http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/11/more-errors-in-jungle.html
The next issue they have against the Way is that they think that the NCW worships Kiko Arguello. According to an anonymous poster:
AnonymousNovember 18, 2014 at 11:48 AM
Hmm, the problem with the Way is that to accept it you must essentially believe Kiko. Everything of the NCW is about Kiko - the catechesis and interpretation of the scripture; the music, the prayers, the liturgy, the images/'icons, the moral position, the need to induce the existential moment; the setting, the language, the culture. Everything is Kiko.
To say you follow the NCW is to say "I believe in Kiko".
It is always risky putting your faith in a human being - unless that human being is also Divine. I'm pretty sure that Kiko is not divine (diabolical perhaps?). You end up worshipping the creature rather than the creator, and I don't think that will save you.
To say you follow the NCW is to say "I believe in Kiko".
It is always risky putting your faith in a human being - unless that human being is also Divine. I'm pretty sure that Kiko is not divine (diabolical perhaps?). You end up worshipping the creature rather than the creator, and I don't think that will save you.
Nowhere in any of my posts and comments does it ever say that we worship Kiko Arguello. I am walking in the Way, and the avatar I chose on this blog is Jesus Christ. In the Neocatechumenal Way website, you would see an icon of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Baby Jesus. Also, nowhere in any of Kiko's speech did he ever call the faithful to worship him. Nowhere in any of our celebrations do we even have a photo of Kiko Arguello. Our celebrations of the Word and Eucharist always have the crucifix and the icon of Mary and Baby Jesus.
Our music comes from the Book of Psalms, which is in the Holy Bible. Our interpretation of scripture comes from the Catholic Church. After all, one reason we use the Jerusalem Bible or New Jerusalem Bible is because of its many references and commentary footnotes, which comes from the Catholic Church. The NCW goes by the commentary footnotes to understand scripture better. In this blog site, readers saw me quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Our music comes from the Book of Psalms, which is in the Holy Bible. Our interpretation of scripture comes from the Catholic Church. After all, one reason we use the Jerusalem Bible or New Jerusalem Bible is because of its many references and commentary footnotes, which comes from the Catholic Church. The NCW goes by the commentary footnotes to understand scripture better. In this blog site, readers saw me quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
When Fundamentalist Protestants accuse Catholics of being idol-worshippers, it is because they see us bowing to the statues and icons. But what is the reason for other Catholics to call us idol-worshippers? Where did this false idea of worshipping Kiko come from?
This anonymous poster stated: "To say you follow the NCW is to say "I believe in Kiko." So, if a Catholic says he follows the Knights of Columbus, does this mean he believes in Michael J. McGivney (the founder of the Knights of Columbus) rather than Jesus Christ?
"So, if a Catholic says he follows the Knights of Columbus, does this mean he believes in Michael J. McGivney (the founder of the Knights of Columbus) rather than Jesus Christ?"
ReplyDeleteDid Michael J McGivney write all the music; design the buildings, liturgical items, chairs; give his own scriptural interpretations, sometimes contrary to that of the Magisterium; copy all the pictures; construct his own catechism; make the centre of his ministry his own story?
You know you've really "made it" when you're famous by a single name only, huh? If he was simply known as "Michael" there might be some comparison
Dear Anonymous at 3:47 pm,
DeleteMany of the songs do not belong to Kiko. They came from the Book of Pslams . As for the scriptural interpretations all that came from the commentary footnotes of the Jerusalem Bible or New Jerusalem Bible. The paintings are paintings of Jesus, Mary, and the Apostles. What is so offensive about those paintings? Why are these paintings so offensive simply because they come from one person. Okay.....so God gave Kiko artistic talent in art. Do you also find the paintings in your Church offensive just because they all came from one vendor?
The jungle cannot survive outside itself. The environment of hate; confusion; misinformation is nurtured and fed with people who themselves live within a life justified by their own reasoning....man's reasoning...rohrs reasoning....chucks reasoning.
ReplyDeleteThey cannot accept the immensity of Gods love for all people; let alone the people who live and struggle within this love. Their Next Issue Against The NCW; why is this a issue? If it is not the NCW what then will their next issue be? Waste of time as I rather spent time praying for them then worrying about their "next issue".
