sensitivity. It is one of the conditions of reconciliation. Attention should also be paid to the beauty of the liturgy, its sacredness. The Eucharist is not a "dinner with friends", it is a sacred mystery. If it is celebrated with fervor and beauty, an understanding will certainly be reached. However, we must not forget that it is God who reconciles, and this will take time."
Dear Anonymous at 4:26 am,
DeleteWhen the Pope said these words, did you honestly think that we are supposed to be in communion with YOU!!!! Are you the Archbishop?????? When the Pope said these words, he meant to be in communion with the Bishops, who are the leaders of the Church. And we are in communion with Archbishop Apuron.
ReplyDeleteDear Diana,
Catechism of the Catholic Church: #883
*The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter s successor, as its head.* As such, this college has supreme authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.*
-----------------------
During an audience with the Pope, Bishop Fellay found himself alone with the Pope for a moment. His Excellency seized the opportunity to remind the Pope that he is the Vicar of Christ, possessed of the authority to take immediate measures to end the crisis in the Church on all fronts. The Pope replied thus: “My authority ends at that door.” (Castel Gondolfo August, 2005)
-------------------------
We must all ask, (on all fronts), to what extent are we guilty of reducing the authority of a Pope.
May God have mercy on all of us, ( me included).
Dear Diana, RE:May 5, 2015 at 7:09 PM
ReplyDeletePlease to not avoid answering this very appropriate and important question.
-If the permission exists for the alterations in the NCW Mass in the Statutes of 2008, why would you, or the anonymous NCW poster, not post the excerpts from the 2008 Statutes which confirm this? I, like you and the anonymous NCW poster have the Statutes of 2008; however, I cannot find this permission.
And, in regards to whose duty it is to correct:
-You say "that duty belongs to the Vatican..."
BUT the Vatican TRIED to correct the NCW Mass:
(1) - the letter from Cardinal Arinze on behalf of Pope Benedict in 2005,
(2) - the reminder from Pope Benedict in 2006 to the NCW re the letter of 2005,
(3) - the "approved" Statutes of 2008 which somehow are either not read or perhaps misinterpreted.
(4) - Pope Benedict's refusal of "the NCW's anticipated approval of alterations to the Mass" January 2012.
Redemptionis Sacramentum says in 183. "In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious DUTY INCUMBENT UPON EACH AND EVERY ONE, AND ALL ARE BOUND TO CARRY IT OUT WITHOUT ANY FAVORITISM."
Diana, when when a falsehood is spread on the Internet, should not correction be done on the Internet too?
(You believe this; otherwise, you would not correct Tim and Chuck's misrepresentations!)
Both sides need correction. But, pride blinds. Let us all ask the Lord for the humility to accept correction.
Dear Anonymous at 7:09 pm,,
DeleteIt has already been said numerous times that the NCW has the permission of the Pope to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. If you do not believe this, then simply write a letter of complaint to the Vatican.
Nowhere has the Pope ever corrected Kiko or the NCW. There is nothing in the Pope's speech saying, "Kiko or NCW, you need to STOP celebrating the Eucharist incorrectly." The fact that the Pope ENCOURAGES us to continue to follow the liturgical books, our Statutes, and everything that was approved is not a correction. An encouragement is not a correction. If one were to actually correct a person, they would say "cease and desist".
Thanks for finally writing about >"To the Anti-Neo commenter" <Liked it!
ReplyDelete