"So there are particular and certain circumstances where the Church invokes "infallibility". The catechism is not one of these. Of course, it contains infallible pronouncements, but it also contains much that is not infallible."
First of all, infallibility is the inability to make errors in ALL matters of FAITH and MORALS. Outside of "faith" and "morals", the Pope can make an error. For example, if the Pope were to determine who will win the next presidential election, he can make an error because political elections have nothing to do with "faith" or "morals." It is only in the realm of teaching "faith" and "morals" that he cannot make an error. The entire Catechism of the Catholic Church is a book of "faith" and "morals." There is nothing political or scientific in the Catechism. As a matter of fact, if one were to examine the table of contents in the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church, it shows nothing but "faith" and "morals" (See the weblink below):
I asked the anonymous commenter where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church did he/she find that the Catechism is NOT infallible. And this was his/her response:
AnonymousFebruary 20, 2015 at 4:02 PM
Dear Diana,
your first mistake is to understand that something that is "non-infallible" = error.
Sometimes I wonder how you function at all when you make such basic mistakes of logic. If something is "fallible" it simply means that there is a possibility of "error" - not that it is in fact "error".
your first mistake is to understand that something that is "non-infallible" = error.
Sometimes I wonder how you function at all when you make such basic mistakes of logic. If something is "fallible" it simply means that there is a possibility of "error" - not that it is in fact "error".
So before we even address your question - can you finally understand this (oh so subtle) issue? If not, we're not going to get very far....
In response to this, I stand corrected. Fallible does mean to be able to make an error. The problem, however, is that you are saying that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is prone to error (fallible) when the Church already teaches that the Pope and the teaching Magisterium has infallibility in ALL matters of "faith" and "morals", which is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church consist of. The Catechism is the entire DOCTRINES of the Church regarding "faith" and "morals." In fact, according to the Catechism (the bold is mine):
CCC 2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.
The Anonymous commenter goes on to cite one of the Catechism as being "fallible." According to the Anonymous commenter:
I gave you a couple of examples - the just war; and the death penalty. Lets see what the CCC says about the death penalty:
"2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
Just war and the death penalty are MORAL doctrines, which falls under infallibility according to Church teaching. So, CCC 2267 is an infallible truth. You need to find something in the Catechism that has nothing to do with "faith" or "morals" in order for it to be declared NOT infallible.
There are only two doctrines in the history of the Church that has been declared "infallible" by ex cathedra. Those two doctrines are the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, this does not mean that all other things the Church has taught is NOT infallible. The Incarnation, for example, was never declared in ex cathedra but it is an infallible truth.
Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. By declaring that He is the Truth, He is also saying that He is infallible. Christ cannot make a miskake or error. Christ promised to lead His Church into all truths. The Catechism of the Catholic are her doctrines of faith and morals, which all Catholics are supposed to follow. In other words, there is absolutely no errors or even possibility of errors in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, the anonymous commenter stated (the bold is mine):
There are many, many similar teachings of the Church, that are not considered "infallible." But as Cardinal Ratzinger said, we must take the Catechism as a whole, and treat it as the authoritative utterance of the Magisterium.
Notice how the language leaves the question open to debate?
Being open to debate does not mean that it is "fallible". Furthermore, as you stated: Cardinal Ratzinger said we must take the Catechism as a whole and treat it as the authoritative utterance of the Magisterium. So, why not follow what the former Pope said? Why bother to seek your own authority rather than the authority of the Magisterium who has the charism of infallibility? It is said that the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth; therefore, for a Church who possess the fullness of truth, there could not even be a possibility of error where "faith" and "morals" are concerned.
Why did this subject come up in the first place? Because you made the absurd claim thatcthe NCW directory was infallible because it contained references to the CCC!! Now thats crazy
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:13 pm,
DeleteI did not say anything about the references of the Catechetical Directory. I said that the catechesis in the Directory is based on the teachings of the faith and morals of the Catholic Church.....and was approved by the Holy See. You either trust in what the Congregation of Divine Faith approved along with the Holy See or not.
You were asked "show me where and how Rome apparently "approved" the directory to be "free of errors"?"
Deleteto which you replied:
"The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope and the teaching Mafisterium is infallible in regards to "faith and morals." The Catechetical Directory contains the "catechesis" (church teachings). ALL TEACHINGS of the Church are free of error because the teachings are based on "faith and morals" - the only two things which is infallible in the Church. "
By this you clearly claim that the directory is infallible.
The Holy See approved this directory for publicaton. It did not declare that it was "free from error"
Dear Anonymous at 9:55 pm,
DeleteAnything that has to do with "faith" and "morals" which the Catholic Church teaches is infallible truth. Infallibility is a charism that the Pope and the teaching Magisterium have, so whatever they approve in regards to "faith" and "morals" would be infallible truths. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.