NO Diana they follow Tim Rohr and the rest. I was told mongmong Youth Parish are taught that we don't belong to the Catholic Church and we don't belong to Christ but Kiko Arguello. John Toves an advocate of same sex marriages in San Fran and who got kicked out innthe seminary. Yes also harbor Gay Activist.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the exclusiveness of the NCW. It is all about NCW and never mind those who do not belong or a part of NCW. All the songs have been compose by KIko using the psalms and you cannot alter the strumming, the rhythm of the music, even the translation in English has to be in accordance with the dictates of the Itinerant even though it is completely awkward and losses its meaning and no one talks in Italian English in the islands. It is all about uniformity, everything has to be photocopied, the same from the set of the place to the music, the introductions or monitions. You cannot divert, question or adapt to the local culture. Why don't the NCW Guam translate the songs in in Chamorro all of them.
ReplyDeletewhy does every seminarian or itenerant, catechist want to have the rosary tied on the side of the belt like KIko.?
Dear Isais,
DeleteFor your information, the song "He Rose from Death" has been translated in Chamorro. The problem is Chamorro is a dying language. Not many people can speak it. As you can see on the internet, however, the NCW.sing the songs in Spanish, Italian, and even in Lebanese.
Dear D,
DeleteThe Language is being revived. If it a dying language, then why are the seminarians taking or rather learning the language? Then again, it wouldn't matter to you because you probably do t speak it. Oh yah, I forgot you come from the Jewish lineage!
Dear Anonymous at 9:22 pm,
DeleteThe seminarians are learning mostly English because that is the main language spoken in Guam. The older people know fluent Chamorro. This is not true for many young people. The youths speak mostly English. And even in the regular Mass, English is the spoken language.
Because we are a 'catholic' church, this means that the expression of faith and song from different countries are shared in a universal way. For example, 'Kumbaya, my Lord' is African, many remember singing this in the 1960's, 'De Colores' is from Spain and used by the Cursillios, 'Pan de vida' is used all over the USA, even 'One Eagles Wings' by the Jesuits of the USA was translated into Polish, even Kiko's 'Resucito' made it to the Breaking Bread Book several years ago. 'Be Not Afraid' is sung in Chamorro. Many songs of the Way are translated into Chamorro, Tagalog. Kiribati, Japanese, Korean etc. EVEN the traditional Chamorro songs we sing are from Spain and Mexico and Italy: "O Maria nananmago', 'Katoliko', 'Umageftuna' and many other songs were brought here by the missionaries. Even in Saipan, they use many German Christmas hymns translated into Chamorro. So, what's the problem? What we think are 'Chamorro' hymns actually came from elsewhere, or were influenced by outsiders. Some are unique to Guam and some have their origins in Europe. Even how we sing Chamorro hymns here in Guam are sung differently in Saipan and Rota. Even here in Guam there are Hagatna Styles and Malesso Styles of singing the same song. So, the argument that we cannot divert from the "Local Culture" does not hold water and I hereby be-bunk it. As in every other country in the world, the local style is always influenced by the outside influences. Without these influences, we will not grow in flavor and diversity. The 'local' style of any music thrives on the influence from other places and other styles - that's the nature of music - it comes alive through creativity. So, you jungle folks, looks like you need some lessons in culture.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you incorporate other songs, church hymns, in the community? and vice versa?
ReplyDeleteDear Isaias,
DeleteI could also ask you why the regular Mass do not incorporate the NCW songs or even the songs of the Charismatic Catholics. Do you not see how ridiculous your reasons are for hating us......all because of the songs of praise that we give to God?
We cannot incorporate your songs in our masses. Did you forget that each level has there own songs. Level 1 cannot sing songs from level two. Now why is that? In a regular mass we sing the songs regardless of our levels.
DeleteOne thing I heard is that NeoCats never sing a Christmas carol, not even on Christmas Eve! Their kids grow up without learning any of these beautiful tunes. Why? Because every single song they do in the NeoCat must be of Kiko! No kidding, everything must be 100% of Kiko! They collect all the talented music players in the group and give them Kiko training every week. Their singers compete with each other who can imitate Kiko better... Gosh what is this if not idolizing the man and worshiping his products? It is a question, Diana, please, respond honestly.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:21 pm,
DeleteThe regular Mass also does not incorporate the songs from the Catholic Charismatics. Level 1 cannot sing Level 2 simply because they have not been taught it yet. It is the same of every choir.
We are not placed in levels Diana. You people are. You go down the ladder, then into the water of Baptism and then climb the other side of the ladder again.
DeleteDear voice of faith,
DeleteThat is propaganda you are hearing. The youths in my community go out Christmas caroling with the parish youths.
Dear Anonymous at 6:10 am,
DeleteOne cannot sing songs unless they are taught how to sing it. It is the same in a parish choir. You need to know how to sing the songs and practice them. A lot of times, we start with the most common ones first like "Mary Little Mary."
You have songs strictly sung for each level of the ladder. the point is that you cannot sing songs from other levels because you are not qualified to do so....you have not reached that plateau.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:01 am,
DeleteAnd why is this a problem for you? Our cantors do not find this a problem, so why has it become your problem? In a regular choir, steps are also taken before members of the choir can sing particular songs. In the parish, the leader usually brings the choir together for practice before singing a new song as well. They also cannot sing songs they have not yet practiced.
voice-of-faithNovember 19, 2014 at 1:00 AM How do you know if the WAY community sing or does not sing Christmas carol? Which you never on one community. This slander what your doing, searching google ain't going to help.
DeleteI do not hate the community per se, i am sorry for you and the way you go about defending yourself because i see in you who i was, all self-righteous, know-all NCW guy.
DeleteIf I were your catechist, i will not let you pass 2nd scrutiny more so Initiation To Prayer, with your attitude towards those who do not think like you.
I do not know why Pius, Anna let you pass. It is too convenient.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteIt was never my intention to hurt you in any way, and I apologize if you feel hurt. I do not know who led you to believe that you are part of the Catholic Church. You say that you are not Roman Catholic, but Catholic. There is only one Catholic Church. And that one Catholic Church includes the Roman-rite and Eastern-rite Church. Nowhere is the Episcopal church part of that.
There are actually nine rites in the Roman family of liturgical rites. The Anglican rite is among those nine rites, but it is only for former Anglicans and Episcopal clergy (See the weblink below): Any Anglican or Episcopalian who have not returned are not considered "Catholic." They are Protestant Christians only because they are not in communion with the Holy See. These Anglicans (like yourself) are still our brothers and sisters in Christ despite that they are non-Catholics.
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
Isaias - Is a blessing in the sky your not my catechist because I've been in the community for nearly 3 decades. That explain you had a fall out from your catechist team because it shows in your post that you have morbid judgement rather with love. A catechist suppose to love and show compassion to their cathecumen but not as authoritarian figure but to provide spiritual nourishment. You falsely claim against the NCW but for being away this long it really show what happen. You failed to forgive and believe. That you don't need to explain your end because it appear on this blog what you failed to be in communion. I pray for you because what your doing is a mortal sin. Why? You know why? I pray for you to enlighten your heart.
DeleteWell the gospel for this Sunday sums it all, God is not going to ask if you were RC, Anglican, Protestant, Neo, Non- Neo, rich or poor., But
Deletewhat soever you do to the least of my brothers and sister (poor, outsiders,) you do unto me.
signed: Rebel Jesus
Really Isaias? You signed your name as "Jesus"?
DeleteOKAY..........let us summarize the dialogue that we have been having under this thread. It appears that the music that we sing in the Way is a problem for the jungle folks. The question is why is it a problem???
ReplyDelete1) What is it about our music that you find offensive? There are no vulgar words in it. Most of the music we sing came from the Book of Psalms. Kiko was also able to get together a group of talented musicians and form an orchestra belonging to the Way. There are also no vulgar words sung by the NCW orchestra. So, why do you find the NCW music so offensive?
2) Why are you IMPOSING on us to sing other songs? Are you the founder of the Way? Why should we NOT sing the songs sung by Kiko? After all, he is the founder. Do his songs have vulgarity in it? What exactly are the offensive words do you find in the lyrics? These are songs we have song: Mary, Little Mary. I Lift Up my Eyes To the Mouthain, I Hope, I Hope in the Lord. Here Comes the Lord, Oh God, My God. So, what are the lyrics in those songs do you find so offensive that you strongly feel that you should IMPOSE upon us to sing other songs?
3) Why do you IMPOSE on us to sing other songs when you do not even hear the songs we sing anyway? We sing songs of praise and thanksgiving and you do not hear these songs because the jungle folks like Tim Rohr and Chuck White do not attend our celebrations anyway. So, why are they complaining about songs they do not even hear anyway?
D, did I say anything about your songs being offensive? All I asked was why you are not allowed to sing songs from other levels? Don't get all riled up!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:25 am,
DeleteI already answered that question. We do not sing songs from the other levels because we have not practiced those songs yet. Someone has to show the lead cantor how the song goes and then the lead cantor calls a practice session with the other cantors. Then they bring it down to our level. Songs are considered twice a prayer, and they are just as important in the Eucharist. We want to make sure that the songs are sung properly. After all, we take the Eucharist and all celebrations seriously and reverently.
Also, under this thread it was imposed on us to sing songs that are sung in the regular mass? 'why? Is our songs that offensive?
Di, according to a previous post, you don't sing step songs because you are not mature enough!
DeleteAnonymousJune 16, 2014 at 6:37 PM
Wait til you mature a lil further there is more song that will make you weep. You have not learn the other mirian songs.