And this is why the NCW obeys and follows the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Statutes of the Way, the Catechetical Directory of the Way (which are all approved by Rome) as well as the oral instructions given to us by the Holy See. We are not like the "Cafeteria Catholics" who only pick and choose what they wish to follow and ignore the rest approved by Rome.
Dear diana, you misrepresent the original comment. The references to the just war, or the death penalty were not as examples of "fallibility", but rather examples of moral subjects that had not been resolved by an infallible pronouncement. Please read the initial comment again. And apologise for the mistake
ReplyDeleteOnce again you get this wrong diana. If somethinf is not pronounced infallibly, it doesn't mean that it is pronounced "fallibly".Only that it has not been pronounced infallibly. A little independent thought is dangerous sometimes
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:30 pm,
DeleteDid you not read my post? According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.
Dear Diana, my original post concluded with this (which for some reason you have chosen to ignore):
ReplyDelete"There are many. many similar teachings of the Church, that are not considered "infallible". But as Cardinal Ratzinger said, we must take the Catechism as a whole, and treat it as the authoritative utterance of the Magisterium.
We don't need to do that for Kiko's books though, even with references to the CCC included. Because they are not authoritative utterances of the Magisterium, and each statement he makes must be considered on its individual merits, and must be justified by recourse to the proper teaching of the Church."
The discussion on "infallibility" began because you claimed that the NCW Directory was "infallible". Do you still maintain this view, dear Diana?
Dear Anonymous at 2:41 pm,
DeleteWhat I find amazing is that people tell the NCW to OBEY the Pope and what is APPROVED in the Statutes of the Way. And now here, we are being told NOT to obey the APPROVED Catechetical Directory. Those are no longer Kiko's books. They now belong to the Catholic Church because it was the Pope who approved it.
"And now here, we are being told NOT to obey the APPROVED Catechetical Directory."
DeleteWho is saying this?
"Those are no longer Kiko's books. hey now belong to the Catholic Church because it was the Pope who approved it. "
You reveal yourself to be more idiotic with every statement you make. These directories contain the transcript of sords spoken by Kiko and Carmen. The Holy See cannot change a transcript, as Kiko's own introduction itself says, so instead they "correct" it with references to the CCC. This does not mean there is no error in Kiko's words, nor does it mean suddenly it is interchangeable with the CCC.
Dear Anonymous at 9:58 pm,
DeleteIt is actually idiotic to reference the Catechism (correct teaching) to an incorrect teaching.. The Vatican is not that stupid. If the Catholic Church can reject books not to be included in the Holy Bible in the fourth century, they can certainly reject teachings that opposes Catholic teaching.
In other words, who says that the Holy See cannot change Kiko and Carmen's statements????? Does not the Pope have the power to bind and loose?? Either Kiko's statement is wrong and is changed. Or Kiko's statements are actually correct, which can be referenced with the correct Catechism in the Catholic Church.
Ok Diana, that's enough. I accuse you of bearing false witness against your neighbor.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, you did not mention the context in which this discussion on "infallibility" arose - namely that you claimed that Kiko's catechetical directory was infallible because it contained references to the CCC.
But more that that, you quote me as going on to "cite one(sic) of the Catechism as being "fallible.""
Now you know that this is a lie.
What I actually said in relation to these examples (death penalty and just war) was the following:
"So, there is much in the CCC that consists of statements that have not been pronounced by the Church as infallible teachings?"
I did not say they were examples of "fallibility" but rather that they were examples of moral subjects that had not been pronounced "infallibly".
You then say "Being open to debate does not mean that it is "fallible"." which implies that I said something along these lines - which I did not.
If you have any integrity at all, in fact if you merely think you have any integrity at all, you must immediately take down the offending post, and apologise
Dear Anonymous at 6:17 pm,
DeleteI said that we need to settle the debate regarding the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Because you specifically stated that there are some things in the Catechism that were not infallible, I asked you to give me one example of it. And you cited CCC 2267.
You asked me to give you one example of where the catechism was in error - because you had no clue what "infallibility" even meant. After I corrected your poor understanding, I gave you an example of something in the catechism that had *not been pronounced infallibly*. And then you dishonestly described this as me citing "one of the Catechism as being "fallible." This is dishonest and you know it. You ought to be ashamed. How many words are wasted in dialogue with you? First you assert things you know nothing about, then you deliberately distort your interlocutors words. Disgraceful
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:02 pm,
DeleteYes, you cited a catechism that you think has not been pronounced "infallibly." You did not know that the infallibility of the Pope also includes all teachings in the matters of faith and morals. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was never pronounced infallibly as the doctrine of the Immaculate conception. Nevertheless, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity it is an infallible truth. Why? Because infallibility covers all matters of "faith" and "morals". I also said, that we need to settle the debate regarding the Catechism of the Catholic Church before moving on. Do you still believe that the Catholic Church who has the fullness of Truth has approved any possibility of errors in "faith" and "morals?"