Reply
Replies
DianaJune 16, 2014 at 6:54 PM
Dear Anonymous at 6:37 p.m.,
Yes, I was told that there are certain songs that we cannot sing yet because they are step songs. I love music, and I enjoy singing the songs of the Neocatechumenal Way. Another favorite song I like is "Go and Announce to My Brothers."
Dear Anonymous at 9:38 am,
DeleteAs long as these songs are not taught to us, how can we sing it? As I said, we cannot sing songs from other levels until we are taught those songs. I never said that we are not mature to learn it. The catechists usually determines whether the community is READY for the next step....such as first scrutiny or second scrutiny.
When the catechists decides that the community is ready to go into the first scrutiny, then whatever songs are in the first scrutiny will be taught to us. After it is taught to us, then we can sing it properly. It is called "step songs" because it is found in either the step of the first scrutiny or second scrutiny. The head cantor does not say that we cannot sing a song because we are not mature enough. We cannot sing the song because it has not been taught to us YET.
What the anonymous poster was telling me here is to wait until we get OLDER......meaning go into an older step, then we will learn other songs that are found in that step. He is certainly not telling me that I cannot learn these songs because I am not mature enough.
Isaias Ginson November 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM - I'm not sure why this individual even care to comment on these Catholic Issues in Guam?
ReplyDeleteThis individual who happen to be a former Seminarian in the Way and Itinerant who had a fall out with his cathechist and failed to have a communion with his "Home" Catholic Church and left the Church to join the Episcopalian/Presbyterian Church as a Priest. Not only you slander the whole Catholic Church, you have disobeyed! Bottom line Isias you committed an APOSTASY! Your Lukewarm faith deceive the poor souls in the Jungle. What erks me they even called you Father which you left the Catholic Church. Please stop your slander and repent! Your jumping on a bandwagon with a hate blog that your not even a 100% sure if you support it. Is your father Jesus Christ or Satanas? If you answer Christ, I don't think so. Your playing a game that will lead to you paying a big price. This is something for you to discern seriously.
Diana this man is fake and malice! This proof Tim Rohr,Freenchie,Chuck White, John Toves, Janet B and the rest harbor Gay Activist and Malice people. LASTLY Jungle Watch followers please don't call Isias "FATHER" he is not a priest of the Catholic Church but St.John. Shows who you support who is not even in support of our current Pope and our Catholic Church
La Paz
I am Isaias Ginson, priest of the Episcopal Church. I am here in the blog both Jungle and Diana to share my observations about the NCW since it has been a big deal in my past as catechist, itenerant, seminarian of RMS NJ, itenerant in South Korea, cantor of communities.
DeleteI left the NCW because of a lot misguidance from catechist who have conflicting ways of dealing with people in the community particularly my self.
I support the Jungle because it is the same old issues that i have encountered while in the NCW.
Now that i have distanced my self from the NCW, i have a better picture of what happens or is happening and of what assistance i can do to help those who are having issues with the NCW.
El Camino if you have a problem of me spilling out the ARKANA come talk to me in person. I am at St. John's and I AM A PREIST OF CHRIST'S ONE, HOILY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteThe Episcopal church is NOT a part of the Catholic Church. You are no longer Catholic. You left the NCW and joined a church that agrees with your doctrine of homosexuality and same sex marriage. You come here wanting to change the views of the NCW on their concept of family and marriage. You go to jungle and do not even bother to bring up these issues there. Why? Because Tim Rohr and his followers are much more conservative than we are, and one can see that by the fact that they discriminate certain Christian music other than their own.
I am not Roman Catholic...and i belong to Christ's ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC CHURCH. Your attitude towards non Romans Diana, Edivaldo, is typical of NCW core doctrines, INTOLERANCE, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN ecumenism and look kown on Inter-faith dialogue. I have yet to see NCW participate in the islands Inter faith Thanksgiving service/prayer. Why? because of your superior attitude and you look down on people who are different from you, who do not think like you, who do not sing songs like yours.
DeleteErnie said that I am an apostate (nobody uses that word anymore), they call Jesus blasphemer, glutton and drunkard, I think I am in good company and by the way I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE REBEL JESUS.
Dear Isaias,
DeleteThe truth is you do not belong to Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Your church is the Episcopal church. Christ created only one Church, and it is not the Episcopal church, which you now belong to. Your church did not exist in the first century and is not even an apostolic Church.
It is rather ironic that the apologists for the NCW can laud and idolise the Jewish people who also "do not belong to Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church", and yet are so severe with Isaias, who by his own admission is where he is due in no small part to the poor treatment endured in the NCW.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:26 am,
DeleteI do not idolize the Jewish people. I recognize that Christianity came from Judaism, which explains the Jewish roots and heritage of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Dina, have you heard of the Church of England, Anglican church, one member of a lower community became a priest in Rome RMS and in 2007 even invited me to come back because Rome has opened the doors for Anglican priests to comer back. But with your condescending attitude on people who do not look like you, think like you, eat like you, speak like you, I would rather make it my goal to side with the Rebel Jesus.
DeleteEpiscopal Church, Anglican Church, Church of England are the same, check your sources before you make any judgements Diana (Edivaldo).
DeleteDear Isaias,
DeleteEpicopalians or Anglicans who have RETURNED to the Catholic Church are called "Catholics." If they have not returned, they are NOT Catholics. You are not Catholic.
In your case, Isaias, you left the Catholic Church to become a priest in the Episcopal Church, which is not in communion with Rome. The reason they invited you to come back is because the Episcopal Church is not in communion with Rome. They are not Catholics. When an Anglican returns to Rome, they are no longer called Anglicans. They care called "Catholics."
DeleteIsais your in error your founder is King who want it to remarry and the Pope advise him no and end up murdering Saint Thomas Moore. The part of misguided, being a lil mature in faith, evidently you had failed to CONVERT. A Christian should accept to be in communion, it's Matthew 18:15-16 15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
DeleteI do have a problem with you because you have a great "darkness" in your heart. Surprisingly Tim Rohr did not boot you out because your a PROTESTANT. Bottom-line you are not Catholic because your founder does not recognize the POPE and does not honor the Blessed Mother like we do. The Neocatechumenal Way mission is to bring back people that are baptist and not baptist within the Catholic Church. You know for a fact that we do not gain any money on this mission but a LABOR of love for the other. Your guidance has no bearing and no foundation and pointless.
El Camino, it is not important for me to be part of the Church. Refer to your Catechesis, 4th day.
DeleteYou do not have to belong to the RC to be part of the people of God. I never said i was Roman Catholic...ROMAN catholic.You were the one insisting. I am Anglican Catholic. Got it. And i am proud to be one. Maybe your obsession is to be SALT, LIGHT, LEAVEN. I am ok if i am ENlIGHTENED, SALTED, and LEAVEN.
It is people like you who talk and talk and never walk your talk.
El Camino (Lazarus) i order you to come out from your tomb, do not hide, show yourself and I can help unbound you. Remember the catechesis or maybe you haven't reach that stage yet.
Diana, you have no right to dismiss Isaias' point of view because of his denomination. The truth of the Lord knows no denomination! Even if we believe that the correct teaching is coming from the Catholic Magisterium, we have to acknowledge that other denominations may also be led by the Holy Spirit. We all emrace the same Lord! Disprove what Isaias is saying if you can! Try to find to reason and contrast ideas, rather than simply dismiss them without discernment. This is the Christian way to do!
DeleteDear Isaias,
DeleteThe only Anglican priest on Guam who returned to the Catholic Church was Father Richard Rojas. He was ordained by Archbishop Apuron, so he is Catholic. If you became a priest in the Episcopal Church and then decided to return to the Catholic Church, you would have to be ordained into the Catholic Church like Father Richard Rojas. See the weblink below of Anglican priests returning to the Catholic Church.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MARPRIE.HTM
On the other hand, when you left the Catholic seminary and then entered the Episcopal Church to become a priest, then you are not Catholic. You are still an Episcopalian priest especially since you were never ordained by the Archbishop. ONLY Anglicans returning to the Catholic Church are Catholics, and are allowed to practice the Anglican rite approved by the Holy See.
I am so sorry, Isaias, but you did not just leave the NCW. You left the entire Catholic Church when you joined the Episcopal Church. The Anglicans who returned to the Catholic Church were those who stood against women's ordination and gay marriage. That was the main reason they returned. The Episcopal Church on Guam is not Catholic. Even St. John's school is not Catholic.
Dear voice of faith,
DeleteI am not dismissing Isaias' point of view. I am correcting his point of view. He says he is Catholic, and I am saying that he is not Catholic. I respect the Christian denominations and I know that they can also be led by the Holy Spirit. But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether he is part of the Catholic Church or not. Isaias in NOT part of the Catholic Church because he is a priest of a church that is not in communion with the Pope.
voice-of-faithNovember 20, 2014 at 4:08 PM - uh no, the Anglican still honor GAY,same sex marriages and women clergy. Yet your idea the NCW is heretic but a guy who soak in a heretical Church is okay? Don't you think that is hypocritical?
DeleteHa! make up your mind, you would rather support a Protestant Church who murdered a Saint? Rather a fruit from the Catholic Church (VaticanII)? It does not make any sense but prove you HATE the Neocathechumenal Way who are in the CATHOLIC Church. Your opinion is not worth to dialogue with.
Diana, this is what Isaias said. Please do not act as if you don't know:
Delete"The problem is the exclusiveness of the NCW. It is all about NCW and never mind those who do not belong or a part of NCW."
How about exclusiveness, dear Diana?!
Dear voice of faith,
DeleteIsaias was once Catholic, then he left to the Episcopal church. We did not exclude him. It was his choice to leave the Catholic Church altogether. The NCW is not for everyone, but that does not mean you have to leave the Catholic Church and go to another religion.
Those who are in the Knights of Columbus, the Legion of Mary, the Couples of Christ, and all who attend the regular Mass, etc. are part of the Catholic Church just as we are. A person can always join any of those organization, but leaving the Catholic Church is a different story. When you leave the Catholic Church, you excluded yourself from the Catholic Church.
Dear El Camino at 4:46 pm,
DeleteNone of the Christian churches today are excommunicated. We consider them our brothers in Christ. It was the Protestants in the Reformation who were excommunicated. Even King Henry VIII and the Archbishop of Canterberry at that time were excommunicated. This excommunication does not extend to their descendants. Their teachings are definitely in error (such as women's ordination, same sex marriage, etc), but they're still our Christian brothers in that they believe in Jesus Christ. I would not be too hard on the members of Christian churches even if their ancestors murdered a saint. Our Catholic ancestors were also no better.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
ReplyDelete1157 "Song and music fulfill their function as signs in a manner all the more significant when they are "more closely connected . . . with the liturgical action," according to three principal criteria: beauty expressive of prayer, the unanimous participation of the assembly at the designated moments, and the solemn character of the celebration. In this way they participate in the purpose of the liturgical words and actions: the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful: How I wept, deeply moved by your hymns, songs, and the voices that echoed through your Church! What emotion I experienced in them! Those sounds flowed into my ears distilling the truth in my heart. A feeling of devotion surged within me, and tears streamed down my face - tears that did me good."
It is a FACT that in the WAY, singing is a vital part of prayer and liturgy. We are taught to SING because it is, as Vatican II teaches, a way of FULL and ACTIVE participation. Now, the jungle folks need to understand that there is no LAW that says we cannot sing the songs of the WAY in the liturgy of the Church. There is no law that says we must use the songs of the missalettes in the liturgy. The songs that the Church suggests for us to use are those found in the Roman Missal and other books such as the Roman Pontifical. It uses Gregorian and plain chant styes. It contains music that the priest may use. For example the prefaces, the reproaches for good friday, the chants for the parts of the mass etc.
The songs of the Way are based mostly in scripture as well as other texts used in the liturgy such as the litanies and selected songs for the triduum. The Way cannot be forced to stop using these songs. They form part of the richness of the liturgy of the church. Music in the liturgy is not static and fossilized as some would like to have it. Music expresses the profound effect which the grace of God has poured into the heart of the faithful through the efficacy of the sacraments. The songs of the Way are a valid and acceptable representation of what the Church teaches regarding songs in the liturgy. To unjustly impose a prohibition of the songs of the Way goes against the spirit and definition of liturgy as an action of Christ and the Church.
Dear Anon at 10.45.
DeleteWhy do the songs have to have been written by Kiko. Is he the only composer capable of writing songs for worship? The problem is not so much whether the songs are appropriate or nor (although the Dayenu and Shema are suspect), but rather why Kiko has the ususal monopoly. It is just more proof that the NCW is a cult of personality and does not reflect the richness and diversity of the Catholic faith.
Dear Anonymous at 2:40 pm,
DeleteThe songs we sing in our celebrations did not come from Kiko. Many of them are from the Book of Psalms. Some are from the Gospels. Kiko created the melody, but the words were already written down by King David in the Book of Psalms.
It does reflect the diversity and richness of the Catholic faith. In this blog site, I have posted songs from the Neocatechumenal Way, the Catholic Charismatic a Renewal, and songs sung in the regular Mass. I do not discriminate any songs sung in the Catholic Church. All are beautiful songs expressing praise, thanksgiving, and worship to God. The question is why do you jungle folk show discrimination........and all because of a song??? Do you not think that is a petty thing to use for hating us?
"Do you not think that is a petty thing to use for hating us?
DeleteFirst of all, I do not hate you.
Secondly, I am not from the Jungle. I am not even from Guam.
This is not about whether the songs are nice, or whether you have played "charismatic" music on this site. The fact is that Kiko is the author of all the songs sung in the Way. Some are based on the Psalms but still with Kiko's particular interpretation and style. It has to be Kiko, doesn't it? Why should all the melodies be from Kiko? I personally know some very talented musicians in the Way - actually far more talented than Kiko. But can you imagine the uproar if such a member of the Way was to propose that you sing something else (equally "aesthetic" and appropriate)? It just wouldn't happen would it?
Same goes for everything in the Way. It is not a reflection of the nature and traditions of the Catholic Church, but rather a reflection of Kiko and his preferences. If you can't see this, then you are really stuck and I pity you. There is no other example of this sort of fanaticism anywhere else in the Catholic Church - but you think its perfectly fine and normal!
Have a look around you. How many of your men grow Kiko's beard, wear Kiko's black clothes and the Kiko/gennarini scarf? Its just so pathetic. And all the time this is going on you speak as if this is holy, prophetic and the characteristic of the future Church. Scary is what it really is.
Dear Anonymous at 3:46 pm,
DeleteIf you do not hate us as you claimed, then why did you call us a "cult"?
Secondly, you did not read what I wrote. You stated that Kiko was the author of those songs. How can he be the author of those songs when he never wrote them. Many of those songs existed thousands of years before Christ came incarnated as a man. Those songs were composed by David. Kiko did not put any interpretation in those songs because they were sung as they were written in the Book of Psalms.
In the third place, someone already pointed out that there is no LAW saying that we should sing the songs in the regular Mass, so why are you IMPOSING your law on us. You are not from the jungle or from Guam. Apparently, you are also not in the Way. Why is it that the Non- neons feel that they should IMPOSE their man-made law on us?
And for your information, none of the men in my community have a beard. I live on Guam, and having a beard in our climate can be uncomfortable. They also do not wear a scarf. However, many of them do wear a tie to the Eucharist without the suit.
I did not call you a cult. I called the NCW a "cult of personality" because it is. See "Ernie's" comments if you need proof.
DeleteI repeat, I don't hate you. In fact I don't hate anyone frankly. I am bothered that you are proud of something that distorts the faith, but I don't hate you "Diana".
Secondly, I did read what you wrote. But that does not change the fact that it is only those songs composed by Kiko (albeit based oh scripture in many cases) that are sung in the NCW. This is fanatical, because there are plenty of other equally valid and no doubt appropriate songs. Or at the very least, there are many other people equally able to compose the music. But this is prohibited. In fact, not only do you sing Kiko's songs, you learn to sing them as Kiko does, including, in one bizarre example, a cantor actually included the "clearing of the throat" that Kiko did in the original recording that he learnt it from!
This isn't about Law. This is about reason. The fact of Kiko's monopoly on all things in the NCW should indicate to you that you are dealing with something quite different to the Catholic Church, where freedom is valued, artistic expression is not exclusive, and the use of your God-given intelligence and conscience is encouraged. Not so in the NCW it seems.
you ask "Why is it that the Non- neons feel that they should IMPOSE their man-made law on us"
I do not wish to impose anything on you. I would prefer that you come to your senses and compare what happens in the Church with what happens in the NCW. You have been told "the Church is wrong" (eg "Ernie" saying that Kiko is restoring the Church from the mistakes of Trent), and the NCW is right. This is dangerous.
Perhaps your men are not so Kiko-hairy so instead, reflect on the language in the NCW. Do you find that members begin to sound very much like each other, and ultimately like Kiko. Do you find catechists speaking about "brush-strokes"? Do you hear a certain inflection - an accent almost that is characteristic of the NCW? Think about it.
Dear Anonymous at 4:43 pm,
DeleteYou based all this because you hear one cantor clear his throat? I have heard cantors made errors when they are up there. A few of them apologized and ended up starting over. One person I know even sneezed while he sang and ended up starting over. Did Kiko also sneeze?
If Ernie said that Kiko is restoring the Church from the mistakes of Trent, then I would disagree with that. What I do agree with is that Church MEMBERS have made mistakes since the Council of Trent and these mistakes needed to be addressed and corrected. The selling of indulgences by some priests, for example, needed to be corrected. It was this kind of corruption by church members that brought about the Protestant Reformation. The sexual abuse scandal done by some clergy also needed to be corrected. These priests who have committed criminal acts do not represent the entire Catholic Church. This is why we say the Catholic Church is holy; however, her members are NOT holy.
Anonymous, it does not matter "how" people speak or whether they have an accent or not. It does not matter whether they have a beard or how they dress. There are photos of people from the Neocatechumenal Way from different countries, and some of them have beards while many do not. Tell me.....how does one know if these men are trying to look like Kiko? Did they actually come out and say it or did they read their minds?
The important thing is do they follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church? When my community started doing theme, we were encouraged to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is even in our Statutes. According to our Statutes (page 8):
§ 4. In order to enter more deeply into the Scriptures “with the mind and the heart of the Church”,40 the neocatechumens make use, above all, of the writings of the Fathers, of the documents of the Magisterium, specially the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and of works of spiritual writers.41
When my community started doing theme, we read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the writings of the Church fathers. We also had to look up documents on the Council of Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II. This is something that regular parishioners do not do in the regular Mass.
By the way, you stated: "You have been told "the Church is wrong" (eg "Ernie" saying that Kiko is restoring the Church from the mistakes of Trent), and the NCW is right. This is dangerous."
DeleteI went back to check if in fact Ernie had made such statement. This is what he actually stated:
"Now, in our time, Kiko is returning to the way we had worshiped God before Trent."
You can find Ernie's statement in the following weblink: In no way is Ernie saying that Trent made mistakes. So, you misunderstood what Ernie said. The Council of Trent made no mistakes.
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-dialogue-of-jungle.html?showComment=1416360886050#c9018759355953542717
Why are you looking up these documents, unless you want to find a flaw!
DeleteDiana - Of course one would see that the NCW is a cult based on its own definition:
DeleteCULT: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous.
Even more so that the founder Kiko has a monopoly on all things in the NCW....Double-Whammy!!
PLEASE.....open your eyes and come to your senses!
Dear Anonymous at 6:30 pm,
DeleteWe look them up because our approved Statutes said that we should, and we follow our Statutes. Why are you NOT studying them?
Dear Anonymous at 8:50 pm,
DeleteThe fact that the Pope accepts us shows that we are indeed part of a larger and accepted religion. It is only you who do not accept us. Our beliefs are in line with the Catholic Church. Your beliefs are much more dangerous because it is based on stereotype and prejudice. It is no different than those who say that men who wear beards are Muslim terrorists.
Clearing throats? Sporting a beard like Kiko? Wearing a rosary on the waist like Kiko? Singing like Kiko? Have these people who complain about the minor issues concerning certain actions of some members of the Way reduced themselves to such levels of mediocrity that it is downright silly to even address their myopic attitude?
ReplyDeleteThere are youth who are living in the hell of drug addiction and suicide; there are families on the brink of destruction; there are mothers contemplating abortion; there are people who are looking for Jesus Christ and all the grumblers do is complain about how a cantor strums his guitar? Can we not just focus our energy on bringing the message of salvation to the people who are suffering. Do we not see that there are people who have lost hope in God? Instead of pointing fingers at each other, can't we all just point our attention to God?
God has given us the light of truth, we therefore have the duty to bring this light to a world that is suffering from the lies of the Evil One.
I have been singing in my parish choir for 18 years and I have been director for atleast 10 years. In all my training, experience and self research, I do not find anything wrong with the melodies composed by Kiko and used in the NCW. The melodies are common from song to song that it becomes familiar and quite easy to follow. This is why it is a common sight to be in celebration and hear toddlers and even elders singing. There are no missals or copies passed out so it is all based on memory.
ReplyDeleteThe NCW is achieving something that is rare in our parish music ministries, more so what most choirs have tried to pull off for so many years, to get the church to sing. Some parishes have even tried using projectors to no avail. If one thinks that kiko has too much control over the music in the NCW, then they dont know the problems that come with having too much selection, imagine going to a local parish and hearing Lion Kings Circle of Life for offertory.
Dear Anonymous at 11:54 am.
DeleteDavid was the one who wrote all the songs. All the songs that the Jewish people sang of God came from David.
There is no law saying that we have to sing other songs. So, why are you imposing your law on us?
So now everything is about David. David composed the song, ergo david danced around the ark of the covenant ergo NCW does likewise!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:52 pm,
DeleteWhy do you keep changing the subject??? First you assume that Antoine said that using Kiko-only songs is the only alternative to the Lion King? Nothing like that was ever said in her post.
Then you stated to give one example of where in the history of the Church did one person ever wrote his own song for the Church. I gave you that example. David was the one who wrote the book of Psalms, which the Israelies used as their songs in their worship to God, but they never worship David.
Diana, this shows the kind of hatred that JW has. I can't even think of how anyone can hope for another person to die.
ReplyDeleteAgnesNovember 20, 2014 at 4:50 PM
Mary 3:40 p.m., Kiko better hurry up. He's 75 years old. I'm hoping he is called to his "heavenly reward" before long. Hopefully, his cult will fizzle out once he's out of the picture. And hopefully Rome will take what's left of the NCW after his demise and reform and de-fang it.